The Midrange is Everything (nearly).

[walpurgis]

You just cannot have a decent sound if your system falls down in the midrange! The natural presentation of voices goes out of the window, especially with female vocals. Instruments sound thick and 'foggy' and the bulk of positioning and ambient information is compromised.

All links in the chain are important, but speakers are a major culprit in this area.

For example, (if you're talking 'classic' or 'vintage' speakers) Quad ESL 57 and Tannoy Monitor Golds. They are not the world's greatest at everything, but through the mid they can be heaven, but, bung on a pair of Celestion Ditton 25s, nice as poor old things are, the whole plot is lost, as the midrange is blurred and thick due to the 12" driver trying to reach up to a pair of tweeters being asked to play at being midrange drivers.

There are many other examples like this, and to me a poor showing through the midrange just spoils the whole presentation.

[Ninanina]

Had a pair of Quad 57's years ago

I loved them to bits

If I had the room I would get another set in a heart beat!

[synsei]

I wouldn't disagree with you there Geoff, which is possibly why I like the DM2's as much as I do for their midrange performance is sublime... :)

[Firebottle]

Have to agree about the midrange Geoff :)

Bev, just raise the ceiling a bit to make room for some '57s :mental:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/ESL57.jpg

:cool: Alan

[johnwhit]

I'd have to agree with you there, the trouble is my 601 S3's only really come alive at higher volumes:rolleyes: unlike my old Celestions which played well at lower settings but lost their grip if driven hard:doh:

John

[wiicrackpot]

You just cannot have a decent sound if your system falls down in the midrange! The natural presentation of voices goes out of the window, especially with female vocals. Instruments sound thick and 'foggy' and the bulk of positioning and ambient information is compromised.

All links in the chain are important, but speakers are a major culprit in this area.

There are many other examples like this, and to me a poor showing through the midrange just spoils the whole presentation.
+1 Geoff,

Thats what endeared me to the SHL5, i still remember the 1st time i heard them,
the mids just stop me dead in my tracks and what i judge all comers on, a well sorted pair of ESL 57 had that magic as well.

[southall-1998]

+1 Geoff,

Thats what endeared me to the SHL5, i still remember the 1st time i heard them,
the mids just stop me dead in my tracks and what i judge all comers on, a well sorted pair of ESL 57 had that magic as well.

I recall in my father being interested in those SHL5 back in 2010. Shame the old dude didn't buy them from you!

[wiicrackpot]

He should have Shane, £1,200 for the loveliest unmarked Tiger Ebony, needs must as i was desperate, wolves were at my door. :(

[Marco]

For example, (if you're talking 'classic' or 'vintage' speakers) Quad ESL 57 and Tannoy Monitor Golds. They are not the world's greatest at everything, but through the mid they can be heaven, but, bung on a pair of Celestion Ditton 25s, nice as poor old things are, the whole plot is lost, as the midrange is blurred and thick due to the 12" driver trying to reach up to a pair of tweeters being asked to play at being midrange drivers.


Hi Geoff,

Is the above a particular trait of the 25s? I've not heard those. It certainly doesn't apply with 66s - that's for sure! :nono:

Agreed on the accurate reproduction of midrange frequencies being vital to recorded music sounding lifelike on a hi-fi system, and yes, DC Tannoys, particularly vintage ones, do this very well - almost as well as 'statics :)

Marco.

[Tim]

Ah, the SHL5 midrange - and some people wonder why I love female vocal so much ;)

[walpurgis]

Is the above a particular trait of the 25s? Marco.

As was quite common in the sixties and seventies, many loudspeakers were designed with a large bass driver, say 10" or even 12" crossing over to a tweeter at maybe 2 to 3 kHz.

The Ditton 25 was a throwback to that way of thinking.

There are examples where this approach worked, the seventies Advent loudspeaker from the US had a 10" bass unit, but was known for its excellent reproduction across the whole audio spectrum. Unfortunately, most similar designs were rather lacking in mid resolution.

There was a classic example selling on eBay the other day, Mordaunt Short 500 speakers, these date from around 1968 and have a 12" bass unit crossing over to a Decca DK30 ribbon tweeter. The ribbon unit can't be safely used to useful levels below about 4kHz without risk of fusing the diaphragm, so this speaker has a 'hole' in the midrange, due to the big driver crossing over too high. I heard these donkeys years ago and it was a known criticism.

[SPS]

I agree about the mids being important, in my view its also the easiest part to get right ... getting the bass and the top end to match tends to be more of a challenge.

[Haselsh1]

I have to agree which is why I adore EL34 powered amplifiers and LS3/5a's all propped up with an analogue front end.

[Marco]

I agree about the mids being important, in my view its also the easiest part to get right ...


Easier to get right, Steve, if you're using valves ;)

Marco.

[Yomanze]

Easier to get right, Steve, if you're using valves ;)

Marco.

...or an LFD amp. ;)

[wee tee cee]

I run Quad 63s with valve mono blocks and my alternative set up is recently acquired Spendor sp1s with a T amp......boy oh boy do both these combos provide midrange that does justice to female vocals. Hour upon hour of fatigue free listening pleasure,dare say I could get better frequency extreme presentation but for listening to music......WOW!!!!!

maybe the middle way expounded by many great thinkers is the way to happiness

[MartinT]

Great midrange is everything, the basis on which the rest of the system can be build. I can hear poor midrange immediately and reject any system with such a characteristic, no matter what other strengths it may have.

Like Tim, good reproduction of female voice is a must for me :)

[Marco]

...or an LFD amp

Lol... I should point out, before I get accused of being a thermionic fanboy, that the only reason I made my earlier statement was because valve kit is known for excelling in the midrange ;)

Marco.

[MartinT]

I've never heard more beguiling midrange than from the superb EL84 valve.

[Marco]

Yup, EL84s are brilliant in that area - very sweet sounding! :)

Marco.

[RobbieGong]

With regards to this thread all I can say is 'Word !' or 'Words' ! to be precise :lol: I remember someone expressing some time ago that 'midrange is where the music is', (may well have been here). I remember at the time thinking how so spot on that statement was and that I couldn't have put it better myself :)

[Thing Fish]

My Spendors really excel in the midrange department. Listening to Cassandra Wilson tonight was sublime...:)

[dantheman91]

For female vocal i will stick to my "BBC" heritage Rogers Ls7's i love them.

[Marco]

My Spendors really excel in the midrange department. Listening to Cassandra Wilson tonight was sublime...


Yup, Dave, Spendies are excellent in that department, especially now that you've got a proper turntable... ;)

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

Just listening to Nora Jones through my SP1s- indeed a magical midrange with these and their ilk, perfect for low-level listening when the nippers are asleep and I have the house to myself. :)

[Marco]

Go on, turn it up for a change, Alex, and frighten the little buggers to death!! :gig:

:eyebrows:

Marco.

[Thing Fish]

Just listening to Nora Jones through my SP1s- indeed a magical midrange with these and their ilk, perfect for low-level listening when the nippers are asleep and I have the house to myself. :)

I actually prefer low level listening. I find I can hear the instruments more clearly. Am I alone in this...:scratch:

My volume control starts at 12:00 and as yet has never gone past 3:00.

[Jimbo]

I agree, midrange is where it all happens to make music sound real. Regarding the female voice I am still wowed even after 25 years by my Original Spendor SP2's. They absolutely excel in the midrange and can throw a frighteningly real holographic reproduction of the human voice.

[Alex_UK]

I actually prefer low level listening. I find I can hear the instruments more clearly. Am I alone in this...:scratch:

Nope, you're not alone Dave. Don't get me wrong, some music has to be played loud, but for the majority of my taste loud just hurts these days! I know Marco will disagree, but bass that rattles your innards does nothing for me at all most of the time. :)

[Marco]

Lol... Then you must not like rock concerts!! ;)

Incidentally, I also listen at low levels most of the time. My preamp's volume control starts at 6pm, and most of my listening is done at around 8-9 o'clock on the dial. With big Tannoys, you don't need to crank it up to achieve genuine scale and presence from recorded music.

However, just like a driving a big car with plenty of engine torque and more than a few horses, it's nice to be able to 'put your foot down', as it were, and unleash the beast!! :D

Marco.

[Alex_UK]

Go on, turn it up for a change, Alex, and frighten the little buggers to death!! :gig:

:eyebrows:

Marco.

Maybe I should have tried that instead of the hour of mayhem I had trying to put the little "darlings" to bed! :lol:

[Alex_UK]

Lol... Then you must not like rock concerts!! ;)

Marco.

Well that's why I said "most of the time" - Rock concerts are one of the exceptions when you want to feel the music! A good dance tune too, is often better with a bit of gut wrenching! :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Indeed, and those are the main occasions when I like to crank it up!

I was at a Rammstein gig once at the Manchester arena, sitting quite high up, and I could feel that my trouser flaps were flapping, as a result of the venomous bass energy that the band's massive amps and speakers were pressurising the arena with...!! :eek:

It was FOOKING LOUD. Thrash/heavy metal music MUST be played loud or it doesn't work. I can manage to create a snapshot of the effect I got at the gig with my system at home, playing a CD of the same music. It's always worth a giggle when you have dudes round who appreciate that kind of thing ;)

Marco.

[Firebottle]

It was FOOKING LOUD.

Love the understatement, it made me chuckle :)

[John]

I live experiencing the energy; for me music it is something in my case that needs to be felt. Spending my 20s and 30s mostly at places like the Marquee has left that imprint of how music needs to be experienced. There something about the movement of molecules in the body that loud music brings that I love
Its great having speakers that shift air lol

[Marco]

Nicely put, John. I totally agree. However, it has to be with the *right* music, as actually, some music benefits from being played quietly.

The three main genres of music which, for me, simply must be heard, pounding controlled and cleanly out of huge speakers with big drive units, in order to create the appropriate sense of scale and realism, is rock, dance and large-scale orchestral (classical). Air simply MUST be shifted!!

There's absolutely nothing to beat 'feeling' the sheer intensity of that music flowing through your body, as you sit there utterly enthralled and captivated by the experience, and transported to where you may have once heard that music live :fingers:

:exactly:

So I guess that midrange isn't everything...

Marco.

[jollyfix]

I can understand where you guys are coming from about volume and type of music, yes i enjoy loud,but not for long sessions these days + my speakers cant cause trouser flap.
Most of the live gigs i have been to or worked at never sounded like clean or like a HiFi. The volume was loud yes, the classic ring in the ears on some gigs, but i would not like to create that at home.
Going to a gig is more about the whole experience , enjoying music with loads of other people, the music being played live, so sounding different from the record etc.
When you play stuff at trouser flat volume, are the recordings of live gigs? Do you play stuff that loud for a short session?
Maybe because as i get older i prefer lower listening volumes, all those years going to gigs, being down the front, there would be a short break between the songs , you would take the opportunity to take a breath and have a moments rest from all the bopping about. You look about the Hall and notice some bods standing at the back by the Bar, and think for f**k sake its a gig get into it. These days i'm at the back of the hall enjoying a pint or three with my mate thinking look at those idiots down the front getting all squashed and sweaty.

[MartinT]

There's absolutely nothing to beat 'feeling' the sheer intensity of that music flowing through your body, as you sit there utterly enthralled and captivated by the experience

I guess that's why you and I like big speakers. I always have. I can admire small speakers (heck, I'm listening at my PC at the moment), but I miss the bottom octaves when they're not there.

However, big speakers with poor midrange are still rejected out of hand by me. For instance, I cannot stand the colouration and honk of Klipsch speakers, no matter how dynamic they can sound.

[The Grand Wazoo]

That's it isn't it?
You can just about do without bass if circumstances dictate it, but to make real sacrifices in the mid-range is unthinkable.

[Marco]

These days i'm at the back of the hall enjoying a pint or three with my mate thinking look at those idiots down the front getting all squashed and sweaty.


Hehehe... Good post, Dave! I agree with much of it.

It should be noted that when I mention recreating, as closely as possible, the 'live gig' experience at home, I'm talking about when the sound was loud, but also clean, and the overall sound quality good (yes I've been to few gigs like that). I detest with a passion, screamingly bright and 'shouty' sounding PA amps, and accompanying speakers, being overdriven into serious distortion.

No, that is definitely NOT an effect I wish to reproduce at home!! :nono: It's about recreating a snapshot of the visceral intensity of a live musical performance: the sense of feeling the music, as well as hearing it. However, only for short sessions, as I value my ears!

One of the most difficult instruments to reproduce believably through a hi-fi system is a kick or snare drum. If you've ever been in the same room as someone 'giving it plenty' on a drum kit, you'll know the venomous ferocity and 'physicality' of the sound, not to mention the 'blink factor', as drums hit skin with such a CRACK that it makes you not only blink, but often jump out of your OWN skin!! :eyebrows:

I have high-quality recordings taken live of musicians playing drums, and they're an essential part of my system test music, along with anything, such as female vocals and acoustic instruments, which in order to be portrayed faithfully, demands midrange transparency and accuracy, and whilst not quite sounding like there's a live drum kit in my room (NO system could do that), the results are pretty damn close! It's all about maximising the 'blink factor' ;)

So whilst midrange accuracy is very important, I couldn't live without having speakers that also do serious justice to the bottom end. In my experience also, 90% of systems I've heard lack immediacy and round-off the dynamics necessary in order to create that 'live feel' with recorded music (or as 'live' as the recording will allow). Quite simply, they caricature the musical information they are presented with in an unacceptable way, by creating an overtly coloured sound that is too restrained and 'polite', and so the clarity and impact, crucial in enabling the listening experience to as closely as possible replicate that of the whatever sound left the recording studio, is lost.

I've voiced my system to sound as musically lifelike as possible, using my experience of listening to live music, amplified and un-amplified, as a benchmark. It simply facilitates, as far as it can, what the music demands that is being reproduced. I wouldn't have it any other way! 'Polite' I simply don't do.

Marco.

[walpurgis]

It's not unheard of for me to get the whole house shaking (and nextdoor) with a bit of hard hitting rock.

On some occasions I reckon I must be using at least ten watts! Oh, the joys of living with Tannoys.

Mind you I used to have a pair of big horn cabinets with 102db sensitivity drivers, they could exceed 120db!

[jollyfix]

The problem i have is not having a system/speakers able to create that live sound, and thats one of the main reasons for not playing at loud volumes. The other factor is these days i have neighbors.
My system can do midrange, so i enjoy the music i play. One day i hope to own a system capable of a musical lifelike sound at all volumes.:)

[Marco]

"Neighbours" - wot be those, den? :scratch:

Marco.

[jollyfix]

I used to live out in the wild on the Somerset levels, orchard out front of the cottage, river behind. No neighbours, no street lights. Moved to Glastonbury, end of terrace house, met the old neighbour next door, he was deaf. Fantastic i thought ,i could still play some loud music. He passed away last year, i now have a young family with 4 young kids.:doh:
Apologies for going off thread topic.

[Marco]

You should've done it the other way round, Dave, and instead now be basking in the peace and tranquility of rural Somerset.

That was your mistake!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

P.S What makes more noise: the 4 kids next door, or your system? ;)

[jollyfix]

I know we both regret moving, but due to work needed a place in London, so bought a house in Glastonbury and a flat in London. We hope to get back to the wild in a few years. The kids can be heard at times, but i play music (not to loud) most of the time so don't hear them. Summertime with kids making noise in garden is the worst. Fortunately i'm working at the festival for most of the summer.

[John]

I love the feel of kick drums going through my body and agree its hard to get good kick drums and snare. In fact the main reason why I got into decent HIFI was getting rid of harsh snare but wanting to feel the insensity of the music. I agree this is not for everyone but essential for a lot of the music I listen too. The mid has to be right too, but think getting the other parts are more tricky

[Sovereign]

My open baffles do midrange EXTREMELY well, hearing every nuance and intent of the music, however I listen to a lot of bass led music such as Marcus Miller and Victor Wooten and without my 15 inchers it would not be as bloody brilliant as it is.
To me bass is the floor everything else stands on, but without good midrange you have nothing.

[Firebottle]

To me bass is the floor everything else stands on, but without good midrange you have nothing.

+1