View Full Version : Manchester Hi-Fi Show, Radisson Blu Hotel, Manchester Airport - 23/24th March
Anyone going? I plan to pop along on Sat 23rd.
Mike - H
15-03-2013, 14:43
I'm hoping to get down there, just not sure when yet.
Mike
trio leo
15-03-2013, 15:09
It's close to me so I'll be going, quite looking forward to it.
enjoy your music
regards Al
Ammonite Audio
15-03-2013, 15:20
It's not close to me, so I won't be bothering.
Si, Dave and I will be there
I *may* be there on the Sunday, if I've recovered in time from my trip down south to Mike's, the day before :)
Marco.
hifinutt
15-03-2013, 20:48
would absolutely love to go but tied up, let us know how it goes
MikeMusic
16-03-2013, 11:52
I *may* be there on the Sunday, if I've recovered in time from my trip down south to Mike's, the day before :)
Marco.
We'll be as gentle and friendly as we can be
:)
Lol. It's not that, dude - it's the driving distances!
It's 207 miles from my door to yours, ONE WAY... That's a round-trip of 414 miles! Therefore, it depends on whether I'll feel like driving to Manchester the following day, especially if I get back from yours at 'silly o'clock' in the morning... ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
16-03-2013, 12:15
Lol. It's not that, dude - it's the driving distances!
It's 207 miles from my door to yours, ONE WAY... That's a round-trip of 414 miles! Therefore, it depends on whether I'll feel like driving to Manchester the following day, especially if I get back from yours at 'silly o'clock' in the morning... ;)
Marco.
I can kick you out if you give me a deadline :)
Seriously. Can't have you knackered *before* you even start the drive
Thassa long way
'Tis indeed, but I have a nice big comfy car that eats up the miles in a rather entertaining way! ;)
Marco.
guyhayton
22-03-2013, 21:03
Well there has been some talk about the weather... just been on the Facebook page and they are desperately trying to let everyone know that the show is still on.
We're looking forward to a fantastic weekend at the Radisson BLU Hotel, Manchester Airport. All the Exhibitors are checked in and now setting up.
I for one will still be going... why, (a) well I don't get out much (b) it took some negotiation with the ex to swap childcare around (c) it is only a few miles down the road (d) to support [show solidarity] to the exhibitors who have put in the effort
If I am the only one there - I get to listen to my tunes all day :cool:
Still intend going, though I might go on Sunday instead if the weather looks too grotty in the morning.
sq225917
23-03-2013, 07:47
Not going to be many people going today id warrant
I'd literally have to dig my car out, just to get it out of the driveway (the snow's about a foot and a half deep there now), and then face side roads with about the same amount of snow on them, before I could even get to the main road, which is *just* about usable, but not without significant caution...
About 10 inches has fallen here overnight, and it's STILL coming down!! :doh:
My advice for those at the show is NOT to attempt to travel back on Sunday (as the forecast is for more snow then, too - and it's spreading throughout the country), and BOOK IN at the hotel for a night or two until the snow clears sufficiently for it to be safe to travel. This warning also applies to anyone thinking of going to the show today or tomorrow who lives a significant distance from Manchester Airport - STAY AT HOME, FOLKS. Honestly, it isn't worth it.
Otherwise, the likelihood is that you'll face the risk of being trapped by snow drifts on motorways in freezing conditions for goodness how long, and/or caught in massive traffic jams!! The situation out there is seriously BAD!!
Marco.
guyhayton
23-03-2013, 09:09
I'd literally have to dig my car out, just to get it out of the driveway (the snow's about a foot and a half deep there now)....
About 10 inches has fallen here overnight, and it's STILL coming down!! :doh:
My goodness me... it goes to show how the weather can vary so much in relatively short distances.
My advice for those at the show is NOT to attempt to travel back on Sunday.... This warning also applies to anyone thinking of going to the show today or tomorrow who lives a significant distance from Manchester Airport
As the saying goes... it's only hi-fi !!! Marco gives good advice there (as always ;) )
No worries, Guy. I'm just concerned for people's safety. It's already been on the news that the some of the main motorways, linking to Manchester, such as the M62, have been closed - and if the snow keeps falling, that situation is only likely to get worse!
Marco.
hi guys
there is NO snow here at the show, over the pennines totally clear, yes maybe snow where you are but the train takes you straight to the show
had a good day today, plenty made it
support the uk shows its what keeps the hifi industry interesting
see you sunday hopefully
all the best
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/files/imag0567_174.jpg
david
I understand why you would want to urge people to go to the show Dave but really, Marco is correct. If you live in a part of the country where the snow is at its worst then stay at home, it really isn't worth the risk... :eyebrows:
Glad you're having a good show, David. If there's a heatwave overnight to melt half of the polar ice-cap, which has fallen on North Wales, I'll be at the show tomorrow! ;)
Check out the scene currently, chez moi:
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3996/img2058bj.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/521/img2058bj.jpg/)
The back garden:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8273/img2061tu.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/209/img2061tu.jpg/)
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9537/img2060rt.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/img2060rt.jpg/)
Me ol' jelopy, well and truly trapped...
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/953/img2059vu.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/img2059vu.jpg/)
:( :(
Marco.
guyhayton
23-03-2013, 19:18
Well I was by far not the only one there... roads were clear, although I used local knowledge to park at Heald Green train station for free and £1.70 for a return to the airport station. Cheaper than the £15+ car parking at the hotel/airport.
Anyway it was a good afternoon, listening to the designer of Vivid Audio about speaker design in between playing hires tracks on a system that cost £85,500 not including cables!!
The usual anti-social vendors who just turned the volume to 9 regardless of their neighbours or the ears of the public. But my memorable room was spending nearly an hour in the Icon Audio room. As I am just finalising my house purchase, I went to figure out my new main system and I wanted to listen to some valve amplifiers.
Well I went to Icon Audio and had David Shaw their MD and designer spend about 20mins explaining his range and the relative values of triodes, penthodes, ultra linear modes etc. got bit lost on the push/pull explanation though. laughs for clarity it was me who got lost on the push/pull explanation
David was a proper gent, a nice chap .
He then kindly wired up things and allowed me to put on my own CD whilst he chatted to and had his photo taken by the Hi-Fi World journalist. the sound was absolutely sublime! sod the stupid £85k system, this was just so musical. I am a valve convert as I sat down listening to music before I realised that the room had filled behind me, with people stood up two deep at the back.
I would like to say it was my music choices, but it was of course the system.
I may not be clairvoyant but I do see Icon Audio being a significant part of my new main system. A great afternoon and probably an expensive one.
Well, Sheffield has had quite a lot of snow. However, my friend Dave and I will be attempting the journey to the show tomorrow :).
Good luck, Mark. There's a little bit of a thaw on now, so as long as there isn't further snowfall tomorrow, and the roads you're using are clear, you should be ok! :)
Marco.
Glad you got there, Guy, and enjoyed yourself. The boys at Icon Audio always manage to make some nice noises! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Good luck, Mark. There's a little bit of a thaw on now, so as long as there isn't further snowfall tomorrow, and the roads you're using are clear, you should be ok! :)
Marco.
Well, we shall see; ideally we would like to go via Snake Pass - can't see that being open though.
sq225917
24-03-2013, 09:19
David Shaw lost on the difference between SE and PP. That doesn't surprise me at all, I do wonder if he really has a hand in the design as opposed to just specifying product for someone else to design.
On my way to the show :)
Interesting walk down the hill to the train station - fell over three times. Am now sat on the train with a wet arse. This better be worth it :steam:
Cheers,
Keith
chris@panteg
24-03-2013, 10:45
David Shaw lost on the difference between SE and PP. That doesn't surprise me at all, I do wonder if he really has a hand in the design as opposed to just specifying product for someone else to design.
Simon , are you sure that's what Guy inferred ? I don't know David Shaw but that's quite an acusation ! Looks like trolling if I didn't know any better .
On my way to the show.
Interesting walk down the hill to the train station - fell over three times. Am now sat on the train with a wet arse. This better be worth it :steam:
Ha - ya daftee! Now if you'd been wearing your nappy.... ;)
Snow is still falling here in Wrexham, albeit not as heavily as it was on Friday. I just hope that it doesn't spread towards the routes being used by show-goers today, going to and returning from the event.
I hope that everyone has a safe return journey and enjoys the show. We need some pics! :)
Marco.
Well, Dave and I are at the show now :). Bizarrely, there is zero snow in Manchester!
Nice one, although that doesn't surprise me. What was it like on the way there? :)
Marco.
P.S Try and take some piccies!
Ah, we'll, the journey :) we tried four routes before we managed to get here. Am sat in the bar now :).
Sounds like a well deserved drink, then! I thought it'd be a bit of a nightmare... Let's hope that there isn't one waiting for you on the way back ;)
Marco.
Back home now. Enjoyed the show - will post my impressions and a few very poor phone snaps later tonight or tomorrow.
Cheers,
Keith
Stratmangler
24-03-2013, 17:07
I thought it'd be a bit of a nightmare...
It probably wouldn't have been if the obvious M1/M62/M60/M56 route had been taken.
I wouldn't have entertained the idea of using any of the direct Pennine passes at all ;)
Bach home now :) - no issues other than the long drive. The only option was to go via the motorway as both Snake and Woodhead passes are definitely closed!
We go to a lot of shows (pretty much all of them) and we make a 'boys day' out of it and always have fun. However, this was a very quiet show with less than twenty rooms - it only took about an hour to hear all of it and we ended up sitting in the bar for quite a while (the hotel staff were very friendly). We still had fun, but it was very quiet (largely down to the weather I expect).
In general, the sound quality was OK - I didn't think much of the Linn active setup which managed to sound remarkably opaque. The Hart speakers were downright strange too :).
Well, Dave and I are at the show now :). Bizarrely, there is zero snow in Manchester!
It isn't bizarre it just doesn't settle in Manchester... perhaps the microclimate is strange though being extremely wet through the year, but never really snowed over.
Yeah, I know - its in a rain shadow area (apparently); it was poetic license - the lack of snow seeming bizarre because there was so much when we set off...
Any pics from the show then, daftees? :)
Marco.
oh yes of course we need pics don't we guys, now for a bit of fun anyone who can name "every" piece of kit and the speakers will be sent a mains goody from my site worth £50
to make it easier I will list the items to name, the more detail the better chances of winning, there is a short length of speaker cable visible so guess that one if you dare :)
speakers
music source 1
music source 2
music source 3
music source 4
mains conditioner 1
mains conditioner 2
mains regenerator
phono stage
amplifier
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/ADS/SHOW_zpsb8b87976.jpg
Electrovoice
25-03-2013, 17:38
I went on the Saturday. Loved the Time Step 1210 with the SME. The ART Loudspeakers also blew me away but I don't have £43k. Some lovely stuff in the Inspire room but the star of the show for me was the Brodman speakers from Vienna. Absolutely wicked.
Spectral Morn
25-03-2013, 19:22
Bach home now :) - no issues other than the long drive. The only option was to go via the motorway as both Snake and Woodhead passes are definitely closed!
We go to a lot of shows (pretty much all of them) and we make a 'boys day' out of it and always have fun. However, this was a very quiet show with less than twenty rooms - it only took about an hour to hear all of it and we ended up sitting in the bar for quite a while (the hotel staff were very friendly). We still had fun, but it was very quiet (largely down to the weather I expect).
In general, the sound quality was OK - I didn't think much of the Linn active setup which managed to sound remarkably opaque. The Hart speakers were downright strange too :).
Well that's the end of that (20 rooms is hardly viable), how the mighty have fallen. I find that figure desperately sad considering how many exhibitors used to be at the Park Inn at Heathrow.
Glad I didn't go, as that number of rooms would hardly justify the cost of flying to Manchester (not that I could have as Belfast airport was closed on Friday)
Regards Neil
Yep, personally, I'm all for supporting the shows (and go to most of them), but 18 rooms isn't many. After all, Scalford had about 50 exhibitors. I'm sure that the unseasonably bad weather will have had a negative impact on the number of visitors (we were really pretty dedicated to make it there), but I'm afraid I can't see this show running another year in this format - though I hope I'm wrong.
Having not been to a hi-fi show for over five years, I was eager to visit this year's show held at the Radisson Blu Hotel. Apologies for the awful photo quality - a very poor phone camera and difficult lighting in many room are to blame.
Vivid Audio
http://www.simister.com/public/aw13/vivid.jpg
Vivid speakers powered by Devialet elctronics. I thought the sound was quite poor - coloured with a very odd sound stage even with simple music (flamenco guitar with percussion). Not a great start!
Brodmann
http://www.simister.com/public/aw13/brodmann.jpg
Now this was more like it. Electrocompaniet CD player and integrated amp feeding Brodmann Festival F S speakers. The rather small speakers were doing a great job filling the room with Saint-Saëns' 'Danse Macabre'. Very even-handed presentation and good bass extension made for a very enjoyable and musical performance.
Inspire Hi Fi
http://www.simister.com/public/aw13/inspire1.jpg
When I entered their room, Inspire were demonstating their Monarch (Technics-based) DD turntable, fitted with an Ortofon arm and Ortofon Xpression cartridge. Dire Straits 'Sultans Of Swing' was playing and sounding good with lots of rhythmic bounce - this turntable certainly gets timing right, but I thought the cymbals on this track sounded a little bit too 'splashy'. Next up was their Enigma (Lenco-based) idler-drive TT fitted with SME V and (I think) Ortofon Cadenza Black playing the same track. This put a big grin on my face! Loads of drive and pace that had my foot tapping along. The cymbals sounded more natural too to my ears.
Both turntables were played through a Rothwell Iridium phono stage and Icon pre amp and mono blocks. Don't know what the speakers were.
http://www.simister.com/public/aw13/inspire2.jpg
MCRU
http://www.simister.com/public/aw13/mcru.jpg
Now I won't list the kit I heard in MCRU's room as David is running his competition, but the system sounded extremely enjoyable. I was impressed by the bass extension of the small speakers. I had a brief but enjoyable chat with David and Nick (lurcher) was also in the room, but I didn't get a chance to speak with him.
Audio T/Rega
http://www.simister.com/public/aw13/rega.jpg
Rega RP8/Elicit-R and PMC fact 3 speakers were doing a great job with some Fleetwood Mac. Bright, breezy and very enjoyable.
Icon Audio
http://www.simister.com/public/aw13/icon.jpg
I enjoyed this room so much I made three visits during my stay at the show. Unfailingly musical regardless of the type of music being played, the all-Icon system never put a foot wrong. Very impressed.
To be continued...
guyhayton
25-03-2013, 21:50
Icon Audio
http://www.simister.com/public/aw13/icon.jpg
I enjoyed this room so much I made three visits during my stay at the show. Unfailingly musical regardless of the type of music being played, the all-Icon system never put a foot wrong. Very impressed.
My new system :D
Lodgesound
25-03-2013, 22:51
Just in case the HiFi indistry at large had not noticed I will do the very British thing and state the obvious..........
The vast majority of middle income families in the UK can barely afford to buy or rent a house and that is without taking into account heating it, buying food, running a car and raising children.
Prices quoted at these shows are simply comic now and need in most cases to be divided by 10. There simply is not enough disposable income to sustain this stupid pricing structure in the UK now.
£43 000 is a sensible deposit on a house for goodness sake - there are relatively few multimillionaires in this country contrary to popular belief and certainly not enough to sustain a whoppingly overpriced HiFi retail industry where sheer snobbery it seems becomes a significant deciding factor as regards pricing.
The reason Scalford works so well is that it is run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts by real world folk who often achieve quite stunning results from extremely modestly priced systems proving to visiting parties that such things can be done. Some argue that this is not a business model of any kind - I would argue that it is a model on which to base a future industry that produces products that people in the real world can realistically aspire to and more importantly actually want to own.
This is why shows such as these are failing and have 18 rooms as opposed to 50 or 100. It's like watching Top Gear - you watch and enjoy the spectacle but honestly most have not a hope in hell of affording such cars which is why the producers of the show turned it from a serious review programme into a piece of entertainment & comedy.
On Saturday afternoon around four a gent popped into the room Renaissance room and explained to me in the broadest Yorkshire accent
"Thank fook lad, some music I can listen too, I've just come from the top of the XXX room it were' that bright in there I needed a welding mask to listen"
Quote of the weekend for me :lol:
Now I won't list the kit I heard in MCRU's room as David is running his competition, but the system sounded extremely enjoyable. I was impressed by the bass extension of the small speakers. I had a brief but enjoyable chat with David and Nick (lurcher) was also in the room, but I didn't get a chance to speak with him.
Yes, they sound as big as floorstanders... very strange how easily they fill a room.
Just in case the HiFi indistry at large had not noticed I will do the very British thing and state the obvious..........
The vast majority of middle income families in the UK can barely afford to buy or rent a house and that is without taking into account heating it, buying food, running a car and raising children.
Prices quoted at these shows are simply comic now and need in most cases to be divided by 10. There simply is not enough disposable income to sustain this stupid pricing structure in the UK now.
£43 000 is a sensible deposit on a house for goodness sake - there are relatively few multimillionaires in this country contrary to popular belief and certainly not enough to sustain a whoppingly overpriced HiFi retail industry where sheer snobbery it seems becomes a significant deciding factor as regards pricing.
The reason Scalford works so well is that it is run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts by real world folk who often achieve quite stunning results from extremely modestly priced systems proving to visiting parties that such things can be done. Some argue that this is not a business model of any kind - I would argue that it is a model on which to base a future industry that produces products that people in the real world can realistically aspire to and more importantly actually want to own.
This is why shows such as these are failing and have 18 rooms as opposed to 50 or 100. It's like watching Top Gear - you watch and enjoy the spectacle but honestly most have not a hope in hell of affording such cars which is why the producers of the show turned it from a serious review programme into a piece of entertainment & comedy.
Excellent post Stewart!
One of the reasons I stopped buying the audio magazines was because I became sick to death of reading about megabucks equipment that automatically received rave reviews.
On Saturday afternoon around four a gent popped into the room Renaissance room and explained to me in the broadest Yorkshire accent
"Thank fook lad, some music I can listen too, I've just come from the top of the XXX room...
Name and shame, I say... If something is pish, it's pish and deserves to be outed as such! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Excellent post Stewart!
One of the reasons I stopped buying the audio magazines was because I became sick to death of reading about megabucks equipment that automatically received rave reviews.
+1
I've never seen the point of reading magazines that are simply full of bullshit 'badge-fi'. Hi-fi magazines should contain practical articles and reviews, of use to genuine enthusiasts who inhabit the real world, rather than seek to appease the sensibilities of materialistic dreamers who fantasise over unobtainable, grossly overpriced hi-fi jewellery - and the same should apply with equipment demonstrated by dealers and manufacturers at shows! :exactly:
Let's keep things 'real', rather than living in cloud-cuckoo land!!
Marco.
Audioman
27-03-2013, 17:05
Just in case the HiFi indistry at large had not noticed I will do the very British thing and state the obvious..........
The vast majority of middle income families in the UK can barely afford to buy or rent a house and that is without taking into account heating it, buying food, running a car and raising children.
Prices quoted at these shows are simply comic now and need in most cases to be divided by 10. There simply is not enough disposable income to sustain this stupid pricing structure in the UK now.
£43 000 is a sensible deposit on a house for goodness sake - there are relatively few multimillionaires in this country contrary to popular belief and certainly not enough to sustain a whoppingly overpriced HiFi retail industry where sheer snobbery it seems becomes a significant deciding factor as regards pricing.
The reason Scalford works so well is that it is run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts by real world folk who often achieve quite stunning results from extremely modestly priced systems proving to visiting parties that such things can be done. Some argue that this is not a business model of any kind - I would argue that it is a model on which to base a future industry that produces products that people in the real world can realistically aspire to and more importantly actually want to own.
This is why shows such as these are failing and have 18 rooms as opposed to 50 or 100. It's like watching Top Gear - you watch and enjoy the spectacle but honestly most have not a hope in hell of affording such cars which is why the producers of the show turned it from a serious review programme into a piece of entertainment & comedy.
While I totally agree with your comments the business model for these companies no longer considers the average Joe as it's target market. If you aim at low volume, high added value model and target the limited market of wealthy customers there is more profit these days as the people you talk about don't buy proper hi-fi of any complexion.
There are enough in high earning professions or have funds from property ownership and inheritance to maintain a market for such products. Note the motor industry where the luxury brands have increasing sales while middle market manufacturers have performed less well in the present climate. Just don't expect the market to adjust to 1970/80 prices again. Even the remaining high sound per pound companies such as Rega are dipping their toes into the uber expensive market. If there are few buyers in the UK there are always many in the world market partly due to internet access. As a result of the internet in most cases home buyers now have to pay the 'world' price rather than benefit from low prices on home grown high end kit.
The magazines give top marks to most things they review irrespective of the price. The question is if something is superb sounding but incredibly expensive does that justify a lower score? Often they put price in the cons column even if they give a piece 5 globes/stars. It's like giving a Ferrari or Lamborghini one star because most people can't afford it.
All this doesn't mean an affordable and fine sounding system can't be put together on a budget. Obviously in many cases the engineering and research levels required to produce some of these products in no way justifies the price but a low volume strategy inevitably results in high cost per unit which has to be justified by luxury presentation.
There are enough in high earning professions or have funds from property ownership and inheritance to maintain a market for such products.
I totally agree with you, Paul (and also what's written in the rest of your post), but what gets me is why it's presumed by manufacturers that those in the above financial bracket would automatically want to buy 'hi-fi jewellery', as opposed to good, solidly engineered high-end equipment, from specialist manufacturers, which delivers high on sound-per-pound value?
Without wishing to brag, let's just say that I'm not short of a few bob, and occupy the above category, but I would never waste my hard-earned money on the hi-fi jewellery aimed at people with a similar level of disposable income - it would simply go against the grain! :nono:
Surely there must be other audio enthusiasts in my position of a similar mindset? I simply don't believe that they're ALL badge snobs with more money than sense - and if that's the case, then manufacturers of high-end audio equipment are most definitely missing a trick!! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
27-03-2013, 17:39
+1
I've never seen the point of reading magazines that are simply full of bullshit 'badge-fi'. Hi-fi magazines should contain practical articles and reviews, of use to genuine enthusiasts who inhabit the real world, rather than seek to appease the sensibilities of materialistic dreamers who fantasise over unobtainable, grossly overpriced hi-fi jewellery - and the same should apply with equipment demonstrated by dealers and manufacturers at shows! :exactly:
Let's keep things 'real', rather than living in cloud-cuckoo land!!
Marco.
+1 I stopped buying HiFi+ simply because :-
a) A lot of the kit is not stocked locally and the local guys I use for kit usually
cant get hold of the gear.
b) The costs are stupidly high. If your going to spend that sort of money you
really really do need to listen to it first. :)
c) I've found that a lot of the gear I own pissess all over the real high end
stuff.
Just my 1/2 pence worth. :D
c) I've found that a lot of the gear I own pissess all over the real high end
stuff.
Andrew, one of the key goals of AoS (and an intrinsic part of our ethos) is to attempt to educate/raise people's awareness of the 'SPPV principle', and I believe we've achieved that by indentifying and championing equipment and ancillaries which deliver highly on that principle.
We promote lateral thinking: the ability to think 'outside of the box', and will continue to do so. We do not pander to the latest fashion trends or what is considered as 'aspirational', nor promote pointless 'flavours of the month' - and that will remain the case.
Many people who've joined AoS have succeeded in assembling the best sounding systems they've ever owned, purely from embracing that principle and learning from fellow enthusiasts, some of whom have greater knowledge than they possess, gained simply through having accumulated more experience in certain areas of our hobby.
Therefore, we will continue to promote the same message, in the hope of helping others to achieve the same, and in turn showing that attaining long-term satisfaction from a hi-fi system involves rather more than simply opening one's wallet! ;)
Marco.
Audioman
27-03-2013, 18:15
Surely there must be other audio enthusiasts in my position of a similar mindset? I simply don't believe that they're ALL badge snobs with more money than sense - and if that's the case, then manufacturers of high-end audio equipment are most definitely missing a trick!! ;)
Marco.
That's a good question. I dare say they can't afford to lose the carefully built up badge image and the customers that buy into that. They are certainly missing out on an important part of the market. This middle market is probably were most enthusiasts are but it may be that they don't perceive it as worth targeting. Generally the enthusiasts that inhabit forums don't buy into a particular brand and are at best one-off buyers. I also think that over a certain price point the target market is exports to the far east and north america were badge snobbery and appearance is more important.
There is no excuse for magazines that review mainly high end gear though as they are not providing a useful service to most of their readers. The trend though appears to be to produce publications and TV programs full of things people lust over but will never afford. Top Gear in a way has recognized the futility of this in mainly reviewing super cars but putting the main emphasis of the show on a series of motoring related comical stunts.
guyhayton
27-03-2013, 20:03
Name and shame, I say... If something is pish, it's pish and deserves to be outed as such! :eyebrows:.
There were some rooms, I couldn't even go through the door. One room on level 1 was one - it was next door to the Rega room and it was so loud and bright it was ridiculous. Thankfully I have no memory of the pain, but equally no memory of the company either.
My biggest disappointment was the Pixl / Dali room as I actually rave their speakers - and I own a pair also. But unfortunately, the electronics were not well matched. On commenting at how unusually "bright" the sound was, the Dali rep nodded his head and said that he hadn't chosen the electronics as he was there under invite - but yes, it was too bright and was disappointing. He clearly was not happy!
Pixll/Dali room
Dali Helikon 400Mk2 speakers £5499 (gloss black finish)
Astin Trew Concord DAC with USB £4100
Renaissance CD Transport £2200
Belles VT-01 pre-amplifier £4500
Belles SA100 power amplifier £4500
It's amazing how so much could sound so poor (well to me anyway as a fan of Dali speakers)
Marco, for months now I have noted you use the abbreviation 'SPPV' a lot, what does it stand for? I've guessed that the general meaning is 'value for money' and that the last two letters probably stand for 'Perceived Value', however for the life of me I can't figure out what the first two letters stand for. Please put me out of my misery... :lol:
p.s. Google was no help on this one... :scratch:
Exactly! It's the principle that my whole system is based upon and also something we very much champion on AoS :)
Marco.
Sound Per Pound Value :)
Ah, light dawns on marbled forehead, eventually.... hehe
Cheers Alex and I'm with you totally Marco. My system is all about SPPV :)
Alan Sircom
27-03-2013, 21:40
That's a good question. I dare say they can't afford to lose the carefully built up badge image and the customers that buy into that. They are certainly missing out on an important part of the market. This middle market is probably were most enthusiasts are but it may be that they don't perceive it as worth targeting. Generally the enthusiasts that inhabit forums don't buy into a particular brand and are at best one-off buyers. I also think that over a certain price point the target market is exports to the far east and north america were badge snobbery and appearance is more important.
There is no excuse for magazines that review mainly high end gear though as they are not providing a useful service to most of their readers. The trend though appears to be to produce publications and TV programs full of things people lust over but will never afford. Top Gear in a way has recognized the futility of this in mainly reviewing super cars but putting the main emphasis of the show on a series of motoring related comical stunts.
As this has morphed into my patch...
The industry is not missing out on the middle-market. The middle-market has largely left the industry. It's been badly damaged by the changes to the way the majority of people below 45 listen to music today, and just as badly (although hopefully temporarily) damaged by the changes to Western economies post-2008. The middle market hasn't completely gone away, but it has largely morphed into a few key players instead of dozens of brands. This varies from country to country, but Rega is one of the mainstays more or less wherever you go.
Most of our readers today are from Russia and China. They make it abundantly clear that they don't want to read anything else than our opinions about what to buy in the magazine. They do not want to read anything they can get online (features, news), they don't want to waste their money reading what not to buy (we've recently published some poor reviews of products the complaints have already begun to pile in from our friends in the East). And they absolutely don't want to know about anything old or cheap.
If there were enough of a UK-based reader market left to effectively sideline the international market, you'd see more magazines writing features and reviews reflecting the requirements of the UK audience. As it stands, if we doubled the home audience at the expense of half the international audience, we'd stand to lose around 40% of our total readership. So we are providing a useful service to our readers, but our readers are increasingly not UK based and their demands are very different to yours.
My biggest problem now is while our wider audience quite likes the British sense of humour, they want a more authoritative, presidential tone, which puts us even more at odds with the home audience.
We do face the same problem Top Gear faced, but with not much of an entertaining way of getting over the problem. Our readers now are not that interested in us writing about lower cost audio, just as Top Gear viewers aren't that bothered about knowing what James May thinks about the latest Mondeo. Unfortunately we can't mask that by blowing up caravans or patronising foreigners.
Wakefield Turntables
27-03-2013, 21:44
Andrew, one of the key goals of AoS (and an intrinsic part of our ethos) is to attempt to educate/raise people's awareness of the 'SPPV principle', and I believe we've achieved that by indentifying and championing equipment and ancillaries which deliver highly on that principle.
We promote lateral thinking: the ability to think 'outside of the box', and will continue to do so. We do not pander to the latest fashion trends or what is considered as 'aspirational', nor promote pointless 'flavours of the month' - and that will remain the case.
Many people who've joined AoS have succeeded in assembling the best sounding systems they've ever owned, purely from embracing that principle and learning from fellow enthusiasts, some of whom have greater knowledge than they possess, gained simply through having accumulated more experience in certain areas of our hobby.
Therefore, we will continue to promote the same message, in the hope of helping others to achieve the same, and in turn showing that attaining long-term satisfaction from a hi-fi system involves rather more than simply opening one's wallet! ;)
Marco.
Bit heavy on the philosphy!!!! I agree with you, you dont have to justify the forums existance to me. The more I get into this hobby the more I realise that a lot of it is bullshit;) I've also graduated onto the SPPV idea of hi-fi. I'm agonising over the cheapest way of doing a plinth. I could quite easily make a plinth (I restored a 301 from scratch so a plinth is piss ball) but I want the best one for the job. I refuse to pay £1200+ for something that I could make for probably 70-80% less outlay.
Wakefield Turntables
27-03-2013, 21:48
As this has morphed into my patch...
The industry is not missing out on the middle-market. The middle-market has largely left the industry. It's been badly damaged by the changes to the way the majority of people below 45 listen to music today, and just as badly (although hopefully temporarily) damaged by the changes to Western economies post-2008. The middle market hasn't completely gone away, but it has largely morphed into a few key players instead of dozens of brands. This varies from country to country, but Rega is one of the mainstays more or less wherever you go.
Most of our readers today are from Russia and China. They make it abundantly clear that they don't want to read anything else than our opinions about what to buy in the magazine. They do not want to read anything they can get online (features, news), they don't want to waste their money reading what not to buy (we've recently published some poor reviews of products the complaints have already begun to pile in from our friends in the East). And they absolutely don't want to know about anything old or cheap.
If there were enough of a UK-based reader market left to effectively sideline the international market, you'd see more magazines writing features and reviews reflecting the requirements of the UK audience. As it stands, if we doubled the home audience at the expense of half the international audience, we'd stand to lose around 40% of our total readership. So we are providing a useful service to our readers, but our readers are increasingly not UK based and their demands are very different to yours.
My biggest problem now is while our wider audience quite likes the British sense of humour, they want a more authoritative, presidential tone, which puts us even more at odds with the home audience.
We do face the same problem Top Gear faced, but with not much of an entertaining way of getting over the problem. Our readers now are not that interested in us writing about lower cost audio, just as Top Gear viewers aren't that bothered about knowing what James May thinks about the latest Mondeo. Unfortunately we can't mask that by blowing up caravans or patronising foreigners.
Open an office in Russia then and be done with it :lol: Is it possible to purchase your mag as a PDF that can be downloaded and viewed on a laptop or PC. One of the things I hate is being told what to do and only being able to buy something via apple or only read a mag on a tablet really pisses me off.
Alan Sircom
27-03-2013, 22:04
Open an office in Russia then and be done with it :lol: Is it possible to purchase your mag as a PDF that can be downloaded and viewed on a laptop or PC. One of the things I hate is being told what to do and only being able to buy something via apple or only read a mag on a tablet really pisses me off.
Actually, we had an office in Kiev, but our translator disappeared. That could be 'was disappeared'...
Yes, the magazine can be bought as a PDF edition from the website, but only as a subscription. One off PDFs can be bought as back issues, but they are 'discouragingly' expensive compared to the subscription.Not a lot I can do about that; it's the company's standard model.
Haven't we been here before? I am pretty sure I remember Alan explaining his, and the magazines position very succinctly and in a gentlemanly manner on that occasion. Perhaps we should be grateful that such august industry tomes as HiFi+ are still with us rather than pillory them for having to react to market forces to ensure their survival.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for sharing your erudite thoughts as usual. Just to pick up on one thing you wrote:
Most of our readers today are from Russia and China. They make it abundantly clear that they don't want to read anything else than our opinions about what to buy in the magazine.
I don't doubt for a second that you're right, but what never ceases to amaze me is the desire for people, especially those who one would assume are not novices with hi-fi, to be TOLD what to buy, rather than using their own knowledge, experience and intuition to make decisions.
What makes that the situation now: can people no longer think for themselves and/or trust their own ears??
No disrespect, but I ceased using hi-fi magazines as a 'bible' for what gear was worth buying or not about 20 years ago... I don't need to be told by anyone what to buy. I'm perfectly content to find my own way in this hobby, and it's a continual learning curve, without needing the 'seal of approval' of a complete stranger.
Rather depressingly, people these days seem predisposed to rely on an 'expert' to TELL them what is 'best' - and that 'best' can only ever be the so-called expert's 'best', not necessarily what you or I would deem as such. Perhaps that issue alone (the lack of faith in one's own judgement ability), together with the focus on what is considered as 'aspirational', is a significant factor in the malaise that is currently affecting the high-end audio industry?
Marco.
Bit heavy on the philosphy!!!!
I was merely using the opportunity to outline what our stance is on AoS, Andrew :)
Marco.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for sharing your erudite thoughts as usual. Just to pick up on one thing you wrote:
I don't doubt for a second that you're right, but what never ceases to amaze me is the desire for people, especially those who one would assume are not novices with hi-fi, to be TOLD what to buy, rather than using their own knowledge, experience and intuition to make decisions.
What makes that the situation now: can people no longer think for themselves and/or trust their own ears??
No disrespect, but I ceased using hi-fi magazines as a 'bible' for what gear was worth buying or not about 20 years ago... I don't need to be told by anyone what to buy. I'm perfectly content to find my own way in this hobby, and it's a continual learning curve, without needing the 'seal of approval' of a complete stranger.
Rather depressingly, people these days seem predisposed to rely on an 'expert' to TELL them what is 'best' - and that 'best' can only ever be the so-called expert's 'best', not necessarily what you or I would deem as such. Perhaps that issue alone (the lack of faith in one's own judgement ability), together with the focus on what is considered as 'aspirational', is a significant factor in the malaise that is currently affecting the high-end audio industry?
Marco.
+1
We all have ears, we all know what we like (although we may not be able to describe 'exactly' what it is we like), and we all hear differently.
From what I often hear at audio shows, the message I get is that the exhibitors have never, ever, attended a live musical performance in their life!
So what's it all about? Trying to create some semblence, albeit flawed, of a live concert performance - or just a "nice", comfortable sound?
You choose.....
Alan Sircom
28-03-2013, 00:44
Hi Alan,
Thanks for sharing your erudite thoughts as usual. Just to pick up on one thing you wrote:
I don't doubt for a second that you're right, but what never ceases to amaze me is the desire for people, especially those who one would assume are not novices with hi-fi, to be TOLD what to buy, rather than using their own knowledge, experience and intuition to make decisions.
What makes that the situation now: can people no longer think for themselves and/or trust their own ears??
No disrespect, but I ceased using hi-fi magazines as a 'bible' for what gear was worth buying or not about 20 years ago... I don't need to be told by anyone what to buy. I'm perfectly content to find my own way in this hobby, and it's a continual learning curve, without needing the 'seal of approval' of a complete stranger.
Rather depressingly, people these days seem predisposed to rely on an 'expert' to TELL them what is 'best' - and that 'best' can only ever be the so-called expert's 'best', not necessarily what you or I would deem as such. Perhaps that issue alone (the lack of faith in one's own judgement ability), together with the focus on what is considered as 'aspirational', is a significant factor in the malaise that is currently affecting the high-end audio industry?
Marco.
I'm perhaps not saying this right. It's not necessarily our choices dictating the choices of the end user in a blindly following my lead sense (although that has always been a significant element - when I was in retail a quarter of a century ago, the WHF Awards would result in a month of phone calls about nothing else but the Award winners). But the broad decrease in the number of audio retail outlets coupled with a proliferation of brands (new and old) frequently not stocked in those retail outlets changes the face of reviewing somewhat.
A review should be used at best to shortlist products of interest to the reader, and the reader then visits a dealer who stocks the product to demonstrate it and see if it is worthy of being put on their own personal shortlist. Unfortunately, with a smaller pool of increasingly cash-strapped dealers out there, reviews help to create a shortlist of products a dealer will consider stocking.
In the past, a combination of review and dealer audition would help select the stock a dealer keeps, but increasingly the dealer takes the softer option of just following the reviews to dictate stocking policy.
This isn't so big a deal in the UK, because you are never going to have to travel more than about 150 miles to hear anything that's stocked in the UK (in theory at least). In the US, however, interested parties might now require a five hour flight to tick off one of the products on their shortlist these days.
That has meant a shift from reviews creating a shortlist to reviews being the shortlist.
So when we review something like a Rega turntable, it's as much for the hits on the site and increased circulation on the newsstand, as it is for the conclusions drawn. Because people everywhere can hear a Rega. However, when we review something like a Scheu turntable, it's to make people (both end users and retailers) aware that there is a damn good turntable called a Scheu and it's worth checking out.
Firebottle
28-03-2013, 08:05
:respect: to Alan for giving the view from 'the other side'.
Presumably the majority of readers being in Russia and China is because that is where the new money is. Also a dearth of showrooms within easy reach?
:cool:Alan
There's another angle here, to do with SPPV on an absolute scale: adopting great SPPV has given, for instance, Marco and myself systems that are not that far apart in cost but perform extremely well compared with many a £100k badge/bijou system demonstrated at shows (this seems to be a popular system value at shows for demo purposes). Are our systems good enough to represent the practical limit of what can be achieved for realistic money - in other words, do they represent great SPPV? In our eyes, yes (it's a very personal thing). Do they represent good SPPV for someone with a total budget of £1k to spend? No. SPPV is relative.
The second issue is important: is my system capable of the best sound that can be achieved? No. It is not the best that can be achieved no matter what the cost and I fully accept that there is a limit to performance that I can and do tolerate.
So what of the high end that is so readily dismissed here? I don't believe it's all cosmetic tat or badge-fi (much of it can hardly be the latter since no-one has heard of the brands I use, let alone brands like Devialet or DarTZeel). I have heard some truly great components that push the boundaries of what can be achieved if money is no object: the Continuum turntable and Wilson speakers, to give two examples. They may not represent high SPPV - how could they? - but they do represent the highest attainable achievement in sound quality that we are currently capable of realising.
That there are people who can afford such items is simple reality. That some of them don't appreciate what they have is of no consequence (but keeps the industry going). That a few of them really do is what is important. Look at the Greeks (before their financial collapse, anyway) who seem to have more high end enthusiasts than many other countries put together. These people have the means to buy very serious kit, but they live and breath music. Who are we to dismiss them?
Just look at some of the ACA members' systems, if you don't believe me:
http://www.aca.gr/
MikeMusic
28-03-2013, 10:02
Exactly! It's the principle that my whole system is based upon and also something we very much champion on AoS :)
Marco.
Useful if you are a cheapskate like me
:)
Wakefield Turntables
28-03-2013, 10:26
Omg:stalks: some series systems
Alan, thanks for the clarification, which makes sense. I understand exactly where you're coming from, although I do despair sometimes at what some people's criteria are for what is considered important when buying high-end audio equipment... :rolleyes:
Martin, you make some very good points, many of which I agree with, although my position on the matter differs slightly from yours, which I'll explain later. Right now, work beckons :)
Marco.
I'd give the Devialet a miss if you are looking for real SQ, as a one box solution it is rather good, looks superb and the remote is a work of art, its just a shame the unit doesn't deliver the SQ which mimic's its admiring glaces.
The Dartzeel on the other hand is quality piece of equipment, I took one in PX a few years ago and now my son uses it in his system. Though the gay golden colour and silly badged knob's could be changed :lol:
You can make a £3000 system sound like a £10K if you pay care and attention to set up, placement and partnering equipment.
Most show systems will never deliver anywhere near their potential, however in a home environment and correctly set up it will be another matter.
Though it may make you laugh the number of six figures systems that have been installed here in the UK that could never make their true potential simply as the supplying dealer just wishes to 'Sell' the equipment. Set up leaves something to be desired.
At the show last week, four rooms consistently played at stupid o'clock volume levels that disrupted may other exhibitors over the whole weekend.
Some were trying to recreate a 70's disco with truly appalling boxes with cones show honed inside a badly designed box masquerading as speakers.
Others paired equipment that on the own may deliver quality sounds however as a paring produced a muddy mid range, a complete mis-timed mess that the old rockers seemed to love (as their hearing is shot ATC/PMC owners take a bow).
Another dealer was so desperate to demonstrate the SPL quotient of a particular brand of active speakers with partnering electronics that were no match for the potential of speakers it sounded like lashed up pub gig with 2Kw in a 200 square foot room with the mixing desk slides set to number 11, genuinely dire (straits, yep they played that as well)
One manufacturer stood out for services to non evasive ear wax removal (Olympic standard) taking over the crown held by naim for so many years.
Truly enlightening was the ability of that system to etch a (non spiral) groove in my tympanic membrane from 60 meters through 8 walls, 40 or so people plus the surrounding white noise generated by the above.
I am sure that what's left of the Russian KGB could fashion a sonic weapon of mass destruction from power amp and tweeters.
Seriously though the trade does themselves no favors when it descends into a pissing contest for how loud does mine go :mental:
Or makes a concerted effort to brand, market the room whilst getting the sound to an acceptable standard.
Meanwhile back in the bat cave :cool:
One manufacturer stood out for services to non evasive ear wax removal (Olympic standard) taking over the crown held by naim for so many years.
Truly enlightening was the ability of that system to etch a (non spiral) groove in my tympanic membrane from 60 meters through 8 walls, 40 or so people plus the surrounding white noise generated by the above.
I am sure that what's left of the Russian KGB could fashion a sonic weapon of mass destruction from power amp and tweeters.
Like I said, name and shame! Or at least PM me.... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Like I said, name and shame! Or at least PM me.... :eyebrows:
Marco.
The room Marco has been mentioned a couple times on this thread already.
One other interesting piece, a frequenter of shows popped in and spent the last hour with us on Sunday, was explaining about his system changes over the last year and mentioned he was contemplating purchasing a US spec (stereo) one of these for $15000
Desirable amplification (http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/products/power-amplifiers/colosseum)
He contacted the manufacturer (Danish) to ask how much they would charge for the voltage swap, they turned round and offered him a new one for £15000 UKP around $23000 US retail price is $43000 go figure
Now where did I put my Robin Hood outfit :guitar:
RochaCullen
05-04-2013, 09:46
But the broad decrease in the number of audio retail outlets coupled with a proliferation of brands (new and old) frequently not stocked in those retail outlets changes the face of reviewing somewhat.
A review should be used at best to shortlist products of interest to the reader, and the reader then visits a dealer who stocks the product to demonstrate it and see if it is worthy of being put on their own personal shortlist. Unfortunately, with a smaller pool of increasingly cash-strapped dealers out there, reviews help to create a shortlist of products a dealer will consider stocking.
In the past, a combination of review and dealer audition would help select the stock a dealer keeps, but increasingly the dealer takes the softer option of just following the reviews to dictate stocking policy.
This isn't so big a deal in the UK, because you are never going to have to travel more than about 150 miles to hear anything that's stocked in the UK (in theory at least). In the US, however, interested parties might now require a five hour flight to tick off one of the products on their shortlist these days.
This makes total sense to me. Since moving back to Ireland from London almost 5 years ago I began indulging in this hobby and the construction of what is a modest system. And I have to rely on the opinions of fellow AOSers, plus the reviews I read online. The reason I have to rely on opinions, which are not formed by my own ears, is because nearest retail outlet that stocks anything close to what I'd be interested in purchasing is 300km away.
So the demographic that exists on the Island of Britain is far different from other areas: disposable income levels have facilitated the sale of high end kit for as long as high end hifi kit has been available, which has meant the presence of dealerships and hence the ability of folks to try with their own ears.
This historical ability (I use the word historical to imply the current state is a one that has existed for quite some time, as opposed to places like china, where it is a new thing for folks to be indulging in the buying of expensive sound equipment) to buy high end hifi has resulted in a wealth of tried and tested equipment being available on the second hand market. So folks in Britain can, if they wish, seek out and listen to components such as vintage Tannoy speakers and Radford amps; whereas, folks in China might be able to read about such things, but could never really get their hands on them unless they go about personally importing them.
I understand therefore why folks, living in a land where they cannot possibly have an appellation of hifi history, because it is not tangible to them, want to hear only of kit that is reviewed positively, as it liberates them from the deliberation us folks seem to revel in and allows them focus on the kit they should (according the published voice of the cognoscente) actually purchase.
RochaCullen
13-04-2013, 20:55
Just read my post again. Appellation - appreciation.
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