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View Full Version : Choosing the 'best' turntable and ignoring 'flavours'



Marco
02-04-2009, 09:43
I have written the comments below elsewhere on another thread, but decided that it was an important topic which deserved to be looked at in some more detail...

The problem when people decide which turntable is 'best' is the highly subjective nature of their judgement criteria and how they prioritise various aspects of this over others when coming to a conclusion. I am of course no different to anyone else in that respect, but what will always be of paramount importance is which turntable gets the most music from recordings whilst imposing as little of its own character or 'sonic signature' on it as possible. I don't want to hear what the T/T is doing - I just want to hear what's on the record.

Unlike others, and don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with this, but I am not seduced by the euphonic colorations some other T/Ts imbue on the music, particularly the LP12 and other low-mass belt-drives of its ilk. I can understand people enjoying and becoming used/addicted to this particular sound and then finding more neutral and 'accurate' sounding T/Ts 'tuneless' or not being very good at 'making music', when mostly what's happening is that they're seeking a particular 'flavour', and when that flavour isn't there then it's quite natural to assume that something is missing.

It's rather like removing the sweetness from a cup of tea when you're used to having three spoons of sugar in it, or eating a plain grilled steak, cooked rare, instead of having it well-done and covered in a cream pepper sauce: at first the taste will come as bit of a shock and superficially appear as quite unpleasant, or even somewhat bland in comparison to what you're used to, but in reality all that's happening is you're sampling what the raw ingredients actually taste like when all the 'artificial additives' have been stripped away - and so it is I feel with music, good direct-drive T/Ts or idlers, and their low-mass belt-drive counterparts.

Persevere with the 'rawness' of the presentation of a high quality direct-drive turntable, for example, and the only flavour you'll 'taste', or hear, is that of the music itself... Highly accurate speed stability, and thus vanishingly low coloration, is the root cause of that effect and the main ingredient in the success of this particular 'recipe'. One simply then chooses an arm and cartridge that enhances the quality of the raw ingredients, much like a good gravy does to a Sunday roast, or a beurre noisette on a piece of John Dory :)

Are we striving for 'flavours' with our turntable choices or simply the revealing of what's on the record with minimal 'artifical additives'?

<Discuss> :smoking:

Marco.

foxysounds
02-04-2009, 11:01
I think you used a very well thought-out analogy... and then ruined it by comparing the tonearm to gravy. After all, when you put gravy on a Sunday roast you taste less of the roast and more of the gravy.

Surely the tonarm and cartridge are components of the meal, not things that change the taste of the meal (or in your words "enhance the quality of the raw ingredients"). Otherwise you've successfully removed the signature of the deck from the music and added the siganture of the tonearm and cartridge instead.

Simon.

Haselsh1
02-04-2009, 11:06
This thread is very interesting to me as my next change will be the turntable. OK so I've gotta save for an age now to be able to afford it but when I'm in that fantastic position I hope to make the right choice.

I have to make the decision whether to go with a plastic DJ deck (SL1210 G5) or go with a more Hi-Fi based piece of engineering. The Technics would be the easiest to get as it's around five hundred quid but for a decent serious piece of engineering, the price is high. I intend to keep the Denon DL160 cartridge whatever but my Alphason arm could be ebayed.

The really fortunate thing here is that it'll be some time before I have to make the decision.

Marco
02-04-2009, 11:36
Hi Simon,


I think you used a very well thought-out analogy... and then ruined it by comparing the tonearm to gravy. After all, when you put gravy on a Sunday roast you taste less of the roast and more of the gravy.


LOL. I wouldn't want to come round to your place then for Sunday lunch! :eyebrows: ;)

No, by "gravy" I mean what's made from the natural meat juices and stock, which is part of the raw ingredients being cooked (chicken, beef, etc) not some artificial aftermarket sauce from a supermarket, or whatever - or 'Bisto'! I can assure you that the gravy, for example, my wife makes for roasts enhances the meat (raw ingredient), thus when applied, you taste the roast even more. If not, then you're doing the gravy wrong!

This is what I was alluding to when I made the comparison with a turntable and the chosen arm and cartridge. Get it right, and both simply build on the strengths of the 'raw' turntable, enhancing its performance, and thus music-making abilities, in same way as good gravy does to roasted meat, but without detracting from or artifically enhancing the raw ingredients.

Pouring, say, a heavy red wine or cream mushroom sauce over the roast would then make the point you made quite correct because it wouldn't be a natural part of the meat (raw ingredient) or cooking process, in the same way as the euphonic coloration an LP12 (and other low-mass belt-drive T/Ts) imbues on the music isn't part of what's on the record. It is simply a 'foreign flavour', which you enjoy or don't.

Do you see my point? :)

Haselsh (what's your first name, btw?),

You've got some big upgrades to look forward to in future going from a Linn Basik to a fully modified SL-1210! :cool:

Marco.

sc_ita
02-04-2009, 11:55
Completely in agreement with Marco! :cool:
Ciao,
Siro.

Haselsh1
02-04-2009, 11:57
You know I love that little emoticon on that previous post supping that pint of what looks like Guinness. I wish my bloody glass would refill like that...!!!

Regarding an SL1210 G5 if I were to buy one, there is no way I would then rip it to pieces to 'improve' what should already be a perfect deck. If however I choose to buy a secondhand LP12 then I of course expect to fit a different tonearm and cartridge. One thing I do like about the Technics as I have heard many, is the neutrality of it's sound. It still doesn't alter the fact that it is merely a plastic DJ deck.

Peter Stockwell
02-04-2009, 12:07
One thing I do like about the Technics as I have heard many, is the neutrality of it's sound. It still doesn't alter the fact that it is merely a plastic DJ deck.


It's not plastic. It's cast alloy for the most part. It started life as a hifi deck. I'd take my Crap DJ deck over anything short of a Platine Verdier.

Why should anything that's been built be "perfect" ? Everything is a compromise.

Marco
02-04-2009, 12:09
Hi Shaun,

Could you do me a favour and add your name to your signature so that when people read your posts they know whom they are addressing? Ta! :)


Regarding an SL1210 G5 if I were to buy one, there is no way I would then rip it to pieces to 'improve' what should already be a perfect deck.


I presume you mean a MK5G, which is what I use. The trouble is, it isn't a "perfect deck" (why should it be?) so it needs to be suitably modified to become a serious hi-fi turntable, and when thus modified it is!


One thing I do like about the Technics as I have heard many, is the neutrality of it's sound. It still doesn't alter the fact that it is merely a plastic DJ deck.


You're right about the neutrality of its sound, which is precisely the point I've been making (for reasons given) but personally I don't find the stock ones so neutral sounding. They are severely limited by a poor quality PSU, really crap quality cables (interconnects and tonearm wire), mat, feet, and headshell. The tonearm itself is decent enough but not the best and needs a lot of work before quality MC cartridges can be used. All these things need upgrading before it can be considered as a top-notch hi-fi turntable.

Once done, it will then be far from being a "plastic DJ deck" I can assure you! ;)

Marco.

griffo104
02-04-2009, 13:13
I still don't get the big wonder in DJ decks (ok the Technics deck).

I remain just as unimpressed. If Technics feel the deck should be used outside of it's industrial workplace (it's atool for DJs after all :)) why don't they produce something ?

I love bacon sandwiches but they taste SO much better with a bit of brown sauce on. I prefer my hifi like that and I'm not convinced a Technics DJ deck, modified or otherwise, give you the full flavour as originally intended.

I'll duck for cover right now :ner:

Peter Stockwell
02-04-2009, 13:21
I love bacon sandwiches but they taste SO much better with a bit of brown sauce on. I prefer my hifi like that and I'm not convinced a Technics DJ deck, modified or otherwise, give you the full flavour as originally intended.

Too much Brown sauce and everything tastes the same. Haven't had a bacon buttie in years :).

The Crap DJ decks didn't start life as DJ decks their origins are as hifi decks. My current deck (SL1210/KAB psu/SME IV/AT33 PTG/Clearaudio nano) is the most versatile I've ever had in terms of what it can playback.

sc_ita
02-04-2009, 13:51
Modifying the Techy seems a funny long mountain path.
I often wonder why high quality direct drive TT seem to be somewhat as a private "Japan affair". For example:
http://denon.jp/products2/dp1300mk2.html
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/marantz/tt8001.shtml
It seems they are the only two DD realistic alternative to the SL1210M5G. Has anyone experience of one of these machines?
Bye,
Siro.

Haselsh1
02-04-2009, 13:52
Peter, does that mean you're a veggie...??? I feel another thread coming on...!

I agree with everything that's been said so far, positive and negative about the Technics. I'd like to know why, if the machine is intended to be a final product, everyone then feels the need to rip it to pieces and 'improve' it. I have very limited experience with this deck but I do have experience and I apologise to all now. I thought it was constructed of plastic as it certainly feels that way. There is nothing about that deck that feels anything like a Nottingham Analogue Interspace for instance but I do appreciate that the NA is twice the price. I still also realise that it is a DJ deck and was and is intended for that purpose. I realise that it is very probably the ultimate DJ deck but that doesn't necessarily make it Hi-Fi.

Do I want one...??? I want a nicely engineered Hi-Fi turntable that I can assemble when it arrives and then enjoy. I do not want to have to spend 500 quid on something that I then have to spend another 200 on just to make it Hi-Fi. Fortunately, I have plenty of time.

griffo104
02-04-2009, 13:56
Too much Brown sauce and everything tastes the same. Haven't had a bacon buttie in years :).

The Crap DJ decks didn't start life as DJ decks their origins are as hifi decks. My current deck (SL1210/KAB psu/SME IV/AT33 PTG/Clearaudio nano) is the most versatile I've ever had in terms of what it can playback.

Funnily enough I think the exact same way about my Orbe.

I don't believe any deck/system is neutral, if so then I would hear what I hear at concerts and I don't and never have heard that from a hifi.

I would much rather have an olde worlde LP12 that put a smile on my face and made me want to do nothing but listen to music - flovoured but in a very nice way.

You could put 10 od us in a room and ask us to come up with something accurate and neutral and you would get 10 different answers. It's the reason why some guitarists prefer and Gibson to Fender - cos it sounds better to them. It's flavoured to their taste.

Marco
02-04-2009, 13:58
I'm not convinced a Technics DJ deck, modified or otherwise, give you the full flavour as originally intended.

I'll duck for cover right now :ner:


Griffo, the answer is simple: name a date and time and I'll being mine down to yours and you'll find out! ;)

Plus it would be a good excuse to meet and have a few :cool:

:gig:

Marco.

Marco
02-04-2009, 14:00
The Crap DJ decks didn't start life as DJ decks their origins are as hifi decks.


Indeed, Peter! This FACT seems to be getting missed, or perhaps deliberately ignored ;)

Shaun (and also Griffo),

I'll come back to you later - bit busy right now, and Shaun you still haven't added your first name to your signature!

Laters,
Marco.

Peter Stockwell
02-04-2009, 14:02
Veggie, Me ? I did have a salad for lunch today ...

The Mitchells and the Nottingham Analogues are surely great TTs, I don't know from own experience, I've never heard either. I don't like belt drive and believe the LP12 to be about the most overrated TT that ever was built. But I like marmite, bitter orange marmalade, citron confit and hate cucumber. So what would I know. ;)

Spectral Morn
02-04-2009, 14:04
Modifying the Techy seems a funny long mountain path.
I often wonder why high quality direct drive TT seem to be somewhat as a private "Japan affair". For example:
http://denon.jp/products2/dp1300mk2.html
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/marantz/tt8001.shtml
It seems they are the only two DD realistic alternative to the SL1210M5G. Has anyone experience of one of these machines?
Bye,
Siro.


Hi Guys

The link to the vinylengine site will not work if linked direct from AOS (this page). Please take the link (copy and then paste) and use your search engine from outside AOS.


Sorry for the hassle.


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
02-04-2009, 14:10
I think that anything that has been designed for and can survive the world of DJing can make an excellent basis for tweaking. Thus the Technics is a good choice for that reason alone. However, and I haven't heard one modified or not I do trust Marco's ears and the others such as Dave Cawley...if they say its as good as it is I think you can take that to the bank. However you may not like the sound or it may not suit your set up.


I do understand though where Shaun is coming from not every one wants to buy something and then have to rip it apart. I guess they can then buy one from Dave Cawley...complete and ready to go.

For me my true love is my Oracle Delphi mk4 and being honest it is as much about the looks as the sound.

http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/LondonSept07Hi-FiShowandHomehi-f-4.jpg


Regards D S D L

Haselsh1
02-04-2009, 15:25
Now that's what I call a turntable...!!! A massive piece of engineering and fantastic value for money. Someone here mentioned a Michell Orbe. That would be my first choice always if money was no object. It is...!

hifi_dave
02-04-2009, 15:33
Neil,
Is that a Parnassus on the end of your SME ? :scratch:

David

NRG
02-04-2009, 15:42
I personally feel people make too much of the neutral or faithful to the original angle. If a deck or other component adds something that makes the enjoyment of your system and music better then more power to it. I'm no fan of the LP12, I lived with a top spec one for 15years and was shocked when I heard a Gyrodeck for the first time, but many people like that presentation even if they have grown up with it and if it gives them enjoyment so be it.

I went from the LP12 to the Gyrodeck and even throughout upgrades to motors, power supplies and platters etc it was still too far the 'other way'...It was not until I bought a 45year old Lenco of Ebay did I realise the direction I wanted to go, the presentation suited me and my taste so I stuck with it....some foods still need a little seasoning to bring out the best in them!

Although I'm currently running an SP10 in a Slatedeck plinth I don't seem to get the same pleasure from it as I did the Lenco....so the Lenco may make a re-appearance later this year....we'll see...I still have to get the Kontra B re-tipped though. :(

Beechwoods
02-04-2009, 16:11
Thanks Neil (is it Neil, I have trouble sometimes trying to remember everyone's names!), for mentioning the Lenco. You posted in the time it took me to read the prior posts and I think you made the first mention of it...

I have a GL75, unmodified, but in nice condition. Prior to that I had a Mk1 ProJect Debut. The ProJect was a depressing experience. Completely put me off vinyl. For a long while I just didn't think that vinyl could be any good without spending a fortune... thanks to people like Mike and Prince Of Darkness on here I hunted down a Lenco that was in bits, built a basic plinth (with help from Primalsea) and was thoroughly blown away.

My system comprises Quad amplification, and the Lenco works well with it. To my ears in unscientific listening tests my Lenco sounds just as good, if not slightly better, than my CDP through the Quad 33 and into the 303. It cost me about 100 total, excluding the NOS cartridge my dad had stashed away in 1973.

At it's price I would say that the Lenco is the best turntable you can get, without question. It is also extremely tweakable. I know some people swear by 45kg plinths and the like, mine is a lot lighter than that, though still reasonably weighty. It does not need a fortune spending in modifications. But if you want to spend a fortune, you can.

For that reason it has a niche. My motivations are to be honest broader than just great sound (which I think is Marco's singular motivation). Low price is a real motivation / necessity. 'Vintage' kit is also a motivation. And I'm also motivated by a desire to fish out of the mainstream as well (perhaps even be a bit contrary :lol:) The Lenco ticks all those boxes.

If I had all the money in the world I'd keep my Lenco, and get a Garrard 301, and an EMT 948. But then I'd have to buy a new house to keep them in, so it would get very expensive.

Great thread by the way!

NRG
02-04-2009, 16:24
Yeah it's Neal, should add that to my sig!

I have the GL99, it's still boxed in it's 1970's plywood plinth. I re-furbished it... replaced the idler wheel and bearing (then upgraded the bearing with a kit from the old Lenco Lovers forum) and also dismantled, cleaned and lubed the motor, it's absolutely fine. A 301 would be nice but I don't have any urge to go and seek one out! Especially at the prices they command nowadays.

Haselsh1
02-04-2009, 16:27
Now look, I could be wrong here but my opinion of the LP12 from what I have heard from others, friends included, is that it is a heavy, ploddy jazz kind of deck with a completely overblown fat and slow sound. Now this may be well out of the truth but it's my impression. By the way, I have heard an LP12 only three times at Hi-Fi shows and my long lasting memory of it was when someone tapped the table it was on and the arm did the skaters waltz.

There must be so much more out there at a reasonable price but I just think these things are so grossly overpriced. Given the profit margin on Hi-Fi there's no way I'm ever gonna buy brand new so I guess I'll just have to keep checking out ebay. Like I said before, I have ages yet.

Beechwoods
02-04-2009, 16:29
I have the GL99, it's still boxed in it's 1970's plywood plinth.

Ooh... a GL99. Very nice. Prices rapidly ascending hot on the heels of the 301 and 401... It'd be an 88 for me if I were to go for an 'armless' Lenco. I prefer the look :o The integrated strobe on the 99 is nice though.

I'm just waiting for the great unwashed to catch on to the 75 and see their prices go through the roof (200 is through the roof for me ;))

Mike
02-04-2009, 16:32
I'm just waiting for the great unwashed to catch on to the 75 and see their prices go through the roof (200 is through the roof for me ;))

People have been waiting for this for ages... Doesn't seem to be happening though. :)

Spectral Morn
02-04-2009, 16:33
Neil,
Is that a Parnassus on the end of your SME ? :scratch:

David

Hi Dave

No its a Clavis. I was unable to afford the Parnassus when I worked in the trade back then about 1993. I bought the Oracle S/H from a colleague who upgraded :lol:to a Basis Ovation (he thought it was an upgrade I thought he had ruined the sound of his system) the Oracle was more musical and delicate. I once ran an Eminent Technology ET2 air bearing arm on it(made my own arm board, which I still have). Alas I lost my job back in 1995 just a week after I got back from my honey moon (during the last major recession). So I had to sell the ET2 :doh::steam::( Big mistake.

http://www.eminent-tech.com/graphics/tonearmparts.jpg

Thanks Shaun its a lovely TT but even S/H they are still selling for about 1000 without arm (mk1,2,3 less but I don't rate them as much. The mk4 was amazing in its day and for me it was love at first sight and then luckily also at first listen) I feel its still the most beautiful TT to my eyes.


Regards D S D L

NRG
02-04-2009, 16:39
Now look, I could be wrong here but my opinion of the LP12 from what I have heard from others, friends included, is that it is a heavy, ploddy jazz kind of deck with a completely overblown fat and slow sound. Now this may be well out of the truth but it's my impression. By the way, I have heard an LP12 only three times at Hi-Fi shows and my long lasting memory of it was when someone tapped the table it was on and the arm did the skaters waltz.

There must be so much more out there at a reasonable price but I just think these things are so grossly overpriced. Given the profit margin on Hi-Fi there's no way I'm ever gonna buy brand new so I guess I'll just have to keep checking out ebay. Like I said before, I have ages yet.

It was the continued upgrade path of the LP12 that finally made me look around, I couldn't justify anymore expenditure when the last upgrade was supposedly the 'ultimate'... the Lingo MKII was the last straw.

I have a very good friend with a top spec LP12, keel the lot and it's a very very nice deck, he loves it and I can't argue with that, its not at all ploddy in the bass or coloured as far as I can tell but....whoa...the price! Eye watering.

Spectral Morn
02-04-2009, 16:41
Now look, I could be wrong here but my opinion of the LP12 from what I have heard from others, friends included, is that it is a heavy, ploddy jazz kind of deck with a completely overblown fat and slow sound. Now this may be well out of the truth but it's my impression. By the way, I have heard an LP12 only three times at Hi-Fi shows and my long lasting memory of it was when someone tapped the table it was on and the arm did the skaters waltz.

There must be so much more out there at a reasonable price but I just think these things are so grossly overpriced. Given the profit margin on Hi-Fi there's no way I'm ever gonna buy brand new so I guess I'll just have to keep checking out ebay. Like I said before, I have ages yet.


Hi Shaun

Only if you let a Linn dealer set one up. I have done one (Lp12) in the last few weeks before I lost my job and I broke all the stupid Linn rules-tightening everything up until its crazy like its super glued together. I loosened everything. Just tightening enough...so I added a degree of compliance. My boss said it was the best sounding Linn he had ever heard...he hates Linn Lp12's...almost to wanting to destroy ever Linn in the world. Crazy but there you have it.


Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
02-04-2009, 16:44
It was the continued upgrade path of the LP12 that finally made me look around, I couldn't justify anymore expenditure when the last upgrade was supposedly the 'ultimate'... the Lingo MKII was the last straw.

I have a very good friend with a top spec LP12, keel the lot and it's a very very nice deck, he loves it and I can't argue with that, its not at all ploddy in the bass or coloured as far as I can tell but....whoa...the price! Eye watering.


Hi Neal

Yes trying to fix what was perfect....everyone else was wrong ;) The cost though is madness IMHO. To fix perfection:lol::lol::lol:


Regards D S D L

griffo104
02-04-2009, 16:54
Now look, I could be wrong here but my opinion of the LP12 from what I have heard from others, friends included, is that it is a heavy, ploddy jazz kind of deck with a completely overblown fat and slow sound. Now this may be well out of the truth but it's my impression. By the way, I have heard an LP12 only three times at Hi-Fi shows and my long lasting memory of it was when someone tapped the table it was on and the arm did the skaters waltz.

There must be so much more out there at a reasonable price but I just think these things are so grossly overpriced. Given the profit margin on Hi-Fi there's no way I'm ever gonna buy brand new so I guess I'll just have to keep checking out ebay. Like I said before, I have ages yet.

For me a good 2nd hand LP12 is one of the great bargains in hifi. I find it difficult to justify the price of a full decknowadays, especially as the Orbe SE is a better deck in my opinion, but 2nd hand they really do get you in to your record collection.

When I sold my deck I had nowhere to put it so I dumped it on the floor. A suspended wooden floor with very wonky floorboards. I played a couple of tracks for the buyer so he could check it out with me walking around the room - I weigh 17 stone and the needle didn't leave the groove once.

I also have Leak Lenco 75 all set for modifying.
As for the best decks ? Well it's a tough one but if I had the time and inclination one of the most musically rewarding decks I've ever heard was a modified Garrard 301 with a Hadcock arm and a cheapo Grado cart on it. Musically it was just so enjoyable and again it made you want to listen to music rather discuss the benefits of hifi flavours. A sublime setup.

hifi_dave
02-04-2009, 16:58
It wasn't Linn insisting on everything being tightened until it cracks, it was the self-promoted Guru's, some of whom still practice this 'art'.

I remember a dealer close to me who did just this for a period. I had several LP12's in with faults such as damaged Ittok's where the bolt had been tightened so far that the pillar was bent. P-clips where the nut had cut it right through, nuts and bolts with threads stripped, damaged headshells and cartridge bodies etc etc. I complained to Linn but they just advised me not to rock the bolt and sent me FOC spares to rectify the damage.

IMO, the LP12 is relatively 'bloated and slow' whatever you do with it, even love and care can't make a silk purse etc.

Having said that, there are thousands out there who love it. It's a well made, reliable machine with readily available spares and the ability to be updated from the very earliest decks.

Personally, I prefer a more 'accurate' sound rather than the colourations but others would argue differently.

DSJR
02-04-2009, 17:01
I tend to echo Dalek Supreme on this.

many years ago, I was taught by Jimmy Hughes (who himself was taught by Julian vereker) how to set up an LP12. Tighten everything "BUT" make sure the audio cable is properly clamped and not pinched as it passes through the P clip (many are pinched badly and it makes a difference).

The thing is, I heard a Spacedeck and it totally trounced the LP12. It was more "musical," more "rhythmic," far more enjoyable and "involving" to listen to and, to answer the "true to life/mastering/master-tape" argument, closer to the copy master tapes s I had. The Mentor/Decca Microscanner was almost identical and records sounded Sooooo good with this deck and into my ARC SP14 (I'd say the Croft SMA IV PP had as good a phono stage, despite the lack of "Wonder Caps").....

Many top end turntable systems used to sound lazy, as if all the life has been refined out of the music. The Decca and Mentor have precision, but there's a raw-ness I loved that brought LP's to life - and that's before I played uncompressed 12" singles where all the limiting was often switched off.......

So, to conclude, I'd suggest that a "closer to the original acetate/master tape" view is the correct one, as so much more music comes through, but I do object to the bass up-treble down balance of so many cartridges. Set your system up around this incorrect balance and there's no way CD in any shape or form will work. My system sounds grand on CD and it's the vinyl that currently sounds too safe (the Dual is good with ATC actives, big and small, but the Crown/BC2 combo needs a bit more "drama" from my LP spinner).

Forget most LP12's. Pre-Cirkus ones NEED to be super-tight, but later ones need to be firmly tight but no more as Dalek Supreme said above. Whatever, things have moved on and the LP12 is now trading on its reputation and the stupid retail prices these days are just too greedy IMO and indicate desperation as the retail prices keep climbing and demand falls for new ones (I very recently heard of yet another UK firm giving up majority ownership to a creditor (?) in the far east - such a shame).

DSJR
02-04-2009, 17:05
It wasn't Linn insisting on everything being tightened until it cracks, it was the self-promoted Guru's, some of whom still practice this 'art'.

I remember a dealer close to me who did just this for a period. I had several LP12's in with faults such as damaged Ittok's where the bolt had been tightened so far that the pillar was bent. P-clips where the nut had cut it right through, nuts and bolts with threads stripped, damaged headshells and cartridge bodies etc etc. I complained to Linn but they just advised me not to rock the bolt and sent me FOC spares to rectify the damage.



Hope that wasn't me you're complaining about, old chum???!!! :lolsign: I can think of several dealers to the south and east of us who did things tight but missed all the basic aspects too and at least one customer who took matters into their own hands with catastrophic results.......

hifi_dave
02-04-2009, 17:26
No not you. They weren't as close as you and often had Linn days. Does that help ? :scratch:

We used to get lots of LP12's in for rectification following their Linn days. Always gave us a chuckle.:lolsign:

hifi_dave
02-04-2009, 17:28
I'm really enjoying these 'smiley' things. Can't wait to use the big jobbie but I'm rationing myself. :smoking:

Marco
02-04-2009, 17:34
....some foods still need a little seasoning to bring out the best in them!


Indeed, Neal.

But the point I'm making is that the reason it may need a little seasoning to bring out its "best" could be more to do with the preferences of your palate than the inherent quality of the food!

As any chef of repute will tell you, the best ingredients speak for themselves without the need for artificial additives ;)


Musically it was just so enjoyable and again it made you want to listen to music rather discuss the benefits of hifi flavours.


Yes, Griffo, but I'm talking about the 'flavour' of music, not the 'flavour' of hi-fi!

The fact is if you're hearing more of what's actually on the record with less sonic signature from the turntable, then by definition whichever turntable does this is the most 'musical' :)

The ol' fruitbox I'm afraid is, well, just too fruity! :lol:

Marco.

Marco
02-04-2009, 17:37
I'm really enjoying these 'smiley' things. Can't wait to use the big jobbie but I'm rationing myself. :smoking:

LOL. Yes unfortunately Tony doesn't like them on pfm, so as they say, 'fill your boots'! :lolsign:

Marco.

Mike
02-04-2009, 17:43
Well, that's the Technics SL1210 out then... just look at all the 'additives' in needs just to taste nice! :lol:

DSJR
02-04-2009, 17:44
HiFi Dave, I know EXACTLY who you're talking about, and it's the two I had in mind also (phew!!!!! - my reputation's intact - what's left of it...... ;))

I thought the Cirkus LP12 was a huge improvement, but the sound "darkened" quite noticeably to my ears. The ARO/Geddon made the thing sound like it did in the seventies (a positive step backwards IMO) and I never got to hear one with the Nima, which I think would have been a good match. Like I said, the Spacedeck trounced it anyway (Marco, I know you love the SL1200 series very much, but Tom Fletcher just seems to have a "feel" for what's right in engineering (if not production finish) and his "right" is just so much better than most others IMO and the sound produced by his designs, which are almost immune to what they're located on, is excellent in all the "Linn" areas. Mention an NAS on the Naim forum and one is summarily dismissed as only the "South Midlands Guru" can set up an LP12 properly and any other deck set up by anyone else is inferior.....

Beechwoods
02-04-2009, 17:53
http://media.bigoo.ws/content/smile/signs/signs_103.gif

Nice new avatar Dave!

DSJR
02-04-2009, 17:57
I remember that evening very well. Changed my life it did :)

Marco
02-04-2009, 17:58
Well, that's the Technics SL1210 out then... just look at all the 'additives' in needs just to taste nice! :lol:

Indeed, Mikey, but since the reference in this discussion is a modified 1210, not a standard one, your point although correct, is moot ;)

Marco.

P.S Shaun, the only plastic on a 1210 is in the lid!

Spectral Morn
02-04-2009, 18:02
HiFi Dave, I know EXACTLY who you're talking about, and it's the two I had in mind also (phew!!!!! - my reputation's intact - what's left of it...... ;))

I thought the Cirkus LP12 was a huge improvement, but the sound "darkened" quite noticeably to my ears. The ARO/Geddon made the thing sound like it did in the seventies (a positive step backwards IMO) and I never got to hear one with the Nima, which I think would have been a good match. Like I said, the Spacedeck trounced it anyway (Marco, I know you love the SL1200 series very much, but Tom Fletcher just seems to have a "feel" for what's right in engineering (if not production finish) and his "right" is just so much better than most others IMO and the sound produced by his designs, which are almost immune to what they're located on, is excellent in all the "Linn" areas. Mention an NAS on the Naim forum and one is summarily dismissed as only the "South Midlands Guru" can set up an LP12 properly and any other deck set up by anyone else is inferior.....

What a load off Crap anyone(with lots of TT setup experience)can set up a Linn, heck it was my first. I see Dave from your Avatar you don't have a Linn Jig....that rules you out of the game :lol::lol::lol:

One of the best vinyl sounds from the past was a Notingham Mentor Reference which I heard at Vinyl Tube Audio in London WOW.

I should have said that despite that Linn being very good I would not have had the gift of it.:sofa: Don't shoot me...:laser:


Regards D S D L

pure sound
02-04-2009, 18:11
I like orchestral & piano music. Can someone explain why a turntable that can't play either very well should even be considered as a reference point when there are so many around that will? :confused:

Spectral Morn
02-04-2009, 18:13
Hi Guy



? :confused:



Regards D S D L

Mike
02-04-2009, 18:13
Indeed, Mikey, but since the reference in this discussion is a modified 1210, not a standard one, your point although correct, is moot ;)

Yes, modified by adding, err, 'additives'! :lolsign:

I'm unsure what 'issue' this thread is intended to get to the bottom of TBH! :scratch:


Are we striving for 'flavours' with our turntable choices or simply the revealing of what's on the record with minimal 'artificial additives'?

Hmmm, my opinion would be 'who cares? it's all about getting the most enjoyment'! If that means adding extra salt to suit my palate, then so be it! :)

Beechwoods
02-04-2009, 18:15
Would a 20 band graphic equaliser to add a bit of oomph count as well ;) ??

Marco
02-04-2009, 18:19
Marco, I know you love the SL1200 series very much...


Dave, nope, correction... I LOVE whatever turntable reproduces the music I LOVE most on vinyl without being aware of the turntable! ;)

*So far* outside of an EMT or SP10, a modified SL-1210 is the only turntable I've heard which allows me to do that. "Love" will always be reserved for the enjoyment of my favourite music, not the turntable which aids the listening process.

Marco.

hifi_dave
02-04-2009, 18:22
Hi Guy, ya'll right ?

Which turntable are you talking about ? You've lost me.:scratch:

Sorry about using the 'smiley' but Marco told me to use them whenever I can and I'm obeying orders.:ner:

NRG
02-04-2009, 18:22
Indeed, Neal.

But the point I'm making is that the reason it may need a little seasoning to bring out its "best" could be more to do with the preferences of your palate than the inherent quality of the food!

As any chef of repute will tell you, the best ingredients speak for themselves without the need for artificial additives ;)

.

Well quite...but who's talking of artificial...even the best food / ingredients still need seasoning...as any Chef of repute will tell you...the analogy is flawed.

What was the point of this thread again? :confused:

Spectral Morn
02-04-2009, 18:23
Would a 20 band graphic equaliser to add a bit of oomph count as well ;) ??


There is only one use for such a thing http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii364/davros124/daleks.gif Target practice for EXTERMINATION. :lolsign:



Regards D S D L

NRG
02-04-2009, 18:24
I like orchestral & piano music. Can someone explain why a turntable that can't play either very well should even be considered as a reference point when there are so many around that will? :confused:

Because there's no accounting for taste...

Mike
02-04-2009, 18:28
could be more to do with the preferences of your palette than the inherent quality of the food!

Why would a flat wooden crate like structure care about the quality of food? :scratch: :lolsign:

Marco
02-04-2009, 18:34
I'm unsure what 'issue' this thread is intended to get to the bottom of TBH! :scratch:


The "issue", or point of this thread, is essentially not to 'shoot the messenger' when the messenger is simply telling you the 'truth' ;)

Marco.

Mike
02-04-2009, 18:37
Huh?

pure sound
02-04-2009, 18:37
Hi Guy, ya'll right ?

Which turntable are you talking about ? You've lost me.:scratch:

Sorry about using the 'smiley' but Marco told me to use them whenever I can and I'm obeying orders.:ner:

Hi Dave,

Well, put it this way. It's not a NAS, Technics DD, Raven, Idler driven Garrard, Brinkmann, Kuzma, Verdier or SME to name but a few. ;)

All of the above can play piano & orchestral music without getting too muddled.

DSJR
02-04-2009, 18:39
What a load off Crap anyone(with lots of TT setup experience)can set up a Linn, heck it was my first. I see Dave from your Avatar you don't have a Linn Jig....that rules you out of the game :lol::lol::lol:

One of the best vinyl sounds from the past was a Notingham Mentor Reference which I heard at Vinyl Tube Audio in London WOW.

I should have said that despite that Linn being very good I would not have had the gift of it.:sofa: Don't shoot me...:laser:


Regards D S D L

Now listen 'ere sonny, I had a Linn jig, a Philips rubber mat with holes in to catch the bits and a special custom station at the back of the shop with all the bits readily to hand. Bearing in mind my employer was one of the biggest Linn dealers of all, the two shops getting through 20 LP12's a week at the time and around 50 assorted Rega's per month, we were in at the centre of the "Linn" crowd in the early eighties.....:gig:

The height of the bar stool I sat on and the height of the station allowed me to do much of the donkey-work with the deck propped up on my forehead before final set-up in the jig, which I reckon has been thrown out now the shop I worked in for 17 years is B&O only now.

In more recent years, the other Linn dealer I worked for had a more conventional arrangement, where all of the setup work had to be done with the LP12 in the jig. They did have the official Linn toolkit though and three yellow plastic component boxes with various arm and deck bits contained within (we had little wall mounted stack-a-bin things). I found the arm-cable dressing a bit fiddly done this way compared to my more intimate approach, but the Lp12 was a much simpler thing to set up by then (plinth much better made and the bolts and sub-chassis were set up true and parallel at the factory).

Anyway, I think the old fruitbox has had enough exposure for one day.. :cool:

Marco
02-04-2009, 18:40
Why would a flat wooden crate like structure care about the quality of food?

Indeed! I of course meant 'palate' - my wee brain only functions up until 6 o'clock :lol:

Marco.

Mike
02-04-2009, 18:42
Indeed! I of course meant 'palate' - my wee brain only functions up until 6 o'clock :lol:

Marco.

Blimey... I know the feeling. All too well in fact! :lolsign:

Beechwoods
02-04-2009, 18:47
:lol: Marco tripped up on his culinary spelling. There's a first!

Spectral Morn
02-04-2009, 18:51
Now listen 'ere sonny, I had a Linn jig, a Philips rubber mat with holes in to catch the bits and a special custom station at the back of the shop with all the bits readily to hand. Bearing in mind my employer was one of the biggest Linn dealers of all, the two shops getting through 20 LP12's a week at the time and around 50 assorted Rega's per month, we were in at the centre of the "Linn" crowd in the early eighties.....:gig:

The height of the bar stool I sat on and the height of the station allowed me to do much of the donkey-work with the deck propped up on my forehead before final set-up in the jig, which I reckon has been thrown out now the shop I worked in for 17 years is B&O only now.

In more recent years, the other Linn dealer I worked for had a more conventional arrangement, where all of the setup work had to be done with the LP12 in the jig. They did have the official Linn toolkit though and three yellow plastic component boxes with various arm and deck bits contained within (we had little wall mounted stack-a-bin things). I found the arm-cable dressing a bit fiddly done this way compared to my more intimate approach, but the Lp12 was a much simpler thing to set up by then (plinth much better made and the bolts and sub-chassis were set up true and parallel at the factory).

Anyway, I think the old fruitbox has had enough exposure for one day.. :cool:

I used a wall mounted Target wall shelf with the shelf removed for decks needing work underneath and for those that didn't the shelf in place. I still do at home. Compared to a Roksan Xerxes a Linn is a breeze to set up....but the Roksan sounds better IMHO. I hate setting up Roksan's platter off, platter on errrrrrrrrrr. Why place a critical part of the sub chassis adjustment where you can't get to it, stupid IMHO



Regards D S D L

Marco
02-04-2009, 18:55
Huh?

Jeezuz, I thought you were smart!

I think perhaps you need to re-read the opening post of the thread... However, allow daddy to explain (sort of :eyebrows:):

Confucious say, glasshoppa, that some people they say modified 1210 not 'play music', but it not that 1210 'not play music', it that 1210 play music on record without sore finga (salt & vinegar)...

;)

Marco.

Marco
02-04-2009, 18:58
:lol: Marco tripped up on his culinary spelling. There's a first!

Even the greatest of us are fallible, and besides I hadn't had my dinner yet :eyebrows:

Marco.

Mike
02-04-2009, 19:15
Jeezuz, I thought you were smart!

I think perhaps you need to re-read the opening post of the thread... However, allow daddy to explain (sort of :eyebrows:):

Confucious say, glasshoppa, that some people they say modified 1210 not 'play music', but it not that 1210 'not play music', it that 1210 play music on record without sore finga (salt & vinegar)...

;)

Marco.

Oi you!... It's after 6pm :ner: :upyours:

The Grand Wazoo
02-04-2009, 22:35
I don't believe any deck/system is neutral, if so then I would hear what I hear at concerts and I don't and never have heard that from a hifi.


You could put 10 od us in a room and ask us to come up with something accurate and neutral and you would get 10 different answers. It's the reason why some guitarists prefer and Gibson to Fender - cos it sounds better to them. It's flavoured to their taste.

I was going to post exactly that.

Whether they admit the existence of them or not, everyone makes a significant compromise when they select their components.
You will never, ever make a hi-fi sound and feel like real, live music.

.........and anyway.........

......what does the live music of your preference really sound like? Who knows what it would sound like tonight if the guitar roadie had picked up cable 'A' instead of cable 'B'?.........or if the guy on the board had nipped up the collar of that connector just a bit tighter...........or if the speakers had been placed four inches to the right............or if they had been playing in a different venue??????????????

(..........either way, I prefer a Gibson !!!!!)

Marco
02-04-2009, 23:03
I couldn't agree more, Chris. However that's a slightly different argument.

My point was that, in my experience, low-mass belt-drive turntables such as Regas and LP12s, and other decks of their ilk, impose more of a sonic signature - a 'flavour', if you will, on the sound than a good direct-drive T/T or idler/rim-drive does, mainly as a result of the former's inferior speed stability, which I'm sure could be measured. It's the impact on music of the latter which I feel is highly significant.

If a turntable fails to operate consistently at the right speed during playback then it is fundamentally broken from the outset.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with liking a T/T which gives the sound a specific 'flavour', if we find that flavour pleasant, but when that flavour isn't there on other, arguably more accurate T/Ts, then one shouldn't then assume that the turntable in question is 'unmusical' simply because it delivers a sonic 'flavour' that is different to what we expect or consider as 'musical'. I could mention sugary-sweet tea and well-done steaks covered in sauce again but I won't ;)

Basically, I get the feeling that often when people use the word 'musical' to describe the sound of a turntable, what they actually mean is that the sound has a 'flavour' which they consider as 'musical', rather than the turntable in question intrinsically revealing more music from records with the highest fidelity and least coloration possible, and hence more of the actual music recorded in the grooves, which is ultimately what 'musical' truly means.

For me, the latter is what a top-notch turntable is all about and nothing else :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
02-04-2009, 23:18
Yes, I completely understand your point, but you may be missing mine.....

In respect of speed stability, your TT may be superior to some others, I don't know. But any component adds a flavour to the music - it's just that your ears don't hear it. Now, that's not a bad thing. It's great that you've found something that does it for you.

Now tell me your amp doesn't add a flavour all of it's own, or your cables.....or your room.

You see what I mean? - Perhaps in point of fact, there is no such thing as 'uncoloured' - it could be that you, & I, & everyone else, have found the tint that best suits us!

Marco
02-04-2009, 23:32
No I understand what you mean, and I agree of course, but if we try to minimise coloration or 'sonic signature' where possible within the individual components we choose to make up our systems then, cumulatively, the effect of 'flavouring' will be minimised and we should get closer to what was originally recorded on the record or disc, no? :)

Then of course after that, as you say, we've got the 'flavour' of the room to consider!

Like I said before, I don't want to hear the turntable - I want to hear the music on the record.

I personally hate tailoring the sound on purpose (creating a 'flavour') if I can get away with it; when you start consciously doing that you're defeating the purpose of having a 'hi-end' hi-fi system, IMO. I also think some people should look up the meaning of 'high fidelity' and what building a system around those principles entails.

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
02-04-2009, 23:42
I certainly agree with the notion of removing the flavours we can hear, but if you can't hear the flavour that I can hear, it will sound great to you and crap to me. You will almost certainly hear something you don't like (unless you built the system).

I guess the most fundamental question is:
Do your ears hear what my ears hear?
The answer is most certainly: 'No'.

So who's right?

Marco
02-04-2009, 23:54
I certainly agree with the notion of removing the flavours we can hear, but if you can't hear the flavour that I can hear, it will sound great to you and crap to me.


You may be right, but my view is that when discerning listeners (people who aren't interested in creating 'flavours' on purpose with hi-fi) are presented with two turntables playing an identical piece of music, the one that imposes the least signature on the music is the one which is usually deemed as superior.

It was interesting to note some of the comments we received about my modified 1210 in the AOS room at the recent Scalford Hall show, where people were saying that they had never heard a turntable sound so "stable" and so "real" and "all of a piece" before (these are actual quotes) - and guess what T/Ts they had at home? The usual low-mass belt-drive suspects! :eyebrows:

Anyway I'm off to bed now, old chap. We shall continue our chat tomorrow :goodnight:

Marco.

Haselsh1
03-04-2009, 07:54
You may be right, but my view is that when discerning listeners (people who aren't interested in creating 'flavours' on purpose with hi-fi) are presented with two turntables playing an identical piece of music, the one that imposes the least signature on the music is the one which is usually deemed as superior.


How true that is. The most neutral will almost always be viewed as the most accurate. And of course the most neutral will be viewed as the least coloured. I used to have a Rock MkII until I heard a friends KAM DJ deck. This was far more lively and far less coloured than the Rock. I just couldn't live with it anymore. The Linn Basik that I have now is purely a stopgap, purely a temporary fix until the right thing comes along.

One thing I would like to say is that I find these DJ decks very digital in their presentation in that they are very dynamic and very uncoloured with a slightly forward sound. Is that good...? Well it is if that is your preference. This now becomes the key. What is your preference as that is the sole thing that makes it right or wrong. I personally don't want an overblown woolly sound that is full of flab. I want something that is trim, fast and lean... just how I like my women...lol. I have an age to make up my mind as I now have no money (again) but it's going to be a journey full of dangers as I will be buying secondhand only. I will not pay twice the true value for an item just because Joe Bloggs Audio has a shop.

I will get back to this point in the future whereby I have to decide which deck to buy. Given what I have experienced on this forum to date, I'll get plenty of help.

Mike
03-04-2009, 07:54
My point was that, in my experience, low-mass belt-drive turntables such as Regas and LP12s, and other decks of their ilk, impose more of a sonic signature

What's with this 'low-mass' thing?... you mention it quite often in various threads!

Sticking with the LP12 V SL-1210 for now we get:

SL-1210 @ 11kg (source - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/228)

LP12 @ 10kg (source - http://linn.co.uk/files/0981e726/Sondek%20LP12%20Product%20Information%20(1008).pdf )


So the SL1210 only weighs 10% more than the LP12, and the LP12 doesn't include an arm!... hardly a vast difference I'd say. :scratch:

And... oh never mind.

I'm bored with this Technics V 'Fruit Box' thing now. Put another record on please! :)

Marco
03-04-2009, 09:22
It's not a "Technics vs. fruitbox thing", Mikey - those are only two examples used during the discussion. It's about being aware of what 'musical' actually is when applied to a turntable :)


Sticking with the LP12 V SL-1210 for now we get:

SL-1210 @ 11kg (source - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...Product_ID/228)

LP12 @ 10kg (source - http://linn.co.uk/files/0981e726/Son...n%20(1008).pdf)


So the SL1210 only weighs 10% more than the LP12, and the LP12 doesn't include an arm!... hardly a vast difference I'd say :scratch:


No, no, you're completely missing the point... :doh:

A 'hi-mass' belt-drive turntable looks like this (the tangential arm is incidental):

http://www.avguide.com/review/kuzma-stabi-xl-turntable-air-line-arm-walker-proscenium-black-diamond-record-player

I.E, big, heavy, bulky, 'massy' - in order to deal effectively with the issue of seriously accurate speed stabilty, which direct-drives like the SP10 and SL-1210 get right without the need for all that 'mass' and bulk.

As an aside, that'll be one hell of a turntable (I rate Kuzma T/Ts and arms highly) but how many people have got the room to house one of those beasts, not to mention the necessary funds to acquire it? An SP10, for example, is a far more 'elegant' (i.e neater) and cost-effective solution to the same problem.

Having observed the Kuzma above, you should now realise why things like an LP12 or a Rega are deemed as 'low-mass' ;)

Marco.

Peter Stockwell
03-04-2009, 09:23
Mike,

I don't think that the relative mass of the Teccie and the Linn comes into play particularly. One of the advantages, to me, of the Technics is it's relatively, compared to the bastin plinthed 401 I had, low mass. I'd wager that the Teccie platter is significantly lighter than the LP12s.

cheese

Marco
03-04-2009, 09:33
I've just explained the 'high-mass/low mass' thing, dude :smoking:

The 'high-mass' belt-drive route and that of high quality direct-drive, with reference to seriously accuate speed stability, are one and the same. It's just that the former requires a behemoth statement of metal in your room and the latter, erm, doesn't!

Marco.

Mike
03-04-2009, 10:26
Having observed the Kuzma above, you should now realise why things like an LP12 or a Rega are deemed as 'low-mass' ;)

Agreed... compared to decks like that most other TT's are low mass, no matter what drive system is used.

I'll stick with my UFO. Extraterrestrial space ships can defy the laws of Earth physics anyway! :eyebrows: :lol:

I think all decks add some flavour to greater or lesser degree's, what matters most is that it's to 'your' taste. The rest is just gravy. ;)

Maybe this thread should be in the foodie section! :lolsign:

Haselsh1
03-04-2009, 11:37
Whose heard of a PID Algorithm... Me for one. What does it do...? It controls things like quartz servo's. That includes the speed stability on a Technics or similar deck. How does it do this...? By over compensating then undercompensating then overcompensating then undercompensating ad infinitum. The end result is that it never actually meets the end speed. It is always hunting one way or the other. The PID functions of the algorithm can be adjusted to minimise the hunting but it still never gets there. So what is the error...? Well, the accuracy is probably out of measurement but please do not assume that just becuase it is digital and quartz it is infallible... It is not...!!! This is basic engineering and maths combined.

Dave Cawley
03-04-2009, 11:48
This is simply not true. Direct drives are controlled by a PLL and that is an analogue device. This is an old and very stale chestnut!!

:bag:

Dave

Haselsh1
03-04-2009, 12:05
I agree that a Phase Locked Loop is an analogue device but there is no reference to the Technics being controlled by one. In fact, there is no reference that even KAM decks are controlled by one.

The point of this is just to make the point... digital and quartz does not mean it is the best. The finest photographs the world has ever seen have all been shot using film and still are albeit using bloody great sheets of film but if we are coming down to subtleties then everything must be included. Something must be responsible for a Technics or KAM or whatever being so neutral. I haven't a clue what that could be but this is a brill thread.

Dave Cawley
03-04-2009, 12:40
You don't need a reference, you just need knowledge.

I agree there are bad direct drives, brilliant direct drives, bad belt drives and brilliant belt drives.

But please do not attribute imaginary characteristics to the SL-1200 or any deck come to that!

BTW, like your photography!! :kiss:

:bag:

Dave

Haselsh1
03-04-2009, 13:14
I heard a KAM DDX4500 played against a Rock MkII. The Rock was fitted with my Alphason arm and an Ortofon cartridge and the KAM obliterated it. Now I am aware that this deck is only around 250 or so quid and is probably very mediocre compared to the hallowed SL1210 G5 but it was very good. In terms of looks the KAM obliterated the Rock as well. Just were does this leave things...??? I don't know. I just know that there has to be a good reason when we are constantly being told that 2k decks are worth 2k of our money. Are they...???

Haselsh1
03-04-2009, 13:25
If a deck costs you the customer two thousand pounds then the dealer has paid around eight hundred pounds plus VAT. What true value does that put on to a 2k turntable...??? What are we actually getting for our money in real terms and are we then to believe that this deck is so truly wonderful...??? What makes a true Hi-Fi deck true Hi-Fi...??? If the sound of the Worlds supposed No1 turntable is so coloured and the engineering so limited, why is it so praised above say, a Technics SL1210 G5. I'd rather buy the Technics brand new than an LP12 secondhand and twenty years old. For me, it's a question of value. Secondly, it's a question of music.

Mike
03-04-2009, 13:48
But what does the SL-1200/1210 cost with all the modifications fitted? (I don't think my Denon is going to have cost much less when I've finished BTW).

And how do we measure 'value'? :scratch:

Marco
03-04-2009, 13:57
I would just like to state that Mike's Denon 'UFO' comes into the same category as the Techys with regards to speed stability.

Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha, Sony, Marantz, and a whole host of others, have all at some point made just as good (arguably even better) direct-drive T/Ts as Technics - it's just that the SL-1200/1210 is the only one currently available new in the UK, hence why it is discussed so much and also in terms of being modified.

National Panasonic (Technics) aren't the only company able to do direct-drive properly!

I just thank God that the DJs adoped it as their 'reference' T/T, otherwise in its original guise as a hi-end hi-fi turntable it would have gone the way of the Dodo years ago, just like the T/Ts of some of the manufacturers above... We slag it off for being a 'DJ deck' but forget that it was DJs who saved it (and vinyl itself)!

Marco.

Mike
03-04-2009, 14:04
I guess I'm asking; "even if the SL-1200 (or similar) comes in at 1500(ish), what else is on the market with similar or better performance for that price"?

How the hell do we put a 'value' on these sort of things? :scratch:

Marco
03-04-2009, 14:20
Mikey,

All-in-all, I reckon it's cost me around 2k to get my Techy where it is now - but so far I've not heard anything under 5k that significantly betters it in terms of the traits we've been discussing on this thread; i.e. getting 'closer to the music'.

A Brinkmann La Grange, Kuzma, SME or Platine Verdier would give it a run for its money in that area, but then one is also suitably paying for the privilege of ownership.

At the other end of things is a brand new 'fully pimped' LP12 with Keel, etc. At around 10k it is frankly obscene if sound-per-pound value is of primary importance, and unless you're a Lottery winner why shouldn't it be?

Marco.

Mike
03-04-2009, 14:39
All-in-all, I reckon it's cost me around 2k to get my Techy where it is now - but so far I've not heard anything under 5k that significantly betters it in terms of the traits we've been discussing on this thread; i.e. getting 'closer to the music'.

Well, I can believe that.

But how do we put a 'value' on these things? :confused:

'One man's meat is another man's poison' and all that... I don't think there are any 'right or 'wrong' answers TBH! ;)

griffo104
03-04-2009, 14:45
The Technics also benefits from being produced by a manufacturer capable of producing things in mass. The reason the Technics was so popular with djs was down to it's build and reliability - I have a few dj friends and none of them will look at anything else.

Its become more popular in the hifiworld because of forums like this proving that with some mods it's 'acceptable' to have a deck such as this. Something the printed media has refused to accept.

For 2k there are a lot of very good decks - Acoustic Solid, Roksan,Michell, NS, Clearaudio all make very good decks withing this price limit. All are primarily designed by a single person and built within a the skills avaiable. As someone mentioned the NA decks are very enjoyable to listen to but lack the build quality and finish of Michell - it's up to the person to decide on the sonic benefits and the reliability and build quality of a component.

The bare Technics decks are ok, they are nothing special, they need modifiying to fully realise their potential but then there are people doing the same to decks by Rega and Michell. Companies have being making mods to the LP12 for years and it's quite easy to purchase a 2nd hand LP12 and get third part mods which easily compete (or better) the full on brand new LP12.

The Technics has good speed stability, good reliability and thanks to the dj world, plenty of easy to get hold of 2nd hand decks. It's a good starting point to add 1k of mods and still come in around 1250 to 1500.

Personally at that price I'd still take a NAS or a Gyro which give a different presntation that I prefer over something like the Technics. As mentioned it's all down to the flavour.

There are too many variables involved to vinyl replay and too many different preferences to state a deck like the Technics has not had any involvement with condiments of some sort.

Persoanlly I like Michell decks because I can appreciate the design and build of a person and see the engineering quality, rather than owning something produced to fit a purpose and then having 3rd party mods to bring it up to an acceptable level. That's simply down to personal taste.

Marco
03-04-2009, 14:50
Hi Griffo,

Good post and nicely balanced. I completely agree :)

However, just one small thing, being such an annoying pedant :eyebrows::


Personally at that price I'd still take a NAS or a Gyro which give a different presntation that I prefer over something like the Technics. As mentioned it's all down to the flavour.


How would you know unless you've tasted the 'flavour' of a fully modified one? Am I correct in assuming that you haven't yet had that privilege? ;)

If your only basis from which to judge is a stock model then that's like saying you know what spaghetti tastes like because you've had Heinz! Sorry, I'm just lovin' these food analogies :lol:

Marco.

griffo104
03-04-2009, 15:08
Hi Griffo,

Good post and nicely balanced. I completely agree :)

However, just one small thing, being such an annoying pedant :eyebrows::



How would you know unless you've tasted the 'flavour' of a fully modified one? Am I correct in assuming that you haven't yet had that privilege? ;)

If your only basis from which to judge is a stock model then that's like saying you know what spaghetti tastes like because you've had Heinz! Sorry, I'm just lovin' these food analogies :lol:

Marco.

I refuse to eat Heinz products since they closed the HP Brown Sauce factory in Aston :(

This is a personal thing with regards to modifying equipment and I've argued over the point on another forum previously. I remain unimpressed by unmodified decks.

At some point in the future I will get a chance to listen to your deck and share a few :cool:

Modified kit can prove to be very cost effective and can bring great rewards from doing such work - I've heard modded kit quite a bit, some very good I think has been degraded by the mods but the owner is happy so who am I to argue ?

I had an argument over email with someone trying to get me to put my beloved Orbe under the knife for his mods when all I wanted was a simple piece of the jigsaw. He didn't understand why I didn't want to do it. Subsequently Michell brought their own mod out to solve the problem - considerably cheaper then the one I wanted to buy and more effective by those that had both.

I find the design and aesthetics to be just as enjoyable as the music - it's another reason why I have so much enjoyment out of Lyra carts, simply reading Jonathan Carr's attitude to design AND music appeals to my nature, therefore I am interested in his products.

John
03-04-2009, 16:33
I think for me around value there are few ways to go
For Ultimate value a Lenco would be a good place to start. You could get one up and running for a few hundred quid and it will sound pretty good if you spend more on plinth arm and Cart then you can really get some great sounds
Marco has mentioned the 1210 and if 2000 gets you close to a Brinkmann LaGrange or Raven AC well that is pretty good. I imagine that Mike's Denon suitably mod will get you close as well
The 401 or 301 on slate will get you close to a Brinkmann LaGrange as well
At some point I must hear what a mod 1210 can do.
I really miss my super scoutmaster!!!

Marco
03-04-2009, 16:39
Griffo,

I can understand that and respect your buying priorities :)

For me, I am influenced very little by those sorts of things. I'm not that bothered who made what, where it came from, or what the sensibilities of the designer are, as long as whatever it is sounds superb and is well built. I love retro and classic hi-fi, and so would rather own something old than new, given that it sounded as good or if not better than its newer counterpart. I also love 'proper', solid, engineering. However, I've yet to hear, say, a Garrard or Lenco that I'd swap for my modified 1210 - and old belt-drives, forget it!

An SP10 fully-tricked out with all modern bits including a nice Jelco 12" arm, not forgetting the ol' nail, the 103, is about as retro as I would go turntable-wise in order not to sacrifice on sound quality. Ultimately, Beechy is right: performance is what matters to me most with hi-fi, and what gets me 'closest to the music' whilst adding as little 'flavour' as possible.

Marco.

DSJR
03-04-2009, 16:50
I guess I'm asking; "even if the SL-1200 (or similar) comes in at 1500(ish), what else is on the market with similar or better performance for that price"?

How the hell do we put a 'value' on these sort of things? :scratch:

Ask HiFi Dave, he'll tell you!!!!! :) I think it was a standard version though without the tweaking....

You want to see a UK made vintage deck with lots of metal (88lbs of it I believe - I can tell you the flywheel was bloomin' 'eavy and needed special screw-in brackets to carry it into position)... Thank gawd the wall was made using engineering grade bricks. i could never have done this on a modern build, let alone the Suffolk Soft Reds the current property's built with..

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/1990Mentor2.jpg

Magna Audio
03-04-2009, 21:05
At some point I must hear what a mod 1210 can do.

You can hear mine with a full OL Rega RB250 arm tomorrow:)
Not fully loaded though.

Haselsh1
03-04-2009, 22:00
Mmmm... I'm now totally confused. Am I eventually to spend 500 on a brand new Technics SL1210 G5 or 500 quid on a what...??? 25 year old LP12...??? If I am to spend it on a Technics I have to be honest and say that I have no intention of ripping it apart but if I am to spend it on an LP12, then what...???

NRG
03-04-2009, 22:36
Well I think going for an LP12 would take you down the wrong road but who am I to say what is right for you...and thats the whole point...this is all subjective and down to personal choice. There is no right or wrong here just personal choice...

Dave Cawley
04-04-2009, 07:22
How many of you have heard, yes actually heard a Clearaudio Emotion package with an OC9 cartridge fitted? Or an Acoustic Solid Small Machine with SA-250ST arm and a Shelter 501 II ?? Or a SL-1210 with SME 3009 and OC9, or even Marco's SL-1210, Jelco SA750D and 103SA? :kiss:

And when you heard them, were they playing music you knew though amps you knew on speakers you knew in a room that you liked?

And then again, would you choose a different system for rock and one for classical?

Confused?

:bag:

Dave

John
04-04-2009, 07:32
Mmmm... I'm now totally confused. Am I eventually to spend 500 on a brand new Technics SL1210 G5 or 500 quid on a what...??? 25 year old LP12...??? If I am to spend it on a Technics I have to be honest and say that I have no intention of ripping it apart but if I am to spend it on an LP12, then what...???

Well think you need to hear what a 1210 can do mod there must be someone local near you you can hear a mod 1210 before u decide

John
04-04-2009, 07:39
How many of you have heard, yes actually heard a Clearaudio Emotion package with an OC9 cartridge fitted? Or an Acoustic Solid Small Machine with SA-250ST arm and a Shelter 501 II ?? Or a SL-1210 with SME 3009 and OC9, or even Marco's SL-1210, Jelco SA750D and 103SA? :kiss:

And when you heard them, were they playing music you knew though amps you knew on speakers you knew in a room that you liked?

And then again, would you choose a different system for rock and one for classical?

Confused?

:bag:



Dave

David most of us have to make the best choices we can and its just impossible to hear every combination in ideal circumstances for the majority of us; for me I want to have my cake and have icing on the top so I want a system that does nearly everything well but in the end for me I will value something that can rock well has a sense of aliveness to it and allows the music flow

break-3
04-04-2009, 08:21
How many of you have heard, yes actually heard a Clearaudio Emotion package with an OC9 cartridge fitted? Or an Acoustic Solid Small Machine with SA-250ST arm and a Shelter 501 II ?? Or a SL-1210 with SME 3009 and OC9, or even Marco's SL-1210, Jelco SA750D and 103SA? :kiss:

And when you heard them, were they playing music you knew though amps you knew on speakers you knew in a room that you liked?

And then again, would you choose a different system for rock and one for classical?

Confused?

:bag:

Dave

Hi Dave,
Assuming that you have heard all those combinations, would you care to share your experiences? ;)

Beechwoods
04-04-2009, 08:32
We will always have to make compromises in terms of what we can afford, get our hands on, or audition appropriately beforehand. Our ability to compare different machines will always be flawed - even professional reviewers will be unable to listen to everything out there in circumstances where meaningful comparisons can be made.

But we can probably reach a consensus of which machines are worth looking at at each price-point, and then have a fun time arguing over which of those is best. The lucky ones amongst us might even be able to do head-to-head comparisons but in the end it will only be their opinion...

Anyway, I'd always prefer to make my own mistakes rather than rely upon others to fashion an acceptable world view for me... the great thing about AOS is that there's no 'house sound' and we've real exponents of loads of different machines, so no-one's afraid of standing up for their kit, however unfashionable it is. Speaking personally of course :)

Dave Cawley
04-04-2009, 10:04
Hi Simon

Yes I have heard all in my own house. And every Avid model in a relaxing situation. They are all very good performers, each with their own strengths and weakness. If a customers asks me about a turntable, then I ask a whole series of questions that help narrow down the choice.

It is much like buying a car, so many out there, and all different, and most good.

:bag:

Regards

Dave

griffo104
06-04-2009, 07:40
Hi Simon

Yes I have heard all in my own house. And every Avid model in a relaxing situation. They are all very good performers, each with their own strengths and weakness. If a customers asks me about a turntable, then I ask a whole series of questions that help narrow down the choice.

It is much like buying a car, so many out there, and all different, and most good.

:bag:

Regards

Dave

Good post Dave, absoultely spot on. there are no right or wrong answers just what suits the persons taste in music. I can see completely where Marco is coming from with his modded Technics and where someone like myself comes from who wants to appreciate the designers vision. We both end up with a setup that allows us to enjoy music the way we want to.

Now when it comes to digital... :doh:

The Grand Wazoo
06-04-2009, 08:03
Good post Dave, absoultely spot on. there are no right or wrong answers just what suits the persons taste in music. I can see completely where Marco is coming from with his modded Technics and where someone like myself comes from who wants to appreciate the designers vision. We both end up with a setup that allows us to enjoy music the way we want to.

Now when it comes to digital... :doh:

That's what I was trying to say. But you nailed it, Mister

NRG
09-04-2009, 16:53
Linn are taking the piss yet again, glad I jumped of the train years ago...

Link unashamedly stolen from a PFM thread:

http://www.uhes.co.uk/index.php?action=news.show&story=linn-radikal-linn-urika

Spectral Morn
09-04-2009, 17:43
And I thought the Avid ref power supply was dear. Why can Linn not call a product something simple....its a psu.



Regards D S D L

Mike
09-04-2009, 17:50
Linn are taking the piss yet again, glad I jumped of the train years ago...

Link unashamedly stolen from a PFM thread:

http://www.uhes.co.uk/index.php?action=news.show&story=linn-radikal-linn-urika

Maybe it should be called the 'Urethra'? :D

pure sound
09-04-2009, 18:35
Just a trifling additional 4700 on top of the very reasonable 10K or so they are asking for the LP12SE arm and cartridge.

Wow, it must be really good.

Beechwoods
09-04-2009, 18:55
I'd definitely be wanting it to be really good having dropped 15k on it. I'd feel pretty daft if it sounded crap :)

Marco
09-04-2009, 20:00
But, guys, it revels in Rhythm; it's got PRAT-a-plenty and Boogie-Woogie by the bucketful... What price can you put on that? :eyebrows:

Marco.

chris@panteg
09-04-2009, 22:16
Marco
Come come now ' how can you diss the poor old linn

14,000 for the finest record player the world has known ' its a snip .

i would willing sell my house and all its contents to help linn.

seriously though i think its much easier to judge a deck having owned several types over the years myself a linn/voyd/roksan/logic and now the 1210,
for a younger person trying to get into vinyl it must seem confusing .

Beechwoods
10-04-2009, 03:49
i would willing sell my house and all its contents to help linn.

It must be difficult for them since all the fund managers lost their jobs and the government stopped all the bonuses for the few of 'em still in work. A whip-round may be in order ;)


PRAT... 10k ...
Rhythm... 4,700 ...
Boogie Woogie by the Bucketload ... Priceless

http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/AOS/mastercard.jpeg

:lolsign:

John
10-04-2009, 06:38
For even crazier costs check out
http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/Products/turntables.html
They no longer quote price U guess if you have to ask you cannot afford

Beechwoods
10-04-2009, 07:01
It's good to see you don't need to spend extra on a spirit level though!

Marco
10-04-2009, 08:20
PRAT... 10k ...
Rhythm... 4,700 ...
Boogie Woogie by the Bucketload ... Priceless

http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/AOS/mastercard.jpeg

:lolsign:

Quality, mate!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Marco.

DSJR
10-04-2009, 14:16
Them were the days when audio such as Linn was bought by 25 year old garage mechanics (!!!?) living at home with Mum and having 500 upgrade money to spend. they were mostly around my age.

25 years or so along the way and these 25 year olds are now in their 50's. Many of them became Dad's and mortagees and can't afford what Linn are doing now. A very few still have very well paid jobs and stayed single. Those very few can still afford Linn and Naim gear at the grossly inflated prices they now ask and there are still a handful of arrogant, blinkered dealers around to service them (I can think of three or four straight off broadly in the London/M4 corridor area).

How long Linn can carry on with this is anyone's guess. Naim too... Both companies are trading on past glories I think.

Spectral Morn
10-04-2009, 15:31
Theres always more MOD work, oops shouldn't have said that the internet has ears....;) :lolsign:

Love what you wrote Nick but what were you doing up at 4.49am ?



Regards D S D L

Beechwoods
10-04-2009, 15:48
Couldn't sleep... kids woke me at 4am :(