View Full Version : Kit order on a rack ?
MikeMusic
11-03-2013, 13:39
What order is best for my kit on my Mana racks ?
This could be a perfect one for Marco ....
Currently
Technics SL1200 is on a Mana Reference top
-on top of a another Reference top with the Technics PSU and Ortofon SUT on that MDF top - probably not ideal
Under that Naim 82 on the glass shelf of the Mana rack
Whest phono Pre Amp on the next glass shelf down
Tivo next glass shelf down - yes I know that ought to go elsewhere
PSU for Naim 500 Power amp
These sitting on 3 Mana sound bases
other rack
P10 on the top glass shelf -as its so big
Missing shelf now as
Rega Isis CDP is a top loader, on the next glass shelf
Naim 500 power amp on the bottom glass shelf
Any obvious silliness there ?
The Grand Wazoo
11-03-2013, 14:09
The are two sides to this - practicality & the effect on the sound.
If you have 2 racks to fill, some prefer to keep power amps & supplies on different racks to sources and pre-amps. Whatever you choose to do in that regard, I like to keep that stuff low as it's generally heavier and so it keeps the centre of gravity of the rack low for stability. The other thing to bear in mind is keeping stuff with controls higher for the simple reason that it's literally a pain in the back to bend over every time you change a disc/record or the commonly used controls.
Rare Bird
11-03-2013, 14:12
Or everything on one level like i do :lol:
Beobloke
11-03-2013, 14:15
The turntable's definitely best off on the top...
MikeMusic
11-03-2013, 14:24
The are two sides to this - practicality & the effect on the sound.
If you have 2 racks to fill, some prefer to keep power amps & supplies on different racks to sources and pre-amps. Whatever you choose to do in that regard, I like to keep that stuff low as it's generally heavier and so it keeps the centre of gravity of the rack low for stability. The other thing to bear in mind is keeping stuff with controls higher for the simple reason that it's literally a pain in the back to bend over every time you change a disc/record or the commonly used controls.
I'm stuck with some positions due to size of the box and cable lengths.
I was wondering about the SUT and the Technics PSU maybe being better on a glass shelf, but together ?
I have other racks I can use and have thought about putting one rack on top of another, Reference Top style. So the bottom rack has an MDF top for the top rack to sit on.
This makes a high seat for some of the kit.
For out and out weight the 500 and P10 should be low, but I can't do both, unless I go tailor made and I want to sort the ideal positions first
Remotes allow me to put most kit lower
Technics is high, Rega would be good higher
The Grand Wazoo
11-03-2013, 14:28
I'm afraid I wouldn't know about the niceties of Mana - that's definitely Marco's department, but I would tend towards extreme caution when thinking about putting an SUT anywhere near a power supply.
MikeMusic
11-03-2013, 14:30
I'm afraid I wouldn't know about the niceties of Mana - that's definitely Marco's department, but I would tend towards extreme caution when thinking about putting an SUT anywhere near a power supply.
I can put them one shelf away at different sides to start with......
MikeMusic
12-03-2013, 12:55
PSU for Technics move up and away
Seemed a small improvement
SUT found to be touching the bottom of the shelf above so had to raise that and then level the Technics
:doh:
So I got a bit lost there
Tivo out is probably the next move, after I've sorted out my balance on the Whest to the 82 !
I do it according to practicality on my 4 tier Mana:
Bottom Shelf = power amp
2nd Shelf = DAC
3rd Shelf = preamp
Top Shelf = CD Transport with my headphone amp sat on top of the CDT.
I wouldn't want to be reaching down to the bottom shelf to adjust volume etc.
MikeMusic
12-03-2013, 13:52
I do it according to practicality on my 4 tier Mana:
Bottom Shelf = power amp
2nd Shelf = DAC
3rd Shelf = preamp
Top Shelf = CD Transport with my headphone amp sat on top of the CDT.
I wouldn't want to be reaching down to the bottom shelf to adjust volume etc.
Makes sense to me
Not sticking to what I say - keep it simple - I've got a load more kit than that though so it's more 'interesting'
Hi Mike,
Could you take some pictures, showing the layout of your kit, and post them here? That's the only way to advise you properly, matey, otherwise it's largely guess work :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
12-03-2013, 15:29
Hi Mike,
Could you take some pictures, showing the layout of your kit, and post them here? That's the only way to advise you properly, matey, otherwise it's largely guess work :)
Marco.
Will do
Best way to load pics ?
If you email them to me, I'll sort it out for you! I'll PM you my addy :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
12-03-2013, 15:49
If you email them to me, I'll sort it out for you! I'll PM you my addy :)
Marco.
Supercool !
:)
Just waiting on your pics, dude... :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
13-03-2013, 13:27
Just waiting on your pics, dude... :)
Marco.
Crossed in the ether
Just 1 whole pic
Here's ya pic, dude:
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/9273/shifi.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/shifi.jpg/)
I'll comment on the kit layout later... In the meantime, if you could list everything on the racks, from left to right, that would be great :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
14-03-2013, 12:14
If you could list everything on the racks, from left to right, that would be great :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco
The pic is mirror image BTW so either needs turning or lateral thinking !
Left rack from top to bottom
Technics
Technics PSU
Ortofon SUT
Naim 82
Whest Phono Pre
Tivo
PSU for Naim 500
Sound bases
Right rack
P10
Space
Rega Isis CDP
2 x Naim HiCaps
Naim 500
TV on the left
Isobarik on the right - I do have another not in shot :)
hifi_dave
14-03-2013, 17:18
Now that is a poorly laid out system.
I suppose you have made use of existing racks ?
MikeMusic
14-03-2013, 17:21
Now that is a poorly laid out system.
I suppose you have made use of existing racks ?
Oh. Didn't think it was *that* bad
What's the main problem ?
I have other racks but can't sensibly reach with the cabling
hifi_dave
14-03-2013, 20:55
IMO, you should have the large lumjps - power gen and NAP 500, on the bottom shelves. The CD player and turntable of choice, should be properly supported on top shelves, where you can get at them.
The phono stage, x'mer and pre should be away from large lumps generating lots of 'hum'.
Finally, cables should be tucked neatly out of sight..:stalks:
MikeMusic
14-03-2013, 21:31
IMO, you should have the large lumjps - power gen and NAP 500, on the bottom shelves. The CD player and turntable of choice, should be properly supported on top shelves, where you can get at them.
The phono stage, x'mer and pre should be away from large lumps generating lots of 'hum'.
Finally, cables should be tucked neatly out of sight..:stalks:
Just bit more width and I could put the P10 on it's own low down table.
The plan was to have it above the 500 but the weight and the tight fit persuaded me out of that.
Size of the kit and cable lengths dictates too many positions
Tailor made could get around that, plus the Naim 82 and therefore HiCaps could be moved on
Thanks Marco
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/Miksshifi.jpg
Left rack from top to bottom
Technics
Technics PSU
Ortofon SUT
Naim 82
Whest Phono Pre
Tivo
PSU for Naim 500
Sound bases
Right rack
P10
Space
Rega Isis CDP
2 x Naim HiCaps
Naim 500
TV on the left
Isobarik on the right - I do have another not in shot :)
Better Mike? :)
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 07:45
Better Mike? :)
Thanks Dave
Well that's how it appears
Now tell me how to make it sound better !
:)
Seeing it now as a pic I think it looks much worse than in the flesh
It looks stark. Think this is the flash from the camera
I am intrigued by the grey panels adorning the darker bits of kit, what are they Mike?
Below is how my system is laid out, with the power amp well away from the main system out of shot:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/SAM_1934-1.jpg
Mind you, that is probably all wrong too... :lol:
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 08:11
I am intrigued by the grey panels adorning the darker bits of kit, what are they Mike?
Below is how my system is laid out, with the power amp well away from the main system out of shot:
Mind you, that is probably all wrong too... :lol:
The grey panels are pieces of black card stopping the various LEDs from blinding me. I took them off for the first photos then put them back and Sally took the only photo worth using !
Again all of this is non obvious in normal lighting being black on black
My logic was to have the Isis on top of the right hand rack, then the P10, HiCaps and Naim 500. The P10 proved to be slightly too big and heavy for that
The Tivo will be moved to the other side of TV
Maybe I have to adopt the perfect 'vision' - like you're supposed to do - and work out how to achieve it.
I would always have the sources at the very top and the big noisy kit at the bottom
Detail though :
What about the PSU for the Technics ?
Is the SUT super sensitive ?
Are those various items supplying power ok on an adjacent rack or should they - somehow - be further away ?
What is not shown on that shot is the horribly noisy Naim NAPSC.
That is stuck out on the other side of the RHS Isobarik
Getting any power supplies as far away from your kit is always a good idea however it is not always practical. For example the PH SR3 PS for my Techie is on the shelf adjacent to the Rega DAC in my system, and there it will have to stay as there really is nowhere else to put it except on the floor. I might try that actually... :scratch:
EDIT: Tried it but the lead between the PS and the Techie is way too short so it is staying where it is...
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 08:48
Getting any power supplies as far away from your kit is always a good idea however it is not always practical. For example the PH SR3 PS for my Techie is on the shelf adjacent to the Rega DAC in my system, and there it will have to stay as there really is nowhere else to put it except on the floor. I might try that actually... :scratch:
You would laugh if you saw where my NAPSC is
The cables are long so connectiing to the back of the 82, out from the left hand rack, past the back of right hand rack, past the Isobarik, it sits on the Mana Iso stand on the far right, just off the floor where it is plugged into a socket another 2-3 feet to the right.
Sounds is even better if it is plugged into a socket in the next room, but that is a bit awkward :)
I wonder where I could put my Technics PSU.......
It might be an idea to put all the power oriented stuff in its own rack if poss. The Techie PS could sit on the floor behind the TV on a small granite or glass worktop saver or place mat if the cable is short, that would free up space for the Naim kit ;)
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 09:22
It might be an idea to put all the power oriented stuff in its own rack if poss. The Techie PS could sit on the floor behind the TV on a small granite or glass worktop saver or place mat if the cable is short, that would free up space for the Naim kit ;)
The P10, Naim 500 are *big* so current rack set up is sub optimal.
The 500 also has it's own PSU and the 2 HiCaps need to be close to the 500 due to cable length connecting them
As the 82 could/will be replaced (and so the HiCaps) there could be a lot more flexibility to come
For space on that wall I am full up :(
I may have to go up with some lateral thinking
:)
Thanks for getting the pic the right way round, Dave. I tried, but couldn't get it any better than I had, after Mike, the daftee that he is, had sent it the wrong way up and without being resized...! :eyebrows:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/Miksshifi.jpg
Mike, there's so much wrong with that, mate, I don't know where to start!! :doh: :eek:
The stacks need completely rebuilt, starting from scratch, which will need me to visit, in order to sort out properly. However, I virtually guarantee that we can drastically improve things! Are you free next weekend, Sat 23rd? :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
15-03-2013, 10:03
Thanks for getting the pic the right way round, Dave. I tried, but couldn't get it any better than I had, after Mike, the daftee that he is, had sent it the wrong way up and without being resized...! :eyebrows:
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/Miksshifi.jpg
Mike, there's so much wrong with that, mate, I don't know where to start!! :doh: :eek:
Marco.
Marco, you're so tough on the man - I was attempting to be polite.
And yes, the SUT and the phono stage are "super sensitive". They should be away from anything large and full of mains. You can try this yourself by turning up the volume with the pre set to phono and listen for 'hum'. If it is noisy at normal, loud volume, try moving things around.
No problem Marco, happy to help. There you go Mike: WHO YOU GONNA CALL??? RACKBUSTERS!!! :lol:
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 10:09
Thanks for getting the pic the right way round, Dave. I tried, but couldn't get it any better than I had, after Mike, the daftee that he is, had sent it the wrong way up and without being resized...! :eyebrows:
Mike, there's so much wrong with that, mate, I don't know where to start!! :doh: :eek:
The stacks need completely rebuilt, starting from scratch, which will need me to visit, in order to sort out properly. However, I virtually guarantee that we can drastically improve things! Are you free next weekend, Sat 23rd? :)
Marco.
You know that management crap where they say you must delegate as much as you can ?
I delegated photography many years ago and have regretted it frequently.
If I did pics more often -and had more interest I'd get it done right every time. Being in print my guys do resizing and way more complicated for me in no time at all with some great software I paid a fortune for
There are cable length limitations and the 82/HiCap arrangement won't be there a whole lot longer.
2 double mains sockets are just behind the top of the 82
I will be there ready willing and able Saturday 23rd !
- even though I normally do a long day at work - music must take precedence !
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 10:11
Marco, you're so tough on the man - I was attempting to be polite.
And yes, the SUT and the phono stage are "super sensitive". They should be away from anything large and full of mains. You can try this yourself by turning up the volume with the pre set to phono and listen for 'hum'. If it is noisy at normal, loud volume, try moving things around.
I'm happy to get it right, being more of a power amp seeking the truth than a Phono stage with a sensitive ego !
:)
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 10:13
No problem Marco, happy to help. There you go Mike: WHO YOU GONNA CALL??? RACKBUSTERS!!! :lol:
Yus
:)
Bear in mind this system has gone from sounding 'ok' to top league, IMO anyway
I'm always looking to do it better
Any suggestions regarding my set up guys, have I got it about right?
You know that management crap where they say you must delegate as much as you can ?
I delegated photography many years ago and have regretted it frequently.
If I did pics more often -and had more interest I'd get it done right every time. Being in print my guys do resizing and way more complicated for me in no time at all with some great software I paid a fortune for
Lol!
There are cable length limitations and the 82/HiCap arrangement won't be there a whole lot longer.
2 double mains sockets are just behind the top of the 82
I will be there ready willing and able Saturday 23rd !
- even though I normally do a long day at work - music must take precedence !
Nice one. PM me your addy and landline number and we'll sort out a visit. I'll check that your Mana racks are set-up properly and work round the kit placement restrictions you've got, also taking into consideration the fact that the 82 and HiCaps will be taking a holiday soon.
What are you getting instead? :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 10:24
Lol!
Nice one. PM me your addy and landline number and we'll sort out a visit. I'll check that your Mana racks are set-up properly and work round the kit placement restrictions you've got, also taking into consideration the fact that the 82 and HiCaps will be taking a holiday soon.
What are you getting instead? :)
Marco.
Will do
No idea what is replacing the 82
I do know someone who threatened to tempt me with a Croft though
:)
Wonder if I could persuade the nice Mr T to bring his Pass Pre along ........
Any suggestions regarding my set up guys, have I got it about right?
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/SAM_1934-1.jpg
Seems fine, Dave. However, can we see what it looks like at the back, in terms of cable dressing? :eek:
:lol:
Marco.
Seems fine, Dave. However, can we see what it looks like at the back, in terms of cable dressing? :eek:
:lol:
Marco.
Not easily, but I have taken care to arrange cabling as best I can. It does not look like a cheap Spaghetti Western behind there of that I can assure you... hehe
Lol - glad to hear it! :D
One of the things I insist on when setting up a system (in my own home) is ensuring that there is enough space to get round the back of the racks(s), in order to make it easy to connect/disconnect equipment, and also to aid the achievement of optimal cable-dressing (no signal cables should touch mains cables, and NO signal or mains cables should touch the back wall or floor.)
Ideally, ALL cables (apart from speaker cables) should be separated out and hang neatly in their own free space.
This means two things:
1) The building of a rack tall enough to enable the latter, in order to get the cables belonging to equipment, clear of the floor.
2) The rack(s) in question being placed out into the room, away from the wall (enough for you to be able to get behind the system and do what you have to do).
I realise that for some this isn't practical and/or aesthetically desirable, but necessary if you *really* want to hear your system at its best! :)
Marco.
Wonder if I could persuade the nice Mr T to bring his Pass Pre along ........
Would be great if Martin could make it, so we could all hook up :)
Should I bring my Techy with me, to do some comparisons, or do you not want to go there? ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 11:17
Would be great if Martin could make it, so we could all hook up :)
Should I bring my Techy with me, to do some comparisons, or do you not want to go there? ;)
Marco.
Anything and everything would be great
The Croft could be a tolling bell for the 82
My Technics approaches yours now, not quite the high spec. you have
I will update the 'work in progress' in my sig
Lol - glad to hear it! :D
One of the things I insist on when setting up a system (in my own home) is ensuring that there is enough space to get round the back of the racks(s), in order to make it easy to connect/disconnect equipment, and also to aid the achievement of optimal cable-dressing (no signal cables should touch mains cables, and NO signal or mains cables should touch the back wall or floor.)
Ideally, ALL cables (apart from speaker cables) should be separated out and hang neatly in their own free space.
This means two things:
1) The building of a rack tall enough to enable the latter, in order to get the cables belonging to equipment, clear of the floor.
2) The rack(s) in question being placed out into the room, away from the wall (enough for you to be able to get behind the system and do what you have to do).
I realise that for some this isn't practical and/or aesthetically desirable, but necessary if you *really* want to hear your system at its best! :)
Marco.
This would be absolutely impossible in my room Marco. I think I have found a decent compromise however. It is an epic task to disconnect or reconnect equipment though, which is why I get Jo to do it as I am a fat git and she's built like a racing whippet... :rfl:
Sorry guys, I can't make it this weekend but hope that the 'stack rebuild' goes well.
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 11:40
Sorry guys, I can't make it this weekend but hope that the 'stack rebuild' goes well.
23rd March .......
Yup, it's a week on Saturday, Martin - not this weekend. Hope you can manage to swing by :cool:
Marco.
This would be absolutely impossible in my room Marco. I think I have found a decent compromise however. It is an epic task to disconnect or reconnect equipment though, which is why I get Jo to do it as I am a fat git and she's built like a racing whippet... :rfl:
Lol - no worries, Dave. I realise that that sort of thing is really only possible if you have a dedicated listening room, separate from a communal lounge.
Sonically, though, such an arrangement does give quite a big improvement, especially when comparing it to cables thats are simply 'shoved out of sight' and are lying like a dog's dinner behind the system!
The plug-in order of kit into mains blocks (or mains regenerators) is also important, as is where mains blocks are located, in relation to system components - as are indeed all manner of things. There are so many set-up tweaks I've learned over the years from both working in hi-fi shops, setting up countless systems for customers, and experimenting personally, that I reckon I could improve 90% of people's set ups, in that respect, simply from a home visit.
At one time, I was even thinking of doing it as a business :)
Marco.
Anything and everything would be great
The Croft could be a tolling bell for the 82
My Technics approaches yours now, not quite the high spec. you have
I will update the 'work in progress' in my sig
No worries, Mike. I'll bring the Techy, so you can have a listen. I could also bring the Croft, but you'd need to have the right DIN-to-phono leads, in order to connect it to your NAP500.
Marco.
Stratmangler
15-03-2013, 13:59
However, I virtually guarantee that we can drastically improve things! Are you free next weekend, Sat 23rd? :)
Marco.
I'd have thought a dramatic improvement might be better.
Drastic implies that things will get worse :eyebrows:
You not popping over to the Manchester Airport show?
I'd have thought a dramatic improvement might be better.
Drastic implies that things will get worse :eyebrows:
You not popping over to the Manchester Airport show?
Hehehe... Indeed! However, I'll go for 'significant' :)
Forgot about the show. However, I'll go down to Mike's, as if I don't go then, I won't make it for ages, as we're away for Easter and I've been promising him a visit since last year! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Yup, it's a week on Saturday, Martin - not this weekend
Problem exists between keyboard and chair. I meant I'm not available the following weekend. Sorry!
Ah, dat's a shame.... Is your new frock arriving then from Simply Be? :D
Marco.
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 15:43
Problem exists between keyboard and chair. I meant I'm not available the following weekend. Sorry!
What you heard is what I said, but what I said is not what I meant
:)
Mike,
What type of cable/connector connects the MCRU Linear PSU to your Techy? I'm wondering whether we can compare PSUs (with my SR7) on our respective T/Ts?
Mind you, if I strap my SPU Royal onto your Jelco, the only variables between both T/Ts will be the Jelco (which is not massively different to my Ortofon tonearm) and your MCRU PSU, so we should be able to get a good idea of what's going on, in that respect :)
BTW, just out of interest, what made you go for the MCRU PSU, rather than an SR7? :cool:
Marco.
Ah, dat's a shame.... Is your new frock arriving then from Simply Be? :D
That's between me and my full-length mirror...
:lolsign:
I'm not jealous, honestly!
Marco.
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 18:15
Mike,
What type of cable/connector connects the MCRU Linear PSU to your Techy? I'm wondering whether we can compare PSUs (with my SR7) on our respective T/Ts?
Mind you, if I strap my SPU Royal onto your Jelco, the only variables between both T/Ts will be the Jelco (which is not massively different to my Ortofon tonearm) and your MCRU PSU, so we should be able to get a good idea of what's going on, in that respect :)
BTW, just out of interest, what made you go for the MCRU PSU, rather than an SR7? :cool:
Marco.
The PSU has a plug in from the deck. Not DIN or BNC, not sure what to call it. That cable goes to another box inside the deck, but the platter is reluctant to move so I'll let you have a go at that
This was the PSU on the deck when I bought it from DB
Ah, I see, it was David's... Didn't know that.
...but the platter is reluctant to move so I'll let you have a go at that
Reluctant to move? That doesn't sound good! Any idea what the problem is?
Marco.
The PSU has a plug in from the deck. Not DIN or BNC, not sure what to call it. That cable goes to another box inside the deck,
so I'll let you have a go at that
This was the PSU on the deck when I bought it from DB
Can you give the spindle a gentle tap with a piece of wood and then lift the platter.
MikeMusic
15-03-2013, 21:25
Ah, I see, it was David's... Didn't know that.
Reluctant to move? That doesn't sound good! Any idea what the problem is?
Marco.
Tight fit on the spindle, a new Mike New Bearing
The platter has been on since fitting
MikeMusic
16-03-2013, 08:30
Can you give the spindle a gentle tap with a piece of wood and then lift the platter.
Probably, but the only reason I want to lift if off is to check the cable for Marco
so I'll let him have a look next Saturday
I'm reluctant to use any force at all as I paid a load of dough for that bearing !
The platter should be a tight fit, Mike, but it should also move freely. Something isn't right... I'll certainly check it out for you.
Looking at your set-up again (and just floating some ideas ahead of my visit next Saturday):
http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/Miksshifi.jpg
Would it be possible for your Techy (and two Reference Tops underneath) to swap places with your P10? Don't do it yet, though. I just want to know if it will work, logistically (in terms of necessary cables reaching, etc).
One of the things I'd like to do is get your T/T lower down onto a more solid structure and on its own separate rack, as from experience I know that it will sound better that way, but we'll also have to swap around some of your Soundstages to ensure that the effect of the Mana remains balanced throughout your system, or perhaps favouring the sources slightly.
Marco.
MikeMusic
16-03-2013, 10:04
The platter should be a tight fit, Mike, but it should also move freely. Something isn't right... I'll certainly have a look for you.
Looking at your set-up again (and just floating some ideas ahead of my visit next Saturday):
Would it be possible for your Techy (and two Reference Tops underneath) to swap places with your P10? Don't do it yet, though. I just want to know if it will work, logistically (in terms of necessary cables reaching, etc).
One of the things I'd like to do is get your T/T lower down onto a more solid structure and on its own separate rack, as from experience I know that it will sound better that way, but we'll also have to swap around some of your Soundstages to ensure that the effect of the Mana remains balanced throughout your system, or perhaps favouring the sources slightly.
Marco.
Could be I'm too cautious removing the platter. I’m new to this so I’ll tread carefully
I find some LPs are very tight on the spindle, say 1 in 10
The Technics used to be where the P10 was, on top of another Reference top. The PPP was under.
The Rega Isis was on the top of the left stack. – The Isis is a *top* loader BTW and will not fit in one standard shelf space
The LHS rack is standard Mana, the one on the right is a special, oversize by about 1” extra width and depth so too big for standard sound stages.
I have an oversize wooden top so a Reference top or two can sit on that.
I have other Mana racks we can use too !
:)
I have a total of 1 table, 2 x 3 Shelf, 1 x 4 shelf, 2 x 5 shelf. All standard apart from one 5 shelf
The P10 is monstrously heavy and needs 2 people to lift and move.
The 500 can just be managed by one, way easier with 2. It is too high for a standard shelf height so sits in the higher tailored shelf on the RHS rack.
Left to right in the room
Double glass panel doors, about 4 feet to a pillar that sticks out in the room about 10", 2-3 feet space, LHS Isobarik, Mana rack for TV items, Tivo freeview box +, TV, pillar sticking out in the room -you can see the shadow of it in the pic, rack with the Technics, rack with the P10, Isobarik, solid wooden door
Could be I'm too cautious removing the platter. I’m new to this so I’ll tread carefully
I find some LPs are very tight on the spindle, say 1 in 10
That's fairly normal, although for me, it's more like 1 in 100. It could be that your spindle has been engineered to a slightly larger diameter than others and mine, or you just own more records with tighter holes (oo-er missus!) :eyebrows:
The platter is meant to be a tight push-fit onto the spindle. To remove the platter, you have to grip the sides of it tightly with the thumbs, index and middle fingers of both hands and, with reasonable force, push the platter up until it pops out. It's not difficult, mate. Then, to replace, it simply pops back on with a pressure fit.
The Technics used to be where the P10 was, on top of another Reference top. The PPP was under.
The Rega Isis was on the top of the left stack. – The Isis is a *top* loader BTW and will not fit in one standard shelf space
The LHS rack is standard Mana, the one on the right is a special, oversize by about 1” extra width and depth so too big for standard sound stages.
I have an oversize wooden top so a Reference top or two can sit on that.
I'm confused... Does that mean that the answer to my question is yes or no? :scratch:
Is it possible for the Techy and P10 to swap places? Remember that a) it won't be as high up as it was before, due to the Ref Tops being moved, and b) I'm a strong fooker, and quite tall! ;)
I have other Mana racks we can use too ! I have a total of 1 table, 2 x 3 Shelf, 1 x 4 shelf, 2 x 5 shelf. All standard apart from one 5 shelf
Cool. That's handy! I will aim to use as much of it as possible :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
16-03-2013, 11:03
That's fairly normal, although for me, it's more like 1 in 100. It could be that your spindle has been engineered in a slightly larger diameter than others and mine, or you just own more records with tighter holes (oo-er missus!) :eyebrows:
The platter is meant to be a tight push-fit onto the spindle. To remove the platter, you have to grip the sides of it tightly with the thumbs and middle fingers of both hands and, with reasonable force, push the platter up until it pops out. It's not difficult, mate. Then, to replace, it simply pops back on with a pressure fit.
I'm confused... Does that mean that the answer to my question is yes or no? :scratch:
Is it possible for the Techy and P10 to swap places?
Cool. That's handy! I will aim to use as much of it as possible :)
Marco.
The Technics and P10 can swap
Don't we want the P10 lower ?
Ideally, but the trouble is getting a shelf for it to fit. Perhaps we could build a separate rack. simply to house the P10? That was something else I'd thought of :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
16-03-2013, 11:18
Ideally, but the trouble is getting a shelf for it to fit. Perhaps we could build a separate rack. simply to house the P10? That was something else I'd thought of :)
Marco.
Just remembered
I also have a wall shelf that I'm not keen on as the LP12 sounded noticeably better on a rack.
The lightest piece of kit needing top access is the Technics........
Could the wall shelf house the P10? I'm keen to get that somewhere 'out of the way', but obviously close enough to the main action, as it were, to ensure that the kit needing to be plugged into it will reach :)
Yup - any T/T will sound better on the main rack, providing that it is supported by more Soundstages than a wall shelf. When it's the other way round, the reverse is true. Remember that a wall shelf on its own is simply 'Phase 1', as indeed is a rack.
Marco.
MikeMusic
16-03-2013, 11:49
Could the wall shelf house the P10? I'm keen to get that somewhere 'out of the way', but obviously close enough to the main action, as it were, to ensure that the kit needing to be plugged into it will reach :)
Yup - any T/T will sound better on the main rack, providing that it is supported by more Soundstages than a wall shelf. When it's the other way round, the reverse is true. Remember that a wall shelf on its own is simply 'Phase 1', as indeed is a rack.
Marco.
I'd be very wary putting the P10 on a shelf
If I remember right the LP12 sounded better on the top of a rack, spiked into wooden pads sitting on a wood floor - not ideal, but temporary then - than on a reference top on the wall shelf.
Noticeably better
Could we build a separate (high-ish) stack then for the P10 and place it somewhere slightly forward of the racks where the main kit lives?
Basically, you don't want all that mass sharing the same rack space as your main kit, and also, with its HUGE trannies inside, the P10 be kicking out a large magnetic field, which pisses up the sound of anything else in its immediate vicinity.
The other option with the T/T is to build what is known as a 'Reference Wall Shelf', which is basically a normal Mana wall shelf, whereby a Reference Top is placed onto it - only you've got two, which would give us Phase 3!
Any wall shelf, however, would have to go somewhere where the leads from your T/T will reach your MCRU PSU and also your SUT and preamp :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
16-03-2013, 12:13
Could we build a separate (high-ish) stack then for the P10 and place it somewhere slightly forward of the racks where the main kit lives?
Basically, you don't want all that mass sharing the same rack space as your main kit, and also, with its HUGE trannies inside, the P10 be kicking out a large magnetic field, which pisses up the sound of anything else in its immediate vicinity.
The other option with the T/T is to build what is known as a 'Reference Wall Shelf', which is basically a normal Mana wall shelf, whereby a Reference Top is placed onto it - only you've got two, which would give us Phase 3!
Any wall shelf, however, would have to go somewhere where the leads from your T/T will reach your MCRU PSU and also your SUT and preamp :)
Marco.
I thought about putting the P10 on a table in front of the kit. Would look odd though
How far away do you think the P10 ought to be ?
What about the 500 and it’s PSU ?
It’s a big room so I wonder if I would get permission to put a rack behind and pull the other/s forward, leaving the Isobariks flush against the wall of course
I have a total of 3 Reference tops !
The interconnects and the mains leads could well be the downfall of any cunning plan
The P10 should be placed as far away as is practically possible from the rest of the kit. Remember, it's basically a huge motha-fukka power amp! The same applies with the PSU for the NAP500, and any other PSUs.
Ideally, we'd have 'brains and brawns' racks: the former represented by sources and preamps, and the latter, power amps and PSUs. That's the ideal scenario. Therefore, if your T/T doesn't go on a separate wall shelf, then it would share a rack with the Isis and the 82, and any other ancillary items.
It remains to be seen, however, how close we get to that ideal! :eyebrows:
If you're planning to install a wall shelf, then make sure that you obtain all the correct fittings and fixtures, in time for my arrival, and have a good quality drill to hand. It'll be you who will be using it ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
16-03-2013, 13:01
The P10 should be placed as far away as is practically possible from the rest of the kit. Remember, it's basically a huge motha-fukka power amp! The same applies with the PSU for the NAP500, and any other PSUs.
Ideally, we'd have 'brains and brawns' racks: the former represented by sources and preamps, and the latter, power amps and PSUs. That's the ideal scenario. Therefore, if your T/T doesn't go on a separate wall shelf, then it would share a rack with the Isis and the 82, and any other ancillary items.
It remains to be seen, however, how close we get to that ideal! :eyebrows:
If you're planning to install a wall shelf, then make sure that you obtain all the correct fittings and fixtures, in time for my arrival, and have a good quality drill to hand. It'll be you who will be using it ;)
Marco.
I wonder if we could have a brawn rack against the wall, kit sideways to enable easy access and short cable runs, kit maybe even on backwards for even easier access. Brains rack maybe in front if it ....
I’ll get as much stuff as I think we need and more just in case
Just sent a bigger pic of the whole setup over as was a few months ago
Let me know if you want more
I wonder if we could have a brawn rack against the wall, kit sideways to enable easy access and short cable runs, kit maybe even on backwards for even easier access. Brains rack maybe in front if it ....
If we could achieve that, that would be peachy-keen - especially in terms of your desire for obtaining the best sound! :exactly:
I’ll get as much stuff as I think we need and more just in case
Just sent a bigger pic of the whole setup over as was a few months ago
Let me know if you want more
Nice one, dude. Got it :)
Marco.
Just thought I'd show how stuff looks at the back of my system, since cable dressing was mentioned earlier (these are old pics - some things have changed since then, namely WBT 0110Ag RCAs, replacing Eichmann Silver Bullets, on the Mark Grant G2000HDs):
http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/1207/img1777l.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/img1777l.jpg/)
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3568/img1775x.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/248/img1775x.jpg/)
Mike, we'll be aiming for something similar! ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
17-03-2013, 21:23
Just thought I'd show how stuff looks at the back of my system, since cable dressing was mentioned earlier:
Mike, we'll be aiming for something similar! ;)
Marco.
:eek:
I seem to have around 10 times more cables !
Lol... No reason why they can't be arranged neatly - I insist on it! ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
18-03-2013, 08:56
Lol... No reason why they can't be arranged neatly - I insist on it! ;)
Marco.
As I head towards a settled system I will tidy up for sure
I resisted the idea of adding the regenerator, SUT and Phono Pre boxes and yet more cables as I want to simplify
'Course the sound quality won me over ..
Looking forward to another jump in sound quality next weekend !
Hi Mike,
No worries... If you'd like to hear the Croft, could you obtain the correct cables, in readiness for the weekend, in order to connect it to your NAP500? What type of connection does the latter take from the partnering preamp? I forget, it's been that long!
If you need some cables made up cheaply, Flashback Sales are good: http://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/
They'll make up any kind of configuration you want :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
18-03-2013, 11:49
Hi Mike,
No worries... If you'd like to hear the Croft, could you obtain the correct cables, in readiness for the weekend, in order to connect it to your NAP500? What type of connection does the latter take from the partnering preamp? I forget, it's been that long!
If you need some cables made up cheaply, Flashback Sales are good: http://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/
They'll make up any kind of configuration you want :)
Marco.
I have so many cables and adaptors it would be a PITA if I needed two made
The 500 takes XLR in from the HiCaps (not the logical 82, being Naim)
What is the output from the Croft, phono ?
hifi_dave
18-03-2013, 12:08
The left and right (1 and 2) XLR inputs on the NAP 500 have different pin configurations.
MikeMusic
18-03-2013, 12:36
The left and right (1 and 2) XLR inputs on the NAP 500 have different pin configurations.
Oh yes they must !
I remember when I first plugged it in nothing happened
Hifi Cinema put me right
Good old Naim ....
Thanks David. Could have come a cropper there
hifi_dave
18-03-2013, 12:41
:doh: only Naim!
Makes sense when you have a complicated tangle of cables. You can't reverse channels, because 'nothing' is the result.
MikeMusic
18-03-2013, 12:53
Makes sense when you have a complicated tangle of cables. You can't reverse channels, because 'nothing' is the result.
Now I'm thinking..... (dangerous)
I think I was able to use the existing 135 cables, possibly in either channel.
Is that likely ?
The 135 cables are quite happy going into either 135
This makes a difference as Flashback have 2 types, £28 a set or £49
I use Kimber KCAG now so could try swapping them over too
MikeMusic
21-03-2013, 08:08
The Tivo has gone to the other side of the TV
Ok with Marco being delayed coming down I scratched my head a long time and came up with a change..
Move the Isis CDP from the rack 2 with most of the 'dirty' stuff, P10, Naim 500, HiCaps to rack 1.
PSU for the Naim 500 to rack 2
So now
Rack 1
Technics with its PSU, SUT, Naim 82, Whest Phone Pre amp, when back from fettling, Isis on the bottom shelf with top opening lid using the spare slot with no shelf
Interesting I *thought* I noticed quite a difference, but that was quite a big change with many cables pulled in and out and the Isis with more Mana underneath it
I'll move the Isis back onto rack 2 soon, play and do a proper comparison
Nice one, Mike. Was the difference an improvement? Forward me some pics of the final arrangement you settle on, and I'll have a squinto over it! :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
21-03-2013, 08:33
Nice one, Mike. Was the difference an improvement? Forward me some pics of the final arrangement you settle on, and I'll have a squinto over it! :)
Marco.
Pretty sure it was, but a lot of kit was moved, a lot of cables pulled in and out and the Isis is now on a rack with 3 Mana sound bases under, previously none
I might have time tonight to do a comparison. If not soon
MikeMusic
22-03-2013, 07:41
Comparison last night between the old and new position for the Isis CDP
Put the Isis almost back where it was, actually one shelf higher than it had been on the rack of P10 and PSUs.
This made the Isis about 6" closer to the P10 than previously, just a couple of inches under it
HiCaps immediately under the Isis
Naim 500 PSU under them
Naim 500 on the bottom shelf
Mavis Staples obliged with a rendition of Eyes on the Prize
Seemed compressed and not quite right. Not at all bad but I've certainly heard better.
Moved the Isis to the bottom front end, delicate items rack
Technics at the top
Technics PSU under*
SUT
Naim 82
gap for Whest due back soon
gap and no shelf to allow the Isis top loader to lift into
Isis
Instantly better, bigger sound stage, easier pace, way more detail, bass, midrange, kitchen sink, you name it
That's one of the best single sound improvements I've heard, top 10 for sure
*I have a slot on the grunt rack for the Technics PSU.
That's the next test
Hehehe... Nice one, Mikey! Now and again this big daftee knows what he's talking about! ;)
Send me some pics (this time the right way up/round) of the new set-up, and I'll post them here.
Hey, it looks like the snow would've scuppered our sesh anyway - you've probably just got rain where you are, but here there's about 6-7 inches of the white stuff in our back garden and the roads are a bloody nightmare....! :doh:
When will this pish ever end?? :rolleyes:
Marco.
MikeMusic
22-03-2013, 08:13
Hehehe... Nice one, Mikey! Now and again this big daftee knows what he's talking about! ;)
Send me some pics (this time the right way up/round) of the new set-up, and I'll post them here.
Hey, it looks like the snow would've scuppered our sesh anyway - you've probably just got rain where you are, but here there's about 6-7 inches of the white stuff in our back garden and the roads are a bloody nightmare....! :doh:
When will this pish ever end?? :rolleyes:
Marco.
Always listening even if it sounds far fetched (to me)
Moving the Naim NAPSC well out of the way was telling and a big improvement. Think that was the first I got from you
Crazy that daft little box creates so much muck
Just lurve no cost fixes !
More shuffling to do this weekend then a pic
Sally found more pics were reversed when she uploaded. Think she’s found the problem in camera settings or similar
I thought the rain here was a PITA getting my lovely bike so filthy.
6-7 of snow, that’s real snow !
Can’t remember having to wear wellies for so long taking the dogs for a walk.
Fields we walk over are frequently sodden or flooded
MikeMusic
25-03-2013, 13:05
Sunday is hifi and music day !
:D
Kit shuffling continues
1. Slight diversion
Whest PS.30 back so seems good to have a comparison between
Technics-SUT-Naim 82 (Naim doing the phono) -sounds pretty good,
now
Technics-SUT -Whest doing the phono - Naim 82
Oh yes, bigger, better, more detail, smoother, nice !
And that is the Whest from cold
2.
Technics PSU sitting just under the Technics on the clean, front end rack
Good sound
Technics PSU moved to just under the P!0 on the dirty, grunt, PSUs and power amp rack
Better sound opened up even more
3.
SUT sitting on the RHS of the clean rack about 6" away from the top/middle of the P10, SUT cables dangle on the outside so slightly closer to the P10
Assume this is a bad thing
Move SUT to the middle of the same shelf, at the back so about another 9" further away from the back end of the P10 so effectively further
Assume this is a good thing
Ears agree. Sound opens up just a bit more
Eyes notice the cables have disappeared as they are now at the back of the rack and hanging better. Marco should approve !
I like these free fixes
4. Another diversion
Check speaker plugs to see that yes they have the little springs as promised by hifi_dave and others. 'Springing' them is going to be difficult. Decide to leave that for another day, but as the power amp is off and I'm lying on the floor I'll try that Deoxit at last.
Not a proper test I'm afraid but when I put Blowyn Pig back from pause on the Isis it seems quite a bit clearer, maybe a lot clearer - nice
On a roll so to try the MRCU no.9 against the MRCU Ultimate on the Technics
PSU and Whest.
Expecting subtle differences
Oh, not subtle on either
Are my ears deceiving me ?
Blind test on the boss
"The first one was much better" (The Ultimate)
Think that may be all the shuffling for a while
Rack 1
Technics
Gap
SUT
Naim 82
Whest 30r
Gap to allow top load for the Isis
Rega Isis
Rack 2
P10
Technics PSU
HiCaps
Naim 500 PSU
Naim 500
Pictures to follow when I think there are no more immediate changes.
May even be able to tidy some cables....
Excellent news, Mike. I'm glad that the exercise has been worthwhile. Look forward to seeing the pics. If you need me to post them for you, just pop me them in an email :)
Marco.
MikeMusic
26-03-2013, 11:09
Excellent news, Mike. I'm glad that the exercise has been worthwhile. Look forward to seeing the pics. If you need me to post them for you, just pop me them in an email :)
Marco.
Yes, was a nice surprise.
Funny how it can sound so good - then better !
Pic soon
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7245/bths121.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/132/bths121.jpg/)
Much better now, Mike... That's about as good as you're going to get it :)
The only thing I'd try is removing one of your Reference Tops from underneath the Techy and putting it under your P10. That *might* reduce the performance of the Techy slightly (although it will also make it more accessible), but it should improve the sound of the REST of your system, given how many bits of kit are plugged into it! ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
27-03-2013, 21:05
Thanks Marco
I'll take away one Ref top from the Technics and see how it sounds
I have a third I can use under the P10
but I will need an able bodied bloke to help me move it !
:)
That looks a whole lot better since I last saw it, Mike. Looking forward to hearing the improvement in SQ.
Lol... If you can get another layer of Mana under the P10, then so much the better!
Like I said, try at least putting one of your Ref Tops under the P10. I'm almost certain that you'll gain more (sonically) than you'll lose, especially in terms of how the Isis sounds ;)
Btw, one other thing I've noticed is that your P10 appears to be plugged into the right-hand socket of the second double wall socket on your wall. I can tell you that the left-hand socket of double wall sockets always sounds better than the one on the right, simply because that's the side that the earth goes into.
Therefore, if you plug your P10 into the L/H socket, you'll almost certainly hear an improvement - try it! :trust:
Marco.
MikeMusic
28-03-2013, 09:58
That looks a whole lot better since I last saw it, Mike. Looking forward to hearing the improvement in SQ.
You might remember the cables are nowhere near so noticeable in normal light, but I'll be working on them as well
Need to hear that Technics weight and Pre amp as soon as you like :)
MikeMusic
28-03-2013, 10:04
Lol... If you can get another layer of Mana under the P10, then so much the better!
Like I said, try at least putting one of your Ref Tops under the P10. I'm almost certain that you'll gain more (sonically) than you'll lose, especially in terms of how the Isis sounds ;)
Btw, one other thing I've noticed is that your P10 appears to be plugged into the right-hand socket of the second double wall socket on your wall. I can tell you that the left-hand socket of double wall sockets always sounds better than the one on the right, simply because that's the side that the earth goes into.
Therefore, if you plug your P10 into the L/H socket, you'll almost certainly hear an improvement - try it! :trust:
Marco.
I'll try moving the P10 with Sally but I think it will be too much to be safe
Will also check everything will still reach the P10 if it goes up 4-5"
I think the socket I got is earthed on the *right* hand side. Yes. I was surprised too
Will check on Sunday
Mike, above all don't lift anything that you can't safely handle. Hi-fi shenanigans are not worth injuring yourself for! Secondly, don't move the P10 if it results in leads being unduly stretched, as if that's the case, it will be a retrograde step.
Only put the other Ref top under the P10 if you can lift it safely and keep all cables connected from straining to reach where they should. If the wall socket in question gets its earth from the R/H side (which some do) then it'll be fine, but definitely check, as most don't.
Marco.
MikeMusic
28-03-2013, 10:44
Mike, above all don't lift anything that you can't safely handle. Hi-fi shenanigans are not worth injuring yourself for! Secondly, don't move the P10 if it results in leads being unduly stretched, as if that's the case, it will be a retrograde step.
Only put the other Ref top under the P10 if you can lift it safely and keep all cables connected from straining to reach where they should. If the wall socket in question gets its earth from the R/H side (which some do) then it'll be fine, but definitely check, as most don't.
Marco.
Good reminder.
The P10 came in and went where it is. Hasn't moved snice
Stepson Dan is favourite for moving that with me. Be a while before we see him again...
Could be ok with Sally. We can do a lift up and straight down before committing.
Do you think the spikes into the MDF board will be ok with a P10 on top ?
Socket will be checked Sunday
realysm42
28-03-2013, 11:24
You guys have got me thinking about the mess behind my system now. Once my mains conditioners is plugged in I'll have to get it sorted out.
Looking much better there, are you aware of/happy with any changes to the sound of you system now?
MikeMusic
28-03-2013, 11:42
You guys have got me thinking about the mess behind my system now. Once my mains conditioners is plugged in I'll have to get it sorted out.
Looking much better there, are you aware of/happy with any changes to the sound of you system now?
See above
Massive improvment moving the Isis, albeit from a similar, worse slot, rather than the exact slot it was in
Minor improvment moving the Technics PSU, SUT and SUT cable
Tidying up cables has to be a good thing even if only for the overall look.
I'll take a look at what I intend to do if it amounts to much and test the SQ before and after.
Cable lengths may restrict that.
Hi Martin,
You guys have got me thinking about the mess behind my system now. Once my mains conditioners is plugged in I'll have to get it sorted out.
Setting up a system, optimally, in order that its full sonic potential is realised, is fundamentally important if you want to hear what the gear you've invested your hard-earned money in is capable of...
It's not just a case of bunging the boxes and cables together any old way. Do that, and the performance of your system will only ever be half-cocked. Attention to detail, in terms of optimising equipment set up, always pays significant dividends - and best of all, the resulting sonic gains are FREE! ;)
Marco.
MikeMusic
28-03-2013, 13:01
Hi Martin,
Setting up a system, optimally, in order that its full sonic potential is realised, is fundamentally important if you want to hear what the gear you've invested your hard-earned money in is capable of...
It's not just a case of bunging the boxes and cables together any old way. Do that, and the performance of your system will only ever be half-cocked. Attention to detail, in terms of optimising equipment set up, always pays significant dividends - and best of all, the resulting sonic gains are FREE! ;)
Marco.
Free is good !
I might need to remove some of the surplus kit in the room too
:whistle:
MikeMusic
02-04-2013, 08:55
If the wall socket in question gets its earth from the R/H side (which some do) then it'll be fine, but definitely check, as most don't.
Marco.
This is a good, Missing Link socket which can take the earth input to either or both socket connections.
The in cable is connected to the RHS
Is there a benefit to connecting both up with another piece of earth wire and not make anything worse ?
No, don't do that Mike. I have a Missing Link silver double, too. I seem to remember mine feeds the earth input pretty equally to both sides but would need to remove the plate from the wall to verify. I still use the l/h socket for feeding the P10. Don't be playing with additional connecting earth wires as you may risk causing a 'situation' that you don't want :eek:
MikeMusic
02-04-2013, 09:20
No, don't do that Mike. I have a Missing Link silver double, too. I seem to remember mine feeds the earth input pretty equally to both sides but would need to remove the plate from the wall to verify. I still use the l/h socket for feeding the P10. Don't be playing with additional connecting earth wires as you may risk causing a 'situation' that you don't want :eek:
Very happy to leave well alone
That electrickery are right dangerous if annoyed
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