View Full Version : Which tannoys (revisited)? Lockwood Major vs GRF
montesquieu
09-03-2013, 17:40
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/montesquieu61/lockwoods-wide_zpsc9a624cb.jpg
Just brought home a pair of the reborn Lockwood Majors from Lockwood in Northwood, with my 15in Monitor Golds fitted inside.
They are big buggers - even bigger than the GRFs:
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/montesquieu61/lockwood-grf_zps7166fbf1.jpg
Crossovers are currently a lash-up as Nick G has my originals, fitting the Sowter autoformers and doing some general tweaking, but hopefully that will be sorted very soon.
First impressions - much more fussy than the GRFs as to room placement, an immediate improvement on my first placement by sticking them wide and out from the back. I will be able to test them back to back with the GRFs (more or less) as I've fitted some 15in HPDs in the old cabs. Other than that - slightly lower (but not necessarily more) bass, perhaps a shade less detail. All in all the MG's character isn't drastically altered by the cab it's in. (This is familiar after hearing some Westminsters and coming home to the MGs and thinking - not such a huge difference).
Wife was very happy as they have a real +ve WAF - the oiled (oak?) finish is lovely and even if the detail isn't in the megabucks bracket it still looks pretty nice.
I was a bit puzzled by one thing which is the hole cut in the bottom - I had presumed Lockwoods were sealed boxes (two chambers separated by a resistance layer). I've PM's Joe and Marco to compare with theirs. These are supposed to be a clone of some originals.
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/montesquieu61/lockwoods-base_zpsb33cc9ef.jpg
Ammonite Audio
09-03-2013, 20:02
The lower chamber is vented at the bottom, so that hole is as per the original design. I presume the original designer aimed for an aperiodic enclosure combined with a coupled cavity.
nice tom , whats the footprint size on these ? ta
very nice Tom not jealous at all :D
montesquieu
10-03-2013, 00:09
nice tom , whats the footprint size on these ? ta
71cm wide x 46cm deep x 116cm tall ('ish' ... I think the original specification was in inches). Taller but a whisker narrower than the GRFs, about the same depth.
The lower chamber is vented at the bottom, so that hole is as per the original design. I presume the original designer aimed for an aperiodic enclosure combined with a coupled cavity.
Looks that way...a sort of 4th order bandpass design perhaps? These are usually designed with a specific driver in mind as the driver parameters are very sensitive to any change in design of the coupled cavity. I think that the idea is that the impedance swings as the driver approaches resonant frequency are flattened and that upper bass SPLs are raised with the addition of the aperiodic enclosure coupled to the ported chamber. The port opening looks pretty huge and similar designs are generally critically dependant upon port sizing and shape for performance. It would be interesting to see the design for this.
They look lovely, Tom ... hope they satisfy the audio test, cos they look like 'keepers'!
I'm so jealous of the castors ...
Audioman
10-03-2013, 12:17
I was considering the new Lockwoods as a possibility when I get round to revamping my system. They appear to be a bargain but size could be an issue. They certainly look the part.
Paul.
montesquieu
17-03-2013, 20:23
Take 2 ... to be honest I wasn't 100% convinced by the performance of the originals, with their removable fronts and backs which I felt wasn't the ideal structure. Well it seems Lockwoods were experimenting with alternatives to this very probem. So on Saturday I swapped the original pair for a FRONT LOADING pair.
These have rather improved structural integrity having no opening front or back, just front access for the driver which bolts in from the front. The bottom port (which doesn't behave like a standard port anyway as it only ports the bottom 'aperiodic' chamber) has been replaced by fairly standard round front ports to the same dimensions. Also the resistance layer, while maintaining the same area, has been done differently to improve stiffness and provide extra bracing in the cabinet walls (which certainly feel much more 'dead').
Sound is fantastic, very punchy and the timing has snapped into place.
Are they better than the GRF, using the 15in Monitor Gold in both? Tricky question.
Well, they are different certainly. Lower bass for sure, probably more even in terms of response all round, top to bottom. Very musical. Perhaps not quite as 3D or as punchy in the midrange as the GRF. But the Lockwoods seem to require something different in terms of positioning ...they seem to prefer a wider stance, not sure about distance from back/side walls, still experimenting.
If I keep these I have to figure out how to fit the covers as Lockwoods hadn't quite got to that ... though perhaps just a hoop to cover the fixings might be idea, show off the 15in Golds in their majesty. Magnets possibly? Appreciate suggestions.
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/montesquieu61/lockwood-front_zpsc45c3b20.jpg
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x440/montesquieu61/lockwood-cover_zps20713c11.jpg
montesquieu
10-04-2013, 00:04
Just to sort of conclude this thread ... I sent the second pair back. Although they go lower I still very much prefer the presentation from the GRFs, and after a couple of weeks, putting them back in the GRF cabs was rather like coming home.
There really is something about the horn presentation that makes the whole thing just so EASY and natural.
Beginning to suspect now that the only way forward for me is a pair of Autographs ...
walpurgis
10-04-2013, 08:09
Sounds expensive. You'll need some room!
You can feel the horlicks slipping down a treat, now where did I put my Pat Barber best of 400 gram ultra vinyl super cleaned copy :wheniwasaboy:
I am sorry gents wardrobes do not make quality music to my ears, they give a safe warm and non offensive sound they can go loud unless you have upgraded them.
Must have listened to around 20 pairs thus far and every time its nice and jazz cats, must be an English / Japanese fetish.
I'm sorry about that
they give a non offensive sound
Thats about it for me and they don't make my ears bleed either
Hi John
Certainly would agree with 100% there :)
As far as ear bleeding sound are concerned they are generally caused by amplifier /speaker mismatch, wrong placement, first reflection issues not being addressed.
Other possible causes bad speaker design, inexpensive tweeter, poor x/over integration, delightful silver plated 1.0mm multi -stranded copper internal wiring.
Recently we used a Harbeth's at an event, very enjoyable and musical if a touch laid back.
montesquieu
12-04-2013, 18:28
Hi John
Certainly would agree with 100% there :)
As far as ear bleeding sound are concerned they are generally caused by amplifier /speaker mismatch, wrong placement, first reflection issues not being addressed.
Other possible causes bad speaker design, inexpensive tweeter, poor x/over integration, delightful silver plated 1.0mm multi -stranded copper internal wiring.
Recently we used a Harbeth's at an event, very enjoyable and musical if a touch laid back.
Can't be bothered with most Harbeths myself. Musical isn't a word I'd associate with the bigger ones but the little ones are OK.
I am sorry gents wardrobes do not make quality music to my ears, they give a safe warm and non offensive sound they can go loud unless you have upgraded them.
Arf... Thank fook my "wardrobes" don't sound like that!! :lol:
It's amazing how influential the little things are, such as proper crossovers and cabinets.... ;)
Marco.
Can't be bothered with most Harbeths myself. Musical isn't a word I'd associate with the bigger ones but the little ones are OK.
Tom,
Please do elaborate on this I am very curious as to your observations given the amount of audio note equipment you have.
I do not sell Harbeth's however they have great following and attract a lot of admirers here in the UK and abroad.
Do you benchmark every against against wardrobes when you are reviewing?
All of my Audio Note clients (around 30) are not running Tannoy's of any description most have gone through this process and ended up out the other side at some point in their audio life.
In fairness the real audiophile hifi buff who chooses classical / Jazz/ acoustic artists listen material for its good quality recordings usually look for the hifi experience, something they feel the Tannoy's do not deliver.
However that does not make them enjoyable to many people.
Marco
Your wardrobes are akin to Arnold Schwarzenegger on steroids being driven (or ios that pile drive) by a hyper naimifed ful valve contingent being fed intravenously by speed :D and are about as far away from stock wardrobes as one man and his dog is to base jumping :ner:
Genuine question here, are you bass drivers very close to your ear height when you are listening Marco?
Sorry chaps had a long day trying to sort out other people's attempt's at upgrading :mental:
Though this may surprise you Marco currently listening to some 300B's through a new horn design, actually very listenable, and horns are not my thing.
Que a negative reality inversion of epic proportions..............
You can feel the horlicks slipping down a treat, now where did I put my Pat Barber best of 400 gram ultra vinyl super cleaned copy :wheniwasaboy:
I am sorry gents wardrobes do not make quality music to my ears, they give a safe warm and non offensive sound they can go loud unless you have upgraded them.
Must have listened to around 20 pairs thus far and every time its nice and jazz cats, must be an English / Japanese fetish.
I'm sorry about that
Is that all "wardrobes" just 15 inch MGs in Lockwood cabs, 12 inch drivered wardrobes, 10 inch wardrobes, HPD variants or what?
Each to their own but your observations seem to be more of a generalisation. Can you be more specific? I've owned Harbeths, and here I agree with Tom. They are too compromised imho to be good all rounders and what you described about the "wardrobes" is exactly what I'd say about the Harbeths. great with plinky plonky jazz but unless its the superb M40's or M40.1's they seem too compromised to be good all rounders, at least to my ears.
12 inch "wardrobes" have better transient speed imho than 15 inch "wardrobes" and both do genuine bass and scale, something that little harbys don't really do well.
I've owned many so called "high end" speakers and vintage Tannoys with PROPERLY sorted crossovers in decent cabinets are a tough act to follow. All the usual complaints are rarely voiced when you hear a decently set up pair rather than a tired older set with 40 year old crossovers in highly resonant and under-sized cabs.
Context is everything.
Tom,
All of my Audio Note clients (around 30) are not running Tannoy's of any description most have gone through this process and ended up out the other side at some point in their audio life.
.
Out of interest what speakers have your AN clients gone to?
Evening Paul
Honest and genuine reply spoken with experience of the brand, and I would say some nice work on your new cabinet construction on the other thread, some good skills on display Paul.
With regard to the Harbeth comment you are comparing apples to pears in sheer cabinet volume and driver displacement and amount of possible reproduced scale.
My observations we based on the enjoyability of the listeners in the room and the ease of sound. They are not going to compete on room filling ability of amount of air physically moved without question.
The Sterling Broadcasts / Harbeths to some extent splendor are all based around the classic 'Hello and welcome to the BBC' monitor format, the wardrobes were not designed in that mold I feel.
With regard to my personal experience with Tannoy's, I would agree the 12" units are more agile and keep a more realistic PRaT, depth of field, and texture they do have many positive qualities that I am not denying.
I have rebuilt around 4 pairs over the years including a rather special pair that had off board cross overs and were fully active.
Partnering equipment, from 8W Tripath to a full Audio Note, trans / dac signature 5 plus +, M10 and Gakon 211's (One of Peter's own pairs) in a rooms that have more than enough space to really make them breathe.
For me personally I find them coloured, boxy, lacking dynamics, texture and depth plus the ability of the speaker to remove them selves from the equation. That is my experiences with them.
Now before you all jump up and down, and decide I need to be hung outside the factory gates at Coatbridge, remember we all like different presentations and tastes in our music, the wardrobes are what I call cheap speed (I mean that not in a disparaging way) you get a big fun sound that entertains for not a lot of outlay and with careful driver, x/over / wiring upgrades you can improve their performance by a number of factors.
I am very fortunate to be able to select a number of high quality speakers at different costings to listen to on regular basis so I can make these observations. I would all agree all that glitters in not gold, not all costly items are good, far from it.
Over the years I have found the better speakers have been manufacturer by companies that make their own drivers, that way compromises in cabinet design, driver alignment, x/over slopes, components and looks are not compromised in the same way that other companies have to deal with.
I will say 100% that the clients we do have with Tannoy's usually do end up with other models and do tend to stick with them for longer periods too.
If we all liked the same, life would be very Stepford wives :)
Out of interest what speakers have your AN clients gone to?
Hi Stu
Quite diverse in fact, from Snells, to Large Focal's, Kharma's, Zingarli's one or two with compression drivers, though they changed within the year back after the love affair ended to AN model 'E's the odd one or two with Living voice. A couple with original Quad's as well.
Speakers are a very personal choice and one which is the most important in assembling a system I feel.
For me purity of sound is where I am at, not clinical or matter of fact but genuine fluid natural with unhindered dynamics.
It is difficult to obtain this and took many years of trying various pieces of equipment.
Back to my comment regarding Harbeth's they are diametrically opposite what I would normally listen to, however I found them very listenable and not requiring a large room or particularly fussy partnering equipment.
Perhaps when you have finished your speakers Paul you would be good enough to let me have a listen and floats your boat. My family roots are from your area.
Hehehe... Sounds like you're having fun, Tony. When you get horns right, they're surprisingly musical, and also very realistic, especially when reproducing things like sax and trumpet - nothing else does it the same! Just don't feed them modern, compressed, recordings or be prepared to run for the hills! :eek:
Your wardrobes are akin to Arnold Schwarzenegger on steroids being driven (or ios that pile drive) by a hyper naimifed ful valve contingent being fed intravenously by speed and are about as far away from stock wardrobes as one man and his dog is to base jumping
An interesting and not entirely inaccurate description! :D
Genuine question here, are you bass drivers very close to your ear height when you are listening Marco?
Not sure wotcha mean, dude... Do you mean how far away am I from the speakers when listening? Also, they're dual-concentrics, so there are no 'bass drivers', as such :scratch:
Marco.
walpurgis
12-04-2013, 21:00
Tom,
Please do elaborate on this I am very curious as to your observations given the amount of audio note equipment you have.
I do not sell Harbeth's however they have great following and attract a lot of admirers here in the UK and abroad.
Do you benchmark every against against wardrobes when you are reviewing?
All of my Audio Note clients (around 30) are not running Tannoy's of any description most have gone through this process and ended up out the other side at some point in their audio life.
In fairness the real audiophile hifi buff who chooses classical / Jazz/ acoustic artists listen material for its good quality recordings usually look for the hifi experience, something they feel the Tannoy's do not deliver.
However that does not make them enjoyable to many people.
Marco
Your wardrobes are akin to Arnold Schwarzenegger on steroids being driven (or ios that pile drive) by a hyper naimifed ful valve contingent being fed intravenously by speed :D and are about as far away from stock wardrobes as one man and his dog is to base jumping :ner:
Genuine question here, are you bass drivers very close to your ear height when you are listening Marco?
Sorry chaps had a long day trying to sort out other people's attempt's at upgrading :mental:
Though this may surprise you Marco currently listening to some 300B's through a new horn design, actually very listenable, and horns are not my thing.
Que a negative reality inversion of epic proportions..............
So what is it you're actually saying?
I'm not sure I understood much of the above, other than getting the idea that you don't like Tannoys.
montesquieu
12-04-2013, 21:28
I am a great fan of Audio Note sources and doubt I'll ever exchange my AN DAC for anything, likewise my (Kondo era) Io and AN-S6.
AN speakers, however, I've found seriously lacking, and therefore also the amps as they are designed to go together. (Not a huge fan of the M3 either).
I've had the AN-HEs in head to head with the Tannoys, the latter driven by a Tube Distinctions KT88 amp, the former by by the top-end OTO SE Signature and the Meishu Phono Signature (both of which disappointed, the latter quite dreadfully). Ive also tried all these amps with the Tannoys, as well as Conquests. I agree that they sound awful in partnership mainly as the 15in Tannoys need a good PP amp to provide sufficient damping for those massive cones. While some SE implementations are indeed truly spectacular, I don't believe SE has any inherent superiority over PP, having owned a few and heard many I have concluded that much of what is written about them is constructed purely in the mind of those who have decided they like the idea of them.
The AN-HEs (and the plain old E's I tried earlier) were pleasant enough but lacked the scale, body and visceral emption of the Tannoys while being arguably slightly better with space and depth - a trade-off that wasn't to my taste. I had the argument with both Peter Q and with Mario who were both reluctant to accept that back to back I could prefer the Tannoys but there it is - to my mind the speakers are the weakest link of the AN range and Peter & co really ought to do something rather more interesting that recycle a couple of old Snell designs reworked to death - they surely have the resources and the brainpower to produce something properly worthy of a design like the Ongaku.
As Paul states, with modern crossovers (mine are a stage beyond what Paul has attempted in terms of component selection), proper wiring, and decent cabinets (not the cheapo chipboard vintage Tannoy ones), Monitor Golds are capable of astonishing things, leaving Harbeths (which to be fair I rate reasonably well as 'hifi' speakers) somewhat in the dust.
My background is one of former professional musician (at various times in my life performing classical music, jazz and folk-jazz fusion for money), previously a university organ scholar and choral master. I'm not the least interested in 'hifi' for its own sake, by far the largest investment I have made is in records (between 3-4000 mainly early music, baroque and classical, a huge percentage of them chamber music and lieder). Playing this sort of stuff for the emotion, not as an assessment of so called hi-fidelity reproduction, the Harbeths just don't cut it. (Stick to girl-with-guitar). In fact give me my old Quad 57s any day.
BTW I handed back the modern Lockwood 'wardrobes' - I suspect they are just not as well constructed as the vintage ones and introduced rather too much boxy coloration for my taste - and went back to my rather well-sorted GRFs. As a mid-horn they have quite a different character to any ported design and have a sense of immediacy that's utterly enchanting. As I say above, I think Autographs (which, like the Westminster, is a full-range double horn) have to be my next (hopefully final) port of call.
What I'm detecting here is someone who made his mind up long ago and who may not appreciate that things may have moved on in the world of Tannoy. You are most welcome to come round and listen what a good AN front end can achieve through a pair of properly sorted Tannoys.
Hi Stu
Quite diverse in fact, from Snells, to Large Focal's, Kharma's, Zingarli's one or two with compression drivers, though they changed within the year back after the love affair ended to AN model 'E's the odd one or two with Living voice. A couple with original Quad's as well.
Speakers are a very personal choice and one which is the most important in assembling a system I feel.
For me purity of sound is where I am at, not clinical or matter of fact but genuine fluid natural with unhindered dynamics.
It is difficult to obtain this and took many years of trying various pieces of equipment.
Back to my comment regarding Harbeth's they are diametrically opposite what I would normally listen to, however I found them very listenable and not requiring a large room or particularly fussy partnering equipment.
Perhaps when you have finished your speakers Paul you would be good enough to let me have a listen and floats your boat. My family roots are from your area.
Of course you can and you'd be very welcome.
As an aside, I've owned (and enjoyed) Zingali Overtures, Horning Aagthon Ultimates, Harbeth SHL5's, Lumley Lampros 300AB's, various Proacs and many many more. All have been different and none have been perfect. Anyone who claims to have invented a speaker without compromise is lying as there's no such thing. All are compromised in some way, shape of form, so at the end of the day it is all down to personal preference.
My own experience leads me to believe that some are better than others at being good all-rounders (and the list is surprisingly short!) and its not just the tone they can reproduce, or the scale. It's being efficient at lower volumes, it's not having obvious phase shift (something I am very sensitive to) with frequency shifts; it's having genuine texture and effortless extension in the bass department, sparkling highs without drawing attention and mids that allow Callas at full chat to be in the room without ears bleeding:lol:
Few, if any, tick all of those boxes. My ideal for treble would be the Horning lotus tweeter...nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing touches it for realism without drawing attention to itself;' for the mids, nothing engages like either a 3 or 4 inch Morel domed mid driver or an 8 inch Harbeth RADIAL but for effortless bass which isn't full of boom or thump but etches the lowest cello notes into the air space in front of you with startling realism, nothing I've heard really betters the Tannoy HPD units. Tannoy famously do the disappearing trick due to the point source nature of the DC geometry and for large boxes, the imaging is exceptional to my mind.
Where they fall short is in the crossover and cabinets, but also at the crossover point, notch filter or no, there is a notable if very slight lift. This is usually made ten times worse by drifting component values and drastically insufficient damping behind the driver leading to increased reflections and distortion at and just above the crossover point which happens to lie within the most sensitive audible band of between 1 and 3 kHz.
This is why very special attention to detail in cabinet design and crossover tuning pays dividends with Tannoys if their true potential is to be realised. They may not be perfect but they are as "hifi" as anything made today, agile, dynamic and detailed as well as well balanced but ONLY if attention to detail is observed. All imho of course. It is very personal so there's no right and wrong with whatever each of us chooses. The main thing is that we pick something that allows us to engage emotionally with the music and if that doesn't happen, 9 times out of ten, it isn't the cables, or source components or amp, it's the speakers and the room they're in. That's my take. By all means come and have a listen to my humble DIY efforts and with a fair wind I may even convince you that my 40 year old HPDs can cut it with the big boys ;)
Not sure wotcha mean, dude... Do you mean how far away am I from the speakers when listening? Also, they're dual-concentrics, so there are no 'bass drivers', as such :scratch:
Marco.
Hi Marco
I will clarify how many levels of mana are you speakers sitting on, I have visions old Linn Briks sitting 4 feet in the air so that the 6 x 9's are around ear height.
Oh, only one level now, mate - I had to use some that were originally designed to house massive Krell power amps! Normal Mana Soundstages are way too small for the Lockies :eyebrows:
Therefore, to answer your question, the drivers are around ear height, from my listening position - no higher than that :)
Marco.
Of course you can and you'd be very welcome.
As an aside, I've owned (and enjoyed) Zingali Overtures, Horning Aagthon Ultimates, Harbeth SHL5's, Lumley Lampros 300AB's, various Proacs and many many more. All have been different and none have been perfect. Anyone who claims to have invented a speaker without compromise is lying as there's no such thing. All are compromised in some way, shape of form, so at the end of the day it is all down to personal preference.
Hi Paul
Going to agree with you on the perfect speaker 100%
You going to hate me again Horning's sorry just do not see what the fuss is about (that's another story) Completely understand the principle but feel the execution is a long way off. Lumley's a truly over-hyped under performing speaker brand in every way.
Prozac's to, leave me feeling as cold a Siberian winter
However as you say it is all personal and that is the key :)
My own experience leads me to believe that some are better than others at being good all-rounders (and the list is surprisingly short!) and its not just the tone they can reproduce, or the scale. It's being efficient at lower volumes, it's not having obvious phase shift (something I am very sensitive to) with frequency shifts; it's having genuine texture and effortless extension in the bass department, sparkling highs without drawing attention and mids that allow Callas at full chat to be in the room without ears bleeding:lol:
They are a few around that are more than capable of delivering this, however how much true realism can you handle.
In that 'being there' is two fold, if you were listening to a 120 piece orchestra going full bore on a piece of Stravinsky whilst in the front row, this would deliver a total dynamic and intimidate presentation which after a short while would be 'too much'
Conversely having John McLaughlin playing where your system was situated would give an amazing sound but again would deliver that I've had enough feeling after a while.
This is realism pure and untainted, however could we live with it all day every day?
Few, if any, tick all of those boxes. My ideal for treble would be the Horning lotus tweeter...nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing touches it for realism without drawing attention to itself;' for the mids, nothing engages like either a 3 or 4 inch Morel domed mid driver or an 8 inch Harbeth RADIAL but for effortless bass which isn't full of boom or thump but etches the lowest cello notes into the air space in front of you with startling realism, nothing I've heard really betters the Tannoy HPD units. Tannoy famously do the disappearing trick due to the point source nature of the DC geometry and for large boxes, the imaging is exceptional to my mind.
Paul,
True point source done correctly is expectational with out question, every Tannoy's / Kef I have heard to date has not eradicated the diffractional issues that still exist with these speakers.
The Morel drivers have merit I agree, the Horning tweeter we will disagree on.
I am genuinely keen to hear a pair of Tannoy's (or many other speakers) reproduce sub 27Hz in room with music and not have any time smearing, lumpy one note bass.
Where they fall short is in the crossover and cabinets, but also at the crossover point, notch filter or no, there is a notable if very slight lift. This is usually made ten times worse by drifting component values and drastically insufficient damping behind the driver leading to increased reflections and distortion at and just above the crossover point which happens to lie within the most sensitive audible band of between 1 and 3 kHz.
This is why very special attention to detail in cabinet design and crossover tuning pays dividends with Tannoys if their true potential is to be realised. They may not be perfect but they are as "hifi" as anything made today, agile, dynamic and detailed as well as well balanced but ONLY if attention to detail is observed. All imho of course. It is very personal so there's no right and wrong with whatever each of us chooses. The main thing is that we pick something that allows us to engage emotionally with the music and if that doesn't happen, 9 times out of ten, it isn't the cables, or source components or amp, it's the speakers and the room they're in. That's my take. By all means come and have a listen to my humble DIY efforts and with a fair wind I may even convince you that my 40 year old HPDs can cut it with the big boys ;)
Again I do agree with the majority of comments Paul, your woodwork skills are first rate and I do admire anyone who takes on a project like this and can complete to the high standard which you obviously have sir :)
The room speaker interaction is the biggest make or break in any system without question.
Hmmm, there was nowt wrong with the Agathon Ultimates, they were superb. The only issues with the Lampros 300ab's as I recall was too much phase shift, other than that both were hugely enjoyable and had real strengths. Proacs far from sending one to sleep were the complete opposite...fast, forward and energetic but not for me as they were too forward. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Tannoys. They're not everyone's cup of tea and obviously not yours but that doesn't make them any less competent if done properly, no matter what critics may argue (I suspect that most doing the arguing have never heard a well set up pair). Different strokes. The main thing is you find something you enjoy and stick with it, warts and all.
Hello Paul
Now I have some time this week I am going to reply.
Going to explain my reasons for my comments on this thread.
I feel that my time in a recording studio from early age and playing in band for just over 30 years now, gives me a different perception of reproduced music and how it actually sounds in various environments, whether a church hall, intimate 30 person club, wide open concert hall, 200 seater auditorium or sound proofed recording booth. Not as people over the years have 'told' me it should sound like :eek:
Every one of us has a 'perception' of how we feel reproduced music should sound.
If we take Tom as a classical / jazz musician looks for in his desired sound the items he holds most dear, usually taken form his time playing professionally.
We have around 40 professional players as clients, all playing difference genres of music. Each is looking for a specific traits that rings their bell so to speak.
One gent plays in a famous string quartet, he style of presentation is pure and simple, tonal and dynamic accuracy nothing more or less.
His own words "Its got to sound like my instrument" or the system fails for him. He is not interested in a 18 foot Eric Clapton or a soft and creamy Diana Krell. Overall nice and safe sounding systems are not for that individual, because he feels it does not represent the way HE hears music being played. Neither is he tolerant of aggressive or chrome plated treble sounding systems.
He would not seek a system purely for imaging, staging or with exaggerated upper frequency response (Artificial sparkly hifi sounding HF) nor would he look for sub terrain bass depth. He just wishes for a a system to sound like his playing (An intimate string quartet)
For myself I play the drums in a blues band, (You know the one, the guy who hang's around with other musician's :lol:)
Sometimes we expand the group to a 10 or 12 piece, next to me I have a Flugal horn, a kick horn and an alto sax possibly ten feet away to my right.
Have you ever heard a small group of brass in a close quarter environment, its not pleasant even with quality musicians the sound is RAW, and brash simply because of the distance, and the sound they generate.
To recreate this exact sound is nigh on impossible, so in the studio it's made to sound more listenable on the majority of listening equipment that physically could not replicate the sound. So it is compressed, rolled off, squashed to a degree according to the mastering engineer / record company.
The vast majority of audio equipment gives an approximation of the recorded event to a great or less degree, dependent on price, skill of the design engineer, determination of the DIY enthusiast or plain dogged tenacity of the person perusing their sonic dream.
The question is what level are you happy with, and each person is different Paul.
My critique if you like of the Tannoy's is purely my own personal standards being very exacting nothing more.
They do give many hours of pleasure to a great many people and is their presentation no less valid than say PMC's or Verity Audio?
I will concede one point you made on the Prozac's the D100's were actually respectfully dynamic, if a little forward.
Hope that helps clarify things Paul.
Tony
Hi Tony
good response but I feel the issue about what we judge speakers on is a little over simplified as you and I both know that what a brass quartet sounds like close up isn't the way we listen at a concert or at home for example. For the record, I was an amateur musician for many years and played tenor trombone (orchestra and band), and still play around with classical guitar occasionally.
Studio monitoring really bears little resemblance of how we like to listen at home as I'm sure you'd agree. That application is more analytical, looking to identify layers in a mix and can be at very loud SPLs too. I don't obviously have anything like your experience in that field so bow to your superior knowledge there. Broadcast monitors are a different ball game though.
Tom and I have very similar Classical music tastes although I tend to listen to a very broad spectrum of music and whilst there are loudspeakers that do it all very well indeed, my experience tends to support the view that these (for the most part) are very expensive, that being a direct reflection of the engineering, design, materials quality and construction quality. Good speakers do not come cheap. Most imho up to a price point these days (and even beyond it) tend to be fashion boxes built down to a cost and for maximum profitability. I know what trade cost is on many new speakers, know the very large mark ups employed and also know what building my own has cost me. I wouldn't get anywhere close to affording commercial loudpseakers of the quality of design and construction I've tried to employ on doing my own.
I know what a violin sounds like as I've listened to enough quartets live, I know what the human voice should sound like (don't we all?), and I know exactly what brass should sound like ;)
For me, Tannoys may not be perfect, of course there are much more neutral and probably better measuring speakers out there, but their effortless sense of scale, the midrange (if crossovers are done properly!), upper bass and even there HF detail (same crossover comments apply!) seem very well balanced to me. I'm not interested in whether I have "the best" as that for me personally is a nonsense. I am just interested in speakers which can connect me emotionally to the music without drawing too much attention to themselves. I don't seek to recreate live performances in my living room because I don't particularly want 115dB transients deafening me, so it's not about the live event either.
I agree that tonal accuracy is very important and whilst there are speakers that do various aspects of tonal accuracy better, I like what a well set up pair of Tannoys do as well. It's all a compromise at the end of the day not least because our rooms play a huge part in what the final sound is like too.
Same hymn book, just slightly different pages!
Hello Paul
I am in complete agreement with you regarding studio monitor being used as home audio transducers (atc / pmc / adam / m&k etc)
These are designed to do a specific job for giving you maximum information in the mixing / mastering suites
At home is a very different story 95% of most listeners would baulk at having to listen to that style of presentation for more than 15minutes
Finding the balance is the key which is what a good dealer will perform with a client by understanding his / her needs which will be very different from the previous clients requirements
A well balanced system should be able to recreate a quality sound at very low volumes have a texture and depth that give a good approximation of realistic scale bass depth detail timing and a top to bottom linear response
The cost of speakers is a wide river ranging from £250 to £ what ever you wish pay
If you added up you total time spent on design and research materials reworking of the project and finishing then factor in marketing literature advertising shows dealer visits you would find your speakers would be around the £18-£20k mark
The last electronic design project I worked was steamer Dac around 300 hours quite a few boards and components etc how all this gets factored into the while price
There are good speakers out that really work well and tick the boxes they might not have the big names attached however they perform
Again partnering synergy is also a critical point in system overall performance in the way you express I would appreciate a well sorted and set up of Tannoys I would also counterpoint that a well set up pair of Focal Kharma Veritys martens eggless tone works magicos can sound special however the majority are not well partnered or set up
Tony
Hello Paul
I am in complete agreement with you regarding studio monitor being used as home audio transducers (atc / pmc / adam / m&k etc)
These are designed to do a specific job for giving you maximum information in the mixing / mastering suites
At home is a very different story 95% of most listeners would baulk at having to listen to that style of presentation for more than 15minutes
Finding the balance is the key which is what a good dealer will perform with a client by understanding his / her needs which will be very different from the previous clients requirements
A well balanced system should be able to recreate a quality sound at very low volumes have a texture and depth that give a good approximation of realistic scale bass depth detail timing and a top to bottom linear response
The cost of speakers is a wide river ranging from £250 to £ what ever you wish pay
If you added up you total time spent on design and research materials reworking of the project and finishing then factor in marketing literature advertising shows dealer visits you would find your speakers would be around the £18-£20k mark
The last electronic design project I worked was steamer Dac around 300 hours quite a few boards and components etc how all this gets factored into the while price
There are good speakers out that really work well and tick the boxes they might not have the big names attached however they perform
Again partnering synergy is also a critical point in system overall performance in the way you express I would appreciate a well sorted and set up of Tannoys I would also counterpoint that a well set up pair of Focal Kharma Veritys martens eggless tone works magicos can sound special however the majority are not well partnered or set up
Tony
Agree 100% Tony. Heard most in your list, but never been a fan of the Kharmas personally. I think that you and many others may be in for a pleasant surprise if you'd attach a £20K price tag to the DIY Tannoys. I've just finished designing my own crossovers which are closer to what Tannoy intended than many aftermarket ones (a few common errors are made on just about all aftermarket Tannoy x-overs I've come across in respect of the HF circuit because confusion reigns over fixed values when the autoformer is removed). I will be offering to make the cabs for people for a fraction of the cost you mentioned or offering completed speakers for way less than half the amount mentioned, so in line with RFC tradition, they will, I hope, represent top quality at outstanding value. Difference is, I would only be able to manufacture a handful of pairs per year!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.