View Full Version : Tyre question
Covenant
08-03-2013, 08:58
My son had an accident in his Renault Clio the other day (not hurt but needs a new door). Going into a roundabout he uses every day he lost the rear end, over corrected and slammed the offside into a lamp post.
He swears he wasn't going too fast and the road was dry. The only thing of note is that the front two tryes has been replaced about two weeks ago and someone suggested the new tyres should have gone on the back with the old ones swapped to the front.
Would this have made a difference?
I would always have the newer tyres on the front in a front-wheel drive car (like a Clio) personally. (They have to do both the driving and steering.) Unless the rears are really bald it is unlikely to have made much difference if they were swapped IMHO - most likely spilled diesel or some such on the roundabout caused it.
brian2957
08-03-2013, 09:51
The new tyres were correctly fitted on the front Jerry as they are the wheels which steer and also drive the car . Hope he's not too shaken mate . Kids do tend to drive too fast , my daughter certainly does , and it appears to be the way they're taught by instructors these days . That is to drive right up to the speed limit . They don't seem to realise that they can drive way below the limit ( and be much safer ). Are the rear tyres OK BTW .
The new tyres were correctly fitted to the front. If it was dry, tread wear would have made little difference to the rear tyres' grip unless they are very old and the rubber has aged. It sounds like a case of misjudging entry speed to me, something that inexperienced drivers are prone to doing.
freefallrob
08-03-2013, 10:15
I hope he's ok.
Sounds like classic 'lift off over steer' to me.
I always have my new tyres fitted to the front as that's where all the work is done on my front wheel drive car.
Most modern cars are designed to under steer (safe), some little sporty numbers have an 'adjustable more mobile' rear end.....
It's possible that the accident could have been avoided with new tyres on the rear, but it sounds like grease/diesel/speed have caught him out.
I think the words "slammed into a lamp post" is the key to this particular mishap and the tyre configuration played very little if any part.
Having said that, we have recently had quite a long dry spell and the smallest amount of drizzle on the road sometimes turns the accumulated leaves, rubbish, dust and rubber into a slippery paste almost as bad as ice. This usually occurs after a hot dry period and I suppose it's not impossible for it to happen at lower temperatures.
Give him a clip round the ear just to make sure :eyebrows:
Covenant
08-03-2013, 10:36
Thanks for your concern chaps-he really is fine. I dropped him off at work an hour after the accident. Just some glass from the door window stuck in his arse!
It did make me shudder though at how close he came to a serious accident. He actually spat some glass out of his mouth!
Just getting some quotes for a door second hand. Amazingly cheap. How about this-a local one man trader will supply and fit for £45. Only trouble is that it's not the same colour and my son doesn't want to spend out on a respray.
I will take a photo in a sec.
Covenant
08-03-2013, 10:48
He is bigger than me Frank, don't think he would take kindly to a clip round the ear.
Rear tyres are ok, not as much tread as the front but they dont need replacing.
Ouch, it's clipped the bottom sill too, not so easy to repair and a give-away on resale.
Glad he's ok, lesson will have been learned.
walpurgis
08-03-2013, 11:11
Glad your boy's OK Jerry.
Alex is right about the best tyres being on the front with a front wheel drive car, mind you 'best' does not mean much as ALL the tyres should be good and safe!
Some thoughts,
I believe there is a requirement on local authorities to lay an 'anti-skid' treatment at the approach to roundabouts and some junctions, depending on the category of road, had this been done?
Were the new tyres 'run in'? All tyres have a short break in period where the surface scrubs and the compliance of the tread alters slightly. Even a lack of adhesion from a front tyre can provoke the back of the car to follow suit.
Have the rear shock absorbers been checked? Bad shockers can cause loss of grip.
Also, if the car was near the kerb on either side, it could have skidded on one of the build ups of loose grit that occur at junctions to the edge of lanes. I have actually seen this cause accidents.
Of course there's no getting away from the fact it could just be a cock-up on your son's part, but at least he's OK and it sounds like the car has got off relatively lightly.
By the way, that sill should be easily fixable. Just tap the edges of the ding in slightly to make sure they don't protrude out beyond the rest of the sill surface line, then fill, contour, smooth and spray, (don't forget the clear lacquer coat) polish to suit after!
On a front wheel drive car if replacing just two tyres the tyres should be fitted to the BACK wheels not the front. The reason is to set the handling of the car so it favours understeer rather than oversteer.
Under steer is easier to correct and for a novice drive much safer, the advise above to fit to the front is incorrect.
What make are the rear tyres?
I have cheapo budget tyres from black circles on my espace which I use for bike (not family) transportation. They are awful!!! It's not uncommon to feel all 4 wheels complaining on roundabouts if you are even slightly over zealous! In the wet it's like driving on snow :(
Covenant
08-03-2013, 11:53
[QUOTE=UV101;420418]What make are the rear tyres?
Mohawk on one rear wheel and Tiga on the other :lol:
Interesting that Neal thinks the tyres should have been put on the rear-any more opinions?
walpurgis
08-03-2013, 12:03
[QUOTE=UV101;420418]What make are the rear tyres?
Mohawk on one rear wheel and Tiga on the other :lol:
Interesting that Neal thinks the tyres should have been put on the rear-any more opinions?
Don't agree.
Assuming all tyres are in safe condition and new tyres have had their 'break in', it should make no difference.
In modern cars, oversteer and understeer to an extent that affects the car's balance are something the average driver will not encounter in normal driving. Most drivers would not even know what they were.
Hard driving is different, then these characteristics come into play, but that's not the way to impress the local constabulary.
wiicrackpot
08-03-2013, 12:04
On a front wheel drive car if replacing just two tyres the tyres should be fitted to the BACK wheels not the front. The reason is to set the handling of the car so it favours understeer rather than oversteer.
Under steer is easier to correct and for a novice drive much safer, the advise above to fit to the front is incorrect.
I thought that all along, thought i was wrong so stand to be corrected. :scratch:
Ali Tait
08-03-2013, 12:16
Sure I remember seeing an item on Top Gear to this effect, it was better to put the new tyres on the rear for a front wheel drive car.
Mohawk on one rear wheel and Tiga on the other :lol:
Oh, good grief. Why do people buy these things? Economising on tyres is not the thing to do.
[QUOTE=Covenant;420426]
Don't agree.
Assuming all tyres are in safe condition and new tyres have had their 'break in', it should make no difference.
In modern cars, oversteer and understeer to an extent that affects the car's balance are something the average driver will not encounter in normal driving. Most drivers would not even know what they were.
Hard driving is different, then these characteristics come into play, but that's not the way to impress the local constabulary.
It does make a difference. The advise given by motoring organisations and tyre outlets is to put the new tyres of a pair on the back wheels because of the handling. You can get under steer or oversteer at low speeds, you do not have to be driving hard to provoke one or the other...
I think Tiff Needell demonstrated the effect on TV once...
The advice from august bodies such as the DVLA, RAC and AA, much to my surprise, is that new tyres should always be fitted to the rear, for two reasons (I read this off a poster at my local tyre fitters the other day!) The reasons are two-fold: first, if one pair of tyres has less grip than the other, it's better to have them on the front so that any loss of grip results in understeer rather than oversteer, second, any change in handling behaviour will be less marked on the back than on the front, so an inexperienced driver is less likely to be unsettled by the change.
I would say that your son was probably the victim of a combination of damp on top of diesel on top of dust/mud left after a relatively long dry spell, compounded by crap rear tyres. Unless they were totally bald or so old that they'd hardened off, the rear tyres' state of wear probably wasn't a significant contributor. The same would probably have happened if they were new. Cheap tyres are cheap for a reason.
We have had many Clio's over the years from the MK1 up to a Clio 172 Sport Cup I had for a couple of years. The earlier Clio's had dreadful oversteer on roundabouts and I nearly shit myself one day and I was not going that fast.
The contrast with the Cup, well it was great fun making a tripod out of it going round roundabouts:eek:
Couldn't find the Tiff vid so this will have to do....:doh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xzQQfT5O84&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I sit corrected, then - I'll remember that for the future if I ever another get a front wheel drive car.
brian2957
08-03-2013, 16:02
Oh, good grief. Why do people buy these things? Economising on tyres is not the thing to do.
Particularly with a new young driver .
Covenant
08-03-2013, 16:08
Particularly with a new young driver .
It was only by constant nagging and a bribe that I got him to replace the illegal front ones. The back ones were on when he bought it.
The whole car will get checked out after the door repair but it's no wonder than things get scrimped when insurance costs so much.
brian2957
08-03-2013, 16:12
Yup you're right mate . Fortunately my 18 year old daughter shares a fairly new car with her mother and it gets checked / serviced regularly . However insuring her is bliddy ridiculous :steam: . She's at Uni. so couldn't afford to do it herself .
walpurgis
08-03-2013, 18:33
A bit of minor front drift may be easy enough to deal with, but a sudden front end skid is not easy to correct for an average driver. Having spent the best part of twenty years in the past building, tuning and driving fast BL Minis, with all sorts of combinations of tyres and suspension I think I've encountered probably every type of handling situation a front wheel drive car can throw at you, including sudden oversteer/understeer/roll-oversteer transitions and I'd definitely rather have the back end prone to letting go than the front, anytime. It's far easier to catch and recover.
Me too, Geoff. Also there's the incontrovertible fact that most of the braking bias in cars comes from the front wheels. I'd rather have my best tyres there and deal with a little tail waggle.
Me too. I always put new on the front. I was just pointing out the "official" advice.
walpurgis
08-03-2013, 19:25
Me too. I always put new on the front. I was just pointing out the "official" advice.
"official" advice is given out by 'experts' and they're not always right. In my book you can be an authority on a topic, but 'expert' implies total knowledge. Nobody knows everything about any subject. Having come from a professional/technical background, I've seen many an 'expert' come unstuck
kenworthy100
08-03-2013, 19:30
The debate is also complicated by new developments like Dynamic Stability Control, further a number of higher performance cars have different tyre sizes between front and rear axle,Lotus Elise S1 195/50 x15 front, 225/45 x16 rear as an example.
Yep, mine has different tyres front/rear: massive 265/30 R19s on the rear. I still chew through them in 9 months a set :(
"it's far easier to catch and recover". Really? Not for 99% of the driving population it isn't :rolleyes:
walpurgis
08-03-2013, 21:42
Why?
And who's 99% statistic are you quoting?
Most drivers never (safely) explore the limits of their car. Therefore they have no idea how to catch a car that is losing traction at one end or the other. You talk about understeer or oversteer to most drivers and they look blankly at you.
I'm with Geoff: oversteer is easier to catch and control. Up to a point.
Can't believe you are asking why.
walpurgis
08-03-2013, 21:52
Can't believe you are asking why.
I certainly am. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
[QUOTE=Covenant;420426]
Don't agree.
Assuming all tyres are in safe condition and new tyres have had their 'break in', it should make no difference.
In modern cars, oversteer and understeer to an extent that affects the car's balance are something the average driver will not encounter in normal driving. Most drivers would not even know what they were.
Hard driving is different, then these characteristics come into play, but that's not the way to impress the local constabulary.
You are joking!! If you say so......I'll go my way with my facts and you go your way with your opinion!!!
walpurgis
09-03-2013, 00:34
[QUOTE=walpurgis;420427]
You are joking!! If you say so......I'll go my way with my facts and you go your way with your opinion!!!
What facts? Can you advise please?
Just re read... Thought you were disagreeing with the fact that the budget tyres were awful.
My mistake....apologies :( :(
walpurgis
09-03-2013, 11:02
I agree, budget tyres can be dire to the point of being truly dangerous (as I've experienced), even though they allegedly meet supposed international standards. the situation is even worse with cheap motorcycle tyres, which can throw you into a ditch in a blink. Try recovering a front end skid on two wheels!
I checked my rears today and they're done. Up to the wear markers in the centre :(
Black Circles have an offer on Goodyear F1 Asymmetric 2, which are excellent but normally pricey tyres so I've ordered a pair for fitting on Saturday.
The previous Avon ZZ3s lasted 9 months. They're still great tyres but I'm hoping for a little more life from the Goodyear F1s.
freefallrob
21-03-2013, 09:10
Sounds like they have been over inflated if they are worn more in the centre.
I keep checking that, Rob, but they're spot on. I may just step it down a touch as I usually drive the car alone. The fronts wear evenly across the width.
freefallrob
21-03-2013, 09:56
Yeah your are probably right to drop them slightly, the recommended tyre pressure for my car are 31psi all round, however that's with 'half load' (and it's awful with just me in it) when i'm commuting it actually drives best with 30psi in the front and 29psi in the back.....not a lot different but makes a huge difference to the general ride and turn in to a corner.
BMW says 2.6 bar front and 2.8 rear, which translates into old money as 38 psi and 41 psi. Sound high to you?
freefallrob
21-03-2013, 11:43
Mines front wheel drive so the weight distribution is different, I guess yours is closer to 50/50 with the beemer rear wheel drive? I'd start by taking a couple of psi out at the back and see how it 'feels'.
Manufacturers' usually give two sets of recommended Tyre pressures, the higher one fully laden.
Go with the lower one and take a coupe of psi off.
Covenant
24-03-2013, 12:51
Here is the door I picked up yesterday from a scrapyard for £70. That's complete with glass, mirror, side strips, door/window mechanism and lining panel plus controls.
The guy in the scrappy said it's a two minute job to fit-just a couple of pins but I am a bit unsure about changing the lock barrel. Anyone done this before?
Go with the lower one and take a coupe of psi off.
I'm running on 2.6 bar all-round and it feels grippy and well balanced. I shall leave it this way and keep an eye during the next wet conditions.
Mark Grant
25-03-2013, 11:26
Here is the door I picked up yesterday from a scrapyard for £70. That's complete with glass, mirror, side strips, door/window mechanism and lining panel plus controls.
The guy in the scrappy said it's a two minute job to fit-just a couple of pins but I am a bit unsure about changing the lock barrel. Anyone done this before?
Remove the trim panel and some of the plastic film that keeps the trim panel dry.
Should then be easy to see how to remove the barrel. ( usually a screw and bracket or springy clip thing)
The trim panel plastic clips break very easily so best to google for a guide or video rather than using brute force.
Although as you have two doors you should have enough clips from both to refit the trim panel :)
If the plastic film is torn hold it all back together with some really wide 50 mm PVC tape such as this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PVC-BLACK-INSULATION-TAPE-50mm-x-33metres-/171001686216?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Suppl ies_ET&hash=item27d07ea8c8
Covenant
25-03-2013, 20:19
Cheers Mark,
Got the door fitted today. It was a relatively easy job (two of us) but decided to leave the lock barrel to another day-it's not urgent as the remote works.
I can dismantle the old lock in the comfort of my garage (when it warms up a bit).
archiesdad
25-03-2013, 22:01
New tyres should be fitted to the rear of all cars assuming that they use the same size all round
Kleber agree as do many other makers if you want to check further.
http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/index.jsp?codeRubrique=8032005184616
My clios suffered from "lift off oversteer" could this have been the cause of the accident? along with mismatched rear tyres.
Covenant
26-03-2013, 09:05
Here is a photo after fitting the new door. Got to say I was well chuffed doing this, it wasn't too difficult. Yes the dent to the sill is still to be sorted out-not sure if he is that bothered about it. The new tyres have been fitted on the rear.
A serious talk with the boy racer is now on the cards....:doh:
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