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julesd68
08-03-2013, 00:00
Does God exist? That's the topic for today. And I dedicate it to my late father Anthony, theologian as he was, as I think he would find it amusing from his place in the clouds …

On the basis of tonight's performance at St Paul's Cathedral, I would say there's a distinct possibility.

We were celebrating the 40th anniversary of The Tallis Scholars with a peerless programme of music.

Here is the "set-list" -

Thomas Tallis - Loquebantur variis linguis

Thomas Tallis - Miserere

Arvo Pärt - Nunc Dimittis

Gabriel Jackson - Ave Dei patris filia (world premiere)

William Byrd – Tribue Domine

Interval

Gregorio Allegri - Miserere

Eric Whitacre - New Work (world premiere)

Robin Walker - I have thee by the hand, O Man (London premiere)

Thomas Tallis - Spem in alium

The chance to hear the greatest liturgical music, in a historic cathedral setting, sang by arguably the greatest exponents of the art, was a chance I could not pass up. As a young chorister at Windsor Castle I got the chance to sing Tallis, Byrd and Allegri on a fairly regular basis. So of course I was looking forward to hearing some of the Renaissance's "Greatest Hits". But if I'm honest, I was a little nervous about the inclusion of four contemporary works - I don't know or listen to any such music. I should not have feared and instead placed more trust in the hands of the eminent director, Peter Phillips. Each one was captivating in its own way, with special praise due to the Arvo Part, which makes me really want to seek out more of his work.

On to the main business of the night. Pop quiz - what are the two greatest liturgical choral works in the history of the world, ever? The answer is of course, "Miserere" and "Spem in Alium".

"Miserere" was written under the auspices of Pope Urban VIII to be performed in the Sistine Chapel. Such was the heavenly beauty of the music, that performing it elsewhere and even writing the music down, was punishable by excommunication! It is written for two choirs. You have one in the foreground with five voices, and there is another choir of four voices that is separated by some distance from the main choir and acts almost like an echo. We couldn't even see where this choir was tonight, which made the distant voices all the more special and ethereal.

"Spem in Alium" is remarkable in that it is a 40 part motet - 8 choirs of 5 voices each. It is Tallis's masterwork and extremely complex. Just imagine the intricacies of the exchanges and the floating harmonies of all these voices!

Be very sure of one thing - the technical mastery required to sing these works. The perfect pitching, purity of tone and breath control is simply staggering. Can you imagine these divine voices cascading round the Cathedral and rising up unto heaven itself? The effect of the decaying voices is compelling - I estimated the echo to be between 5-7 seconds. But to sing it as it deserves to be sung, requires more than just talent - it requires an empathy of the Renaissance era and the inherent spirituality of the music.

I cannot begin to put into words the power of this music or to describe it in any way to do it justice. You just have to listen to it. Suffice to say, that its aim, like all liturgical works, was to not just to exalt the Lord, but to also bring you closer to him - to raise the soul to new celestial heights. Now I'm not what I would call a Christian, but my soul was truly moved tonight. So does God exist? The jury's still out, but it is very difficult to think that such exquisite music could come from man alone.

Thing Fish
08-03-2013, 00:12
Gregorio Allegri - Miserere is an extreamly beautiful piece of music indeed and it's thanks to a young 14 year old Mozart that it escaped the confines of the sistine chapel.

In answer to your question - does god exist my answer is - For some he needs to, but for me he doesn't...:)

Tim
08-03-2013, 01:13
I sit firmly in Steven Wienberg's camp, Google him if you don't know who he is ;)


Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. - Seneca (ca. 4 BC –AD 65)

John
08-03-2013, 05:15
Some beautiful music Julian
I do love music that can touch us someplace deep. I tend to use some world music and acoustic music to experience this.
I myself would describe myself as religious but I do have a deep spiritual side and for me this plays a important part of my life. But see this as a very personal experience.

lurcher
08-03-2013, 08:03
So does God exist

Tricky subject, but I have to ask, which god are you asking about?

julesd68
08-03-2013, 09:25
Well I think in this case it can be any God you like ...

What I was getting at was the ability of beautiful music, liturgical or otherwise, to lift you to a "higher place", whatever that may be for you.

Listening to the "Miserere", it makes you wonder how much of it is pespiration, how much is inspiration, and where that inspiration comes from - perhaps it does come from some external "God-like" life-giving force?

Tim
08-03-2013, 10:58
I do love music that can touch us someplace deep.
+1

Yomanze
08-03-2013, 11:12
I think this popular Friedrich Nietzsche quote is pertinent to this thread: "Without music, life would be a mistake. I would only believe in a God who knew how to dance."

shane
08-03-2013, 12:48
If you choose to believe in a God and he turns out not to exist when you shuffle off your mortal coil, it doesn't really matter, you're dead anyway. If you choose not to believe and it turns out that He does, you could be in a whole lot of trouble.

I forget who's philosophy this was (Oscar Wilde, maybe?) but it always seemed like a fairly sensible one. Even so, I find it hard to convince myself either way. We'll see in the end, I suppose.

.mus
08-03-2013, 13:19
I forget who's philosophy this was (Oscar Wilde, maybe?) but it always seemed like a fairly sensible one. Even so, I find it hard to convince myself either way. We'll see in the end, I suppose.

Tis 'Pascal's Wager', so Pascal I guess. It's notable in that, rather than attempting to provide a direct proof for God's existence - as other theologically minded philosophers have done - it offers purely pragmatic grounds for believing in God. But, as you effectively demonstrate, a pragmatic reason for holding belief is not obviously going to be the kind of reason that could sway one's belief either way.

Rare Bird
08-03-2013, 13:20
If you choose to believe in a God and he turns out not to exist when you shuffle off your mortal coil, it doesn't really matter, your dead anyway. If you choose not to believe and it turns out that He does, you could be in a whole lot of trouble.



Um.. i believe in one God & it's the almighty Prog, never ever will i be converted :)

julesd68
08-03-2013, 15:50
If Yes are playing at the great concert in the sky I'm going the other way!!

Andrei
09-03-2013, 06:08
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful. - Seneca (ca. 4 BC –AD 65)

Bit fuzzy on my history but doesn't Henry VIII's experience prove him wrong?

MartinT
09-03-2013, 11:12
the ability of beautiful music, liturgical or otherwise, to lift you to a "higher place", whatever that may be for you.

Amen to that(!)

As to the existence of god, whose god? Read about the Borgias or the crusades and you will rapidly conclude that religion is just another way that 'politicians' can control the masses. The Church of England was created by a King who was a murderer. Wasn't it Frank Herbert who said that there is precious little difference between religion and politics?

losenotaminute
09-03-2013, 11:36
Amen to that(!)

As to the existence of god, whose god? Read about the Borgias or the crusades and you will rapidly conclude that religion is just another way that 'politicians' can control the masses. The Church of England was created by a King who was a murder. Wasn't it Frank Herbert who said that there is precious little difference between religion and politics?

+1
Religion is another way for certain power hungry individuals in society to exercise power over the weak and credulous. It is effective because it preys on our instinctive hopes and fears. It is entirely man-made, inconsistent, immoral and frankly ridiculous.

The Grand Wazoo
09-03-2013, 12:05
I have no time for organised religion either, but your last sentence is uncalled for, totally inappropriate and I'd ask you to delete it now please.
EDIT: I see you're offline now, so I'm afraid I'm going to do it myself.

losenotaminute
09-03-2013, 12:18
I have no time for organised religion either, but your last sentence is uncalled for, totally inappropriate and I'd ask you to delete it now please.
EDIT: I see you're offline now, so I'm afraid I'm going to do it myself.

Fair enough. I apologise, it was as you say inappropriate.

The Grand Wazoo
09-03-2013, 12:19
Thank you.

Haselsh1
09-03-2013, 12:21
For me personally, God is whatever you perceive it to be. If you feel the need to believe then believe but for me, I do not need a God in my life and therefore I fail to believe.

brian2957
09-03-2013, 12:24
There are some very sweeping statements being made here . Neither I nor any of my family practice any religion , but I believe that there are some very spiritual people within all religions who have a genuine faith in their own personal God . I've always envied people like that because they seem to be at peace with themselves and those around them . They seem to have a deep understanding of how the world works and are able to accept adversity in a calm and understanding manner .
You can be religious without being spiritual and you can be spiritual without being religious. I believe that you can have a God in your life without going anywhere near a ' man made ' place of worship.

Audio Al
09-03-2013, 12:43
I can ask the EX wife for you

She recons she knows everything :lol:

Rare Bird
09-03-2013, 12:52
I won't argue about Religion on an open forum but i know what i think about it & the people who are controlled by it. However everyone's entitled to believe in what they want in the same way that none believers are.

pegleg4
31-03-2013, 12:38
Hi Haselsh1
I have just read your post on the above and your feelings. I agree with most of what was said. I feel that if a God exists a part of him exists within us all and he has given us the ability to ( reign over all the creatures of this earth,) which is an enormous responsibility and we are failing
miserably. This gift has a warning of the down side to our arrogance, and that is. Should we fail it wont be around to to pick up the peices. Finito gone as have all previous species. Do we want to become just another failed species? This could mean that he she or it has said, (there is your intelligence use it to make your own savation, I wont be around).

Regards
John Lancaster.

JazzBones
31-03-2013, 13:20
This is a question that has been asked many a time, especially by people facing death or disaster. I abide by a truism:

" The burden of proof rests with the believer, not the non-believer"

Lord Bertrand Russell.

synsei
31-03-2013, 13:29
I believe in a guiding force which controls the universe (it is way more complicated than that), I do not believe in religion however, it is a man made thing so therefore it is flawed, in extremis in some cases.

SquireC
31-03-2013, 13:46
If Yes are playing at the great concert in the sky I'm going the other way!!

I'll take your place - Thank you.

:)

Mr Kipling
31-03-2013, 14:06
If He/She doesn't - who puts the music in the lp groove?

Answer me that!

julesd68
31-03-2013, 14:30
That's exactly what I was getting at - the nature of "divine inspiration" ..

julesd68
31-03-2013, 14:32
I'll take your place - Thank you.

:)

I'd prefer Iron Maiden doing "Number of the Beast"! :lol: