View Full Version : Would a valve amp save my ears?
spikeyfaz
26-02-2013, 19:34
Whenever I turn up the wick a tad on my system I find the treble gets quite harsh and even painful to listen to sometimes. I noticed this a bit with my previous speakers Monitor Audio 352s but the Tannoy Devons really do reveal this annoying trait even more so.
It seems to be present from CD and vinyl sources so I'm kind of thinking it's the amp that's the problem. I've dabbled with valves before but for various reasons (mainly I couldn't afford them!) I never really went down this route. I now however think it's time to reconsider the valve option. Are the Tannoys better suited to valve amps? I don't need lots of volume as my room is not big. Just want a more organic sound, if that makes sense. Would really appreciate some advise before I go deaf!! :eek:
Your ears will thank you, mine did :D
I would try and borrow a valve amp first.
Digital offers uncompressed high frequencies if the mastering allows it and this can upset ill matched amps and speakers far more than the (often) gentler tones of "analogue," whatever that's supposed to mean :rolleyes:
The louder you go, the more distorted a too-low power amp will get, particularly on peaks. Some 5 star award winners of old used to oscillate even before clipping all in the interests of "excitement" and WTF used to love such products and may still do for all I know... The Mini-T amp is a classic case of being utterly charming when it's not pushed or played at rather low levels, yet it can sound tinny-toned and gutless if pushed into a speaker it dislikes.
Some speakers have ill-matched crossover networks. I'm NOT going to damn all passive speakers as AVI's Ashley does (he's infamous for calling a spade a shovel) but there are many speakers out there that just don't integrate their drivers properly, or set the tweeters too high to make them sound "detailed and exciting."
If you get the fundamentals wrong, *just* getting a valve amp is going to be little more than a sticking plaster. The best modern valve amps don't have the soft and cozy sonics that characterised many valve amps of old. Even the revered Radford amps back in the day sounded anything but "soft..."
PLEASE get a listen to some different gear using CD or streaming, whatever your digital preference is. Not knowing the gear you have makes it difficult for me to say any more, and I hope you take the above in good part. Even valve amps can get nasty of you push them too hard or use speakers they don't like...
julesd68
26-02-2013, 20:40
Sounds like some kind of component mismatch or lack of "synergy", whatever you want to call it ...
I was never a fan of the R352's back in the day. I should think the Tannoys are much more revealing of source.
Would be good to demo a more sophisticated solid-state amp in your system before moving on to toobs. It's the mid-range that great valve amps excel in as far as I know.
Consider your room too, you could be exciting reflections, possibly from side walls (1st reflection).
Audio Al
26-02-2013, 20:48
Whenever I turn up the wick a tad on my system I find the treble gets quite harsh and even painful to listen to sometimes. I noticed this a bit with my previous speakers Monitor Audio 352s but the Tannoy Devons really do reveal this annoying trait even more so.
It seems to be present from CD and vinyl sources so I'm kind of thinking it's the amp that's the problem. I've dabbled with valves before but for various reasons (mainly I couldn't afford them!) I never really went down this route. I now however think it's time to reconsider the valve option. Are the Tannoys better suited to valve amps? I don't need lots of volume as my room is not big. Just want a more organic sound, if that makes sense. Would really appreciate some advise before I go deaf!! :eek:
What components do you have in your system
CD
TT
Amp
Cables ?
The Black Adder
26-02-2013, 20:56
Consider your room too, you could be exciting reflections,ossibly from side walls (1st reflection).
+1 Reflections are a very good candidate for ear bleeding treble.
Try some attenuation on the amp, a gain mismatch may be what's going on.
Speaker placement is another good trick to try.
Interconnects may be a good thing to try. Use high quality copper and not silver. Mark Grant are superb.
Speaker cables too, again use high quality copper and not silver plated. I found silver plated stuff does put a sharp edge on the sound.
A valve amp may dampen over the high frequencies a little but to be honest I'd start with the source and work back to the speakers.
purite audio
26-02-2013, 21:32
If your speakers are toe'd in towards you try firing them straight down the room,there is far less treble energy off axis.
Keith.
spikeyfaz
26-02-2013, 22:51
Thanks for all your replies. Much appreciated. My system is listed somewhere in my profile but I'll list it here:
Technics SL1200 Turntable/ Denon DL110 cartridge
Sony CDP 770 cd player
NAD 3130 amp
Speaker cables make not known
Speakers Tannoy Devons HPD315.
I seem to get the problem with CD and vinyl. I have tried backing off the tone controls on the speakers as well as the amp but I think it's only masking the problem, not curing it (if that makes sense!).
I do find the overall sound a bit grainy at times and it was for this reason I considered an amplifier change.
I've just had a play with the vinyl end of things. I swapped in an old Shure Encore 75 cartridge in place of the DL110. Sound got a bit muddier but the harsh top end is still there. Prior to this I was running a Kenwood KD-990 turntable and the same harshness was there. I know it's not an exact science but I don't think it's the source that causing the problems.
I must say that i hadn't considered room reflections but will now look at getting another rug down to see if that helps (it's a wood laminate floor).
Maybe too many Motorhead and Hawkwind concerts back in the 1980's has knackered my poor old ears! I'm fast approaching 50 years of age so perhaps it's time for a 'pipe and slippers' sound! He, he! :)
Dingdong
26-02-2013, 23:24
Retire the NAD amp, and find something, solid state or valve, that drives your speakers better.
How close are your side walls and ceiling? A rug of the floor could help. A photo of the room may help.
walpurgis
26-02-2013, 23:43
I've owned Tannoy Devons (amongst many others) and they are definitely not happy with most solid state amps.
Their sensitivity is high enough for ten or fifteen watts of valve power to be sufficient in the average room.
Try experimenting with speaker cables and interconnects, as they will influence the sound of your Tannoys a lot. For instance, keep well away from QED Silver Anniversary speaker cable, it sounds dire with Tannoys, very bright and gritty.
yeah... experiment a bit with some inexpensive secondhand amps on ebay whilst keeping the NAD. Make sure you research prices well so you can sell them on again without loss.
Maybe an 80's Cambridge Audio integrated or Oblisk or Onix or Myst or IncaTech or ....
Turn the treble energy down a notch and do the same for the treble rolloff. The 9kHz spikes and general untidiness in these tweeters are well catalogued and made worse in the smaller driver I found - not just my memories of these, since there's plenty out there... The crossovers may need attention as well.
As for the NAD, it's out of place here and probably shagged too after thirty five years. Our Goraman bought one for light duties a while ago and all the supply caps were either bulging or leaking...
The Eatons would love something like the Icon Audio Stereo 20PP amp...
jandl100
27-02-2013, 08:27
Mike,
If you don't do 'loud' and/or are in a smallish room, then Dave DSJR is spot on that the little Amptastic Mini-T t-amp can be very fine indeed.
I've used one with Tannoys to excellent effect at the Scalford Show a few years back, and that was in quite a large room!
I've one spare sitting in a drawer - if you want to borrow it to try out PM me your name / address and I'll pop it in the post. :)
-- it's tiny, so return cost is only 2 or 3 £ or so.
The Black Adder
27-02-2013, 09:36
Good idea of Jerry's there... I agree regarding the NAD amp... They are over bright in my opinion. Is the sound 'ringing' at all or just too sharp/bright?
Good idea of Jerry's there... I agree regarding the NAD amp... They are over bright in my opinion. Is the sound 'ringing' at all or just too sharp/bright?
Good question, also does piano hurt your ears or even just warble somewhat?
spikeyfaz
27-02-2013, 12:36
I've owned Tannoy Devons (amongst many others) and they are definitely not happy with most solid state amps.
Their sensitivity is high enough for ten or fifteen watts of valve power to be sufficient in the average room.
Try experimenting with speaker cables and interconnects, as they will influence the sound of your Tannoys a lot. For instance, keep well away from QED Silver Anniversary speaker cable, it sounds dire with Tannoys, very bright and gritty.
Given the era that my Tannoys hail from, I did wonder if the Solid State amp was causing some sort of mis-match. I will dig out some other cables I have and see if that makes any difference.
Thanks for your advice. :)
spikeyfaz
27-02-2013, 12:45
Turn the treble energy down a notch and do the same for the treble rolloff. The 9kHz spikes and general untidiness in these tweeters are well catalogued and made worse in the smaller driver I found - not just my memories of these, since there's plenty out there... The crossovers may need attention as well.
As for the NAD, it's out of place here and probably shagged too after thirty five years. Our Goraman bought one for light duties a while ago and all the supply caps were either bulging or leaking...
The Eatons would love something like the Icon Audio Stereo 20PP amp...
I didn't know the Tannoys had a rep for some treble issues. Just goes to show! I did try playing with the treble controls a bit but wasn't convinced it was really achieving the results I'm after. Will have another play tonight. It's frustrating 'cos the rest of the sound is probably the best I've ever heard my records and CDs. The guy I got the NAD off (it was a freebie) reckoned it had been re-capped but I've never opened it up so who knows. I definitely think the NAD is not right in my set-up but need more experimenting before it's condemned.
Thanks for your help. :)
spikeyfaz
27-02-2013, 12:49
Mike,
If you don't do 'loud' and/or are in a smallish room, then Dave DSJR is spot on that the little Amptastic Mini-T t-amp can be very fine indeed.
I've used one with Tannoys to excellent effect at the Scalford Show a few years back, and that was in quite a large room!
I've one spare sitting in a drawer - if you want to borrow it to try out PM me your name / address and I'll pop it in the post. :)
-- it's tiny, so return cost is only 2 or 3 £ or so.
Hey, that's a really generous offer! :) I may well take you up on the offer the amp loan. It's reminded me that I used to own a Sonic Impact T-amp some years ago. It might just have survived several house moves and be sleeping in my loft! If it's there I'll let you know how I get on with it. Not sure how it would compare with the Amptastic.
Cheers! :)
jandl100
27-02-2013, 16:33
The Amptastic uses the TA2020 chip rather than the TA2024, and is much more transparent, detailed and 'alive'.
Go on, give it a go! :) -- I can post it tomoz and you'll have it Saturday, probably.
I totally love my Amptastic Mini-T and Celestion 5 speakers, superb little amp.
spikeyfaz
27-02-2013, 17:22
The Amptastic uses the TA2020 chip rather than the TA2024, and is much more transparent, detailed and 'alive'.
Go on, give it a go! :) -- I can post it tomoz and you'll have it Saturday, probably.
Finished work early today so managed to have a look in the loft. Found the Sonic Impact. Hurrah! Set it up and...... Awful!!!. Very detailed and delicate but that shrillness is still there. Hmm. Need to have a think about this. Maybe it is the speakers, which would be a shame as they're part of the family now. I have got a spare set of crossovers, so maybe I could upgrade them. At least if I mess them up I can go back to the old ones.
Would the Amptastic tame that annoying top end? :scratch: I'll give it some thought this evening.
jandl100
27-02-2013, 17:47
No, the old Sonic Impact is a bit dull compared to the Amptastic. :( -- you need to look elsewhere for a solution to your system's problem, sadly.
walpurgis
27-02-2013, 19:56
I must admit, much as I love Tannoys, my Devons and my HPD315 Cheviots sounded coarse at the top end. Bliss was restored when I replaced them with another pair of Eatons.
Hi Mike,
Just noticed this thread and as we live only a few miles apart you are welcome to pop over and borrow a valve amp ( i have a selection) or a mini t if you like to see if your Tannoys can be tamed :)
walpurgis
28-02-2013, 00:34
A&R a 60.
An A60 would probably tame the top, but I had one and found the A60 tamed everything else too. It was not the most revealing amp I've used by any means, quite honestly.
An A60 would probably tame the top, but I had one and found the A60 tamed everything else too. It was not the most revealing amp I've used by any means, quite honestly.
You must have had a duffer, Geoff.
The A60 is over thirty years old now and made with stock components. If there's some duffers out there by now I'm not in the tiniest bit surprised.
NAD's integrateds of fairly recent times used to be quite smooth and with no harshness, so maybe their current offerings may be worth a look. The C320BEE or whatever it was called would have more than enough power here and should be cheap to buy second hand - no phono stage though if memory serves..
Audio Al
28-02-2013, 17:59
Hi
I used a Marantz with my Tannoy speakers and found it to be fine with a TT and CD source
I upgraded to a Yamaha Pre amp and power amp combo and now have the Marantz for sale see this thread below
It has some very good reviews in the Hi Fi world
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22119
Cheers
I just moved from a NAD C275BEE (150w per, great amp...) to an Air Tight ATM-1 (36w per), 15 year old amp.
I have Proac Response D Two speakers, 88.5db sensitivity. With the Air Tight at 36w, I have actually more usable power output than I did with the NAD. Says something about Class A and "quality" of power.
Despite having a great setup with the NAD, I have reduced by a large degree treble brightness, but none of the highs are missing. I have some sensitivity in my left ear to high frequencies (they are increased), and the move to the tube amp helped this problem enormously.
Yes, there are so many variables, reflections, synergy, etc., but for me the move worked quite well in terms of providing a more musical result and took the edge right off the brightness issue I suffer from.
walpurgis
28-02-2013, 20:42
You must have had a duffer, Geoff.
No, it was fine, just dull, I've tried several. I found the same with the Audiolab 8000 and NAD 2030.
As I've said before these amps found favour with the Hi-Fi mags because they were a 'safe' recommendation, but they are not an exciting listen.
Paul is right about "Class A" by the way. It's generally better (but not always).
Strange how we like different things.
Haven't heard one for a while,but thought the a 60 a cracking amp and never liked the 8000a or nad 3020 or pioneer A400.
Anyway best to try a few different amps,but wouldn't be surprised to find it's the speakers your not getting on with.
No, it was fine, just dull, I've tried several. I found the same with the Audiolab 8000 and NAD 2030.
As I've said before these amps found favour with the Hi-Fi mags because they were a 'safe' recommendation, but they are not an exciting listen.
Paul is right about "Class A" by the way. It's generally better (but not always).
I don't buy the idea that a bog standard transistor amp like the A60, NAD or Audiolab or anything conventionally designed and specced can be 'exciting' or 'dull'. They are just amplifiers. As you need a source and speakers to 'hear' the amp I would direct any criticism at them instead.
walpurgis
01-03-2013, 11:21
I don't buy the idea that a bog standard transistor amp like the A60, NAD or Audiolab or anything conventionally designed and specced can be 'exciting' or 'dull'. They are just amplifiers. As you need a source and speakers to 'hear' the amp I would direct any criticism at them instead.
No, I don't agree.
The source (and speakers & cables) are of course important, but amplifiers have a huge influence on the sound. If not we'd all be using the cheapest amp that has enough power for our needs.
I know when I connect an old budget integrated amp into my system it won't sound anywhere near as good as what I normally use.
. If not we'd all be using the cheapest amp that has enough power for our needs.
.
Exactly what I do :)
johnwhit
01-03-2013, 13:16
I don't buy the idea that a bog standard transistor amp like the A60, NAD or Audiolab or anything conventionally designed and specced can be 'exciting' or 'dull'. They are just amplifiers. As you need a source and speakers to 'hear' the amp I would direct any criticism at them instead.
+1
Theoretically a good amp should just amplify the signal given to it, that's what I usually look for, along with solid build and enough power to drive the most difficult speakers with consummate ease. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world, but it does irritate me somewhat when people describe amplifiers like source components:rolleyes:
John
I can't agree with either of you. I did not buy the Valhalla just because it looks pretty, there is a vast gulf in SQ between it and the T-Amp, so much so that I skinted myself this month to buy it. It had to be down to the amp as that was the only component change. Incidentally the T-Amp and Valhalla deliver almost identical power ;)
Yes - it doesn't irritate me but it does raise an eyebrow. It doesn't help that a lot of amplifiers are under-powered for what they need to do, giving very different results depending on the loudspeakers that they are partnered with, which people then confuse with being the 'sound' of the amp. Try some different (easier to drive) speakers and lo and behold the amp 'sounds' different.
I can't agree with you either of you. I did not buy the Valhalla just because it looks pretty, there is a vast gulf in SQ between it and the T-Amp, so much so that I skinted myself this month to buy it. It had to be down to the amp as that was the only component change ;)
Yes but I have always had my doubts about that t-amp/B&W combo of yours. ;)
Plus we are talking (well I am) about conventional tranny amps, valve power amps can be quite quirky and will sometimes have a lot more distortion - which, bizzarly, can actually improve how they sound.
Okay, so how come a 20wpc T-Amp was such an improvement over a 110wpc Hafler? If your argument were correct then the Hafler should have trounced the Mini-T and yet it didn't?:scratch:
Okay, so how come a 20wpc T-Amp was such an improvement over a 110wpc Hafler? If your argument were correct then the Hafler should have trounced the Mini-T and yet it didn't?:scratch:
It's a good point and I can only hazard guesses, not being familiar with low power chip amps:
1) The Hafler was out of spec - had it been recapped etc recently?
2) Mis-match between it and the pre-amp
3) Something technically 'odd' about the mini-T that meant it just somehow gelled with the B&Ws
Plus if you generally play your music at low volumes in a small room the additional power that the Hafler could bring to bear would be mostly wasted. In a large room playing loud you might well have preferred the Hafler.
Indeed, the Hafler was completely overhauled early last year. I did occasionally push the envelope with the Hafler (always being mindful of the fragility of the Coles units in the DM2's) and I can't say it sounded any better, just louder... :lol:
Going back to the Valhalla, how is it that I am now hearing more lovely little subtleties in the music and a better defined soundstage? Again, nothing else has changed in the system.
julesd68
01-03-2013, 16:22
In my experience, with a good "revealing" high end system, every component in the system is as important as the other - if there is any weak link in the chain, the quality of the system will show it up very quickly.
The Hafler wasn't the most neutral amp out there, erring on the big-n-beefy as I remember (a long tome since I heard one though). The Mini-T is a lively little thing which takes off when pushed too hard. I believe the Mini-T is more like 8 Watts per channel into 8 ohms - 10W if pushed to massive distortion. No speaker is a straight 8 ohm load, the coil resistance changing with frequency and add a crossover with eq built in as on the DM2's and the little T amps are going to have a rather narrow window in which to operate IMO. When I borrowed and liked Alex's Mini-T (into LS5/9's), the volume was very low, not much more than background level.
No EQ onboard my DM2's Dave, they are not DM2a's. The Mini-T did not clip in my system until it hit pretty wild levels so I guess the DM2's are an easy load for it. Average output of the Mini-T is around 10-12wpc although some companies optimistically quote 20wpc for the 2020 chip amp.
This is all academic though because Martin is suggesting that amps don't have character therefore the Hafler should sound exactly like a Naim NAP140 and a NAP140 should sound exactly like a NAD C350 and a NAD C350 should sound exactly like MartinT's Chord. Martin, sell your Chord mate and buy a cheapo NAD, you'll be quids in ;)
walpurgis
01-03-2013, 19:17
In my experience, with a good "revealing" high end system, every component in the system is as important as the other - if there is any weak link in the chain, the quality of the system will show it up very quickly.
Julian is of course right!
I'm surprised there are AOS members who seem to imply that they can't hear the difference between cheap amplifiers and something good. The sound from a decent Class A valve amp for instance, can not be compared to something like the Cambrdge A60 or any NAD integrated I've heard. The differences are vast!
High spec amplifiers are not just for show. Good amps are dear, but worth the money. If you can't hear what they are capable of in your system, then that raises questions about the other parts of the system.
johnwhit
01-03-2013, 19:48
This is all academic though because Martin is suggesting that amps don't have character therefore the Hafler should sound exactly like a Naim NAP140 and a NAP140 should sound exactly like a NAD C350 and a NAD C350 should sound exactly like MartinT's Chord. Martin, sell your Chord mate and buy a cheapo NAD, you'll be quids in ;)
I could be wrong but I don't think that's what Martin was saying, yes amps do have character, but the perfect amplifier would take the signal, amplify it and not add any character or remove anything from the original...........unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world:(
John
Ah kk, me bad, I misunderstood. No, we definitely do not live in a perfect world, but it's getting damned close just now. I have Janis Ian Live ~ Living Without A Net playing and the atmosphere from the hall is all pervasive, a top quality recording this :trust:
johnwhit
01-03-2013, 20:28
I have Janis Ian Live ~ Living Without A Net playing and the atmosphere from the hall is all pervasive, a top quality recording this :trust:
:) Enjoy, I'm restricted to headphones tonight, the other half's glued to the box:rolleyes: Ah well there's always tomorrow:cool:
John
This is all academic though because Martin is suggesting that amps don't have character therefore the Hafler should sound exactly like a Naim NAP140 and a NAP140 should sound exactly like a NAD C350 and a NAD C350 should sound exactly like MartinT's Chord. Martin, sell your Chord mate and buy a cheapo NAD, you'll be quids in ;)
Not at all what I am suggesting. If NAD made an amp that was as well specced as the Chord (possibly they do, I don't know) then I would expect it to sound effectively no different. Why should it? There may be the tiniest hint of a different 'flavour' or 'charcacter' to the sound that might be bourne out in long term listening and apparant on some material not all. But we are talkign about trying to shove a fag paper between angels dancing on the head of a pin. Martin recently posted about swapping his Chord amp for a cheap seni pro effort and was surprised how close it came to the Chord - also a Parasound amp that whilst ecpensive was way cheaper than the Chord and came closer still - in fact I think Jerry said he actually preferred the Para to the Chord on some material.
Not just my view either - Consider the Harbeth Challenge: tell the difference between 2 amps through some Harbeth studio monitors and you win the monitors (£10K or something like). Now in theory I just need to get me a 'Lively and musical' Brio R and a 'cold, clinical, grey' Audiolab 8000A and tool on down to Harbeth ace the blind tests and get some free high end speakers. No-one passed the test. No-one even attempted it. Attempts to pass similar tests in the past have failed. And I don't buy the idea that the blind test environment stops people from telling the difference becasue if the differences were as large as some seem to think then you would be able to tell within seconds between 'cold clinical grey' and 'lively and musical'.
Dingdong
02-03-2013, 10:04
I could be wrong but I don't think that's what Martin was saying, yes amps do have character, but the perfect amplifier would take the signal, amplify it and not add any character or remove anything from the original...........unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world:(
John
You forgot to add the bit about being able to drive the speakers properly.
jandl100
02-03-2013, 10:07
Oh dear - I seem to have come on to the wrong forum by mistake. :doh:
So - all well specced amps into an acceptable speaker load sound the same. Ah right. Silly me, I hadn't realised.
:lol:
I'll leave you to it, guys. Carry on. :cool:
So - all well specced amps into an acceptable speaker load sound the same. Ah right. Silly me, I hadn't realised.
:lol:
:
Okay so lets say they don't sound the same - what are the reasons for them not sounding the same (or very similar)? That's not a loaded qustion btw.
Dingdong
02-03-2013, 10:25
Oh dear - I seem to have come on to the wrong forum by mistake. :doh:
So - all well specced amps into an acceptable speaker load sound the same. Ah right. Silly me, I hadn't realised.
:lol:
I'll leave you to it, guys. Carry on. :cool:
Maybe my post was misunderstood.
Amps do sound different. Down to a number of things. Ability to drive a reactive load, quality of components and a bunch of other stuff.
Amps can measure very similar though.
jandl100
02-03-2013, 10:26
Okay so lets say they don't sound the same - what are the reasons for them not sounding the same (or very similar)? That's not a loaded qustion btw.
Hi Martin
I have no idea. I'm no techie.
I just listen.
And I've listened to a LOT of amps. It's what I do, it's one of my hobbies. :)
They all sound different - they really do.
Okay so lets say they don't sound the same - what are the reasons for them not sounding the same (or very similar)? That's not a loaded qustion btw.
Loads of reasons:
Lets start with how amps are measured, specifically for THD. It's measured usually at a 1KHz test tone and well within RMS rated power delivery which tells us nothing of how an amp deals with transient speaker loads for one. Also down to:
1. Differences in circuit topology and components used;
2. Class of operation (yes, this does matter as it affects things like distortion depending on feedback used)
3. Phase accuracy (Class B and Class A/B not being as phase accurate as Class A in most cases)
4. Amount of negative feedback;
5. power output stage: e.g: is it transformer coupled or capacitor coupled?
6. Transient (or "dynamic") power rating:- many SS amps are designed to supply perhaps 2 or 3 time RMS wattage into a short burst, 20mSecs used to be the average target before clipping would occur;
7. power supply and design (eg is it a choked supply, what size is the transformer etc etc);
8. Bandwidth of output transformers (if used) makes a massive difference to sound quality;
9. Inductance in output stage (usually applied to damp down load oscillations from capacitative loads).
10. S/N ratio: this is down to design, screening, topology, quality of components used (eg metal film resistors are "quieter" than carbon based resistors), gain (and how that is achieved) and many other things.
So to say that all amps which are specified similarly (ie THD at a KHz) isn't accurate as it negates any thought as to how an amp deals with varying loudspeaker loads (ability to drive speakers is based on a number of things including available current and output impedance), it's topology and behaviour under transient loads. It tells nothing of absolute phase accuracy, how "smooth" the power supply and output stages are, how well damoped the oputput stages are and how they react to highly reactive loads.
When selecting an amp, picking one on wattage or THD alone will never be an indication of absolute suitability for your system.
Perhaps next time someone says "all amps sound the same", you can think on these things and just nod with the response "if you say so" ;)
jandl100
02-03-2013, 10:44
Aha.
There you go. :)
Unlike me, Paul is a techie!
So to say that all amps which are specified similarly (ie THD at a KHz) isn't accurate as it negates any thought as to how an amp deals with varying loudspeaker loads (ability to drive speakers is based on a number of things including available current and output impedance), it's topology and behaviour under transient loads.
Similarly specced would mean all relevant specs not just THD measurement.
Differently specced amps can sound different through different speaker loads or even the same speaker load? Yes. Don't disagree. Will these differences be very marginal? IME yes, unless you have a big amp/speaker mismatch.
As an example - I bought a big Rotel integrated for my Celestions - brand new, a 1060 something or other, flagship amp. It had shut in treble and muddy bass, it wasn't very dynamic. From this I could conclude that the Rotel 1060 is a poor amp, grey sounding undynamic, wouldn't recommend it. I might also extraploate that all Rotel amps are like this. Then I swapped the speakers to Ruark Templar. Fantastic sound, great bass, open top, just a perfect match. Now the Rotel is 'powerful, open, dynamic, with sweet mid and top'. It is a good amp, all Rotels are good amps.
That hopefully illustrates where I am coming from on the sound of amplifiers and how some describe them.
johnwhit
02-03-2013, 11:01
You forgot to add the bit about being able to drive the speakers properly.
I thought that was obvious, the basic qualities for a good amplifier are crisp, clean articulate sound with strong control and the ability to drive the most difficult speakers with sublime indifference.
These attributes should not change as the volume is increased or decreased.
Good design and build quality are also essential if you're to remain content with your purchase.
Quality amplifiers may be more revealing and transparent, but adding character such as "warmth" to the sound is not a good design philosophy, you should be trying to amplify the signal as accurately as possible, character should be an attribute of the source component.
John
Quality amplifiers may be more revealing and transparent, but adding character such as "warmth" to the sound is not a good design philosophy, you should be trying to amplify the signal as accurately as possible, character should be an attribute of the source component.
John
Agreed except I think it best to add the character at the speakers. You might as well since they are going to be the most coloured component in the system.
walpurgis
02-03-2013, 11:22
Consider the Harbeth Challenge: tell the difference between 2 amps through some Harbeth studio monitors and you win the monitors.
That principle should apply through ANY normal dynamic speakers. You'd expect exotics like big ribbon dipoles and electrostatics etc., to behave rather differently, but a regular pair of good moving coil loudspeakers will allow the different sound characteristics between amplifiers to be heard.
This whole thing is hardly worth the argument, as we all know that amps sound different!
Ideally good amplifiers should all sound similar, but we haven't got there so far (mind you, I haven't heard a Devaliet yet).
johnwhit
02-03-2013, 11:26
Agreed except I think it best to add the character at the speakers. You might as well since they are going to be the most coloured component in the system.
Speakers, that's a whole different can of worms and probably the hardest part to get right in the Hi-Fi chain. If I were to go looking for a new CDP I would probably take a good pair of headphones to audition the ones on the short list and tackle the speakers later.
John
walpurgis
02-03-2013, 11:31
Speakers, that's a whole different can of worms and probably the hardest part to get right in the Hi-Fi chain. If I were to go looking for a new CDP I would probably take a good pair of headphones to audition the ones on the short list and tackle the speakers later.
John
Headphones all sound different too!
Similarly specced would mean all relevant specs not just THD measurement.
Differently specced amps can sound different through different speaker loads or even the same speaker load? Yes. Don't disagree. Will these differences be very marginal? IME yes, unless you have a big amp/speaker mismatch.
As an example - I bought a big Rotel integrated for my Celestions - brand new, a 1060 something or other, flagship amp. It had shut in treble and muddy bass, it wasn't very dynamic. From this I could conclude that the Rotel 1060 is a poor amp, grey sounding undynamic, wouldn't recommend it. I might also extraploate that all Rotel amps are like this. Then I swapped the speakers to Ruark Templar. Fantastic sound, great bass, open top, just a perfect match. Now the Rotel is 'powerful, open, dynamic, with sweet mid and top'. It is a good amp, all Rotels are good amps.
That hopefully illustrates where I am coming from on the sound of amplifiers and how some describe them.
True but how many different manufacturers amplifiers have IDENTICAL specifications regarding S/N ratio, THD, channel separation, current into transient loads, duration of transient power etc etc. I'll tell you: None do, unless of course the amplifiers are identical and just sold under different names.
It is of course possible that you could get two amplifiers which measure exactly the same in all respects, but highly unlikely, so my point I guess is that the comparison is pretty meaningless. It is probably more meaningful to say that different amps sound different.
Firebottle
02-03-2013, 12:08
Loads of reasons:
Lets start with how amps are measured, specifically for THD. It's measured usually at a 1KHz test tone and well within RMS rated power delivery which tells us nothing of how an amp deals with transient speaker loads for one. Also down to:
1. Differences in circuit topology and components used;
2. Class of operation (yes, this does matter as it affects things like distortion depending on feedback used)
3. Phase accuracy (Class B and Class A/B not being as phase accurate as Class A in most cases)
4. Amount of negative feedback;
5. power output stage: e.g: is it transformer coupled or capacitor coupled?
6. Transient (or "dynamic") power rating:- many SS amps are designed to supply perhaps 2 or 3 time RMS wattage into a short burst, 20mSecs used to be the average target before clipping would occur;
7. power supply and design (eg is it a choked supply, what size is the transformer etc etc);
8. Bandwidth of output transformers (if used) makes a massive difference to sound quality;
9. Inductance in output stage (usually applied to damp down load oscillations from capacitative loads).
10. S/N ratio: this is down to design, screening, topology, quality of components used (eg metal film resistors are "quieter" than carbon based resistors), gain (and how that is achieved) and many other things.
So to say that all amps which are specified similarly (ie THD at a KHz) isn't accurate as it negates any thought as to how an amp deals with varying loudspeaker loads (ability to drive speakers is based on a number of things including available current and output impedance), it's topology and behaviour under transient loads. It tells nothing of absolute phase accuracy, how "smooth" the power supply and output stages are, how well damoped the oputput stages are and how they react to highly reactive loads.
When selecting an amp, picking one on wattage or THD alone will never be an indication of absolute suitability for your system.
Perhaps next time someone says "all amps sound the same", you can think on these things and just nod with the response "if you say so" ;)
Good answer Paul.
If I may add to this, all amps contain capacitors, in the PSU if not in the signal 'chain'. The PSU components can colour the performance as much as the components in the signal path, and no capacitor is 'perfect'.
No amps are going to perform the same when they use 'imperfect' components.
:cool: Alan
My current amps, are NAD c372 integrated, NAD c275bee power amp, and now the Air Tight ATM-1.
C372 - great amp, 150w per, powerful sound, neutral, but a bit dry and grainy midrange. Highs clear but not sweet. Sounds the way a Ford pickup drives....
C275bee - better amp, significant step up from the 372, refined, more definition, more air, sweet highs and mids are solid and bass full with good detail.
ATM-1 - whole different world, all sources spring to attention and the system can astound. Dead silent black backgrounds, air, bass control, the sweetest cleanest high's, and liquid midrange. Music to die for, never thought my system could jump to this level. Never going back to solid state after a lifetime of it. This puppy can rock too.
The NAD's are Mustangs, the ATM-1 a new Jaguar XJ. Only 36w, but much more usable power than either of the NAD's. The power really shocked me. My concern was it could not drive the Proacs, instead it has their ball's in a death grip... :)
With the ATM-1, I can cleanly go louder than my ears will allow, and no loss of control. I can live with this for a lifetime.
What do the watts mean in this case? The NAD's are not underpowered, but there is some other spec that makes the ATM-1 such a better match for the Proac Response D Two's.
Firebottle
03-03-2013, 08:01
:stalks::stalks:
Stonking size output trannies there Paul
http://digilander.libero.it/agostino.manzato/audio/reportage/air_tight/air_tight_light.jpg
Very purposeful looking amp :)
:cool: Alan
You have described exactly what I experienced moving from SS to valves Paul. My Valhalla only delivers 15w a side into my DM2's but OMG, they are 15 of the most humongous great globs of musical wattage I have ever heard, and yet astounding levels of delicacy and finesse are apparent also... ;)
brian2957
03-03-2013, 09:43
I've been a solid state fan for over 30 years . Really loved my Rega BrioR / Rega DAC combination and thought I would have them for a very long time. I never considered valve amps until recently when local dealer Scott Nangle gave me a loan of a dared I30. At first I didn't know what to make of it and it took me a couple of weeks to come to terms with the changes it made . This amp sounds so different to SS but in a good way . I don't tend to play my music very loud but I do have favourite albums with tracks which I would expect to turn the volume down at certain 'high points ' . This doesn't happen with the valve amp , it's totally relaxed at all times . I can listen to my system for hours now without any fatigue and sometimes I need to be dragged from my music by SWMBO :lol: .
I've been a solid state fan for over 30 years . Really loved my Rega BrioR / Rega DAC combination and thought I would have them for a very long time. I never considered valve amps until recently when local dealer Scott Nangle gave me a loan of a dared I30. At first I didn't know what to make of it and it took me a couple of weeks to come to terms with the changes it made . This amp sounds so different to SS but in a good way . I don't tend to play my music very loud but I do have favourite albums with tracks which I would expect to turn the volume down at certain 'high points ' . This doesn't happen with the valve amp , it's totally relaxed at all times . I can listen to my system for hours now without any fatigue and sometimes I need to be dragged from my music by SWMBO :lol: .
That is so true Brian... :lol:
I don't sleep well due to a chronic back injury and other health issues, so in the past when I have awoken I'd don a pair of 'phones (can't do that now :(), break out the lappy and watch a bit of OnDemand TV. These days, and especially since the Rega arrived, I wake up, turn the system on and lie here listening to music at a low level without any loss of dynamism or detail at all. This is something I have never been able to do with any SS amp I have owned, for below a certain level they would all run away and hide... :lol:
You can get the same result with SS. I can play to ridiculous spl without any distortion related fatigue setting in, low levels are good too. It's not all about valves vs solid state in this regard. Also don't forget your valve amp will clip softly when driven too hard, your SS amps would go straight into nasty distortion once past their limit.
brian2957
03-03-2013, 10:40
You can get the same result with SS. I can play to ridiculous spl without any distortion related fatigue setting in, low levels are good too. It's not all about valves vs solid state in this regard. Also don't forget your valve amp will clip softly when driven too hard, your SS amps would go straight into nasty distortion once past their limit.
Can't ague with that Martin as I've never owned a high end amplifier which may or may not disprove my findings . Also I've very rarely ( or never ) driven an amp loud enough to start clipping . I can only relate my experience to the amps which I've owned mate . Take your point though .
It was intersting that at last years Scalford the most beguiling sounds were being made by valve -powered systems with vinyl front end. Note I say beguiling. For sheer devastating clean spl performance the (solid state) active ATC monitors, using a laptop into a DAC blew everything else away. Some people want that 'studio' sound, others prefer the more relaxing, beguiling presentation. I suppose with heaps cash or some DIY talent you can get both but for the rest of us well, you choose your poison etc... ;)
brian2957
03-03-2013, 10:51
That is so true Brian... :lol:
I don't sleep well due to a chronic back injury and other health issues, so in the past when I have awoken I'd don a pair of 'phones (can't do that now :(), break out the lappy and watch a bit of OnDemand TV. These days, and especially since the Rega arrived, I wake up, turn the system on and lie here listening to music at a low level without any loss of dynamism or detail at all. This is something I have never been able to do with any SS amp I have owned, for below a certain level they would all run away and hide... :lol:
I'm working nightshift at the moment Dave and have noticed your posts appearing in the very early hours. I'm glad that the DAC is providing you with as much pleasure as it gave me. I believe that you can get some kind of adaptor for headdhones . Sometinng like this may work http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1m-3-5mm-Jack-Female-To-2-x-RCA-Male-Phono-Adapter-Splitter-Cable-Lead-/250944375437?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item3a6d734a8d
May be worth looking into mate. Never been much of a headphone user myself I'm afraid.
brian2957
03-03-2013, 10:59
Unfortunately I've never had loads of money or any talent in the area of DIY but I did think the Rega combo was one of the most beguiling ( in terms of drawing me into the music ) sounds I had encountered until I heard the valve amp . I believe that some people want music to excite them and others want music to relax them ( Ella and Frank if you know what I mean ) . I prescribe to the latter . I'm a bit of a ' pipe and slippers ' man so the valve amp suits me down to the ground. ;) Love to go to Scalford BTW. Maybe next year eh :)
walpurgis
03-03-2013, 11:35
You can get the same result with SS. I can play to ridiculous spl without any distortion related fatigue setting in, low levels are good too. It's not all about valves vs solid state in this regard. Also don't forget your valve amp will clip softly when driven too hard, your SS amps would go straight into nasty distortion once past their limit.
This raises a point. I don't know if anybody is experiencing clipping with their system, but if you are and on a regular basis, you have the wrong amp. Get something bigger!
I'm working nightshift at the moment Dave and have noticed your posts appearing in the very early hours. I'm glad that the DAC is providing you with as much pleasure as it gave me. I believe that you can get some kind of adaptor for headdhones . Sometinng like this may work http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1m-3-5mm-Jack-Female-To-2-x-RCA-Male-Phono-Adapter-Splitter-Cable-Lead-/250944375437?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Audio_Ca bles_Adapters&hash=item3a6d734a8d
May be worth looking into mate. Never been much of a headphone user myself I'm afraid.
Eventually I will grab myself a headphone amp but not yet, I am all spent out and I still need to acquire a tonearm cable for the Jelco, there goes another 50 quid. This is starting to get really scary now :eyebrows:
This raises a point. I don't know if anybody is experiencing clipping with their system, but if you are and on a regular basis, you have the wrong amp. Get something bigger!
Indeed! A lot of people don't seem to realise that their amp is clipping on peaks and instead ascribe the problem to something else - speakers usually. It wasn't until I moved to my present house where I have to set the speakers up well into free space due to the room layout - and listen from 20 feet away, that I really noticed this as an issue and began to read up on the whole subject. How often do you see letters in the mags from people saying 'my system sounds great at low volume but when I turn it up a bit it all falls apart when the music gets 'busy''.
It is a pretty common problem and in terms of SQ has far more effect than mucking about with cables and such.
johnwhit
03-03-2013, 12:48
....your SS amps would go straight into nasty distortion once past their limit.
Not always the case, some older Rotel amps soft clip, RA-971 & RA-971 MkII for example.
John
I believe early NAD's had a soft clip facility too...
Very true, they did but what was the point? 'The amp is not very powerful and will clip so lets put a band-aid on it' - how about just sticking in a stiffer power supply? - because that would cost more, of course.
Mr Kipling
03-03-2013, 13:18
Well the 3020 was only a budget amp! And its power supply was better than the average budget amp. At the end of the day everything is a set of design compromises governed by cost - well, in the majority of equipment, that is. The super-expensive is a law unto itself.
It's sort of like saying all cars are the same, after all they all have four wheels, an engine, a steering wheel and gears of some sort so they must be the same, yes? I am of course referring to the engine performance here of course. They may all have engines but some are more capable then others clearly :D :D
It's sort of like saying all cars are the same, after all they all have four wheels, an engine, a steering wheel and gears of some sort so they must be the same, yes? I am of course referring to the engine performance here of course. They may all have engines but some are more capable then others clearly :D :D
And it is quite easy to define their capabilities and see what causes them. In the world of amplifiers though people claim huge differences were none are quantifiable, or expected. if we are using cars as an analogy what is the difference between a Golf, a Scirroco and the Beetle? - none, they are all VW Golfs, only the body shell is different.
Examples of amps of similar spec from yesteryear that some people think are really good and some think are really bad -
Cyrus 1
Audiolab 8000A
NAD 3020
Why such a huge divergence in people's appreciaton of these amps? Is it:
1) People have different ears (I don't think so - we are the same species and our ears and brains all work the same)
2) The amps all sound radically different - (if so why would this be?)
3) The parternering equipment used, particularly the speakers, and the volume level required at the time.
I reckon it is all down to 3)
Long time ago now I had an original Denon PMA250 - part of a very special sounding but budget system. It developed the worst fault possible - cutting out on 1 channel intermittently. Sold it as spares and bought the latest PMA250 - it was not a patch on the Mk1 - not even close. How could this be? Many years later I found out the phono stage in the later model was completely different to the old one - and what was 95% of my listening through? yep, the phono. The amplification stages were probably identical.
johnwhit
03-03-2013, 14:07
I believe early NAD's had a soft clip facility too...
Not a facility on the Rotel, it's just the nature of the beast, rated at 60 WPC into 8 Ohm, reality 100 WPC and 130 WPC under dynamic load, distortion increasing gracefully over the final 10W
John
The Grand Wazoo
03-03-2013, 14:34
People have different ears (I don't think so - we are the same species and our ears and brains all work the same)
Don't you think this is a bit simplistic Martin?
Mr Kipling
03-03-2013, 14:41
And it is quite easy to define their capabilities and see what causes them. In the world of amplifiers though people claim huge differences were none are quantifiable, or expected. if we are using cars as an analogy what is the difference between a Golf, a Scirroco and the Beetle? - none, they are all VW Golfs, only the body shell is different.
Examples of amps of similar spec from yesteryear that some people think are really good and some think are really bad -
Cyrus 1
Audiolab 8000A
NAD 3020
Why such a huge divergence in people's appreciaton of these amps? Is it:
1) People have different ears (I don't think so - we are the same species and our ears and brains all work the same)
2) The amps all sound radically different - (if so why would this be?)
3) The parternering equipment used, particularly the speakers, and the volume level required at the time.
I reckon it is all down to 3)
Long time ago now I had an original Denon PMA250 - part of a very special sounding but budget system. It developed the worst fault possible - cutting out on 1 channel intermittently. Sold it as spares and bought the latest PMA250 - it was not a patch on the Mk1 - not even close. How could this be? Many years later I found out the phono stage in the later model was completely different to the old one - and what was 95% of my listening through? yep, the phono. The amplification stages were probably identical.
You can sit 10 people down to listen to speakers or whatever and there's a good chance not all of them are going to like some aspect of what they hear. What about cultural differences to sound appreciation? The East tend to favour hard percussive sounds and in the West melodic warm tones are favoured. Hence the Sepecial Edition versions of some Eastern gear for Western ears.
The Audiolab was 50w per channel, if I'm not mistaken. The Nad was 20w. Can't remember what the Cyrus 1 was.
Don't you think this is a bit simplistic Martin?
Yes, but I'm not writing a paper to be peer-reviewed. I think we can agree that the differences between peoples' physical hearing capabilities and cognotive process are too slight to be worth consideration. Or can we not?
You can sit 10 people down to listen to speakers or whatever and there's a good chance not all of them are going to like some aspect of what they hear. What about cultural differences to sound appreciation? The East tend to favour hard percussive sounds and in the West melodic warm tones are favoured. Hence the Sepecial Edition versions of some Eastern gear for Western ears.
The Audiolab was 50w per channel, if I'm not mistaken. The Nad was 20w. Can't remember what the Cyrus 1 was.
Loudspeakers are a whole different ballgame. Thye are very coloured compared to amplifiers. The differing power outputs you mention are part of the point I am trying to make. There is a tendancy to assume these things don't matter much and that one amp is 'better' than another when the difference is actually one of varying ability to drive speaker load and nothing to do with some secret ingredient in the design that imparts 'musicality' or PRaT.
So, if what you are saying is true then I completely wasted my money upgrading the Hafler with better caps, and yet I know that is bollox because there was a clear difference in the sound of the Hafler when I got it back, some of it good, some of it not so good. Also, I get really frustrated when people tar all valve amps with the 'pipe & slippers' moniker. I can tell you now the Valhalla is no Leslie Phillips, yeeeesssss.... Oh it can be laid back when the music dictates, but take now for instance, I am listening to the track War on the Avatar OST album and it is sounding dynamic and visceral, IN YER FACE, but not at all harsh. Sounds bloody fabulous it does. I never got that with the T-Amp, the Audiolab 8000c/Hafler combo nor the NAD C350... :cool:
The Grand Wazoo
03-03-2013, 15:19
I think we can agree that the differences between peoples' physical hearing capabilities and cognotive process are too slight to be worth consideration. Or can we not?
No, I don't think we can at all.
Everybody has a different hearing acuity. Everybody has different shaped and orientated ears. I can hear things my wife can't hear when we are sat side by side on the sofa - not just in music but noises around the house, but she can hear a higher note than me.
Put a CD on and move your ear lobes around and it will affect the sound you hear. Just because our ears and brains use the same methods and mechanisms to work together does not, by any means mean that we all hear the same thing.
Mr Kipling
03-03-2013, 15:29
I did say speakers or WHATEVER. We might all share the same hearing proccess but it doesn't then follow we all hear the same thing.
As the Audiolab had more than twice the output power of the Nad you can hardly say they are of similar spec. At £500 it also cost a great deal more than the Nad at £70. The two sound quite different. Why? Design. Component use. Layout.
No, I don't think we can at all.
Everybody has a different hearing acuity. Everybody has different shaped and orientated ears. I can hear things my wife can't hear when we are sat side by side on the sofa - not just in music but noises around the house, but she can hear a higher note than me.
Put a CD on and move your ear lobes around and it will affect the sound you hear. Just because our ears and brains use the same methods and mechanisms to work together does not, by any means mean that we all hear the same thing.
Differently shaped ears? Come on now that's not going to make a jot of difference to listenting to a system and deciding whether it is making a good or a bad sound. I went round Salford last year with a pal and we did not differ once in our opinions of each system despite hearing about forty different systems. Plus our own systems could not be more different and musical taste is quite dissimilar too.
As the Audiolab had more than twice the output power of the Nad you can hardly say they are of similar spec. At £500 it also cost a great deal more than the Nad at £70. The two sound quite different. Why? Design. Component use. Layout.
You see this is really the crux of where we differ. I would say those two amps sound almost identical (providing neither is being pushed beyond its limit). I might, if pushed, say that thay have a slightly different 'character' to them but this is so marginal that it is, to me anyway, totally irrelevant. The Audiolab was more expensive than the NAD only becasue it had more power and was made in England and not Taiwan. And possibly a higher dealer margin too.
So, if what you are saying is true then I completely wasted my money upgrading the Hafler with better caps, and yet I know that is bollox because there was a clear difference in the sound of the Hafler when I got it back, some of it good, some of it not so good. Also, I get really frustrated when people tar all valve amps with the 'pipe & slippers' moniker. I can tell you now the Valhalla is no Leslie Phillips, yeeeesssss.... :
Replacing old caps with new can make a big difference, I have done it myself with speaker crossovers, you are jumping to a bit of a conclusion there Dave. And for the record I agree valves are not necessarly 'pipe and slippers', I never said they were. I first heard a valve ampkified system back in 1992 and it rocked my world. The only reason I don't use a valve power amp is that powerful ones are very expensive and I need a powerful amp for my room/speakers/musical taste.
walpurgis
03-03-2013, 15:54
Not always the case, some older Rotel amps soft clip, RA-971 & RA-971 MkII for example.
John
Not a lot of use really. How about a 'not clip' amp instead? even if you run into "soft clipping" you've run out of power, so a bigger amp is still needed!
To be honest with you Martin I really don't know where your coming from :scratch: Anyway, I have a date with Janis Ian, toodloo :wave:
Mr Kipling
03-03-2013, 16:06
Well Martin, I don't know how you can say the Audiolab and Nad sound similar. They didn't with my Castle Richmonds at minimal output. The Nad had a warm presentation with a "fruity" bass. The Audiolab was pretty non-descript and boring I found. Everything, whatever the source, tended to sound the same, which is why I parted with it. And part of the reason it cost more was that it had a mc stage, used better components and was better built.
johnwhit
03-03-2013, 16:14
Not a lot of use really. How about a 'not clip' amp instead? even if you run into "soft clipping" you've run out of power, so a bigger amp is still needed!
Agreed, but it depends on how much power you need, 130 WPC not enough for you? I rarely get the Rotel past 9 o'clock unless I attenuate the CDP output, at 12 o'clock I'd be listening outside:lol:
John
Well Martin, I don't know how you can say the Audiolab and Nad sound similar. They didn't with my Castle Richmonds at minimal output. The Nad had a warm presentation with a "fruity" bass. The Audiolab was pretty non-descript and boring I found. Everything, whatever the source, tended to sound the same, which is why I parted with it. And part of the reason it cost more was that it had a mc stage, used better components and was better built.
I forgot about the MC stage - I'll give you that one ;)
Any way like Dave I have an appointment. Someone dropped me round 'Skyfall' last night and I have spent the afternoon re-building the home theatre system (as well as arguing with you lot :) ) so I can watch it properly. Time for some Bond and Guinness related activity...
walpurgis
03-03-2013, 23:58
Agreed, but it depends on how much power you need, 130 WPC not enough for you? I rarely get the Rotel past 9 o'clock unless I attenuate the CDP output, at 12 o'clock I'd be listening outside:lol:
John
Well I'm using 35 watts of Class A into large Tannoys and never get anywhere near to needing full output. Generally around 9 o'clock on volume control for some pretty loud listening, depending on which pre-amp. Speaks for itself really.
Same for me , 36w of class A from my tubes, and at 9 o clock setting, it is as loud as I want to listen. At 10 clock, the room is rocking big time and if you were blindfolded and 20 feet away you would think a 5 foot set of towers with dual 10 inch bass drivers were playing. This from my Proac monitors. My NAD just could not come close to this even though 150 w.
Nothing else has changed, just swapped in the Air Tight and presto!
spikeyfaz
04-03-2013, 18:19
Been a bit busy last few days assembling Expedit shelving so only small amount of time to listen to music. I have however had some progress. The Tannoys were sitting on some flimsy stands to get them off the floor but these have now gone and the Tannoys are currently sitting on the floor. And this has tidied up the sound a lot! :)
The sound is still a bit bright but it's nothing like as harsh, thank goodness. I still think there is some merit in ditching the NAD as there is that gritty sound that I've never had when listening to valves.
My main priority now is to get the Tannoys onto some solid stands but they really only need to be off the floor by a couple of inches. Maybe some solid blocks of timber??
I do appreciate all the replies and debates that have ensued. It all helps! :thumbsup:
My main priority now is to get the Tannoys onto some solid stands but they really only need to be off the floor by a couple of inches. Maybe some solid blocks of timber??
Solid concrete blocks are cheap and do the trick just not WAF,the offer is still there for a valve amp to try :scratch:
brian2957
04-03-2013, 18:50
What a great offer . You'll never look back :eyebrows:
spikeyfaz
04-03-2013, 20:16
Solid concrete blocks are cheap and do the trick just not WAF,the offer is still there for a valve amp to try :scratch:
Jon
I saw your post but to be honest it's been a bit chaotic here. Assembling furniture and then having family birthday bash! :cool: Only now have I been able to actually chill out. :)
Wowee!! That's a brilliant offer. You sure you're ok with lending your kit out??
Do you want to PM me and we'll try and sort something out?
Cheers
Mike
jandl100
05-03-2013, 09:59
Well Martin, I don't know how you can say the Audiolab and Nad sound similar.
Yep, all amps sound different to me, too.
But if Martin doesn't hear it, he doesn't hear it.
... wrong shaped earlobes maybe. ;)
Time to move on, I think! :cool:
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