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View Full Version : Bushmaster & Touch (EDO) | Playback of flacs higher than 24/96 possible via Toslink?



marflao
25-02-2013, 14:59
Hi all,

I have some questions to all of you who own as well a BM Bushmaster and a Logitech Touch with the EDO app installed.

I lent a cheapo Toslink cable from a friend and connected it to the Bushmaster and the Touch. Edo is installed in the latest version (0.8) and file settings in LMS on my NAS are flac as native.

All things are fine until Iīll play some flac files higher than 24/96. Then the songs starts playing, stops, starts back at the begining...all with scratchy noise.

So my questions are:

i) is playback of higher files than 24/96 via toslink not possible (although I saw some commments in the Logitech Squeezebox forum that it should be possible if the DAC supports it)!?!

ii) or is the limitation the "cheapo" toslink cable I used?

iii) or do I need to apply certain other settings in the LMS (or somewhere else) Iīm currentlly not aware of??

Are some of you guys able to play 24/176 and 24/192 flacs via Touch to the Bushmaster - via Toslink? Havenīt checked that via S/PDIF yet but I assume (or at least hope) that this will work.

I would really appreciate your findings here.

To be honest I donīt really think I will hear a difference for instance between 24/96 and 24/192 but Iīd like to give it a try.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Markus

StanleyB
25-02-2013, 16:05
When the music stops right in the middle of playing have a look at the top of the Touch display to see if the Touch is busy buffering data. When you have 176.4 and 192KHz files playing they can overwhelm the Touch's buffer size, which will cause it to stop sending data to the Bushmaster. The poorer your network connection speed is, the worse the situation. The Bushmaster won't solve your data buffering problem with the Touch.

I have my Touch connected to a dedicated wireless router and to a gigabyte wired network connection from a NDS-385 in order to reduce the likelihood of the Touch stopping sending data to the Bushmaster whilst it tries to grab more data from the server. I have one 24/192KHz WAV files that is 300MB in size, and playing that wireless is a challenge. Works fine on the wired network though.

marflao
25-02-2013, 19:54
Hi Stan,

Thanks for your quick reply.
So is your Touch connected via Toslink?

I checked it again with the toslink and the 24/192 files were (this time) continiously playing but with this scratching sound/noise. With a 24/176 file I didn't hear anything at all (no music/no scratching noise).

A couple minutes ago I connected a S/PDIF cable and 24/192 files are playing fine - so the scratching noise is gone. Everything sounds great. But I'm still not able to play 24/176 flacs. No clue why this is the case.

Hmm.... anybody has a solution for this issue and "solved" it?

@Stan: I don't mean at all to be negative vs your "baby". :-) I like it and I'm keeping it even if the 24/176 flacs couldn't be played. I'm just curious if others were facing the same issues AND solved them succesfully.

Btw...the connections:
Router <-> Switch <-> NAS: all Cat 6
Switch <->Touch: Cat 7 (no wifi, no Gigabit)

Thanks and Cheers,
Markus

StanleyB
25-02-2013, 19:56
I have no problem with playing 176 KHz files. I have the Touch connected via every possible input connection option that it offers.

marflao
25-02-2013, 20:11
Hmm...and where is your music stored?
Maybe itīs a "limitation" of my NAS?!?! Or settings in the server settings of LMS??

Cheers,
Markus

StanleyB
25-02-2013, 20:29
I use my laptop and the music is stored on a SSD drive. I am not a touch expert however.

marflao
25-02-2013, 20:44
Ok, thanks for that, Stan.

Maybe somebody else can share his/her findings?

Cheers,
Markus

Stratmangler
26-02-2013, 08:14
Get rid of the Cat7 lead - it's going to act like an aerial and pull in RF.
A standard Cat6 lead will do ;)

UV101
26-02-2013, 08:17
Why will cat7 act as an antenna? It's multiple shielded twisted pair??

marflao
26-02-2013, 09:14
Hmm....I thought the better the cable the better the connection would be.

@ Ian, Chris:
Recap from my side: you guys can play all high res flacs (24/176 and 24/192) via Toslink and Spdif???

Canetoad
26-02-2013, 10:39
I have the same problem with 24/176.4 files. They play but the sound is disjointed. I have the EDO app on my Touch going through an MF V-Link 192 using USB, which registers each file correctly via its LED indicators, including 24/176.4. 16/44.1, 24/88.2 and 24/192 play fine. 24/176.4 does not. When I connect using the spdif out on the Touch directly into the BM I get the same problem.

I have played the same 24/176.4 file using Foobar on my PC and it plays fine. Maybe it's an issue with the Touch? Can anybody confirm that the Touch plays 24/176.4 files OK with EDO app installed? :scratch:

marflao
27-02-2013, 09:09
Hmm...I found a fellow BM owner who was (is still ??) facing the same issue:

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?94512-Announce-Enhanced-Digital-Output-app-USB-Dac-and-192k-Digital-Ouput&p=729858&viewfull=1#post729858

Cheers,
Markus

Peter Galbavy
27-02-2013, 13:31
I have two Touch-es and running wireless and high bitrate FLAC can cause problems. One of them has always been hardwired, no issues. The other one did buffer now and again, even on 16/44.1 so I went to hardwired Ethernet and no issues at all. I have now gone back to wireless as a result of moving stuff around but the problems have not returned (I suspect the new location is better for WiFi).

marflao
27-02-2013, 13:56
I have two Touch-es and running wireless and high bitrate FLAC can cause problems. One of them has always been hardwired, no issues. The other one did buffer now and again, even on 16/44.1 so I went to hardwired Ethernet and no issues at all. I have now gone back to wireless as a result of moving stuff around but the problems have not returned (I suspect the new location is better for WiFi).

Hi Peter,

connected via Toslink or SPDIF?
Either 24/176 as well as 24/192 works fine for you ? Is that what are you saying?

Cheers,
Markus

Stratmangler
27-02-2013, 14:49
Hmm....I thought the better the cable the better the connection would be.



What's better about Cat7 cable?
Don't tell me - it's "1" better than Cat6 :lol:

I install data networks for a living (I know what I'm talking about), and you will be getting no benefit from using Cat7 cable.
Your router will not be contacting the shield connection of the cable, and neither will the Squeezebox Touch.
Your server will not have a shield connection to Cat7 cable either.

The Cat7 cable is more likely to pick up and introduce RF into the network where plain old Cat5e won't.

Stratmangler
27-02-2013, 14:55
Can anybody confirm that the Touch plays 24/176.4 files OK with EDO app installed? :scratch:

I have EDO installed on my Touch, and it plays 24/176.4 files with no issues whatsoever, whether from USB memory stick, SD card or from my NAS server.
My NAS server merely outputs files on request, as there's insufficient processing grunt to resample anything on the fly.

My DAC is quite happy dealing with all of the sample rates too.
My DAC is from M2Tech - it's an EVO DAC http://www.m2tech.biz/evo_dac.html

marflao
27-02-2013, 15:08
I have EDO installed on my Touch, and it plays 24/176.4 files with no issues whatsoever, whether from USB memory stick, SD card or from my NAS server.
My NAS server merely outputs files on request, as there's insufficient processing grunt to resample anything on the fly.

My DAC is quite happy dealing with all of the sample rates too.
My DAC is from M2Tech - it's an EVO DAC http://www.m2tech.biz/evo_dac.html

Dropped you a PM, Chris.

NRG
27-02-2013, 15:51
You have two issues running hires over Toslink, the first is the maximum symbol rate the rx and tx chip set can sustain and the second is the max bandwidth of the Toslink cable. Reality is 24/96 is about as hi as you can go, the cable probably being the first limiting factor.

marflao
27-02-2013, 16:04
You have two issues running hires over Toslink, the first is the maximum symbol rate the rx and tx chip set can sustain and the second is the max bandwidth of the Toslink cable. Reality is 24/96 is about as hi as you can go, the cable probably being the first limiting factor.

Hmmm...but if I understood Stan correctly (see post #4) it should be possible.
I'm puzzled.....

NRG
27-02-2013, 22:32
This Stereophile review suggests LMS down samples 176Khz to 96.....

http://www.stereophile.com/content/logitech-squeezebox-touch-network-music-player-measurements

Stratmangler
27-02-2013, 23:17
This Stereophile review suggests LMS down samples 176Khz to 96.....

http://www.stereophile.com/content/logitech-squeezebox-touch-network-music-player-measurements

It does downsample, unless EDO is installed on the Touch.
If EDO is installed then the player talks to the server and stops any transcoding from taking place.

Just to clarify things, resampling can only occur when the Touch is being controlled from LMS running on a machine capable of handling the transcoding.

Canetoad
28-02-2013, 10:10
The output from my Touch is fine. The V-Link 192 lights the 176 light with these files. The BM starts hunting for a signal lock though. Just happens for 176.4. My Touch is hard wired and flac files are supplied by a Synology NAS running LMS and flac native. It won't transcode to PCM so the Touch is doing the processing.

Files were extracted from SACD and I can convert the DSD file to 88.2 or 176.4. I've just settled on 88.2 as that plays fine. It's just annoying that the BM won't play 176.4. Until I get another DAC that will process up to 192 and compare I can't say for sure the BM is the issue.

Stratmangler
28-02-2013, 10:41
Until I get another DAC that will process up to 192 and compare I can't say for sure the BM is the issue.

A quick scan on the 'net shows that many DACs don't support and decode 24/176.4

NRG
28-02-2013, 10:45
The output from my Touch is fine. The V-Link 192 lights the 176 light with these files....

Using Toslink?

marflao
28-02-2013, 10:54
If I understood Bernie correctly he uses the V-Link via USB connection between the Touch and the BM.

And he mentioned in post 15 that he also canīt play the 174 files via Spdif.

MartinT
28-02-2013, 11:00
Careful - 24/176 with overhead exceeds 4.3Mbit/s, which is higher than the original Toslink specification of 3.1Mbit/s. If your transport and/or cable are not well spec'd, you are simply pushing the Toslink too far. It was only supposed to support up to 24/96 originally.

You're better off using co-ax at such high speeds.

marflao
28-02-2013, 11:10
Careful - 24/176 with overhead exceeds 4.3Mbit/s, which is higher than the original Toslink specification of 3.1Mbit/s. If your transport and/or cable are not well spec'd, you are simply pushing the Toslink too far. It was only supposed to support up to 24/96 originally.

You're better off using co-ax at such high speeds.

Well....that was one of my initial thoughts (see post 1) if the toslink cable (or precisely Toslink per se) is the weak point. I saw some information from cable resellers that toslink will "serve" up to 24/96. Above that? Not possible? Donīt know for sure yet.

But on the other hand as weīve seen in this thread it should be possible to play the high res files.

Hmm...technical mystery....

NRG
28-02-2013, 11:13
....which was my point I made earlier. Unless the Tx and Rx modules are capable and the cable you wont be able to go above 24/96...

marflao
28-02-2013, 11:15
Just out of curiosity do you know a suitable Toslink cable which should be able to play flacs higher then 24/96?

StanleyB
28-02-2013, 11:18
I had a word with Wofson about this and their support guy said that 176.4 is not officially supported by their WM8804 chip in hardware mode, which is what I use.

I had the following additional info:

176.4KHZ OR 192K MODE ENABLE
The difference between a sample rate of 176.4kHz and 192kHz requires the system to be configured slightly differently. This requires that the S/PDIF Rx sample rates are known (176.4kHz or 192kHz). Both sampling frequencies also require that the register bit SPD_192K_EN is set to a 1. If the SPD_192K_EN register bit is not set to a 1, then TRANS_ERR errors will be generated and this will result in the UNLOCK status being continually set (indicating an UNLOCK status).
176.4KHZ OPERATION
To operate at fs=176.4 kHz, then the PLL_K and PLL_N settings should be set up as in mode 2/3/4. In this case the the PLL will lock onto the S/PDIF Rx data stream correctly if fs=176.4kHz. If however the sample rate is changed to fs=192kHz (and the PLL is not reconfigured) then the S/PDIF Rx interface will indicate UNLOCK and TRANS_ERR. The UNLOCK signal will continually toggle between a locked and unlocked state.


The lock and unlock state is the thing that some people have been experiencing with 176.4.

I use my owned code routine to force the receiver chip into locked mode in certain circumstances such as a weak or interference prone wireless link. So I suspect that my own code routine is somehow forcing 176.4 to play in certain signal conditions.

It's not the first time that I hacked or modified the way that a DAC chipset works. i.e. the TC-7510 hack to get a WM8716 to be used instead of a PCM1716 DAC chip.

Several people sent me a 176.4 set file in the past and they work fine for me. I have someone on AoS who has volunteered to set up his BM with the same configuration as me and see if he has any problems with 176.4 with the Touch.

But the TOSLINK lead can play a factor with the ability to lock on a high frequency sample rate. That's why I use a thick TOSLINK cable, which suffers far less high frequency losses compared to a thin one. This is due to the way light reduces in strength in proportion to the cable thickness and length.

Stratmangler
28-02-2013, 11:51
In response to the original post, the Touch will output 24/96 via the Toslink.

I've had a play with using the Toslink into my DAC, and 24/176.4 files cause the sample rate indicators to flash - there is no signal lock.
Curiously enough the music played glitch free.

With 24/192 files there is no signal lock indication whatsoever, and the audio output is a horrible distorted mess.

On returning to the SPDIF coaxial connection all files play perfectly.
The files that seemed to play glitch free over Toslink were shown to have a wealth of ambient information that was not being passed over the Toslink.
SPDIF is the only way to get stable lock at all sample rates.

NRG
28-02-2013, 11:57
Thanks Chris, so going above 24/96 can work but with loss of fidelity....makes sense now I think more about it ...exceeding the rated capability of the cable and Tx/Rx modules is not a brick wall but a gradual loss of signal integrity as the rate rises...I should know about this as I work with fibre optics nearly every day! :lol: In my work though is more of a brick wall effect... I blame the lack of alcohol.... :cool:

StanleyB
28-02-2013, 11:59
In response to the original post, the Touch will output 24/96 via the Toslink.

I've had a play with using the Toslink into my DAC, and 24/176.4 files cause the sample rate indicators to flash - there is no signal lock.
Curiously enough the music played glitch free.

With 24/192 files there is no signal lock indication whatsoever, and the audio output is a horrible distorted mess.

On returning to the SPDIF coaxial connection all files play perfectly.
The files that seemed to play glitch free over Toslink were shown to have a wealth of ambient information that was not being passed over the Toslink.
SPDIF is the only way to get stable lock at all sample rates.

Hi Chris, for reference purpose, was it a Bushmaster DAC or a completely different brand of DAC that you noticed the above symptoms?

Stratmangler
28-02-2013, 12:04
Hi Chris, for reference purpose, was it a Bushmaster DAC or a completely different brand of DAC that you noticed the above symptoms?

It's an M2Tech DAC.
If you want to send a Bushmaster for me to test then I'm willing to help out, so long as you pay the postage both ways.

StanleyB
28-02-2013, 12:25
It's an M2Tech DAC.
If you want to send a Bushmaster for me to test then I'm willing to help out, so long as you pay the postage both ways.
Thanks for the offer, but I have now received three PMs this morning from volunteers who were quick on the ball with the same offer. I am preparing parcels for dispatch to them right now.
Thanks to those guys by the way :).

Canetoad
28-02-2013, 14:59
Using Toslink?

Using USB/coax with V-Link or coax straight from Touch to BM without Neal. I don't bother with toslink for higher resolution files.

JKepler
21-05-2013, 09:27
Anyone has any updates on toslink playback for 24/192 flacs?

I recently got the Bushmaster DAC for my stereo rig together with the Beresford TC-3618 Toslink cable XQ over the weekend and discovered this technical glitch too. Upon seeing this thread, it seems to imply a fault with the toslink interface limitations and possibly the toslink cable. I have been doing some "testing" myself to check this theory out. Posting my findings below. Please pardon my amateur writing/testing methods.

On the testing, fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it :-P), I have an old FiiO D3 DAC whcih I am using for my PC setup and tested swapping out the Bushmaster with the D3. Besides the DAC, all other components remain the same (Touch EDO-> TC-3618 toslink cable XQ -> DAC -> Nait XS -> NACA5 -> n-Sats)

Then tried playing back the same album (Meet me in London - Antonio Forcione & Sabina Sciubba) in 24/192 flac. The result? Eureka! Smooth hi-res playback :-) I did not try playing back 24/176.4 flacs since I do not have access to any.

From the above test, I suppose I can rather safely conclude that 24/192 playback via toslink is possible using Touch(EDO) and a good Toslink cable (TC-3618 in this case). Now considering that I am also able to playback 24/192 flac via coax on the BM, it is not an issue with the BM DAC either. So I can only surmise that the main difference and potential culprit may be the toslink/SPDIF interface on the BM.

(Note. I have checked the SPDIF interface chip used the FiiO D3 and it uses the same WM8804 as the BM).

Mr.Ian
15-06-2013, 17:38
did you double check that the Touch was actually receiving a 192/24 signal? When I first tried this I thought it worked but when I looked at the Touch signal data (via the "+" button in the top right hand corner of the Touch screen) it wasn't showing as a 192/24 signal it was being down converted in my PC to 96K

MartinT
15-06-2013, 19:13
You need to turn off all downsampling in LMS.

24/176 does not work with the Bushmaster.