Next upgrade. Nice electricity

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

OK, it's time to get serious about my mains. I don't know how bad or good it is (recent experience suggests it's not brilliant) but I've decided that having an expensive hifi with poor electricity is like having a finely tuned racehorse and feeding it McDonalds. Yes, I realise McDonalds could actually contain finely tuned racehorse.

I'm sceptical about everything hifi but I trust Martin Ts views on most stuff and he raves about his P10 so there must be something in it.

Here's the options I'm considering:

OPTION A (cheap option): Get electrician to run a radial circuit to hifi system and connect eight single Unswitched sockets. Upgrade main fuse.

OPTION B: Buy a Power Inspired AG1500 mains regenerator and run an eight socket block from it.

OPTION C: Buy two Power Inspired AG500 mains regenerator and run four components (to be decided) off each regenerator.

OPTION D: Get a PS P10.

OPTION E: Any other suggestions.

[John]

I would also consider a dedicated earth as well
Getting a dedicated mains was a big step up for me
Also consider a Airtight Balanced mains no idea what they like in comparison to the P!10 but a lot of studios use them so You need to allow plenty of head room I used to have my amp running a separate spur but everything else connected to balanced transformer as system sounded better this way

[Ali Tait]

http://www.airlinktransformers.com/standard_balanced_power_supplies/61-BPS3110S.html

I'm currently building something similar myself. Just waiting for a couple of bits and pieces to come.

[John7]

You can't beat a dedicated earth. Have one for the Bush radiogram. Semprini never sounded so good...

And as for the shipping forecast...wow!

[Ali Tait]

:D

[AlanS]

As you know I went for B AG1500 and was very pleasantly surprised especially for the cost. Some folks must have the PS Audio stuff but because I have never heard it cannot say more than is it that vastly superior (other than in cost).

Another forum has a number of satisfied members who bought AG1500/500s when on offer to them

Option A is for old school thinkers and no doubt makes them very happy but it doesn't make mains uniform/steady regardless of time of day and external influences - but you can see it so it must be good.

Option C limits the current draw for anyone item to 500 watts, whereas the B option allows a 3 times higher max current 1500 watts- significant for amplifiers

Have fun

[Z-A]

We went through most stages of your plan, each bringing their own benefits. Mains spur was first many years ago, (10mm to a custom junction box, all copper, 6mm to sockets) inc dedicated mains switch, so not run from domestic cu. next came filters, Isotek Titans, good but not totally convincing. Swapped them for Airlink balanced trafo's, definite improvement, no doubt about it. They are not pretty and can buzz if dc present, like any trafo. This dc on the line was getting pretty bad here, so swapped to P10 which trumped the lot, by quite a margin, this feeding an 80k system. Since then the national grid upgraded the area supply and incoming voltage is far more consistent at 240v, but while the work was carried out we had a huge generator set outside running 24/7, the P10 recorded 223v. It continuously fed 240v to the system.

I am not linked to PS Audio in any way, nor Signature Systems, but would place a regenerator such as the P10 as a very important piece if your mains is anything but perfect, which means everywhere.

[Ali Tait]

A DC blocker would have sorted the hum on the Airlink.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

So, from comments so far I'm assuming Option A isn't going to cut the mustard?

[Ali Tait]

Dunno how much it will improve matters compared to the other options but it certainly wouldn't hurt. I'd probably be inclined to do this first and then look at balanced/regenerators etc. later.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Good point Ali. And as the main box is just the other side of my listening room it would be relatively simple to get cable down wall and under floorboards. Questions for you: Ring or Radial? What size cable for each please?

[Ali Tait]

I'd do a radial, say using 6mm squared size cable, maybe 10mm if it'll fit into the socket connectors. A larger size cable will reduce impedance.

[Ali Tait]

Using it's own MCB in the CU if you can

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Radial= one run of cable? Sorry for being so thick, I'm a complete novice with most stuff electrical.

*Ask me anything to do with the use of performance enhancing drugs in cycling and my knowledge is like an encyclopedia.

[Z-A]

Dunno how much it will improve matters compared to the other options but it certainly wouldn't hurt. I'd probably be inclined to do this first and then look at balanced/regenerators etc. later.

I agree, start here, then try balanced transformers or regenerator.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Using it's own MCB in the CU if you can

Could I put in a new consumer unit alongside the existing one? Or perhaps a new CU? It's an old unit so could probably do with replacing.

[Markiii]

in principle yes you can, thats what I did, a seperate small CU just for the AV gear

it depends exactly how your current wiring is set out and what space you have around the CU and Meter

Since your almost certainly getting a sparks in to make the changes at the CU even if he needs to put in new meter tails and a junction box for the new CU it shouldn't be much of an issue

[Ali Tait]

Radial= one run of cable? Sorry for being so thick, I'm a complete novice with most stuff electrical.

*Ask me anything to do with the use of performance enhancing drugs in cycling and my knowledge is like an encyclopedia.

Not a problem, no-one knows everything. Yes, you are correct, a radial is one run straight from CU to socket.

[Sovereign]

As I used to live in the middle of town near some factories in an old terace house I knew I had to do something about my mains. I upgraded my mains to a full (nearly) Roy K Riches radial instal which made quite a difference. I then bought an Airlink 3.5Kva balanced mains transformer which again improved things but it hummed like mad, I didn't know anything about a DC Blocker then and I'm sure it would have helped.
In my new house my mains is untampered and I bought a Power Inspired AG1500 which brought a real and noticible improvement, I am soon to work backwards from my AG1500 and instal another RKR radial instal, I have heard that a RKR mains installation improves the performance of the AG1500 further still but I am yet to try this.
Good luck

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Hi James. Thanks for your thoughts.

Please could you explain what a RKR mains install is?

And could you or someone else explain why a mains regenerator will work better with 'purer' mains. Surely a regenerator just takes crap power and makes it clean 230v power?

Thanks
Harry

[jandl100]

OPTION B: Buy a Power Inspired AG1500 mains regenerator and run an eight socket block from it.


:thumbsup:

I got one a year or so ago.
Very very pleased.
I had a PS Audio Power Plant Premiere (PPP) at the time, but the Power Inspired guys were offering a great deal on the AG1500 on the Wigwam forum, so I thought I'd give it a try. I do like to try different things! :)

Well -- the specs on the PS Audio gear look better, but in terms of the sonics it unleashed from my gear, the AG1500 punted the PPP into the long grass. I was surprised, no, amazed!

Still very happy with mine.

[MartinT]

If you haven't changed your sockets to unswitched, that's the first thing to do. Better still, put a decent silver unswitched double in (such as an EPS-100 (http://www.the-missing-link.net/new_page_1.htm)) if you can.

The next stage: P10. 'nuff said.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Jerry, that's interesting.

Martin, I fitted eight single unswitched sockets last year.

[jandl100]

Martin, I fitted eight single unswitched sockets last year.

... and ... ?

Was it a worthwhile improvement?

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

... and ... ?

Was it a worthwhile improvement?

Yes, definitely.

[Sovereign]

Hi mate.
There is a chap who doesn't post on forums any more but his name is Roy K Riches, he was on PFM a lot. He is one of those chaps who is very passionate and somewhat extreme, he is one of the main authorities on mains effects and installations relating to hifi performance. A lot of what he preached is followed today and by reading some previous threads there are quite a few who have their mains installed in a similar way to his suggestions.
I have some 60 odd pages of his research I can email to you, but it would be a lot easier just to follow some of the conclusions myself and others have drawn.
Roy K Riches is a thoroughly decent chap and if your in Kent he will probably even pay you a visit.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Thanks James. Much appreciated. Ill try to find those threads. Sadly, I couldn't be much further away from Kent.

[AlanS]

If you haven't changed your sockets to unswitched, that's the first thing to do. Better still, put a decent silver unswitched double in (such as an EPS-100 (http://www.the-missing-link.net/new_page_1.htm)) if you can.

The next stage: P10. 'nuff said.

If he is going to power things from a P10 soon what will be the point of changing his existing sockets, they wont be used any more? Or am I missing something

[MartinT]

He will still need one good one, and an excellent input power cable. The P10 is sensitive to its power feed so to get the best from it I recommend a silver socket and MCRU Ultimate power cable.

[AlanS]

He will still need one good one, and an excellent input power cable. The P10 is sensitive to its power feed so to get the best from it I recommend a silver socket and MCRU Ultimate power cable.

P10 is sensitive to its power feed - how ironic and the need for a super mains cable too. What on earth goes down the pan if you use a std socket and keetle lead? I always feel uneasey with tempramental kit.

[MartinT]

The P10 is feeding the entirety of the system. Ergo, everything going in to the system goes down that single power cable. Are you really going to spend so much on a P10 and then quibble over the power lead? It has nothing to do with temperament, the P10 has been rock stable for me in over a year of constant use.

[Sovereign]

MartinT if the P10 responds well to mains going into it then that gives me more insentive to install a dedicated CU and radial going into my AG 1500. I'm hoping for good things, sounds like I won't be disappointed

[MartinT]

I don't think you will be, James. Let us know how it goes.

Some other tips: the fuse in the input lead is the most critical of all; I use a Hi-Fi Tuning 13A fuse (but Russ Andrews and Isoclean are almost as good). Keep the contacts clean throughout the mains distribution, both at the plug and IEC ends. I use Deoxit.

[Sovereign]

:eek:I plan to run it all fuseless,

[MartinT]

Careful, James. Don't make it unsafe or a fire risk. We'd all rather that you remain safe to enjoy your system for many years to come.

[AlanS]

He will still need one good one, and an excellent input power cable. The P10 is sensitive to its power feed so to get the best from it I recommend a silver socket and MCRU Ultimate power cable.


The P10 is feeding the entirety of the system. Ergo, everything going in to the system goes down that single power cable. Are you really going to spend so much on a P10 and then quibble over the power lead? It has nothing to do with temperament, the P10 has been rock stable for me in over a year of constant use.

Martin

Your response puzzled me hence not jumping to reply. To me a device that is sensitive to its power feed is tempramental, not robust easy going it is sensitive.

Yes everything goes down the input cable (single as you choose to emotively load it).

I was looking to a comment about how the mains cable has affected SQ, which I assume is what you mean by sensitive to instead I get a salesman response about quibble on the power lead you choose to recommend to people.

Lets look at your recommendation. A MCRU Ultimate is over £700 I believe, it has a 20 amp cable. A 13A plug would not go near that 20A cable capacity. The P10 has a maximum current draw of 7.5 amps, well within the capacity of most cables sold for mains use, far less than a kettle and about half the 13A plug spec.

Instead of a comment about SQ I got the quibble comment. Martin I'm not quibbling I am challenging your very expensive vastly over speced cable recommendation - it could buy a lot of music

[MartinT]

Your response puzzled me hence not jumping to reply. To me a device that is sensitive to its power feed is tempramental, not robust easy going it is sensitive.

Yes everything goes down the input cable (single as you choose to emotively load it).

I was looking to a comment about how the mains cable has affected SQ, which I assume is what you mean by sensitive to instead I get a salesman response about quibble on the power lead you choose to recommend to people.

Ok, I think we have some semantic differences Alan, so I'll try and better describe what I know about power and what I hear.

Firstly, I'm an engineer by training and in my early life, so I'm the furthest thing you can imagine from a salesman. I don't do bullshit and I'm not trying to sell you anything!

There's a big difference between steady-state conditions and the dynamic demands of real music. My system, for instance, idles at some 110W all-in when not playing anything. However, even an averaging display will show that I'm hitting well over 300W when I'm playing at my normal volume, and an instantaneous readout would show well over 1000W peaks on transient demand from, say, a drum beat. This is all well documented and was famously/notoriously pushed by Musical Fidelity when they were trying to educate us with just how much power is required for realistic reproduction of music and how few systems have the power reserves required (yes, I know they had an ulterior motive).

All these instantaneous power demands come from the power supply reservoirs, which in turn make the demands on the mains supply. In fact, because of the way that bridge rectifiers work in linear supplies, the recharge peaks can be quite nasty and make some horrible demands even under steady state conditions, such as in the power supplies of DACs and preamps. Now add all this together and think about what is being asked of the mains. It has nothing to do with 13A steady state specifications and everything to do with low impedance not getting in the way of the instantaneous current peaks.

Now you can start to see that a low impedance supply means big beefy components so that the current demands are not strangled. One of the benefits of the P10 is that, because it is an active component, it can actually lower the impedance compared with what's seen at the socket so that your equipment sees a very stiff, low impedance power supply which doesn't droop when high demands are made of it.

However - this is the bit that you are questioning - all the demands by the various components being made of the regenerator must still come from somewhere, and that somewhere is the input cable. Put a kettle lead on it and you will strangle your power amplifier's transient ability because the cable has too high an impedance compared with the ring main or spur feeding it (this is easily measured with a good DVM). This isn't bullshit as I have heard the effect of switching between a standard IEC cable and something like an MCRU Ultimate, or even better the Furukawa 2.6 that I'm using that is incredibly stiff and beefy.

To qualify what I'm saying to help you understand how this affects sound quality, the benefits are largely in bass transients, dynamic clout and realism in all the microdynamic detail that makes music sound more like a real performance. Just the transient aspect to drum beats alone makes it worth investing in at least an Ultimate. As I said, everything in your system is getting its power through this one cable so you need it to be the best one you can afford.

Now to your comment about sensitive and temperamental. I think we are just using the words differently. How about if I say that the P10 encourages such system transparency that it responds well even to input cable improvements? In other words, it makes it worth the investment. In no way is it temperamental as that would suggest that it doesn't work well with a standard cable, which of course it does. It's just better with a better feed!

I hope I've made some sense. Must get back to work now :)