Another session with phono stages.. Puresound P10

[DSJR]

Don't worry chaps, this ain't going to be another Rega and Croft-fest - I'll leave that to my "apprentice" Alex_UK to do a write up and piccie-post on our latest escapades at hifi dave's place :lol: but I wanted to give a shout to a product I've never really listened to. You lot and I love to see pics of various HiFi get-togethers, so why let a bitter and jealous outsider spoil it for everyone?

There are loads of phono stages available under a grand or so, some well known to you and others perhaps not. I freely admit I'll never get to hear all of the them and neither shall I get the chance to try loads of different cartridges to see what suits what (and I readily agree that ideally the two should be bought as a pair for very best results). But in the session we had yesterday, the P10 stood out as something special and with a slightly different twist on the usual RIAA phono stage. Hopefully this brief resume of these very few will complement a little the other interesting phono-stage bake-off pending on a separate thread here :)

Alex and I tried the ubiquitous Rega Brio R (as phono stage) and bloody nice it is too, the separate Croft phono stage seems to build on this - just a bit more of everything and this is further developed in the expensive 25RS preamp, which just makes everything a tiny bit easiler to listen to and through I found once again - at a price The 25RS and R mono's we used are £5600 the lot.... :eek: Yes, the iPhono was there as well, well run-in and warm to the touch and sadly, it wasn't really in the sonic running in this company. Loads of pr@t to be sure, with good up-front detail reproduction and plenty of kick-drum bass thump, but the sound was all but airless, all the subtle atmosphere and spatial clues (and the emotional connection that goes with it) somewhat diluted for some reason in comparison with the others we heard (also an EAR834P used with an Apheta cartridge later on). I tried tinkering with capacitance settings and also increasing the gain on the fixed coil pickup we used, to no avail and in fact I'm now *currently* of the opinion that with fixed coil pickups anyway, changing the capacitive loading is a cosmetic change at best and inaudible at least, a decision you'd have to make for yourselves methinks. Pre-conceived generalisations? Up to you chaps, but my decades of being in this industry does give hunches, especially when "trusted ears" tell you and confirm what you eventually hear for yourself. Apologies if that didn't come through properly last week... May be different with MC types re resistive loading though, but the iPhono just seems to sap the textures of the sonic backgrounds out and this for me anyway, over-rides all other sonic considerations.

The real surprise was the Puresound P10. A heavy little box, I didn't look inside as it's selling stock, but a peek through the side vents seems to indicate a nicely made bit of kit with quite a lot inside compared to the featherlight (in comparison) Croft RIAA box. There appears to be a lightness of touch here that's quite captivating, although again, others here may confirm that it's system dependant. I loved it and I hope this little shout for it will encourage you chaps to give one a go. (I've never to my knowledge met Guy Sargeant and have no business nor contact with him other than one or two posts here - he does have a small dealer base too).

Loads more to talk about - Didn't get a chance to try the little Albarry MC stage this time and some Ortofon MC's on dem are to be tried next time, some new music discoveries for me, the rather lovely RP8 deck, new Rega cables and an extremely colourful :eek: newsletter - a far cry from the bulk-copied "The Rage" that we used to get (should be the current NVA newsletter methinks ;)), the Funk turntable (which is getting there nicely - high hopes here once production is shaken down) and the other usual boring stuff too that many of us here know and love, but one thing I should add please - my idea of "entry level" is now £100 and under, NOT £500 or so as hinted at by some reviewers. Scanning through some recent HiFi News rags, I'm gobsmacked at the insane prices charged for "pukka" Top End, so of course, if your mindset is along the HFN lines, products at this level (well under £1K) would fall way below the radar.

[Clive]

Dave, I don't think your views on the iPhono are necessarily that opposed to my findings though you express them differently and degree varies too. Systems vary and this is probably part of the reason. I also compared iPhono to a valve phonostage, one with an LCR module and it wouldn't surprise me if it bettered the one's referred to in your OP - I know it's loads better in IMO than the EAR834P . I can't know how it compares to the P10 as I've not heard one but I know what LCRs bring and it is significant, the cost is somewhat higher too.

If "air" is an over-riding priority then I would expect good valve phonostages to win out over solidstate but solidstate will often do the bass regions better, as you suggest. Being of an age where my ears cannot be in the condition of a 16 year old who's never been exposed to iPods, I find air at the very top-end is less of a priority for me now.

[DSJR]

Typing is a royal pain, as saying it over a pint or two (Doombar in our case the other day) takes so much less time, but the solid state Rega Brio R used as a phono stage did sound better to our ears (I MUST get Alex to give his views on it). I really wanted the iPhono to be good, so I could come back here and grovellingly apologise, but I'm afraid we three did find it a bit "HiFi" in comparison to the others (including an 834P incidentally used for MC comparisons), but in my defence I should say that "humming along with the tune" and "singing along with songs I know" is vital to me. Just having the "leading edges" given priority (and the iPhono almost out-Naim's Naim IMO in this respect) isn't enough, especially as some of the tracks we listened to were old dem favourites I've heard a million times ("Yew, yes yew, there behind the bike sheds. SSTAND SSTILL LADDIE!!!!") :lol:

The gear we three use at home has to describe a good soundstage, both front to back as well as side to side. Every time we returned to the iPhono, the sound became what I describe as "HiFi Show," all on the surface and no "shape" to the image, some echo effects being diluted.. My "main" phono stage right now is a forty year old matched-transistor type in my old preamp and this "does it" like the Croft does in direct comparison.

Oh crap, this sounds like I'm on a mission to justify my comments last week. Maybe I am, although I'm no more a guru than anyone here except guiding-light Marco, who's site this is; but for Alex and me, the huge surprise was the Puresound P10 (no shilling here I can assure you since I don't know Guy at all). Not for everyone I'm sure, but what a little star this is IMO. Doesn't jump in with both feet like the Crofts do in comparison, but a more delicate touch that still had my attention in seconds. I want to hear more of this device and also the transformer Guy does, in addition to the little Albarry headamp that Dave had too (just not enough time to try it this week). Loads of you chaps have heard and used the P10 I think, so it would be good to see if anyone else feels as I do about it.

All great fun and it's a bloody good job we all have different tastes. I mean, we couldn't all be perfect and own AVI ADM9's fed via Apple product now, could we ;)

[Clive]

Hmm, sounds like synergy to me or lack of. I know that in my system the iPhono works really well with one deck/cartridge but with my 301/London Ref it's too much. I don't believe it's possble to favour a single phono stage for all setups, hence my twin decks and phono stages. It's a bit of a luxury but I relish changing having differing presentations available to me.

My system majors on sounstage/imaging, iPhono works well for me in this area. I'm not so much of a sing along type, I aim for a smile on my face.:)

[Gromit]

Yup - I'm a big fan of the P10 and ended up buying one on the back of being loaned Deco's demo unit when the 'stage was first released. It does seem very slightly amp fussy, that's to say it works brilliantly into some and doesn't seem to gel with others. Guy would of course be able to shed some light onto what the P10 needs in terms of the electrical matching side of things (I haven't the foggiest of fogs) but when matched correctly, it hits a bullseye.

It didn't really like my Exposure XIV, nor was it a fan of the WD 88VA, but into the KEL84 (and of course the P'sound A30 itself) it was fabulous.

[chelsea]

Very nice phono.
Hoping to get one this year to go with my ps amp.

[julesd68]

Certainly have no plans to change mine.

Really solid build quality as Dave noted. And it looks neat inside aswell as I found out when I upgraded the valves to JJ Gold Pins which was very worthwhile.

[Clive]

Reading around it seems the P10 has a high output impedance, nothing too unusual for a valve phonostage but it does need to be matched with a suitable amp, probably best with an active preamp too. Most likely it would slew into my TVC. Nothing wrong with this, it just needs partnering with suitable kit.

[pure sound]

Some kind words, thanks.

I generally recommend the P10 be loaded by 47kOhm or higher.

With regard to what Clive was saying above, I'd agree that equalisation applied using carefully designed inductors does potentially bring something extra but it can't be done on a budget & is inevitably going to result in a significantly more expensive phono stage. There are a few interesting designs beginning to appear that utilise this approach and those that I've heard, alongside others I've been working on with friends do seem to show a great deal of promise.

Check out stages from Allnic, Ypsilon, Thrax, and Aurorasound. Wavac, Audio Tekne & Kondo also use it but they really are £££.

[Firebottle]

Reading around it seems the P10 has a high output impedance,...

Looking at the spec there are only two valves in it, so no cathode follower on the output.
A bit of an omission in my book. Just my 2p

:cool: Alan

[Dingdong]

Looking at the spec there are only two valves in it, so no cathode follower on the output.
A bit of an omission in my book. Just my 2p

:cool: Alan

Perhaps it was designed down to a budget.

[Clive]

If you have a correct type of partnering preamp then you've saved a stage in the phono section which should be beneficial. But it does make it less universal. It's a very valid design choice.

[pure sound]

Looking at the spec there are only two valves in it, so no cathode follower on the output.
A bit of an omission in my book. Just my 2p

:cool: Alan

Not in mine ;)

[DSJR]

Many solid state line stages seem to have 20k or less as an input impedance, which is very sad IMO. keeping their line inputs at 47k or higher can help minimise all the foo wire and plug recommendations IMO since the system becomes less influenced by odd characteristics in these I reckon - Am I right in this assumption?

[Clive]

Dave didn't manage to lift the lid of the P10, here's a pic if the inside.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/P10_zps2724dd54.jpg

Point-to-point is often good though this looks a little diy-ish or should I say Croft-like but if it delivers the good sonically then who am I to complain?

One thing Dave didn't do was a real price comparison. The P10 price seems hard to track down. I've seen £400 from 5 years ago, £595 and £660 today, someone told me they's seen it for £700. Of course it's MM only, which is fine for the likes of me but many want MC too, this adds £340 if the price I've seen is correct. So in reality this is a £1k phono stage or thereabouts.

The iPhono is £350. A more useful comparison with the P10 would my something like my Vinyl Song LCR which assembled and with UK delivery would be a little more expensive than the P10 but only by about 20%. The P10 is 300% the price of the iPhono!

[hifi_dave]

The P10 retail price is £659 and very good it is too.

[Clive]

The P10 retail price is £659 and very good it is too.
Thanks Dave for the clarification. What's the price all in for the P10 and matching MC stepups?

From what I can tell the P10 config is quite similar to a circuit I've played with but later on I added CCS to both valves to great effect. This really is a diy one this time! Yes the ps resistors are a bit of a mess, this was due to trial and error to get the voltages as I wanted them.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/ccsphonosm.jpg

[hifi_dave]

The T10 MC x'mer is £339.

[Clive]

The T10 MC x'mer is £339.
Thanks Dave. So that's £998 for a full MC version.

[hifi_dave]

Thanks Dave. So that's £998 for a full MC version.

Yes, that's about right..:scratch:

That, to me, looks pretty good value as I've seen phono stages with no more inside (better bits of course), selling for £10K and more.

I'm losing the plot with prices of some of the gear available now. Look through any of the mags and it's like reading Yellow Pages with all the telephone number prices.

Is it me..?

[Clive]

Yes, that's about right..:scratch:

That, to me, looks pretty good value as I've seen phono stages with no more inside (better bits of course), selling for £10K and more.

I'm losing the plot with prices of some of the gear available now. Look through any of the mags and it's like reading Yellow Pages with all the telephone number prices.

Is it me..?
I'm in the wrong job!

[pure sound]

Its a bit difficult comparing a product intended to be sold via retailers and priced accordingly with a diy product intended to be sold directly to end users for them to build. Indeed given that lcr modules from Silk and Allnic can be bought loose for 300 dollars and given that there are circuits online, it could be argued that a resourceful diyer could make one for a good deal less than the 1200 dollars diysupply are asking for the vinyl song. The only other issue is that many of the published circuits actually give far from accurate eq and ideally you"d need to be handy with sPice to check how the circuit will behave when built. The other downside of diy products is that resale values are often poor in relation to the kit price but that isn"t an issue if you never intend to sell it.

[Clive]

The LCR phonostage I have is off-the-shelf assembled product but I take you point about direct vs indirect sales and pricing models. Likewise I expect you'll agree you wouldn't expect a dealer sold product 1/3rd the retail price of the P10 to be compared with it.

[pure sound]

No I wouldn't although people often make those kinds of comparison & post their findings on t' web. How much is the fully built Vinyl Song? Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of what DIYHiFiSupply do but their customers are very different to those who buy ready built products via dealers after auditioning. You'd need to be quite confident of what you were buying to stump up a high price for a kit or readybuilt product that you hadn't had the opportunity to audition somewhere. You also need to be prepared to take a bigger hit on resale value as well.

[DSJR]

In some defence, we used the phono stage (MM only) from the Brio R (£400 or so used on fleabay - thanks RD for the links :lol:) and this was pretty decent as well.

I wondered why the P10 weighed so much. There's quite a lot more in there over the Croft and since both look to be hand-made, the prices seem fair I think.

I was reading about a phono stage in two large and exquisite boxes which costs £50K or more - absolutely incredible to me. Apparently the performance is worse than a sub £100 NAD...

[Clive]

The DIYhfs LCR phono is under a grand but there's uk tax on top, hence it is a bit more expensive than your MC equipped P10. Actually 2nd hand units like this sell reasonably well on forums but yes the market is specialised. I was more concerned that a £350 iPhono was being compared with a £998 P10 + matching SUTs - as a fair comparison I feel pricing needs to contrasted with MC in mind though of course MM users will see this differently.

[pure sound]

There are many other less & more expensive SUT's that people choose to partner with the P10. They don't have to buy the T10. I've been using a fabulous sounding borrowed Koetsu SUT for the past few weeks, it works very nicely into the P10 despite costing 3 or 4 times as much.