Denon 103 which version is best?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Ok so you have read the title of the thread, what do you think... Discuss.com please....

[Rare Bird]

Andy:
I did fancy a '103' a bit back but i couldnt possibly risk my records at such VTF.

[MartinT]

The VTF at, say, 2.5g with a spherical stylus won't do any more damage than a fine line contact at 1.8g - the contact patch and loading per square mm will be about the same. It's mistracking that kills a groove, not VTF.

[AlfaGTV]

The VTF at, say, 2.5g with a spherical stylus won't do any more damage than a fine line contact at 1.8g - the contact patch and loading per square mm will be about the same. It's mistracking that kills a groove, not VTF.

I would like to say you've got it backwards there, Martin.
Thats exactly the point with advanced shaped styluses, more contact area, thus less pressure per square mm...

We do agree on the fact that mistracking and faulty settings are the big culprits though!!!

Regards
/Mike

[NRG]

Yep, good reference thread here:

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22894

[NRG]

....as to which 103 is the best, hard to say as you can't buy much else other than the cooking 103 or the 103R...I think the 103SA did it for me but as you can't get a new one then the 103R re-boddied is pretty dam close.

[prestonchipfryer]

I have a 103R. It sounds pretty good. Should mention that a 3g headshell weight is used in my V.

On the point of record wear, there is more likely damage to grooves if mistracking occurs. No probs with 2.5g for me.

[Rare Bird]

My OCD would be climbing the wall with 2.5g :eek:

[Wakefield Turntables]

So the R has pure copper, what characteristics does the. S and A Versions have? Additionally why do you need an additional outer aluminium body, what purpose does this have:cool:

[MartinT]

Thats exactly the point with advanced shaped styluses

I disagree; the point of fine line styli is to better replicate the v shape of the cutting chisel. They do not necessarily have greater contact surface, just a more accurate contact line.

[SteveO]

Hi, there are a few After market shells available for the DL103, some made from aluminum and others from various hardwoods. You do however have to remove the existing plastic body, and if not done with care this can damage your cartridge.

It is generaly agreed that the after market shells do increase the sound quality of the Dl103.
Mine tracks fine and dandy at 2grams downforce.

[Marco]

My OCD would be climbing the wall with 2.5g...

Try using an SPU at 4g!! :eek: :eyebrows:

Honestly, dude, high VTF isn't a problem, as long as the stylus is in tip-top condition and the cartidge has been set-up properly :)

I've used heavy-tracking cartridges pretty much from day 1 of owning a turntable, and I have records which have been subjected to 30+ years of high VTFs, still playing today like brand new (and I keep my records in minto condition)! :trust:

Now, that wouldn't be the case, would it, if there were a problem? ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Andrew,

The best 103s, IMO, based on many years of experience of using this cartridge, are the Zu-modified ones, closely followed by the DL-103SA, which just edges out the 103Pro, available from Eifl, in Japan :)

Marco.

[UV101]

I've got nothing to compare to but my ESCO modded std 103 is a mile up from the std one.

I've owned 2 ESCO modded 103's but never the R or SA etc. I would be interested to see if the R modded would be any better???

[blake]

No experience with the stock 103 but I've been running modified 103R's for more than 5 years now. While you'll never find 100% concensus in this hobby, I think it's fair to say, from what I've read, that most with experience with both the stock 103 and "R" version find the R to be superior and worth the added expense.

103D certainly has its fans, but like the SA is no longer available.

In terms of improvements, the stock 103 and 103R will both be improved (I would say vastly improved) with a body change. I've run my 103R's in ebony, clavellin and aluminum bodies. The aluminum and ebony are both excellent, although different in my book; I was less impressed with the clavellin but still felt it to be significantly better than the stock plastic body. The aluminum bodies, commonly available around $50, are a real bargain IMO.

The cartridge takes another substantial leap in performance with a retip with a line contact stylus. Both of my 103R's have ruby cantilevers with line contact styli done by Peter Ledermann at Soundsmith, who also potted the cartridges (as Zu does with theirs) for a fee at the same time the retips were done.

If you have a stock 103R already, you can look at a version with an aluminum body, fully potted with a line contact stylus for about another $375, which IMO is a huge bargain and sounds infinitely better than the stock 103R. There really is no comparison. I could never go back to a stock 103R.

Worries about record wear are unfounded. I've been playing my records for the past 7 years with 103R's, the first three years with the stock conical at 2.6 grams and the last 4 years with line contact styli at 2.45 grams with no discernable record wear.

[Tarzan]

The Expert stylus company DL103, is that a stock item or do you wait for them to work their magic on it, or do you have to send your own one in?:scratch:

[Rare Bird]

Try using an SPU at 4g!! :eek: :eyebrows:

Honestly, dude, high VTF isn't a problem, as long as the stylus is in tip-top condition and the cartidge has been set-up properly :)

I've used heavy-tracking cartridges pretty much from day 1 of owning a turntable, and I have records which have been subjected to 30+ years of high VTFs, still playing today like brand new (and I keep my records in minto condition)! :trust:

Now, that wouldn't be the case, would it, if there were a problem? ;)



No thanks, i like to sleep at night :D .. It'll probably be a 'G800 Super E' styli off to Dom for a full Cantilever/tip rebuild. I'm more happy with that tracking at 1-1.25g..Besides i'd rather keep the Text book set of 'GL75' TT/'GL75' Arm/'G800SE' cart.

[MartinT]

One thing I noticed at Mike's, and made comment on, is how well the SPU deals with surface dust. It just doesn't care, heaving all the crap aside. Really impressive!

[John]

I had Dominic modify one Mirco edge rugby cantilever and changed the body sounded very good

[daytona600]

103 very nice , see link to remove the plastic body
much better with wood or metal body then a good retip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ENq8PoXhaU

have ten new 103 dues soon for £140 inc uk shipping
( no silly import charges )

also some 103r & dl304 , 102

[Wakefield Turntables]

Found this and this ebayer is pretty respected.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-DL-103-Low-Output-MC-Cartridge-Made-in-Japan-/281062306941?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item41709e747d

[MartinT]

2juki is a good man. Watch the import duty and VAT, though.

[daytona600]

martin same price as 2juki with no extra charges
£140 inc uk delivery

[MartinT]

Scott - it's Andy who is looking for one. Looks like a good deal :)

[Yomanze]

I used the DL103 for a couple of years & got the best out of it by removing the body and mounting in wood or on a brass plate. The "R" is more polite and not as musically involving in my opinion, but opinions vary. The casing is a definite weakness of the DL103 as noticed by modders and Zu Audio.

[Barry]

Yep, good reference thread here:

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22894

An excellent read. It has completely dismissed a misconception I have held for many years: that spherical stylii had a larger 'footprint' than elliptical stylii, and so could track at a higher VTF without concomitant record wear.

[Wakefield Turntables]

martin same price as 2juki with no extra charges
£140 inc uk delivery

Scott you may be getting a pm soon :) I just fancy a new toy ;)

[Qwin]

Andy - have you considered the Denon DL-301 II.
It has a slightly higher output at 0.4mv, tracks at 1.2/1.6g and has a frequency range of 20Hz-60kHz. The main reason I got one is for its reputation for ignoring surface noise and minor defects. I can confirm it runs very quite on my pre-used vinyl which is 95% of my collection. Fine sounding cartridge as well. I came accross it by accident, being recomended by folks over at AudioKarma.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Ken,

Nope, never even heard of this version. :eek: The 103 will be sitting on a SME3012 and be used with my 301, I have a Koestu black doing duties at this moment in time :eyebrows: I just fancied a bit of budget esoterica:D

Andy

[blake]

Ken,

Nope, never even heard of this version. :eek: The 103 will be sitting on a SME3012 and be used with my 301, I have a Koestu black doing duties at this moment in time :eyebrows: I just fancied a bit of budget esoterica:D

Andy

For what it's worth, I've owned a Koetsu Black in the past and wouldn't trade either of my rebodied and retipped 103R's for a Koetsu Black, brand new or otherwise.

[Wakefield Turntables]

For what it's worth, I've owned a Koetsu Black in the past and wouldn't trade either of my rebodied and retipped 103R's for a Koetsu Black, brand new or otherwise.

I dont intend to trade anything ;) Sometimes you fancy a change. :eyebrows:

[walpurgis]

As it costs far more, logically the 103R should be better than the base 103 and it is, significantly!

I wouldn't go back to either now though.

[RobbieGong]

As it costs far more, logically the 103R should be better than the base 103 and it is, significantly!

I wouldn't go back to either now though.

Genuinely, Why Geoff ?

[southall-1998]

Genuinely, Why Geoff ?

Maybe because he found a cart that sounds better in his system?

[RobbieGong]

Maybe because he found a cart that sounds better in his system?

Maybe !

[walpurgis]

Genuinely, Why Geoff ?

I was using a DL-103R as one of my two main MC cartridges and it definitely was a nice cartridge (the other was a very rare and excellent Technics EPC-305MC).

On a whim, I bought a ZYX R50 H and was amazed at how superior it was, so much more depth, totally uncoloured and a huge soundstage. It was the first cartridge to make me stop thinking about the sound and listen to the music instead. I now have three ZYX MCs and love them.

Also, I recently got my hands on an Ortofon MC25 FL (thanks Julian), this too is outstanding.

[MartinT]

That's the same feeling I got when I bought my Shelter, Geoff. I just listen to the music and stop worrying about tracking weight, end of side distortion etc. It simply sails through sounding great all the time.

[NRG]

I was using a DL-103R as one of my two main MC cartridges and it definitely was a nice cartridge (the other was a very rare and excellent Technics EPC-305MC).

On a whim, I bought a ZYX R50 H and was amazed at how superior it was, so much more depth, totally uncoloured and a huge soundstage. It was the first cartridge to make me stop thinking about the sound and listen to the music instead. I now have three ZYX MCs and love them.

Also, I recently got my hands on an Ortofon MC25 FL (thanks Julian), this too is outstanding.

Interesting, just shows how we are all very different...I think thats a good indication of the way you like your system to present music. I find the MC25 FL bright, a bit hard and not involving at all...its very 'grey' IME.

[walpurgis]

That's the same feeling I got when I bought my Shelter, Geoff. I just listen to the music and stop worrying about tracking weight, end of side distortion etc. It simply sails through sounding great all the time.

I've heard good things about the Shelters and would like to hear what they can do, not listened to one yet. A comparison with the ZYXs would be interesting.

[walpurgis]

Interesting, just shows how we are all very different...I think thats a good indication of the way you like your system to present music. I find the MC25 FL bright, a bit hard and not involving at all...its very 'grey' IME.

Strange, I find the MC25 FL sounding the opposite. It's sweet and full, but very lucid and open in my system. It may be the lightly fluid damped Mission 774 arm that allows this. It seems to suit MCs and Deccas very well. I'm not keen on undamped arms, I had a poor experience with my Ittok for instance and never came to terms with the various 'upgraded' Rega options I tried.