My Techie journey

[Markiii]

Well I figured that I could start a load of independant but very short threads as and when I need to pick the collective brains or keep it all in one thread and my rambling may possibly prove useful to someone else to read later on.

Anyone who read my introduction or gallery thread may remeber that I have a 1210Mk2

I bought this relatively cheaply a couple of years ago as I wanted to get back into vinyl and had heard good things.

Typically I decided I didn't like the captive cables so added

IEC power socket
Gold plated RCA sockets
Sorbothane feet
Granite isolation shelf
Michell clamp
Cork mat
AT 120E Cartridge

and then promptly set about enjoying it for a year or 2

December this year saw me find AOS and actually set up the VTF, Arm height and Anti Skate, which made such a massive difference I realised I was getting the modding bug.

So if this is to be an ongoing project I decided I wanted to start with a fresh canvas and the best possible starting point. To which end I've been keeping an eye out for a bargain M5G

Well not strictly a bargain but at £499 for a mint example it was a fair price so yesterday saw me collect this

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m583/montechristo358/AV/E2F499AC-2D32-4D47-8BC7-7E85F7B4B40D-3858-00000B634F2562FA.jpg

running it bone stock last night with the supplied Stanton 500 V Cartridge yielded some interesting results. Firstly the Stanton is not a bad cartridge considering its DJ focus and the whole sound seemed more polished.

after a couple of hours I realised that more polished is actually better defined as distinctly less boogie

so the next job is going to be swapping the feet, cartridge e.t.c from the Mk2

more to follow

[Markiii]

well its been an interesting couple of days swapping things around

running the stock M5G with stanton cartridge, sat on the glass shelf against the Mk2 with its mods, on the granite isolation plinth in turn sitting on top of my turned off sub (the only support that allowed me to be close enough for an A/B comparison)

yielded the surprising result that we really couldn't tell any difference between the two. I'm not sure if I was dissapointed or not at this but it was interesting nonetheless.

Test 1 Swap the mats, putting the rubber mat from the M5 onto the MK2 and the cork mat from the MK2 onto the M5 yielded no audible difference

Test 2 put the stock Techy feet back onto the Mk2 in place of the sorbothane, this gave the M5 a clear lead due to much better base weight

At this point A/B testing was abandoned in favour of testing incremental mods on the M5G

Test 3 Put the granite isolation plinth under the M5G. The difference here was night and day with the quantity and quality of bass improving. This did surprise me as I was expecting the quality to improve but had braced myself for a reduction quantity.

Test 4 Put the mk2 headshell and AT120E cartridge onto the M5G. Probably the biggest surprise here as it sounded dreadfully slow and ponderous yet with very little bass weight.

This prompted me to examine the headshells where as you can see from the below pic there is a significant difference in the size of the headshell wires. I was aware these had been improved on the M5G but not by quite so much. I suspect a simple upgrade of these wires for around £20 would be a worthwhile upgrade on a mk2.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m583/montechristo358/AV/679fd469-637d-4e30-8443-1a9ec942bb55.jpg

Test 5 put the AT120E into the M5 headshell, reset the arm height, VTF and anti skate. A clear improvement over test 4 could be heard and definately the best overall result in terms of dynamics and soundstage to this point. Interestingly whilst in past experiments with the MK2 I couldn't tell any difference in sound by varying Anti Skate this was clearly audible on the M5G and seems at its best set to the same as the VTF. The MK2 I preffered with zero anti skate.

Test 6. Finally I put the sorbothane feet onto the M5G. Which yielded a significant improvement in overall clarity.

So after all of that has the M5G with all of the mods been a worth while change from the Mk2 with the same mods?

I'm really not sure,

I'm back to a place where I'm as happy with the sound as when I started (maybe a little more so) and the M5G was the place I wanted to start from before embarking on serious mods in the future.

Since that was really the point of the excersise I suppose its job done.

Next steps address the captive phono cables and PSU

[Tarzan]

:popcorn:

[Markiii]

is that good or bad?

[Macca]

I'm interested in your granite isolation plinth - is it home - made? From your write up it seems that made the most difference of all of the swaps you tried. I've noted thaqt the surface a deck is sat on influences the sound ewven if there is no issue with structural vibration so am thinking of experimenting in this area myself.

[Markiii]

It's DIY sort of

My lounge has a wooden floor so I wanted some granite plinths for the speakers so since I was getting those done I thought I'd experiment with some under the other equipment

I found a company on eBay that made them to order so had them make custom sizes for me

1 x turntable
1 x cd transport
6 x speakers
1x music streamer

For that total of 9 pieces I think they came out at around £40 each

They are all 1 inch thick

Must admit I'm wondering if there might be any benefit to stacking them like people do with th mana acoustic shelves

[Markiii]

So a little over a year on and due to spending money everywhere bar the hifi, not that it's been a bad year enjoying what I have, I gave in and decided I had to play with something,

Enter achromat stage left

This is replacing my really cheap cork mat

Initial impressions were of a vastly better noise floor and much clearer presentation, however after listening further this was offset by a reduced sense of pace and dare I use the terms reduction in boogie factor,

Bearing in mind that at this point I have left the rest of the setup as is and simply swapped the mats, I wondered if there was anyway to get the best of both?

Long story short removing the Mitchell clamp seems to have done just that. Now I wonder if a weight would help where the clamp failed? Or if it will be better run naked of either?

Anyone else found a lack of synergy with the Mitchell and achromat?

[Stratmangler]

Long story short removing the Mitchell clamp seems to have done just that. Now I wonder if a weight would help where the clamp failed? Or if it will be better run naked of either?

Anyone else found a lack of synergy with the Mitchell and achromat?

Been using a Michell clamp on my Techie with Achromat for ages with no problems that way.
Have you fixed the Achromat to the platter?
When you buy the Achromat new you get discs of double sided adhesive tape to fix the mat to the platter. Others here bonded the mat to the platter using petroleum jelly.

[Andrei]

So a little over a year on and due to spending money everywhere bar the hifi, not that it's been a bad year enjoying what I have, I gave in and decided I had to play with something,
Now I wonder if a weight would help where the clamp failed? Or if it will be better run naked of either?
Anyone else found a lack of synergy with the Mitchell and achromat?
I run the achromat with Michell Clamp. Not so much a question of synergy, but they both work well. I was a bit surprised that there was a difference but the clamp was an improvement over the record weight I was using. I am not certain why but I put it down to the fact that the clamp holds down the LP just as well while being lighter and therefore less weight on the bearing.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I run a very modded 1210 and my preferred mat and clamp are Michelle and acromat. You could get a further FREE performance boost by dismantling a lot of the 1210s jewellery ike the strobe light, pitch slider, que lamp. You could also spend a few tens of pounds and buy some new caps for your pcb and redo this if your handy with a soldeiring iron. Additionally buying some ferrite coils off escum and using them may produce a small benefit. The best upgrade you can do for free is getting rid of the psu Into a seperate box.

[Stratmangler]

The best upgrade you can do for free is getting rid of the psu Into a seperate box.

Not sure I agree with the "free" bit - you need to house it all in something, but it's certainly one of the most cost effective things to do.
I was amazed by the improvement taking the PSU board and transformer brought with it.
The pitch slider being taken out of circuit also improved things a lot more than you'd think it would. I think this is the closest thing to free, as I used a Molex link off a dead PC motherboard :whistle:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Not sure I agree with the "free" bit - you need to house it all in something, but it's certainly one of the most cost effective things to do.
I was amazed by the improvement taking the PSU board and transformer brought with it.
The pitch slider being taken out of circuit also improved things a lot more than you'd think it would. I think this is the closest thing to free, as I used a Molex link off a dead PC motherboard :whistle:

I removed whatever I could. I got extremely OCD and even replaced all metal screws for plastic for fear of interference getting into the PCB, looking back it was stupid but now I have a nice deck! If your on a budget lots of things can be modified on the deck for next to nothing. Sometimes you have to spend. I think my advice would be to upgrade slowly and enjoy each upgrade as it comes.

[Stratmangler]

I removed whatever I could. I got extremely OCD and even replaced all metal screws for plastic for fear of interference getting into the PCB, looking back it was stupid but now I have a nice deck! If your on a budget lots of things can be modified on the deck for next to nothing. Sometimes you have to spend. I think my advice would be to upgrade slowly and enjoy each upgrade as it comes.

I completely agree with the bit in bold.
And yes, there is a lot you can do to the Techie for little money.

[keiron99]

The pitch slider being taken out of circuit also improved things a lot more than you'd think it would. I think this is the closest thing to free, as I used a Molex link off a dead PC motherboard :whistle:
You have to be kidding! I removed it from mine for cosmetic reasons when customising the plinth. I heard no difference and I don't think there is any logical reason why it should make a difference.

[Wakefield Turntables]

You have to be kidding! I removed it from mine for cosmetic reasons when customising the plinth. I heard no difference and I don't think there is any logical reason why it should make a difference.

Its the culmination of stripping everthing out that helps.

[Stratmangler]

You have to be kidding! I removed it from mine for cosmetic reasons when customising the plinth. I heard no difference and I don't think there is any logical reason why it should make a difference.

So you never did the "takes seconds to do" comparison?
The reason it makes a difference is that you've taken a crappy & needless bit of speed control circuitry out of the equation.

[Macca]

It's not in the signal path though so unless removing it makes the rotation speed more accurate how can it affect SQ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

It's not in the signal path though so unless removing it makes the rotation speed more accurate how can it affect SQ?

You can stiffen up the plinth a little by filling the hole that it leaves when you lob it in the bin. This also stops dust getting into the PCB. It could potentially generate EMI/RFI into the main PCB, the list for getting rid in quite large. The biggest reason is that it looks shit and completely F'kin pointless when all you want to do is listen to a LP.

[keiron99]

So you never did the "takes seconds to do" comparison?


Yes. And it made no difference whatsoever.



The reason it makes a difference is that you've taken a crappy & needless bit of speed control circuitry out of the equation.
It's not crappy, and depending on what you use the turntable for, it's not needless either.

But either way, there is absolutely no way it can impact on the sound quality.

[Stratmangler]

It's not in the signal path though so unless removing it makes the rotation speed more accurate how can it affect SQ?

It makes for a quieter electrical environment, which affects the rotational stability, which in turn means that the stylus has an easier time tracing the groove.

[Stratmangler]

Yes. And it made no difference whatsoever.


It's not crappy, and depending on what you use the turntable for, it's not needless either.

But either way, there is absolutely no way it can impact on the sound quality.

I thought you made some declaration about having cloth ears, and being pleased about it because it costs you less :)
You'll be claiming that externalising the mains transformer and PSU board does not have any effect next.

[Macca]

What do you mean by 'rotational stabilty' Chris? That it does affect speed accuracy?

[Marco]

But either way, there is absolutely no way it can impact on the sound quality.

I entirely agree. I tried the disabling of the pitch control thing, and after comparing the 'before & after effect', I concluded that I could hear bugger all difference, so promptly connected things back as they were, deleted the waste of time from my memory, and continued enjoying the music :)

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

What do you mean by 'rotational stabilty' Chris? That it does affect speed accuracy?

There's an LED in circuit, and that causes ripple in the power supply.
That in turn directly affects the motor.

There's a large thread about it here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?15537-Technics-1210-mk2-pitch-fader-fix-%28and-instructions-on-its-removal%29 and in particular post 30.
That's what prompted me to try it.

Anything that reduces noise in a TT PSU is going to affect the way a stylus traces the groove.
Cleaner PSU supply = smoother motor rotation = improved groove tracing by the stylus.

[keiron99]

Putting it politely, this is poppycock.

Why on earth would an LED cause a “ripple in the power supply”? How much current would it have to be drawing, and how badly designed would the PSU have to be to be affected by it?

I read this regarding LEDs elsewhere: “An LED is electrically unbelievably-quiet since it is a forward-biased PN junction, being roughly equivalent to about a 10ohm resistor or, put another way, contributes noise c.150dB below line level. The resistor feeding it will be over 1000x noisier, and no one complains about that ... LEDs make outstandingly-quiet voltage references. There's never reason to disconnect them on grounds of 'noise'... one of those old audio myths that will not die.”

(Maybe I should remove the blue led from my Paul Hynes external PSU?!)

You are suggesting that this “ripple” and “noise” (what noise?) impacts on the stability of the speed. Why would this be? What logic or evidence supports that? The speed stability of the SL1210 is the stuff of legend.

Either way, on the 1210, the LED stays ON, so the effect would at least be stable.

In the final link in your chain, you suggest that this speed instability means that a cartridge has difficulty tracking the groove of a record. Even if there were some instability, just how erratic would it have to be – the jumps from low to high speed - and how fast would the turntable have to be spinning (I would suggest well in advance of 78rpm) – to cause the cartridge to mistrack?