Deck me out

[julesd68]

I would like to ask the forum's assistance in sorting out my vinyl reproduction.
I have been unhappy with it for a few months now. Here are the symptoms -

1. Recessed treble, no real sparkle
2. Mid-band not detailed enough
3. Bass bloat

I think the factors at play are a combination of deck, arm, cartridge and speakers. The Source undoubtedly has a very potent bass. The Kuzma is quite a heavy-weight, solid beast and maybe isn't the best match in hindsight. The Garrot is a great cart but maybe a little too smooth in my system. The Chario speakers are rear-ported and hence not best suited to being close to the back wall, and are possibly just a little rolled off at the top end.

I have just acquired a pair of Tannoy Chatsworths which are very promising. Bit too early to make a real judgement on them yet as I haven't got them positioned properly yet. However, I have noticed a great improvement in mid-band detail which is much more transparent as you might expect with Tannoys. Bass isn't massively firmer but isn't bloating quite as much as they are not rear-ported like my Charios and work better close to the back wall where my speakers have to go.

This is what I think the options are -

1. Send cart to Dom at Northwest Analogue to pimp out the cart for a more incisive treble. He knows the cart well.
2. Change cart for something with a more incisive top-end. Candidates would include Ortofon 2M Black and AT150ANV. I definitely want to stay MM.
3. Change the arm for something more agile and faster. Possibly a uni-pivot? I do have the possibility of an Odyssey arm from the ever helpful John Gordon.
4. Start over and change the deck, arm and cart. My potential budget is around £1500 for this, after selling various bits of kit.

I am not a fettler, so gear needs to be fairly plug n play or fully fettled in advance - installing a cart is about the limit of my talent here. I want to ideally get a great ex-dem deal as hopefully the deck will be set up to its full potential then. Otherwise it will have to be second-hand.

I enjoy mainly two types of music - classical and classic rock. So my kit needs to be very versatile; sweet and dynamic at the same time!

I am completely open-minded about the best way forward and that includes any brands. Look forward to your suggestions. :)

[twotone]

I would like to ask the forum's assistance in sorting out my vinyl reproduction.
I have been unhappy with it for a few months now. Here are the symptoms -

1. Recessed treble, no real sparkle
2. Mid-band not detailed enough
3. Bass bloat

I think the factors at play are a combination of deck, arm, cartridge and speakers. The Source undoubtedly has a very potent bass. The Kuzma is quite a heavy-weight, solid beast and maybe isn't the best match in hindsight. The Garrot is a great cart but maybe a little too smooth in my system. The Chario speakers are rear-ported and hence not best suited to being close to the back wall, and are possibly just a little rolled off at the top end.

I have just acquired a pair of Tannoy Chatsworths which are very promising. Bit too early to make a real judgement on them yet as I haven't got them positioned properly yet. However, I have noticed a great improvement in mid-band detail which is much more transparent as you might expect with Tannoys. Bass isn't massively firmer but isn't bloating quite as much as they are not rear-ported like my Charios and work better close to the back wall where my speakers have to go.

This is what I think the options are -

1. Send cart to Dom at Northwest Analogue to pimp out the cart for a more incisive treble. He knows the cart well.
2. Change cart for something with a more incisive top-end. Candidates would include Ortofon 2M Black and AT150ANV. I definitely want to stay MM.
3. Change the arm for something more agile and faster. Possibly a uni-pivot? I do have the possibility of an Odyssey arm from the ever helpful John Gordon.
4. Start over and change the deck, arm and cart. My potential budget is around £1500 for this, after selling various bits of kit.

I am not a fettler, so gear needs to be fairly plug n play or fully fettled in advance - installing a cart is about the limit of my talent here. I want to ideally get a great ex-dem deal as hopefully the deck will be set up to its full potential then. Otherwise it will have to be second-hand.

I enjoy mainly two types of music - classical and classic rock. So my kit needs to be very versatile; sweet and dynamic at the same time!

I am completely open-minded about the best way forward and that includes any brands. Look forward to your suggestions. :)

Hi Julian, you should drop Gaius (Mark) a line on PFM, he sells loads of Linn and Naim gear, think he's got a nice Sondek for sale at the minute.

I have bought vinyl from him and have found his a really good seller.

Tony

[walpurgis]

Only my opinion Julian,

but I suspect an LP12 may give you results rather similar to those you have now.

I'd suggest a Garrard 401/301 or a hefty DD unit with your existing arm. You may find things become rather more dynamic and your Kuzma is definitely up to the job.


Geoff.

[Audioman]

Julian.

Having only heard a Source once I'm convinced it was superior to an LP12.

I think you should ditch the Garrot and invest in a low output MC plus step up. Now if your sound is really dull I would suggest ATOC9 or Ortofon Rhondo Red. The arm is certainly well matched for MC. For MM the 2M Black may well prove a valid alternative

This route is initially the less expensive and traumatic and gives you a starting point to upgrade. Don't think a 401 is going to cure the dullness but certainly give you a more prominent bottom end.

[chelsea]

I'd be playing about with carts before changing decks.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Words you don't often hear together:
"Too much bass? - You'd better get a Garrard 301/401 then".

[Dingdong]

Benz Micro Ace high output and get yer speaker-amp combination sorted out.

[rahman]

I have just acquired a pair of Tannoy Chatsworths which are very promising. Bit too early to make a real judgement on them yet as I haven't got them positioned properly yet.

Get your speakers positioned properly first. Little changes here can make a LOT of difference.

[hifi_dave]

IMO, the whole system (with Charios) is erring on the warm, mellow side of neutral. Put it all together, with speakers up against a wall and there is no wonder it sounds as it does.

You now have Chatsworths, which are helping to turn things round, so you need to take a look at the rest. For starters, experiment with angling the speakers to project the HF at your listening seat. Also, try the effect of raising them from the floor by 6 - 9 inches or so. This will help with floor reflections and get the tweeter at ear level.

A 'brighter' more involving cartridge like the Ortofon 2M Black will crispen and clean things up as will a cable like TQ or Chord Rumour instead of the Cable Talk.

You could try the effect of an Oddysey arm, if it's a loaner but it will be a faff to swop. Which mat are you using by the way ?

After that it might get expensive. A more neutral amp should also help but you will need to try and see.

So many ways to go but you need to break the 'warm' chain. Do it step by step to avoid expensive mistakes.

[Barry]

Hi Julian,

Not familiar with your Garrot cartridge, although I assume it is fitted with a Garrot stylus (Weintz parabolic?).

The Kuzma arm is excellent - I wouldn't ditch that; but having a high effective mass, it may be mismatched to the cartridge.

As others have suggested, first experiment with speaker positioning before you start making changes to the record playing 'front end'.

[phonomac]

Hello Julian,
If you want to stay with MM cartridges and at the same time improve treble and detail - try the Audio Technica AT-155LC. It has a line-contact stylus on a berylium cantilever, and can sound very good indeed.

I just did a test comparison with mine against my AT-OC9/MLII, and it certainly holds its own.

Not familiar with the Stogi, but VE describes it as medium mass so I don't think there would be any problems. I use mine fitted to an Audio Technica AT-1010 arm and it tracks well with no LF resonance problems.

It is now discontinued but second-hand is much better value than an AT150MLX. I have a lightly-used spare; if you want to explore this route drop me a PM.

regards

Angus

[Clive]

Not familiar with your Garrot cartridge, although I assume it is fitted with a Garrot stylus (Weintz parabolic?).
When Dominic grafted mine onto a boron cantilever he reckoned it was an FG2, Garrott call this a MicroScanner but that's just their name for it. We can't be sure but Dom will be a good judge and it's likely that the current makers of the Garrott find it easier to source and FG2.

[Barry]

When Dominic grafted mine onto a boron cantilever he reckoned it was an FG2, Garrott call this a MincroScanner but that's just their name for it. We can't be sure but Dom will be a good judge and it's likely that the current makers of the Garrott find it easier to source and FG2.

Using information provided by vinylengine's data base, your Garrott/Stogi combination will have a LF resonance laying between 8.6 - 10.2Hz, which is ideal. From memory, the Garrott cartridges received very good reviews.

But before you think about changing the cartridge, try experimanting with speaker position and tilt.

[julesd68]

Yes, there's no problem with a technical mismatch re the Garrott - I did the Vinyl Engine resonance calculation before buying.

The Garrott is undoubtedly a very high quality MM cart but I wonder whether the treble is a little too much on the smooth side, which when used with my Charios, was just a little too polite ...

Managed to bag some ideal stands for Tannoys last night on ebay for £20. These will get them raised off the ground 20cm or so, which should make a big difference. I can then make a proper evaluation of the Garrott.

[julesd68]

I think you should ditch the Garrot and invest in a low output MC plus step up.

Hi Paul, this is exactly what I did before acquiring the Garrott! Didn't get on with MC's at all - the ZYX and Ortofon I tried could be sweet enough on my classical lp's but totally lacking in the kind of oomph & drive I need for all the rock lp's.

[Clive]

Hi Julian,

I suspect you've this given your NWA comment: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0213/northwest_analog.htm

The phono stage is also important, I find my two solidstate phonostages work better with the Garrott/NWA than does my valve phono stage. The valve stage works for my London but solidstage is a better match for the Garrott but Dom's work was much more important.

[julesd68]

Yes Clive, I read the NWA article with great interest!

If I do end up deciding that the cart is an issue not sure yet what way to go - there's no way of knowing whether a "pimped" Garrott is going to be better than say, a 2M Black. :scratch:

It's funny, Geoff (Walpurgis) tried his Graham Slee stage in my system a while back and I thought the performance was strangely similar to the P10 - I was expecting the SS stage to present a quite different presentation!

[Clive]

It's funny, Geoff (Walpurgis) tried his Graham Slee stage in my system a while back and I thought the performance was strangely similar to the P10 - I was expecting the SS stage to present a quite different presentation!
Yes, it is surprising that the differences are not as great as you'd imagine. I find a good valve phono stage has more depth both in character and 3D image, mine flows better too. My SS phono stages are more impactful and really pump the bass in a way that extracts the best out of the Garrott. The SS stages are more lively in character too. So it's swing and roundabouts. I also have an AT150MLX, when dialed-in it's excellent too. I think though I prefer my tweaked Garrott. Hard to say vs a 2M Black.

[Andrei]

I don't really know your gear except by reputation (all good - especially the TT), but despite that I do have a recommendation. I suggest you do some semi-serious research on Moving Coil vs Moving Magnet. The advantages of MM are clear but as I understand it the lower mass of a coil means more agility. I think it is easier for a coil to track 10 - 20 khz than a heavier magnet. The high quality of your other components would support the more fastidious requirements of a moving coil cartridge.

[Clive]

I don't know the ages of folks here but there is one other factor. Hearing. There's the theory that once you hearing goes off a little (age-related usually 40+ due to earbug headphones) then the subtlies of MCs at the top-end are not heard and really it's better to try MM as their advantage is still quite obvious. I am talking about good MMs, not cheapUSB deck giveaways.

[walpurgis]

Sorry Clive, but I'd politely say that's nonsense. I'm a long way over forty and can hear every tiny difference to the sound, any change of component makes, especially the difference between MCs and MMs (I have always used both). I have very good MMs, but they have no advantage over MCs (and don't forget Deccas, which are sort of on their own configurationwise).

[Clive]

Sorry Clive, but I'd politely say that's nonsense. I'm a long way over forty and can hear every tiny difference to the sound, any change of component makes, especially the difference between MCs and MMs (I have always used both). I have very good MMs, but they have no advantage over MCs (and don't forget Deccas, which are sort of on their own configurationwise).
Geoff, if you can hear the differences at the very top-end then for your age you have the hearing of a bat.

I would say that MMs and MCs present music differently, but it's not so easy to say one is better than another. IME good MMs are more propulsive and solid sounding. MCs will tend to have a more delicate mid-range. Good MMs can do treble better than many think but MMs are more picky about electrical loading. Many MMs want to see just 100pF but most peoples' arm wire and interconnect and then phono stage will often present more like 300pF. Couple this with the inductive load of some valve phono stages there can be lot than prevents an MMs giving it's best. Also 47k often isn't the correct loading. By a good MM I'm meaning one with a line contact tip attached to at least a boron cantilever.

In comparison to Decca....I've had a London Super Gold, London Jubilee and currently run a London Reference on my 301. On the deck beside this I run a Garrott P77i modified by NWA with a Boron cantilever. I also have an AT150MLX which too is line contact and boron. Considering the massive difference in price it's quite interesting to compare the sound. The MMs easily outdo the London in the bass. The London pulls it back in the mid-range with greater openness and clarity but at the expense of some thinness. The treble quality is harder to call. I'm hard pressed to express a preference between the Reference and P77i, it's that close. The London BTW works best in my system with my valve / LCR phono stage loaded at 33k. The MMs are better with one of my solidstate phono stages, with which I use a short unbroken low-capacitance cable from cartridge to phonostage.

[julesd68]

I would say that MMs and MCs present music differently, but it's not so easy to say one is better than another. IME good MMs are more propulsive and solid sounding. MCs will tend to have a more delicate mid-range.

This is exactly my experience of MM & MC and I think anyone can hear the difference. Simply a case of what works best for you.

Well my Tannoy stands arrived yesterday - best £20 I've spent in a long time - got the drivers at an ideal height now I hope. Doesn't look like I'm going to be able to get a listen till Monday though sadly ... :(