View Full Version : Record cleaning (again)
losenotaminute
17-02-2013, 15:43
I've been looking at RCMs, and would really love to try the Audio Desk Systeme, but at $3,995 I'm not sure it is a great idea.
http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/audio-desk-systeme-rcm/
So today I tried vacuuming an LP with a PC cleaning adapter, which is basically a small soft brush on the end of a hose, attached to a standard vaccuum cleaner. It certainly lifted all of the visible dust. I realise it won't get deep into the grooves with any particles that are stuck to the LP with a bit of grease, but I have some cleaning fluid for any finger marks, which seems to lift the grease quite well.
Has anyone tried the Systeme? I think this is maybe a silly question because anyone who has paid north of £3,000 for an RCM is bound to say it's the best thing since sliced bread.....
Lawrence
Looks very good. Fully automated and ultrasonic too. If I had the thick end of £3K to blow on an RCM it would be that one.
AS far as sucking the dust off the LP with a vacuum - simpler just to use a brush. It is the dirt in the grooves not the dust on top that kills the sound.
losenotaminute
17-02-2013, 16:27
Looks very good. Fully automated and ultrasonic too. If I had the thick end of £3K to blow on an RCM it would be that one.
AS far as sucking the dust off the LP with a vacuum - simpler just to use a brush. It is the dirt in the grooves not the dust on top that kills the sound.
OK, I take the point that it isn't the surface dust that causes the main problem, but the vacuum method does use a brush, and takes the dust away rather than just redistributing it. At least the records look clean :)
Lawrence
I'm afraid I have 'reformed smoker zeal' when it comes to record cleaning. Sorry 'bout that ;)
losenotaminute
17-02-2013, 16:38
I'm afraid I have 'reformed smoker zeal' when it comes to record cleaning. Sorry 'bout that ;)
Oh shit, is smoke bad for records?
Smoke is bad for records in the same way that it is bad for hifi...it can leave horrible deposits and can coat with a nice yellow nicotine coating...
On the record cleaning, I would suggest you experiment with some record cleaning solution (I use the okki nokki stuff for about £8 a bottle mixed with distilled water and a drop of isopropyl alcohol- total cost about £20) which you can brush onto a record and then vacuum off. Most record cleaning machines are simply elegant ways of vacuuming (although I think the one in your OP works by flinging crud off during revolutions). The differences are how this is implemented and the size/noise of the different machines. I have a new Okki Nokki and think its great.
Oh shit, is smoke bad for records?
Not if you smoke roll-ups. Or Cigars. Just stay away from the hard stuff like B&H or Lambert & Desperate :D
losenotaminute
17-02-2013, 16:57
Smoke is bad for records in the same way that it is bad for hifi...it can leave horrible deposits and can coat with a nice yellow nicotine coating...
On the record cleaning, I would suggest you experiment with some record cleaning solution (I use the okki nokki stuff for about £8 a bottle mixed with distilled water and a drop of isopropyl alcohol- total cost about £20) which you can brush onto a record and then vacuum off. Most record cleaning machines are simply elegant ways of vacuuming (although I think the one in your OP works by flinging crud off during revolutions). The differences are how this is implemented and the size/noise of the different machines. I have a new Okki Nokki and think its great.
I have some 'Clear Groove' solution which I saw recommended on the interweb a while back. Good for removing finger marks but I worry a little about deposits so only use it if there is a visible mark.
I have been vacuuming a few records this afternoon, it seems to be very effective. The brush attachment is about 3cm wide, and quite soft, but you can get into the grooves and it leaves the surface looking perfectly clean. I place the record onto a soft lint free record cleaning cloth first and clean in line with the grooves, applying a small amount of pressure. After cleaning there are noticeably fewer pops and clicks.
I do realise smoke is probably bad for hifi equipment and records, but you can't seriously expect me to give up cigars? They are one of the real pleasures in life!
Lawrence
I do realise smoke is probably bad for hifi equipment and records, but you can't seriously expect me to give up cigars? They are one of the real pleasures in life!
I also appreciate that any long term benefit to your records/kit will be outweighed by your diminished enjoyment without cigar! No point in having all the kit in the world if you can't sit still and instead twitch or pace up and down without the fix...
I made my own RCM for peanuts. You don't have to spend a fortune to get similar results to the BEST RCMs, which are a silly price.
Old TT bought for £40 (Revolver TT) and electric lead removed, and belt removed.
Nooks and cranny nozzle from a canister vacuum cleaner adapted by cutting a 2mm wide slot along its length and carbon brush pads (from Mobile Fidelity via the Bay) cut to 5mm wide strips and stuck (self adhesive) each side of the slot.
Focus DIY store mini sanding tool (small plastic tool with a handle and a rubber pad) adapted by gluing a carbon brush pad to the base.
Finally, some IPA (99.99% pure lab grade) mixed 25% by volume with distilled water and a 500ml lab squeezy dispensing bottle (with a small hose that dispenses when the bottle is squeezed) filled with the solution and a few millilitres of Wetting agent (Ilfotol) added.
Simply put an LP on the donor TT (I have a cork mat on mine), spin the platter by hand and squirt about 30 to 50 ml of solution onto the LP surface. Use the carbon pad to scrub the LP surface (quarter turn at a time and several times back and forth) before switching the vacuum cleaner on and carefully brush/vacuum solution off. End of the nozzle has a 3mm hole in it to allow an air bypass to draw air across the inside of the slot which has the effect of evaporating the solution off the LP surface as well as it being sucked off via the slot. As IPA is soluble in water, everything is removed from the LP surface. The carbon brushes get right into the base of the grooves, as does the IPA (the wetting agent allows low surface tension but also foams up upon agitation lifting out the muck to the LP surface).
I compared the results with some LPs which had been cleaned on Monks RCM and the DIY effort was every bit as good. Total cost was way under £100 for everything (already had a wet and dry vac which I use in the garage and workshop).
I've been looking at RCMs, and would really love to try the Audio Desk Systeme, but at $3,995 I'm not sure it is a great idea.
http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/audio-desk-systeme-rcm/
:stalks: Now I just think they read DIYAudio back in 2008 and then thought they'd make some cash out of daft audiophiles.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/120394-i-made-myself-record-cleaner.html
or
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/218276-my-version-ultrasonic-record-cleaner.html
Make your own.
:stalks: Now I just think they read DIYAudio back in 2008 and then thought they'd make some cash out of daft audiophiles.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/120394-i-made-myself-record-cleaner.html
or
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/218276-my-version-ultrasonic-record-cleaner.html
Make your own.
You're having a laugh, Nat, of course. Two engineers have borrowed my Moth RCM. They have both looked into duplicating one for themselves. They couldn't do it for less than the price of the kit version.
You're having a laugh, Nat, of course. Two engineers have borrowed my Moth RCM. They have both looked into duplicating one for themselves. They couldn't do it for less than the price of the kit version.
Did you read the forum threads via my links? i don't think you looked at them..
They are both ultrasonic cleaning machines with a motor attached to rotate the vinyl.
In the first case, he uses a cheap chinese bath which costs about £120 new (less secondhand). Sorting out a spit type rotating thing for the vinyl isn't going to cost much more, hell, rotate it by hand on a pencil !
The thread is from 2008 and there have been many people saying how clean their vinyl is since with no problems regarding the ultrasonics.
The second, the OP intentionally has thrown more money at it, about £600. Far, FAR from $3995 that is being asked for this commercial product and the research is there in the public domain so I doubt it has cost them much in R&D.
Added: It's one thing to try to replicate a mass produced article and one where the maker is getting parts at way below the cost to the consumer but it is another to follow a completely different route using readily available, cheap machinary with small modifications.
Just looking again at the second thread I linked to, it was a $500 machine with about $115 added in other parts, so more like less than £400.
Here's his before and after test on some cheap 80s thin vinyl:
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but please not this one with steam!
d6OjtKUZ048
"There have been some records that experienced minor warping..." Duh!
I've had a decent Polti steam cleaner for years sitting in the cupboard - I might dig it out and start experimenting. :D
I've had a decent Polti steam cleaner for years sitting in the cupboard - I might dig it out and start experimenting. :D
Does it have the special record cleaning attachement?
JazzBones
22-02-2013, 15:02
I've had a decent Polti steam cleaner for years sitting in the cupboard - I might dig it out and start experimenting. :D
Paul, whatever you do,DON'T HAVE THE STEAM OUTLET NOZZLE TOO CLOSE TO THE vinyl, its the action of the steam vapour that is used for cleaning whilst rotating the horizontal record for cleaning more or less at the same time. A spinning wooden lazy Susan from Ikea approx UK£5.00p with a rubber platter mat is what I use, this is obviously rotated by hand in conjunction with an RCM for final clean and dry. If you wear glasses then try cleaning the lenses from a kettle after boiling your cuppa, towel lenses dry after this will give you an idea how the steam clean method works.
losenotaminute
03-03-2013, 09:52
I posted a week or so back about using a pc cleaning attachment nozzle on a vacuum to clean records. It sounds a bit Heath Robinson, but I think I'm onto something.
This is the type of thing I'm using (the small soft brush attachment):
http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/130702156334?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&adtype=pla&crdt=0
If you place the LP on a table a gently vacuum in line with the grooves, it's remarkably effective at getting rid of the dust. Obviously not as good an RCM, but a lot cheaper.
I would try wet cleaning the record then using the vacuum to simultaneously dry the record and suck up any crud that you have released into suspension. You should get a much deeper clean that way. If that works then you really will be onto something. Try with a Val Doonican LP or something equally sacrificial at first of course :)
losenotaminute
03-03-2013, 10:22
I would try wet cleaning the record then using the vacuum to simultaneously dry the record and suck up any crud that you have released into suspension. You should get a much deeper clean that way. If that works then you really will be onto something. Try with a Val Doonican LP or something equally sacrificial at first of course :)
No doubt that method would be more effective but I'm not sure my vacuum cleaner would cope very well with too much moisture, it's just a cheapo Hoover. It's more of a faff to do a wet clean when a reasonably quick once over with the brush lifts off most of the crap that has collected over the years.
I tried on some old LPs first to make sure that no damage was done using the brush, and as far as I can tell the vinyl is tough enough not to get marked but I guess there is a risk that overly enthusiastic brushing might do some harm.
Yes good point about the moisture - not considered that. As for damage I think it would depend how abrasive the brush is. Possibly wrapping the end of the nozzle in felt might allay any fears? You'd have replace the felt every so often though. Anyway just a thought.
Does it have the special record cleaning attachement?
I don't think it does Nat, I wasn't aware they make one :D
Paul, whatever you do,DON'T HAVE THE STEAM OUTLET NOZZLE TOO CLOSE TO THE vinyl, its the action of the steam vapour that is used for cleaning whilst rotating the horizontal record for cleaning more or less at the same time. A spinning wooden lazy Susan from Ikea approx UK£5.00p with a rubber platter mat is what I use, this is obviously rotated by hand in conjunction with an RCM for final clean and dry. If you wear glasses then try cleaning the lenses from a kettle after boiling your cuppa, towel lenses dry after this will give you an idea how the steam clean method works.
Thanks Ron, I'll try it out on some unwanted vinyl first. How does it work for you - any improvement on the more traditional cleaning methods?
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