New fuse box

[brian2957]

I was trying to think of a catchy title for this thread , but in all honesty the subject matter is pretty boring although the outcome may be of interest to some here.
A couple of months ago my shower packed up and I had to buy a new one . As a true audiophile ( OCD sufferer ) I decided to buy an all singing all dancing top of the range high powered jobby . When the electrician came to fit it he informed me that the cable feeding the shower from the fuse box wasn't thick enough , and was in fact substandard . He also informed me that my old ( fuse-wired ) fuse box was ' falling to bits ' . A bit like me after 3 months nightshift :)
What's this got to do with hifi I hear you ask . Well last Saturday the electrician came to rewire the shower and fit a new breaker fuse box and after a couple of hours the job was done . Now I know from past experience that mains cables make a difference to my system , so I was mildly hopeful of an improvement in SQ.
I was not to be disappointed . On firing up my system I was treated to a very audible improvement in all areas of SQ. Couldn't quite believe how good my system is sounding . Furthermore the system SQ seems to have improved as the week has progressed . Do fuse boxes burn in ? :scratch:
Anyway this is one of the best upgrades I have ever made to my system and I'm a very happy chappie :cool:
Anybody else had a similar experience ?

[Richiebuoy]

Nice one..... could it be that you have a much better shower that cleans your ears out better ? ......:ner:

[chris@panteg]

This is timely ,as I have an old Wylex plug in fuse box ,I upgraded the fuses to mcb's but I think its time to get it done properly and get a new consumer unit ! Wylex or MK ?

[AlexM]

Roy K. Riches (sp?) is the only person I have found that is obsessive enough to have auditioned different consumer units, and the one he rated most highly is made by Memera 1000/2000 range, made by Eaton.

I have two, and they are certainly very good - no nuisance trips or other problems as I have experienced with some cheaper makes. It sounds very good too as I put in four MK double sockets, each on it's own circuit using 8mm sq T&E cable while I was redoing the lounge. Possibly overkill, but it wasn't too expensive as I had the floor up in the lounge. There is certainly no buzzes or clicks from appliances on the other ring mains and the noise floor does seems to be lower since this work.

Cheers,
A.

[chris@panteg]

Be happy with a 10 way MK with RCD , need to find a decent sparky .

[brian2957]

My new fuse box is a Wylex . I'm fairly sure that the MK will be just as good . Unfortunately the layout of my house makes it fairly difficult to fit a dedicated circuit for my hifi . Maybe one for the future.

[chris@panteg]

My new fuse box is a Wylex . I'm fairly sure that the MK will be just as good . Unfortunately the layout of my house makes it fairly difficult to fit a dedicated circuit for my hifi . Maybe one for the future.

Same here Brian , my system is in the attic room , so would be fairly costly to have a ring put in but I just want to update my CU , can I ask how much it cost you and were there any issues , like earthing etc ?

[wee tee cee]

I had the meter changed from an old rotating disk job to a new digital type by nice man from Scottish power recently......noticeable improvement sonically.
Free of charge to boot! the guy did look at me strangely when asked which replacement would make the hi fi sound best.....think he felt sort of sorry for me!

[chris@panteg]

I had the meter changed from an old rotating disk job to a new digital type by nice man from Scottish power recently......noticeable improvement sonically.
Free of charge to boot! the guy did look at me strangely when asked which replacement would make the hi fi sound best.....think he felt sort of sorry for me!

I find that hard to believe ? Changing the CU perhaps because I'm losing the plug in mcb's which need the pins cleaning 2 or 3 times a year but the meter ?

[brian2957]

Can't give you specific prices Chris . The electrician supplied the fuse box and approximately 8m of 10mm twin and earth . He fitted the fuse box and installed the new cable to the shower . Total price was £280 . No earthing issues that I'm aware of .I don't think I could have got a similar upgrade to SQ for the same money . I believe this is one of those ' can't get it by any other means ' upgrades. In my opinion every little helps , so I think Tonys experience may be well within the realms of possibility.

[chris@panteg]

Can't give you specific prices Chris . The electrician supplied the fuse box and approximately 8m of 10mm twin and earth . He fitted the fuse box and installed the new cable to the shower . Total price was £280 . I don't think I could have got a similar upgrade to SQ for the same money . I believe this is one of those ' can't get it by any other means ' upgrades. In my opinion every little helps , so I think Tonys experience may be well within the realms of possibility.

Thanks , think I'll get three or four quotes and take it from there .

[brian2957]

Good luck mate . I was listening to my system tonight before work and IMHO it's a no brainer . Sounding very good indeed. Please keep us posted Chris.

[chris@panteg]

Good luck mate . I was listening to my system tonight before work and IMHO it's a no brainer . Sounding very good indeed. Please keep us posted Chris.

Will do Brian , I should have done this five years ago when I had some bonding done with the new shower and bath , think I'll just go with a Wylex board like yourself , after doing some research , MK aren't what they used to be it seems ?

[Sonority]

Have had the same thing done in my listening room, except I had a seperate CU fitted for the hifi and kept the house on its own :)

A fair bit of the 'upgrade in sound' can probably be attributed to the fact that the incoming fuse is removed and replaced - which (obviously) has a cleaning action on the contacts. In my case (again) the sparky thought I was bonkers asking if I could clean the fuse contacts before he replaced it back in the holder :)

If you want to go the 'whole hog' say your having a 10 - 12 Kw shower fitted and ask for a 100A incoming fuse - lower the resistance that last bit ;)

Your correct in saying no C/U's are the same as they used to be - they are way safer, and in some instances, much better!

Don't go thinking you need to have 32A mcb's fitted in every line of the HiFi feeds- internally they are all the same, just the measuing coils are differnt :)

Just my 2$c

[chris@panteg]

Have had the same thing done in my listening room, except I had a seperate CU fitted for the hifi and kept the house on its own :)

A fair bit of the 'upgrade in sound' can probably be attributed to the fact that the incoming fuse is removed and replaced - which (obviously) has a cleaning action on the contacts. In my case (again) the sparky thought I was bonkers asking if I could clean the fuse contacts before he replaced it back in the holder :)

If you want to go the 'whole hog' say your having a 10 - 12 Kw shower fitted and ask for a 100A incoming fuse - lower the resistance that last bit ;)

Your correct in saying no C/U's are the same as they used to be - they are way safer, and in some instances, much better!

Don't go thinking you need to have 32A mcb's fitted in every line of the HiFi feeds- internally they are all the same, just the measuing coils are differnt :)

Just my 2$c

Yes I am going to be asking for a 100 amp fuse , currently 60 amp , I only have two ring mains so only need two 32 amp mcb's , just keeping it a simple set up .

[daytona600]

give the fuse endcaps a polish ,deoxit . lawson ME/MFamp good , uk made fuses

[brian2957]

Thanks for the advice on fuses today Scott and thanks for the hospitality . Both myself and Gary thoroughly enjoyed our visit to yours and listening to your amazing dem system . Bit of an education for me really from a very helpful and knowledgeable dealer . The equipment you loaned us will be put through its paces in the next week or so . I will report back on my findings when I have some time. :)

[Martinh]

Can't give you specific prices Chris . The electrician supplied the fuse box and approximately 8m of 10mm twin and earth . He fitted the fuse box and installed the new cable to the shower . Total price was £280...

Bl@@dy h@ll, that's cheap! Probably looking at twice that or more down here in Hampshire. :rolleyes:

[daytona600]

good to meet you brian , glad you had a nice day

[realysm42]

To the op, did you use any kind of mains filtering/conditioning before/after the job?

[brian2957]

No Martin , nothing like that.

[Martinh]

A good exercise would have been to measure the earth loop impedence value (Z) at the sockets next to the hifi before and after the upgrade.

This gives the total impedence of the circuit, including the supply to the house (I.e.) back to the substation. The lower this value is, the better.

There are max values for this, which depends upon the type and rating of the mcbs in the Consumer unit. The lower the value, the more current will flow under fault conditions and therefore the MCB is sure to trip out.

Unfortunately, you can't measure thus with a std multimeter, you need an expensive piece of kit to do it.

With a ring main, there are many connections in the line before you get to your hifi sockets, so a dedicated radial circuit is bound to be better all round.

Cheers,

[brian2957]

TBH with you Martin , if I was capable of doing that I could probably have fitted the fuse box myself :lol: The price I paid did seem like a bit of a bargain . It was my nephews mate who did the job . I gave him a little bit extra in the end.:)

[Barry]

A good exercise would have been to measure the earth loop impedence value (Z) at the sockets next to the hifi before and after the upgrade.

This gives the total impedence of the circuit, including the supply to the house (I.e.) back to the substation. The lower this value is, the better.

There are max values for this, which depends upon the type and rating of the mcbs in the Consumer unit. The lower the value, the more current will flow under fault conditions and therefore the MCB is sure to trip out.

Unfortunately, you can't measure thus with a std multimeter, you need an expensive piece of kit to do it.

With a ring main, there are many connections in the line before you get to your hifi sockets, so a dedicated radial circuit is bound to be better all round.

Cheers,

The source impedance can be easily measured using a voltmeter. I have done so at a couple of sockets on the ring main in my house and obtain a figure of 0.20 - 0.25 Ohm.

This is lower than the typical IEC figure.

[Martinh]

The source impedance can be easily measured using a voltmeter. I have done so at a couple of sockets on the ring main in my house and obtain a figure of 0.20 - 0.25 Ohm.

This is lower than the typical IEC figure.

Yes, this is a useful test, but its not the same, as you are only measuring resistance of the conductors from the fuse board to the socket only. The loop impedence test is done live :eek: and tests the impedence of the whole circuit, including outside of the house.

Other tests include checking for the correct polarity, continuity of the ring main and correct earthing. You would be amazed at how many installations have faults on them which only show up using the correct testing methods and equipment.

[Barry]

Yes, this is a useful test, but its not the same, as you are only measuring resistance of the conductors from the fuse board to the socket only. The loop impedence test is done live :eek: and tests the impedence of the whole circuit, including outside of the house.

Other tests include checking for the correct polarity, continuity of the ring main and correct earthing. You would be amazed at how many installations have faults on them which only show up using the correct testing methods and equipment.

The method I use is done live and is a loop impedance test, measuring the impedance back to the substation.

I have also checked the earth - neutral resistance (< 0.2 Ohm) and offset potential (0.25V AC, 0V DC), as well as the DC offset on the mains (-18mV).

[Martinh]

The method I use is done live and is a loop impedance test, measuring the impedance back to the substation.

I have also checked the earth - neutral resistance (< 0.2 Ohm) and offset potential (0.25V AC, 0V DC), as well as the DC offset on the mains (-18mV).

I'm intrigued, how can you perform a loop impedence test with a multimeter?

[Barry]

I'm intrigued, how can you perform a loop impedence test with a multimeter?

I'm reluctant to explain exactly how this is done, since dealing with live and exposed mains voltages is hazardous and should not be attempted unless you know exactly what you are doing.

Suffice it to say, the source impedance can be derived by noting the voltage drop for a given load.

If you are interested, I could explain in detail via a PM.

[apollo]

To the OP: I will be interested to know how old was the fuse box which was replaced. Sorry if it was mentioned somewhere in the thread and I missed it.

I had exactly the same experience a few months back, where I replaced a 30+ year old fuse box with a spanking new one.. and was immediately rewarded with audible improvement, mostly in dynamics. My take on this is that the corrosion and oxide layer developed in the switch contacts created a high resistance to the current flow, which was removed by the new fuse box.

Did not check for burn in effects though.. :hmm:

[brian2957]

My fuse box was a similar age to yours Apollo . The upgrade in SQ achieved by fitting the new fuse box was far from subtle.

[apollo]

The upgrade in SQ achieved by fitting the new fuse box was far from subtle.

My thoughts exactly.

In fact, the improvements made me start the process of setting up a dedicated mains spur for the audio system, straight from the fuse box bypassing everything else in the house. Will probably use some good but not too expensive three core shielded cable for that purpose.

[brian2957]

Yes , I may go down that route myself . Might be a bit of a nightmare in my house though.

[chris@panteg]

Just a thought , your old fuse boxes , they had plug in rewirable fuses ? Did you ever take them out for a clean now and then ? I changed mine for plug in MCB's and clean the pins twice or maybe three times a year .

[brian2957]

Yes Chris . I marked the fuse for my system and removed it periodically and gave it a clean with Deoxit . Worked a treat IMO.

[chris@panteg]

Yes Chris . I marked the fuse for my system and removed it periodically and gave it a clean with Deoxit . Worked a treat IMO.

I won't miss doing that little job , can't wait to get it done .

[brian2957]

Telling you mate , if you don't get a noticeable improvement in SQ I'll be very surprised.

[chris@panteg]

Yes Chris . I marked the fuse for my system and removed it periodically and gave it a clean with Deoxit . Worked a treat IMO.

Did you squirt some into the sockets as well ? I did mine with servisol , good stuff , you can see the tarnish disappear instantly .

[chris@panteg]

Quick update , found a very good and friendly leccy via a colleague at work , and am having a new wylex board 100 amp with rcd fitted , tested and certified in the next few weeks ? Possibly the Saturday after next , not sure yet .

All for 210 pounds sterling , it's good to know people and a really nice chap too.

[brian2957]

Excellent Chris , please keep us posted . Thanks.

[Mark Grant]

All for 210 pounds sterling ,

Bargain :)

While the electric is off ask the electrician to clean and remake the connections in the sockets your hifi is plugged in to. (And any others on the same ring main circuit)

[brian2957]

Good advice Mark and yes , this is a bargain at this price.

[chris@panteg]

Bargain :)

While the electric is off ask the electrician to clean and remake the connections in the sockets your hifi is plugged in to. (And any others on the same ring main circuit)

Thanks Mark , yes funny enough I was thinking of this , he might think I'm mad ? Probably true lol , perhaps for ' health and safety ' reasons .

Cleaning the main fuse , seems a good idea as well .

[brian2957]

Every little helps Chris . Give him a can od Deoxit and then see the look on his face. Tis a strange hobby indeed , this one. :lol: But worth it when there's so much pleasure to be gleaned from it.

[chris@panteg]

Every little helps Chris . Give him a can od Deoxit and then see the look on his face. Tis a strange hobby indeed , this one. :lol: But worth it when there's so much pleasure to be gleaned from it.

Got some servisol and isopropanol , will that do ? I'm just happy it's getting done at a great price really .

[brian2957]

Never used it mate . I just know Deoxit works . Sorry cant be of more help.

[chris@panteg]

New wylex board now fitted and tested !! All good , he fitted a new and correct main earth clamp to the incoming mains + RCBO's to the lighting and boiler circuits .

RCD protecting the rings and cooker circuit , he also fitted new meter tails and earth cable , top quality installation for £225 , he decided to fit the RCBO's for maximum safety which pushed up the price but I'm very happy .

What's it done for the hifi ? Currently listening to some ceedees , early indications are it was well worth doing :)

[MikeMusic]

New wylex board now fitted and tested !! All good , he fitted a new and correct main earth clamp to the incoming mains + RCBO's to the lighting and boiler circuits .

RCD protecting the rings and cooker circuit , he also fitted new meter tails and earth cable , top quality installation for £225 , he decided to fit the RCBO's for maximum safety which pushed up the price but I'm very happy .

What's it done for the hifi ? Currently listening to some ceedees , early indications are it was well worth doing :)

Joining this one late

Good news, probably for everyone is that the best is yet to come.
When we had the house refurbed all the electrics were replaced.
We lived in what was the garage extended into a 1 bed flat.
Sound in there was a moving target as I was tinkering away with upgrades.
A few times there were improvements due to bigger fuse and improved earthing- this was good and a by product
Moved back in to the main house and thought the sound was ok, but not as good as it had been.
Few weeks later it came nicely on song - no upgrades at all
I assume the new boards and cable burned in

[chris@panteg]

Joining this one late

Good news, probably for everyone is that the best is yet to come.
When we had the house refurbed all the electrics were replaced.
We lived in what was the garage extended into a 1 bed flat.
Sound in there was a moving target as I was tinkering away with upgrades.
A few times there were improvements due to bigger fuse and improved earthing- this was good and a by product
Moved back in to the main house and thought the sound was ok, but not as good as it had been.
Few weeks later it came nicely on song - no upgrades at all
I assume the new boards and cable burned in

Could be ? Inside the board there are some chunky live and neutral cables pre-fitted + the new meter tails , oh and it's 100 amp rated compared to the old 60 amp board .

[brian2957]

Yup , I think mines' got better over a period of time . I know this is a little off topic but a few of us had a little bake off at Garys ( Gazjam ) yesterday . Ali Tait brought along a balanced mains transformer which we plugged in after a while . I have to say that this was one of the biggest improvements in SQ I have ever heard in any hifi system , and I've heard quite s few. This was Alis own build but he recommended something like this :
http://www.airlinktransformers.com/standard_balanced_power_supplies/61-BPS3110S.html
For me this, or an AG1500 / 500 , will be my next upgrade . It overshadowed , by a very large margin any other changes or upgrades which I heard on the day.

[chris@panteg]

Yup , I think mines' got better over a period of time . I know this is a little off topic but a few of us had a little bake off at Garys ( Gazjam ) yesterday . Ali Tait brought along a balanced mains transformer which we plugged in after a while . I have to say that this was one of the biggest improvements in SQ I have ever heard in any hifi system , and I've heard quite s few. This was Alis own build but he recommended something like this :
http://www.airlinktransformers.com/standard_balanced_power_supplies/61-BPS3110S.html
For me this, or an AG1500 / 500 , will be my next upgrade . It overshadowed , by a very large margin any other changes or upgrades which I heard on the day.

Makes sense , I remember a Greek audiophile stating that good electricity is 50% of the performance , is that so ?

[brian2957]

Judging by yesterdays experience I would have to agree . It was a bit of a revelation when we plugged the balanced unit in Chris. So much so that all other upgrades are on hold until I've purchased either a balanced unit or a Power Inspired AG 1500 or AG500.

[chris@panteg]

Judging by yesterdays experience I would have to agree . It was a bit of a revelation when we plugged the balanced unit in Chris. So much so that all other upgrades are on hold until I've purchased either a balanced unit or a Power Inspired AG 1500 or AG500.

Damn it Brian do I have to start saving for one myself now ? I think you've convinced me .

Currently using a Belkin pureav 6 way block and CD replay has never been as good for me ,
I briefly put the MCRU block back in but still prefer the Belkin ?

[brian2957]

I use the same Belkin unit Chris . Amp is plugged straight into the wall socket . I use Lapp cable for everything except the amp , which uses an Isotek mains cable. My system is broadly similar to Garys , using a server , a valve amp , and more or less the same cables . Incidentally Gary was using a PF30 in his system . I must point out that results from either of these units may differ depending on how good ( or bad ) your mains supply is to start off with . However the improvement was so large in Garys system that I'm convinced that either of these units cannot fail to provide a substantial improvement in SQ . Please keep an eye open for posts from Gary and Ali on the forum regarding yesterdays adventures :eyebrows: . We all heard the same improvements in SQ. When I purchase either one of these I will post on the results.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Brian , I'm now replacing all the sockets with new MK logic plus , took one out today and it was in a grotty all state ! Full of dust and a bit coroded though still working ok , maybe further improvements to come ?

[brian2957]

Were they switched sockets Chris ? BTW the MK logic sockets are excellent IMO.

[chris@panteg]

Were they switched sockets Chris ? BTW the MK logic sockets are excellent IMO.

Yeah , the ones I have fitted for both my systems are MK unswitched types and in good condition , but two double sockets on the same ring are in the kitchen , the cable recesses had gone a manky green :eek:

I'm just going to replace the lot now ! 30 years old so not so surprising .

[Mark Grant]

Well worth swapping them all if they are 30 years old and they are cheap as chips even for MK quality.

Clean the bare copper cable ends with contact cleaner, IPA or caig deoxit etc and remember to test each socket when you have the power back on with a Martindale or similar socket tester.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Ddiy&field-keywords=socket+tester

[brian2957]

Yeah , the ones I have fitted for both my systems are MK unswitched types and in good condition , but two double sockets on the same ring are in the kitchen , the cable recesses had gone a manky green :eek:

I'm just going to replace the lot now ! 30 years old so not so surprising .

I would say that you should get an audible improvement here Chris .

[Ali Tait]

Not dissing MK, I use them on the balanced power supply, but I've read the quality is not what it was now they are made in China.

[chris@panteg]

Not dissing MK, I use them on the balanced power supply, but I've read the quality is not what it was now they are made in China.

Hi Ali , well it says very clearly made in UK on the back of the sockets .

Makes a nice change and quality seems very good :)

I would say the 13 amp plugs are not what they used to be though .

[chris@panteg]

Well worth swapping them all if they are 30 years old and they are cheap as chips even for MK quality.

Clean the bare copper cable ends with contact cleaner, IPA or caig deoxit etc and remember to test each socket when you have the power back on with a Martindale or similar socket tester.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Ddiy&field-keywords=socket+tester

Thanks Mark , good advice and I do a have reasonable quality tester , I used some servisol and isopropanol , its frustrating because there is no give in the cables ,set in very tight .

[Ali Tait]

Cool, maybe there are some still made here, I'll have to check mine. Where did you buy yours?

[chris@panteg]

I would say that you should get an audible improvement here Chris .

Cheers Brian , any improvement would be most welcome :)

Did another socket just now , not as bad condition , another 8 to do .

Upward facing cable entries are the problem , loads of dust and bits of plaster inside , a mix of old Volex and Crabtree sockets from 1984 .

The old Wylex Fuseboard was smothered in dust and crap , no rear cover and a flimsy wooden frame .

Really wished I did this a few years back but oh well :)

[chris@panteg]

Cool, maybe there are some still made here, I'll have to check mine. Where did you buy yours?

Local B&Q Ali , £3.98 for a double and £2.99 for a single , they seem nice quality and the earth terminal is at the center ,which seems better to me , older sockets are always on the left or right .

[Ali Tait]

Yep, same place I got mine.

[chris@panteg]

I would say that you should get an audible improvement here Chris .

You were right Brian , I've felt my main system especially has been underperforming for some time , this could be why ?

Still got three sockets to sort out , but its sounding good .

[brian2957]

Glad to hear you're getting an improvement in SQ . Every little helps mate :)