View Full Version : DACs
Richiebuoy
12-02-2013, 18:54
Are DAC's worth it ? I have the Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD player which I'm told (but I really dont know) has a good onboard DAC so is it worth getting a specialist DAC ?
Depends what you want. DACs do make a difference but if you happy with you sound do you really want to change your approach
How are you thinking of using a DAC
Plenty of DACs out there that your a3.2 CD will beat, and plenty that it won't. As John says it's up to what you want? What Linn amp are you using & is there anything about your current sound that you want to improve?
DACs generally give more bang for buck as they're much more reliable (almost always CD transports that die first), and as an investment I'd always go for DAC over CD player. This isn't to say that there aren't a lot of stunning standalone units that'll smoke most DACs!
The difference in dacs sq wise is quite small in reality esp in the £200-600 price bracket.
A recent dac bake off over at pfm found little difference between a Benchmark DAC1, CA Dacmagic, V-dac, Audiolab MDAC and a cheapo Derek Shek NOS job from years ago once they were level matched.
I think the results were pretty set in stone I not want to get into testing but to be honest with the methodology of testing I am not surprised by the results on PFM Others including myself have been on bake offs where there been a noticeable difference between DACS.
StanleyB
12-02-2013, 20:48
It depends what you want from a DAC. Based on what customers tell me there are two main groups of listener requirements. One wants accurate pace, rhythm and timing with excellent instruments and vocal separation. The other wants a nice warm (some say analogue) sound with a wide soundstage.
I often see people stick a price on a DAC to try to quantify its ability. Those are the misguided buyers or commentators, and easy prey to retailers and manufacturers looking for a good margin. Once you know which category of listener you are in, you can then select DACs with those attributes to try out. I regularly get customers buying my DAC first and then tell me they want a warmer/colder/more neutral sound (make your pick which one you are after). If they knew in advance what kind of sound they are after it would be so much more helpful.
This brings me to the initial question. A CD player is limited to 16/44.1 WAV. You won't be able to enjoy many other audio formats and bitrates/frequencies with a DAC. If you are happy with that choice then so be it. But if you want more than 16/44.1 WAV then a DAC should be the next thing on your wish list.
always liked the 24 bit sound , meridian 563 sound ,so musical , as has been said , what do you want from a dac ? , bake off then listen to a few , (without looking the specs up) will ultimately be the answer
always liked the 24 bit sound , meridian 563 sound ,so musical , as has been said , what do you want from a dac ? , bake off then listen to a few , (without looking the specs up) will ultimately be the answer
Am not so sure if that's the 24 bit sound as much as Meridian making bloody good digital stuff!
got a 563 , in use daily , would never , ever , ever part with it , depends how you like your sampling , musical and foot tapping , or Analytical , the farther up the scale you go the more you lose in music , all imho of course
I bought a 2nd hand nos dac which made a huge improvement over my meridian cdp - it went from flat, dull and boring to a more 3d like and interesting presentation. I've now had it for at least 4 years with no urge to change.
It's worth trying a few imo to see what floats your boat but don't expect differences to be huge.
which merridian ?
I bought a 2nd hand nos dac which made a huge improvement over my meridian cdp - it went from flat, dull and boring to a more 3d like and interesting presentation. I've now had it for at least 4 years with no urge to change.
It's worth trying a few imo to see what floats your boat but don't expect differences to be huge.
Richiebuoy
15-02-2013, 18:04
Thanks for all the replys on this and I have to say I was a bit surprised at the comments, with one or two exceptions most have commented about 'different' sounds rather than quality, I guess its a bit like speakers once you get past the 'budget' and 'look good' ones its down to personal preference.
Apart from the MF cd player my system is a Promitheus TVC feeding a Linn Klout into (now) Kef 105 speakers. I like the sound of my system so I dont think a DAC is for me, but I guess like most I'm always looking for better sound quality.
Thanks for all the replys on this and I have to say I was a bit surprised at the comments, with one or two exceptions most have commented about 'different' sounds rather than quality, I guess its a bit like speakers once you get past the 'budget' and 'look good' ones its down to personal preference.
Apart from the MF cd player my system is a Promitheus TVC feeding a Linn Klout into (now) Kef 105 speakers. I like the sound of my system so I dont think a DAC is for me, but I guess like most I'm always looking for better sound quality.
Buy a squeezebox touch and a regulated linear power supply and you will be surprised. Rip your cd's onto a pc then transfer them to a 64gb sd card or similar, stick it in the touch, voila no more cd player. The dac inside the touch is pretty good as long as you get rid of the nasty wall wart plug that comes with it.
awkwardbydesign
20-02-2013, 19:58
I bought a 2nd hand nos dac which made a huge improvement over my meridian cdp - it went from flat, dull and boring to a more 3d like and interesting presentation. I've now had it for at least 4 years with no urge to change.
It's worth trying a few imo to see what floats your boat but don't expect differences to be huge.
I use a transport (Meridian 200), so without a DAC it would be rather quiet!
A Teradak Chameleon NOS DAC; 16 TDA1543 DAC chips, no output chips, capacitor coupled at the moment (Russian PIO + Teflons), but just bought some Lundahl transformers to replace them. So, yes, I believe a good DAC can make a difference.
The problem is that 99% of DACs do sound just about the same. However there are DACs out there that easily give high-end analogue rigs a run for their money and improve in many ways.
The problem is that 99% of DACs do sound just about the same. However there are DACs out there that easily give high-end analogue rigs a run for their money and improve in many ways.
what a load of poppycock :)
StanleyB
26-02-2013, 08:11
:).
It reminded me of a customer with a Sonos system who spent a whole month trying out a Caiman Gatorized Caiman, and a TC-7520 but could hear no difference with hires 96KHz audio files. I reckon not many people can spot the reason for that even though all the clues are in there in the first sentence. The same person mentioned on the net that all three DACs were the same soundwise and that it was a waste of money buying the more expensive one.
what a load of poppycock :)
Not sure Dave, I think I would agree with the post you quoted, the important part was "99%" and "just about the same", not "they all sound the same", there are loads of DAC's out there that sound more alike than different,
StanleyB
26-02-2013, 08:34
I would disagree Nick. There is no way that 99% of designers can make their DAC sound just as good or just as bad. A minor change in PCB layout or the use of a different cap or audio opamp can make a huge difference.
For me the difference is in detail and bass when I heard a few different ones together in the same system
Ali Tait
26-02-2013, 09:19
I would disagree Nick. There is no way that 99% of designers can make their DAC sound just as good or just as bad. A minor change in PCB layout or the use of a different cap or audio opamp can make a huge difference.
I think what Nick means is that there is little between most dacs, not that there is no difference, and having compared many at more than one Owston, I'd have to agree. There is far less of a difference between most than there is between,say, two different record decks.
StanleyB
26-02-2013, 09:37
Far less difference has a different meaning to stating that there is no difference.
I would expect to find far less difference. The purpose of a stand alone DAC in general is to perform an important function that an integrated DAC can hardly ever manage to achieve. And that is to decode the digital data with far better accuracy and far less loss of information.
Naturally, some designers have taken things further by taking that accurately decoded signal and amending its performance with such things as valve buffer stages, boosted bass or highs,, etc. This is taking the reproduction away from being neutral to being a sales point in itself.
Ali Tait
26-02-2013, 09:56
Nick didn't say there was no difference, just that differences were small in most cases.
I think what Nick means is that there is little between most dacs, not that there is no difference, and having compared many at more than one Owston, I'd have to agree. There is far less of a difference between most than there is between,say, two different record decks.
I mostly agree and would add that record decks are like malt whisky - really varied, whereas DACs are more like Brandy - there's still variation but it more within a theme. There are exceptions too.
Richiebuoy
26-02-2013, 10:20
Far less difference has a different meaning to stating that there is no difference.
I would expect to find far less difference. The purpose of a stand alone DAC in general is to perform an important function that an integrated DAC can hardly ever manage to achieve. And that is to decode the digital data with far better accuracy and far less loss of information.
So is it reasonable to assume even an upmarket cd player such as my MF A3.2 will not have a 'great' DAC inside it ?
StanleyB
26-02-2013, 10:36
So is it reasonable to assume even an upmarket cd player such as my MF A3.2 will not have a 'great' DAC inside it ?
It is not the DAC chip inside the CD player, but the sound that comes out of the RCA/phono sockets. Far too many wires running all over the PCB. These copper tracks pick up all sort of unwanted noises from other processes within the CD player. And these noises taint the end result that comes out of the CDP.
One reason why the Bushmaster's PCB is laid out the way it is was based on the objective to reduce unwanted secondary signal noises from other signal processing going on in close proximity of the analogue audio tracks. In a cramped CD player those options are not so easy to implement, unless you start using multiple PCBs. That's one reason why a lot of old generation CD players sound so brilliant even today. They did use multiple boards to keep signals interfering with each other. But later designs crammed everything possible onto just one board which resulted in a poor audio reproduction in many cases.
Of course this ain't necessarily so. I preferred the sound of my Arcam CD72 running directly into the DR5 rather than through a Caiman, the CDP's own DAC sounding far more fluid and 'analogue'. It's a different kettle of fish using a Bushmaster however, which, when working correctly, comfortably outperforms the onboard DAC in the Arcam.
Manufactures of upmarket CDP's tend to lavish far more attention on the design. For example, the Arcam CD72 sports no less than seven separate power supplies, all isolated from each other and the output circuitry, which I guess is why it performs so well out of its RCA sockets.
Ali Tait
26-02-2013, 11:40
The output stage has as much influence as anything else in the dac IMHO.
I would disagree Nick. There is no way that 99% of designers can make their DAC sound just as good or just as bad. A minor change in PCB layout or the use of a different cap or audio opamp can make a huge difference.
Yes, I agree Stanley, maybe 99% was wrong, but I was just quoting. My point is a lot of DAC's don't seem to have had anyone try and change the opamp or cap, they just go with the cheapest simplest route and copy the spec sheet.
My point is a large number of DAC's out there don't sound as good as they could, many are rendered mediocre by the simple saving of a couple of quid on an op amp or cheap electrolytic on the output.
which merridian ?
206b - an oldie but a goodie.
I now have a very good nos dac which sounds very different and much better (to my saltwater filled ears anyway).
:).
It reminded me of a customer with a Sonos system who spent a whole month trying out a Caiman Gatorized Caiman, and a TC-7520 but could hear no difference with hires 96KHz audio files. I reckon not many people can spot the reason for that even though all the clues are in there in the first sentence. The same person mentioned on the net that all three DACs were the same soundwise and that it was a waste of money buying the more expensive one.
In case people are too afraid to ask about this, it's because the Sonos only plays up to 48K. Presumably it downsamples them or can you play 96k as 48k though some receiver chips?
So is it reasonable to assume even an upmarket cd player such as my MF A3.2 will not have a 'great' DAC inside it ?
There are more reasons to use an external DAC than just sound quality anyway.
I prefer a modular approach to things so I can make fewer compromises.
I see a CD player as a user interface as much as anything else so if it sound's great but is awkward to use or is flimsy or has a crap remote, looks rubbish then you end up sacrificing the good sound in order to upgrade the other parts.
A DAC is also like a digital hub so if you have more than one digital source it all goes to the same DAC unit rather than having to have loads more analogue inputs on your pre-amp.
Then a DAC is loads more future proof than the latest media format: CD, Minidisc, DCC, SACD, DVD-A etc etc. A least these days it is since DAC capabilities have grown at a faster pace than the digital music format itself.
For me, having a seperate DAC releases me, allows me to choose from all the great, solid transport designs of yesteryear without feeling that the DAC is compromised, old technology. (well , I do use an old DAC but wasn't going to mention that.. I've a DIY project in mind to get it playing up to 20/192k)
In case people are too afraid to ask about this, it's because the Sonos only plays up to 48K. Presumably it downsamples them or can you play 96k as 48k though some receiver chips?
See, that's a much better approach. If this had been explained to the customer in the first place then perhaps the outcome may have been a little different. Education is the key ;)
Oldpinkman
05-06-2013, 13:48
I may start a new thread, but felt a burning need to post and so hear I am. I have just picked up, in perfect working order, for a pathetic £300 a Pink Triangle DaCapo with 22bit filter. Now this is really spooky. I used to work for PT when this launched, and this was my favourite digital. It was the only digital I could listen to a whole CD on. It's 20 years since I heard one. It's only redbook - I'm using a Cambridge CD6 (picked up for £45) as the transport, with bnc/phono adaptors and an old cheap phono cable for the link. I know John Westlake has produced more since, including M-dac which I auditioned last year on headphones and wasnt convinced by (probably because of the headphones and the internal amp).
But this is astonishing. Firstly because it is EXACTLY how I remember it sounding. This is a bit spooky. I had the same "memory" experience with a Quad 34 I used for a bit whilst my PIP was fixed. So this is by way of saying - Dac's make a difference, there is a lot of tosh about transports, links jitter and the like, and the DaCapo 22 bit was "almost analogue". I will get on the quest to find an HDCD filter (never heard one before) and M-Dac, but this is good enough
So the next point. I was discussing amplifier design and HiFi auditioning with Owen Jones, the designer of the Pip at the weekend, and we reached an important conclusion. It relates to an earlier comment I made about blind testing. Whilst blind testing and direct A:B's are important in product development, they are a distraction. When it comes to your own system, listening for pleasure, it either sounds right or it doesnt, and that is all that matters. Important differences are apparant just listening. By way of example, Owen is fixing my Quad 405-2 which has a hum problem. I bought an Arcam 10P as a temporary amp off ebay, whilst its being fixed (Owen is a busy man) and to give it a try. My wife, who couldnt tell a pre-amp from a power amp, and knows nothing and cares nothing about hifi came in and said "whats that new box? What's wrong with the record player - why doesnt it sound right?". There is nothing wrong with the Arcam. Specifically it doesnt hum. But it just doesnt make music like my (somewhat PT pimped) Quad 405-2. And there was no need for an A:B comparison, or blind testing. It just isnt as satisfying listening to music with it. May well post more on this subject if I can organise my thoughts about what on earth I think I am talking about
wee tee cee
05-06-2013, 14:23
lovely post richard, encapsulates the ethos shared by many members.....its all about trusting your ears and enjoying music.
So the next point. I was discussing amplifier design and HiFi auditioning with Owen Jones, the designer of the Pip at the weekend, and we reached an important conclusion. It relates to an earlier comment I made about blind testing. Whilst blind testing and direct A:B's are important in product development, they are a distraction. When it comes to your own system, listening for pleasure, it either sounds right or it doesnt, and that is all that matters. Important differences are apparant just listening.
Great quote
Ali Tait
05-06-2013, 17:13
Aye, I'd agree with that also.
Oldpinkman
06-06-2013, 05:49
And to confirm a result both my wife and stepson said "wow" on hearing dacapo. Sue agreed it was worth the detour at the weekend to pick up. No need to go back and listen to the cd6 to check. A difference so fundamental it changes the experience of listening to music.if you are wondering why I put up with an inferior experience for so long when I knew what I was missing, the answer is partly I didn't trust my acoustic memory, and partly other women in my life with other priorities for our domestic arrangements. I love sue heaps
realysm42
06-06-2013, 14:57
If it measures the same, it sounds the same.
Ali Tait
06-06-2013, 16:53
Don't agree that at all.
Don't agree that at all.
Methinks he was joking......he'd better be!
realysm42
06-06-2013, 19:28
Methinks he was joking......he'd better be!
:eyebrows:
When it comes to your own system, listening for pleasure, it either sounds right or it doesnt, and that is all that matters.
I like this :)
I often feel a little inferior when it comes to poetic descriptions of what an upgrade or change brings to the party - I much prefer, I like this or nope, I don't like that. As no matter how I describe it, or what flowery language I use, it isn't going to matter a jot to somebody else if they don't like how it sounds themselves. The sound we prefer is I think just as personal as our music tastes . . . certainly in my case it is.
I never liked the sound of the M-DAC either and much prefer my Rega.
realysm42
06-06-2013, 20:36
I loved my mdac, it transformed my system.
What I've got now absolutely smokes it though :eyebrows:
Tim, have you got an upgraded PSU for your DAC? I couldn't believe the difference it made I plugged it in (talking about mdac here).
The Mdac didn't really compare to my Rega either, but it was a different beast with a regulated PSU.
Improves the Mdac quite a bit imo.
Tim, have you got an upgraded PSU for your DAC?
The Rega differs to the M-DAC Martin, it doesn't have an external PSU, its built into the unit.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/22-33_07-06-2013_zps30e9d116.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/greatgig/media/22-33_07-06-2013_zps30e9d116.jpg.html)
The Rega dac is a beast. Loved mine.
Been reading about the new Saturn-R?
No all round improvement Dac wise if your looking to upgrade to this.
Basically the Rega dac inside with an uprated USB input that does 24/192.
(Got this from a Rega dealer)
I heard Nicks's Dac...its a bit special isn't it?
I loved my mdac, it transformed my system.
What I've got now absolutely smokes it though :eyebrows:
Tim, have you got an upgraded PSU for your DAC? I couldn't believe the difference it made I plugged it in (talking about mdac here).
The Rega dac is a beast. Loved mine.
I have to admit I really love it, but I like the Rega house sound and my sound at the moment is the closest thing to vinyl I have heard from a digital system, it just all works so well together. Personal preference I know, but a lot of other DAC's sound too clinical for me, and I'm not massively taken by HD and like redbook - old fashioned I guess, which is a bit of a conundrum when you consider I run a file based system :scratch:
Nearly all of the other systems I have heard in the last few years (apart from MartinT's which is rather unique), sound like Hi-Fi whereas my system sounds like music, at least it does to my ears and that's all that really counts I guess ;)
Rare Bird
07-06-2013, 21:59
I like this :)
I often feel a little inferior when it comes to poetic descriptions of what an upgrade or change brings to the party - I much prefer, I like this or nope, I don't like that. As no matter how I describe it, or what flowery language I use, it isn't going to matter a jot to somebody else if they don't like how it sounds themselves. The sound we prefer is I think just as personal as our music tastes . . . certainly in my case it i
I love it when people say this & that is crap, unless they have broken in & had a crafty listern while i was out how they hell would they kno :D what might be crapola to them maybe quite the reverse ter me.. Equally as funnny is people that buy vintage amps, plug them in & expect them to be working the same as they were 40 years ago :lol: even if they remembered back they will have had a whole different system never mind component quality was a bit poop back then :eyebrows:
When it comes to your own system, listening for pleasure, it either sounds right or it doesnt, and that is all that matters. Important differences are apparant just listening.
Totally agree. I have tried a couple of modern day dacs to date and neither have sounded 'right' to these ears. As soon as my faithful old DaCapo is plugged back in, it does.
Richard, look into getting the capacitors changed in your DAC if you feel it's a keeper and if it hasn't been done yet. The DaCapo had an issue with leaking caps. You may already be aware of this, but I thought I'd mention it just in case you are not.
what might be crapola to them maybe quite the reverse ter me.
Bang on André :thumbsup:
I have to admit I really love it, but I like the Rega house sound and my sound at the moment is the closest thing to vinyl I have heard from a digital system, it just all works so well together. Personal preference I know, but a lot of other DAC's sound too clinical for me, and I'm not massively taken by HD and like redbook - old fashioned I guess, which is a bit of a conundrum when you consider I run a file based system :scratch:
Nearly all of the other systems I have heard in the last few years (apart from MartinT's which is rather unique), sound like Hi-Fi whereas my system sounds like music, at least it does to my ears and that's all that really counts I guess ;)
Tim,
if you get the chance hear the Young Dac.
It does what the Rega Dac does, only more so.
Thought I was in a "Dac is not just for Christmas" situation with the Rega until I heard the Young.
It does the Rega thing, just more so.
Tim,
if you get the chance hear the Young Dac.
Its on my To-Do list Gary, but I'm up to my neck in Linux at the moment!
I tried to get an answer from Purite re the Young, as I'm sure I read somewhere it doesn't take power from the USB 5V rail, but provides its own regulated 3.3V for the chipset. This would go a long way to improving the SQ and negate the need for a separate isolator/power source. This would actually make my current project a lot neater, but it seems no-one knows the answer to this.
I guess I will only be happy until I hear it myself anyway and in my own system, as I don't do shop or show demo's anymore - so much to do and so little time.
Ali Tait
07-06-2013, 23:24
Wanna hear the Young dac against my wee valve jobbie at some point Gaz.
Its on my To-Do list Gary, but I'm up to my neck in Linux at the moment!
I tried to get an answer from Purite re the Young, as I'm sure I read somewhere it doesn't take power from the USB 5V rail, but provides its own regulated 3.3V for the chipset. This would go a long way to improving the SQ and negate the need for a separate isolator/power source. This would actually make my current project a lot neater, but it seems no-one knows the answer to this.
I guess I will only be happy until I hear it myself anyway and in my own system, as I don't do shop or show demo's anymore - so much to do and so little time.
I know the answer to this... :)
the Young doesn't need the 5V power line to work.
I can switch the 5V+ line on and off with my server so can comment having heard both.
Works just fine, improved sound quality.
Weirdly enough I posted before about the Young not playing Hires music files properly without a 5v power feed, with the latest version of JRiver and Jplay (not a hoax btw, it just like, improves things?), anything up to 24/384 plays fine with the Young 5V line turned off!
Wanna hear the Young dac against my wee valve jobbie at some point Gaz.
I'm sticking it on the back seat of the car on the way down to Owston Ali, looking forward to hearing it against other dacs myself!
Ali Tait
07-06-2013, 23:47
Cool, only six more sleeps! :eyebrows:
aye..poppin' my Owston cherry next weekend. go easy ya brown cardigan wearin rapists ye!
Jplay (not a hoax btw . . .
Hmmm, maybe not, but its not worth €99 - have you looked inside it and seen the code, there's feck all there? Linux does the same for free, but something tells me you are finding that out right now :eyebrows:
Seems the 5V thing is confirmed then, makes sense and I'm sure they will all be doing it soon, which could hit iFi USB and make their unit redundant?
Ali Tait
08-06-2013, 00:07
Bring yer pipe an slippers!!
Hmmm, maybe not, but its not worth €99 - have you looked inside it and seen the code, there's feck all there? Linux does the same for free, but something tells me you are finding that out right now :eyebrows:
Seems the 5V thing is confirmed then, makes sense and I'm sure they will all be doing it soon, which could hit iFi USB and make their unit redundant?
I'd pay more than 99 Euro's for a subjective cable upgrade (and have done loads of times)...all I care about is when I click "Play" does it sound better to me than before in my system..Jplay does, to these jaded ears, and its not subtle either.
and this is coming from someone who tried an older version of Jplay and thought you scheming gits!
Jriver recommends an ASIO driver where possible...Jplay is a customised ASIO driver for Jiver with customisable options.
Its a hoax apparently..go figure.
As with everything HIfi in the real world, hear stuff for yourself in your own system, if its better...great. If not, move on.
I've tried most tweaks in windows to improve audio, worked with Bios settings, registry settings and tried linear PSU's in audio servers.
Some stuff is bulls*$ some makes a difference, and I can tell you that in my experience Jplay is worth the asking price.
wee tee cee
08-06-2013, 10:01
gaz brought along bits and bob over recently, heard the young dac at my place it was very natural souding....grabbed my son to hear it with his 19 year old ears-he was very impressed at its neutrality and musicalness (dunno if that's a word) might well give alis valve dac a points decision 15 rounder.
Oldpinkman
08-06-2013, 10:23
Totally agree. I have tried a couple of modern day dacs to date and neither have sounded 'right' to these ears. As soon as my faithful old DaCapo is plugged back in, it does.
Richard, look into getting the capacitors changed in your DAC if you feel it's a keeper and if it hasn't been done yet. The DaCapo had an issue with leaking caps. You may already be aware of this, but I thought I'd mention it just in case you are not.
Thanks. I was aware of the issue from JW posts on pinkfish. When I spotted this DaCApo on ebay I asked that very question - and went to see it and listen to it before picking it up. Without wanting to get involved in bickering between 2 mates who have recently started talking again, there is a rumour that is a bit of a fairy tale. Indeed, there is another capacitor horror story lying in wait - buried in the potted section of the Dac. Enjoy it while it lasts, and hope that JW can be persuaded to build DaCapo again, with the capacitor wired the right way round this time. He appears to be interested in another Dac project anyway
Oldpinkman
08-06-2013, 11:01
I've not heard the Young. I heard the Rega, but not properly. I have heard MDac twice (3 times if we include in the CD player before MDac launched). I note What HiFi rate MDac very highly and imply it is as good as the Young. (I also note that What HiFi rated the Arcam 10P power amp I am using whilst I wait for my 405-2 to be mended very highly, and it is not my cup of tea. Nor my wifes. Nor the dogs.)
I haven't A:B'd DaCapo against MDac. I listened to MDac on whatever the system Sevenoaks HiFi had in the shop at the time was (Arcam again I think) and , more seriously on my DT990 headphones, straight off the dac. I trust John Westlake as a talented designer, genuine, honest, caring, very competent individual, and was going to buy MDac blind to show Mrs S that CD could be sooo much better than we had, now she had discovered vinyl and HiFi. I had £600 burning a hole in my pocket.
And I wasnt convinced. And the very non-techy Mrs S said some nice things to humour me "its quite nice" "yes lovely" etc. I put it down to being just out of surgery, and planned to take 7oaks up on their offer to take one home and try it there - you can't ask more of a dealer, 5 stars. (A good old A:B). But I haven't, and I am in no hurry to.
And then, to scratch an itch, I decided I really wanted, just once, to remind myself what DaCapo 22 bit sounded like, and prove I am finally senile. I knew about the leaky capacitor story, and only ever saw either Ordinal with 22 bit, or Dacapo with 18 or 20 bit. And finally, I saw my new toy (cue a Gollum moment from Lord of the Rings, "my precious"). Detoured on the way to see another PT old boy to pick it up. Frustrated weekend in Norfolk, no shops open, when we realised it had balanced, toslink or coax inputs, but we only had a coax lead with RCA's and it had a b***y BNC on both its coax's. Got home to use my toslink, and realised there was only a BNC on the CD6 I am using as transport. So waited for some BNC's from ebay....
Plugged it in, switched it on, listening through said "not my cup of tea" Arcam 10P. Wow! Mrs S "Wow". Step son "Wow". (I haven't let the dog listen yet)
We have just listened to one of Mrs S's old (uncared for) Eva Cassidy CD's - to "Songbird" a song we do together with me strangling a guitar (Mrs S is a trained soprano). Did you know there is a wood block (instrument) on it? Now, I havent rushed round to AB and see whether I notice it on the old cd player, or my iphone. But I don't remember it before. So much so I thought the Dac had become defective, and wondered which capacitor had blown.
Now, this long ramble, is by way of getting back to "wow" differences, "deal-breakers" or whatever you want to call them. They are important enough for you to need them to really enjoy music. The differences you have to go back and check, and make sure which one you like, may be real, but - before anyone jumps down my throat - TO ME - don't matter. At University on a management course, I learned the term "satisfycing". It was by contrast to the alternative of "optimising". You might think that you would always seek the optimal solution. But in human systems, involving the wide economy, there are just too many variables, and no opportunity to experiment on the alternatives. So instead of trying to optimise, and never reaching a stable conclusion, you seek to "satisfice".
You find a solution that is "good enough". It may not be the best - but it does the job. Personally, for ME, that idea is important in HiFi. There are some things, which, once I've heard them, matter so much, I can't do without. Interestingly my non-techie wife picks all the same ones, and whilst she might never stoop to reading a HiFi magazine, and still listens to an ipod, they matter to her too. Some solutions are not good enough. The poor 10P, bless it, would be one of those for me. There is no need for A:B's. I am just not enjoying the music. And this is the important thing about "good enough". If you are always chasing the best solution, you end up listening to the equipment and not the music.
The Rega or Young may be better than my DaCapo. And if they are, and I hear one one day, it may matter to me enough to "have to have one". But right now, DaCapo has floated my boat (again). I can listen to CD's again. It has passed the real test - I listen to CD's for ages at a time (not done that in 20 years) and we are digging out all our old CD's to hear what they sound like on it.
"Good enough". "Satisfycing" "Deal-breaker" differences. No A:B required.
aybracers
12-10-2013, 16:11
Hi oldpinkman,
Please can you clear your personal mail as your box is full.
Thanks
Roger
Oldpinkman
13-10-2013, 06:46
Inbox clear :)
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