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View Full Version : Using a Denon 103R with the stock Tech SL1210M5G Arm



sc_ita
25-03-2009, 13:04
Hi,
I am new with this forum. I have read some very intersting posts from many members about the coupling of the Tech with the Denons' cartridges, so I decided to ask you for some hints in order to enhance the performance of my new Denon 103R that I have mounted on the standard arm of my SL1210M5G. My previous experience with the DL160 is that it sounds very clean and traces very well with this stock arm.
Unfortunately I cannot say the same thing with my new 103R.
The main problem I ear is some harshness of the soprano voices in some loud passages (e.g. in "Das lied von der Erde" or the "Fourth Symph" of Maher and others...).
I have tried to add 4g of mass on the headshell without any significant benefit.
As a pre-phono I use a NVA unit that sounds very good with the DL160 (and 47K of impedence), so I have also tried to modify the input impedence of this phono stage (e.g. I tried 100R, 200R, 400R, 2K) - I hope RD will not be angry with me for this - again without substantial improvement regarding the reduction of the harshness of the soprano voices.
So I imagine that there is a problem of bad mechanical coupling due to the very low compliance of the cartridge. Perhaps the stock arm is not usable with this cartridge?
Is it a good idea to add even more mass to the headshell - e.g. adopting a Yamamoto ebony one?
Thank you very much for any suggestion,
SC

Marco
25-03-2009, 15:52
Ciao SC,

Benvenuti a AOS :)

Come ti chiami? I miei parenti vengono vicino a Lucca.

Ok, to sort out your 103R problem... I know exactly what's causing the harshness (and probably distortion) you're hearing. It's two main things:

1) The stock headshell in the Technics arm is not very good quality (being designed mainly for DJ cartridges) and needs to be replaced if a 103R is used. It doesn't matter how much mass you add to the headshell - it'll still be flimsy and not very good.

So, what you need to do is buy one of these Ortofons:

http://www.dienadel.de/cgi-bin/cosmoshop/lshop.cgi?action=bewertung&follow=bewertung&rubnum=1061913506.1061914911&artnum=210018&wkid=2010t&ls=d&nocache=&gesamt_zeilen=showdetail--1061913506.1061914911--210018

These are ideal for what you need, because at 16.2g there's enough mass (you can add a bit more if necessary with the cartridge spacer, which you'll need - I'll explain in more detail below), it is constructed from quality materials, and is also quite good value. Optimal headshell mass for a 103 is between 16-18g, depending on the presentation of your system. If you don't want to buy from the German seller you can probably get them elsewhere, maybe even in Italy.

2) The stock Technics arm doesn't have enough arm height adjustment on it to set VTA correctly for a 103 cartridge. Even with it wound right down, the arm will still be too high at the back. This is because the 1210 has a very low platter and the 103 is a low-bodied cartridge - a fatal combination for getting VTA right!

Therefore what you have to do is obtain a cartridge spacer which inserts between the 103 and the headshell to raise the height at the front of the arm, thus allowing you to set VTA correctly by getting the arm parallel to the record playing surface. It's something like this you need:

http://www.2juki.com/index.php?categoryid=2&p164_item=102&p164_action=item

But don't get that one as it'll be too heavy to use with the Ortofon headshell. That was just an example to show what I meant (in case you didn't know). What you should do is send a private message to Dave Cawley from Sound Hi-fi, who is a member here, and ask him to make you one of his 'cartridge stabilisers' to a mass of 1g and a thickness of 3mm (it'll need to be made from a lightweight material other than the brass he normally supplies, but that should be ok) and use it with the Ortofon headshell above.

Or you could go for one of these lighter (12.8g but still high quality) Ortofon headshells:

http://www.roe-hifi.de/product_info.php/info/p965_Ortofon-LH-6000-Headshell.html

and get Dave to make up a 3mm or 4mm thick brass 'cartridge stabiliser' to around 5g to add to the headshell, giving you the right mass overall and also extra VTA adjustment from being a spacer.

Once you have the right headshell and you're able to get the arm parallel to the record playing surface (achieving correct VTA) the harshness you're hearing should disappear completely, unless there is actual groove damage on the record or it's just a bad recording. The harshness is occurring because the cartridge isn't tracing the grooves properly and the lack of mass on the headshell isn't compatible with the low compliance of the cartridge. Once you've sorted out the headshell and spacer you may wish to add the silicon fluid-damper (available from KAB USA) which will again help the arm and cartridge 'behave' better. You may also need a heavier counterweight on the arm to balance the heavy headshell. If so, I can put you in touch with someone who supplies those.

Hopefully that should help - let me know :)

Marco.

sc_ita
25-03-2009, 17:00
Grazie mille, Marco!
thus, I will provide a more proper headshell, with more mass like the Ortofon.From your words, I also understand that the ebony headshell made by Yamamoto is too light (about 12g) for the 103R (it's a shame since it is very good looking, well, perhaps I could use it with the DL160...).
Regarding the VTA adjustment I have just resolved by cutting a small rectangle of black acrylic of exactly 1g of mass and 3mm of height, and now the arm remains substantially horizontal at mark 1.5 of the main VTA screw. At least for this part I am ok.
Regarding the electronics, what is your experience with the optimal loading impedence, considering that I connect the cartridge directly into the phono (no trasfo)?
Thank you,
e grazie ancora,
Siro

DSJR
25-03-2009, 17:02
I should add that conical tips aren't the best for "tracing" inner grooves either, assuming you can get the tracking sorted. Most moving coil cartridges have had, in the past, only marginal tracking of heavy orchestral music, although newer designs should be better here (DL304 is fine for example).

Good luck with your tweaking. I understand that Expert Styli do a good re-work of the 103 as well and their re-tips usually come out at least as good as the original (better in the case of Linn's Karma and Troika I understand).

Marco
25-03-2009, 17:15
Ciao Siro,

Non c'e' problema! :cool:

Yes the Yamamoto is a lovely headshell but unfortunately it's too light for a 103.

Well done on the VTA :)

I meant to say before that there's nothing wrong with your NVA phono stage. Although I haven't heard one personally, they have a very good reputation. If you load it at 100 Ohms (your "100R" setting) that should be best.

Let me know how things are when you get the new headshell. Since you're using a 1g acrylic spacer, I'd go for the heavier Ortofon headshell. One small tweak you can try is to remove the little rubber washer on the bayonet fixing of the headshell and fit the headshell to the arm without it. This should improve 'focus' and give slightly better detail retrieval. Oh, and if you're not already doing so, set the tracking force to 2.7g. This in my experience is the optimal setting for VTF and where things truly 'click into focus', not the recommended 2.5g.

Auguri,
Marco.

P.S Dave (DSJR) is right about conical tips, but with optimal set-up and sympathetic ancillaries it's amazing what can be achieved!

hkk
26-03-2009, 15:49
hi marco
i have an Ortofon LH 2000 Headshell sitting in my shelf for months, did try it on with my 103r, but the two slots on top of the ortofon LH2000 seems shorter than the original 1200 headshell when comparing them side by side. will i still get the correct alignment?

Mike
26-03-2009, 16:17
Yes the Yamamoto is a lovely headshell but unfortunately it's too light for a 103.

Should work well with one of Dave's cartridge stabilisers I would have thought, no?

sc_ita
27-03-2009, 14:29
Grazie ancora a Marco!
Considering the fact that the Yamamoto is already on fly from HK to Italy, I am also wondering about the usage of the Dave's brass stabilizers with it. :mental: Perhaps the 12g of the ebony one could be enough together with about 6-7g of the brass plate?

Regarding the observation of DSJR, I have also considered trying a Denon that is more similar to my DL160 (which is perfectly paired with the stock arm of my Tech: never heard any distorsion with sopranos:)). I've seen the 304, it seems very intersting but it has a ultra low output level, perhaps too low for usage without a step-up transformer. :scratch: Someone has some comments about the DL301MKII paired with Tech stock arm, in particular for playing classical and opera music?

Thank you
e ciao,
Siro

DSJR
27-03-2009, 17:34
The 304 offers good tracking and tracing of inner grooves at 1.25grammes downforce. I suspect that to keep the moving mass low, along with the generator damping, the coils are wound just enough to give some output - one problem *apparently* with mc's in general is that the cantilever and coils is relatively heavy and loads of "goo" (suspension damping) is needed to control it all, as it is in the DL110 and 160 by all accounts (according to an old, positive review).

The thing is, the more "direct" form of cartridge design does gove a more "immediate" quality to records and designs like SPU's, DL103's and Decca's (ahhh, Decca's.......... :)) just seem to have this "presence."

Marco, you're quite right. Conical tips do work in the right designs, but I'd still love the chance to hear the EsCo rebuilt 103 with a more modern tip...

sc_ita
27-03-2009, 18:07
Very interesting explaination. Thus, if I understand well, the limit of the 160 in the low frequency dynamics is essentially due to the needs of a very high mechanical damping in order to control the relatively high mass of the coils. This could be a common feature of all the High output MC, isn't it?
Bye,
Siro

Marco
27-03-2009, 18:28
hi marco
i have an Ortofon LH 2000 Headshell sitting in my shelf for months, did try it on with my 103r, but the two slots on top of the ortofon LH2000 seems shorter than the original 1200 headshell when comparing them side by side. will i still get the correct alignment?

Hi hkk,

It's difficult to say. Can you post some pics to show what you mean? :)

Marco.

Marco
27-03-2009, 19:02
Should work well with one of Dave's cartridge stabilisers I would have thought, no?

Yes indeed, Mikey - I was thinking of 'complete' headshell solutions :)


Considering the fact that the Yamamoto is already on fly from HK to Italy, I am also wondering about the usage of the Dave's brass stabilizers with it. Perhaps the 12g of the ebony one could be enough together with about 6-7g of the brass plate?


Ciao Siro,

Yes, that would be fine, so I would contact Dave and obtain a brass stabiliser to use with the Yamamoto.

Regarding the DL-301 and 304, I consider the former a much superior cartridge in every respect. The 304 is sweet sounding and quite beguiling with vocals and acoustic instruments but lacks the 'balls' to convey more visceral types of music convincingly. If you're used to using a 103, a 304 will sound considerably bass-light.

It's important to remember with Denons that the 110, 160, 301 and 304 all sound very different to the various 103s. These have a 'lighter', and in certain areas, 'tidier' balance to the spherical-tipped 103, with generally superior fine detail retrieval. Apparently though for fans of this type of presentation the DL-S1 is the one to go for:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/category/Cartridges/product/Denon_DL-S1_Moving_Coil_Cartridge.html?osCsid=a3a38b99f36ae cec62b93456ce01d1d7

I'll stick with the 103SA, though!

The 103's stylus profile, and crucially, Alnico magnets, give a power and depth in the lower registers, together with body and texture to voices and instruments, that really does make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, making for a powerful, adrenalin-fuelled listening experience - providing of course set-up has been optimised. Quite simply, out with of SPUs, Deccas, and the likes of the EMT XSD and TSD-15, or a Shure M3D, there is no sound like it available with modern cartridges.

I guess it boils down to whether for you listening to music is a 'cerebral'/analytical experience or something more 'heart-felt' and emotionally driven. I will always favour cartridges which prioritise the latter on recordings, even if it means that the overall sonic presentation is less 'accurate' in a modern sense. It's a bit like valves and solid-state: the 103 is a big, juicy, '300B' of a cartridge, whereas, say, a Lyra, (modern) Ortofon or VDH is more like a good Class D amp - blindingly detailed, tight, and 'accurate' sounding, but ultimately rather emotionless and sterile too, in comparison...


Marco, you're quite right. Conical tips do work in the right designs, but I'd still love the chance to hear the EsCo rebuilt 103 with a more modern tip...


I've heard it, Dave. You might like it but the results typify what I've been describing above. Retipping a 103 makes it sound superficially more 'accurate' but in doing so robs it of its romance and 'soul'. The rather more clinical sound is not for me, but I can imagine that it would be just the thing for some people.

Marco.

Mike
27-03-2009, 19:20
I've heard it, Dave. You might like it but the results typify what I've been describing above. Retipping a 103 makes it sound superficially more 'accurate' but in doing so robs it of its romance and 'soul'. The rather more clinical sound is not for me, but I can imagine that it would be just the thing for some people.

Marco.

I wonder if EsCo might be able to offer a stylus profile that would be a compromise between the two? Just an idle thought like. :)

I can see, or rather hear, what some folk like about the 103 family, but it's not quite my thing. I'm not terribly keen on the way one's front end needs to be so heavily, err, 'tailored' around the cartridge for it to work properly either. There seems to be something of a risk of the turntable becoming a bit of a 'one trick pony', if you see what I'm getting at?

Goon on ya though, if thats your kind of thing! :cheers:

scoobs
27-03-2009, 19:34
My ESCo para trace re-tipped 103 brought a great deal more intimacy to the existing sound, which for me increased the 'soul' as vocal inflections were more evident and tangible, the in-room presence was quite astonishing really. It lost none of it's visceral quality The balls, bounce, blood and guts were all still there too. I know I moaned like a bitch about the waiting time for a Esco re-tip, but it was well worth it, and I'll be sending my next 103 to them in the summer.

Marco
27-03-2009, 19:50
Mikey,

You're right - it's definitely a personal taste thing. There are definite advantages brought about by the EsCo retip; just not in the areas that I particularly value or that are most important to me.

What I dislike about 90% of modern cartridges is that they sound tonally thin and rather sterile in terms of musical communication compared to an optimally set-up 103 on a good direct-drive or idler-driven T/T. It's all very well majoring on 'accuracy' and detail retrieval, but that's not for me what communicates a musical performance.

How many times have you (read as 'one') been to hear a band play live and marvelled at the sound's 'top-end clarity' or the intricate layering of instruments? It's about passion and emotion - the feeling of 'being there', and any device which extracts more of that from the grooves will always get my vote over others which major on superficial hi-fi niceties.

Also, the 103 or any T/T which optimises it, is far from being a one-trick pony. Any 'tailoring' which occurs is simply done to provide the correct environment from which the cartridge can deliver its full potential - and that full potential is quite considerable. One must also remember that the 103 is from a totally different era, so therefore this necessitates a different system-building methodology :)

Scoobs,

I don't doubt your observations but I think much depends on the retip in question and the characteristics of the donor cartridge. The nature of the beast dictates that results will to some extent always be variable, not to mention the signature of the system the cartridge is used in. I suspect that the retipped 103 I heard was doing something rather different to the one you had :smoking:

Marco.

sc_ita
29-03-2009, 09:20
caro Marco,
the Yamamoto is still flying from HK... nessun problema, I will use it with the DL160. In the meanwhile, I have also ordered the Ortofon LH2000, so I think I will need a heavier counterweight to balance this heavy headshell. As a first attempt I will glue some more mass on the arm backend... well, OK, I know it isn't so a great idea. Can you give me a better suggestion, perhaps someone, somewhere, that is selling an heavier verision of the standard stock counterweight.
Grazie mille e ciao,
Siro.

Marco
31-03-2009, 12:38
Ciao Siro,

Yes I can! See here (Jonners post #23):

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=39927#post39927

:)

Marco.

sc_ita
06-04-2009, 11:38
Ciao a tutti!
The Ortofon LH2000 arrived but unfortunately I have discovered that it is not long enogh to allow the 52mm of distance of the stylus from the connecting screw of the arm/headshell, as specified for the stock Tech arm. In order to put the cartridge at the correct distance it is possible to make two new holes in the headshell. In this case, you need to have quite long screw, due to the fact that we have a total thickness of 15.5mm given by the sum of the height of the cartridge (8.5mm) plus the small acrylic plate (3mm) plus the headshell itself (4mm). Since I was not able to find these screw (it was Friday evening), I decided to adopt a different strategy.
Thus, I have connected the cartridge to the small acrylic plate (needed to obtain the correct VTA and also to add 1.5g of mass) by means of two screw. I have also put a small layer of vulcanized rubber between the cartridge and the acrylic in order gain coesion as well as to increase the damping. Then, I have connected the top of the acrylic plate to the headshell by using the classic Bostik glue (and also two other small screw, that were not essential at this point). The result is something that seems very much monolitic and deaf when hit.
Clearly, the standard Tech counterweight was not enough to balance the arm, thus I added a bolt (made by stainless steel, inox) at the backend of the arm. This bolt is again connected by using vulcanized rubber in order enhance the decoupling ,and to damp high frequency vibrations. Well, I am sure that some attached pictures could explain this work better that my words.

Finally, some comments about the sound: Marco, You are completely right!!! :gig:
With this set-up the cartridge has significantly enhanced its tracking ability. I have passed the week-end at re-discovering how much information in the low-end of the audio spectrum was hidden in my vinyls, that my other previous cartridges never were completely able to read (Denon DL160, Dynavector DV10x5, Grado Prestige Gold, to say). The slight roughness in the upper end of the audio spectrum has disappeared, and the voices are also nicely reproduced, even the sopranos.
By comparing the DL103R with the DL160 (which I continue consider a great cartridge for the price) the superiority of the 103R in the dynamics is really noticeable, especially at the medium and low frequencies, even if the DL160 continue to give me the impression of having a bit of more detail and cleanliness at the high frequencies.
Grazie ancora a Marco!!!
your help has been indispensable to obtain this result :cool::cool::cool:

Siro.