How much for turntable to beat CD?

[RMutt]

My last turntable was a Dual 505 with Nagaoka MP11. I remember how my first CD player blew it away. It seemed at the time, late eighties, that to better CD with a turntable you had to spend a considerable amount more than I could afford and I sort of gave up on the idea of having a turntable again. I now play CD's and stream via a Squeezebox Duet through a Rega DAC. For some reason though, probably the influence of AOS, I seem to be hankering after a record player again. The question is, how much would I need to spend and what should I be looking at to get within striking distance of my digital set up? I notice there seems to be a bit of a direct drive preference on AOS, but would the Pro Ject Debut Carbon get near? Any opinions welcome. Thanks.

[DSJR]

The Dual 505 was very popular, but was too scrappy in sound to be really regarded as a "High Fidelity" product - it was like a refined Garrard SP25, but little more in all honesty and NOTHING like the really good idler models of the 70's they made, starting with the 1216, despite obviously sharing their roots in layout, if not construction.

Here we go again - a Rega RP1 (available from 80 or so dealers in the UK) will give you a huge step up the vinyl ladder and the Carbon cartridge most come with now is a little stunner. The OM5e previously fitted is a bit too bright and raw for my tastes, although the Rega tames it a bit I think. Pro-ject do a whole raft of decks and the £250 Debut looks rather more substantial than the cheapie Debut model they did ten years ago. they're more motor-noisy though if you get a bad one.

The real turntable market starts at the £600+ level and there's loads from here on up. For a *new* turntable at under £300, I still think an RP1 would be very hard to beat :)

[chelsea]

Systemdek II would give cd players a good run upto a price.
If your trying to get the same sound as a cd player i'd say stay with the cdp.

I like both.

[DSJR]

You can have both sounding very similar using well cut and pressed records, but at this price, it's going to be a compromise I'm afraid - great bass and gentle treble, or loads of good treble but iffy bass. getting both in balance will inevitably be a compromise for sub £100 cartridges...

[synsei]

If you enjoy renovating stuff this might be a fun purchase and it should sound really nice too. The seller says it is mechanically sound but is just in need of the odd little cosmetic tweak and perhaps a replacement lid. Despite that I think it is a pretty thing. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Goldring-Lenco-GL69-turntable-record-deck-/330863234066?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item4d08fc4c12

[Rare Bird]

The original Systemdek with the Nextel finish & aluminium platter was a superb sounding deck.

[Macca]

Decent used Technics SL1200 or 1210, better mat sumiko headshell and sympathetic cart. All in about £350 - £400 depending on the cart you go for. No cheap unsuspended belt drive will give you the confident replay you get from a 1210 and which you take for granted with digital, although it will give a different presentation that you may be after.

[chelsea]

The original Systemdek with the Nextel finish & aluminium platter was a superb sounding deck.

Yes i had one with a FR 64.
Wish i'd never sold it.

[hifi_dave]

The original Systemdek with the Nextel finish & aluminium platter was a superb sounding deck.

Have you een one lately ?

Every one I've seen in the past ten years has a finish which doubles as fly paper. That Nextel is a nightmare.

[Rare Bird]

Saw one a bit back, easy job to strip it & go get it refinished to what ever you want..

[RMutt]

Thanks for the replies. I suppose £600+ (Dave) is in Rega DAC plus transport territory, so not ridiculously expensive. I would quite like the idea of working on an older turntable( synsei), the trouble is apart from the Goldring Lencos, Technics and now the Systemdek ( Chelsea) I have no idea what to look out for. I believe most of the major Japanese makers made really good examples but also some duffers and I would not know the difference from the model numbers. Keep any ideas coming, all appreciated.

[ossy]

Rega planar 3?

I've got a DV10X5 cart on mine and use a Dynavector P75 phono amp - it's better (different perhaps? Certainly more interesting) than my cd and I've got a great dac!

The rega's foolproof and easily sorted out 'cos theres hardly anything to go wrong - sounds really lovely.

You could pick one up for £150, buy a decent cart and then save up for a decent phono stage later.

[hifi_dave]

The Japanese made huge numbers of "duffers", so don't go thinking that buying a vintage turntable is the key to good sound.

[twotone]

I recently bought a AR The Legend/Turntable with an AT 1120 tonearm and cheap AT cart for £250.

There were two recent sales of the arm on e-bay for £180 & £190:eek:

I've since stuck at Denon-DL110 cart on the arm and the sound is fantastic.

Previously had a Rega Planar 3 and an RB300 arm with the same Denon cart and the difference between the two is night and day.

The current TT has relegated my Arcam FMJ CD23T to bit player status and that CD player is one of the best that Arcam ever made.

Good vinyl is essential though, I've just bought a very early press of Hunky Dory for £54 delivered and the sound from this album on the above TT is amazing.

BTW, I sold the Rega P3 for a fiver more than the AR:cool:

[AlfaGTV]

...the difference between the two is night and day.
...


While i've never heard an AR Legend in my home i can appreciate that there are big differences in reproduction of music! :)

The Rega has many good qualities, but you can hardly accuse the pear for NOT being an apple? Oh, well, you CAN of course, but that wouldn't be of much use... :eyebrows:

While the Rega will sound marvellous to many people, just like the AR table will appeal to others, turntables will always play part on their respective sounds. There are so many good options out there and if you can imagine a used one the possibility for finding your ultimate TT (within the price range of course) is near!

To me personally, it's more a matter of which sound you like and where your priorities lie, rather than a CD sounding better or worse than a good quality vinyl pressing of the same music. CD's have the advantage of not being so adversely affected by poor handling, cleaning and the quality of the plastic base material.
On the other hand, a good pressing on some high quality vinyl, mastered by a competent technician will still trample all over its sibling CD...

Best audio up to $500? To me a good quality used CD transport, hooked up to a Bushmaster or similar will not have any competition on the analog side.

Regards
//Mike

[Audioman]

While i've never heard an AR Legend in my home i can appreciate that there are big differences in reproduction of music! :)

The Rega has many good qualities, but you can hardly accuse the pear for NOT being an apple? Oh, well, you CAN of course, but that wouldn't be of much use... :eyebrows:

While the Rega will sound marvellous to many people, just like the AR table will appeal to others, turntables will always play part on their respective sounds. There are so many good options out there and if you can imagine a used one the possibility for finding your ultimate TT (within the price range of course) is near!

To me personally, it's more a matter of which sound you like and where your priorities lie, rather than a CD sounding better or worse than a good quality vinyl pressing of the same music. CD's have the advantage of not being so adversely affected by poor handling, cleaning and the quality of the plastic base material.
On the other hand, a good pressing on some high quality vinyl, mastered by a competent technician will still trample all over its sibling CD...

Best audio up to $500? To me a good quality used CD transport, hooked up to a Bushmaster or similar will not have any competition on the analog side.

Regards
//Mike

For a vinyl player around the £700 mark a reasonably good CD player / Dac costs and presentation that preserves a lot of what is good with CD (but better) I would suggest a Mitchell Teknodec. The older Pega p3 or an old AR will sound relatively coloured.

Paul.

[twotone]

I was listening to a very very fine all Linn system last week which the owner had recently upgraded from an equally as fine all Linn system and without doubt this guy's system is the best that I have ever heard anyway he played a re-mastered CD version of Dylan's desire and I've never heard anything like it, the sound of the first track (Hurricane) was completely amazing to the extent that I thought I was having a heart attack down to the base notes hitting me in the chest (I've never experienced this before).

Now this guy is a vinyl freak and had a copy of Desire on vinyl but he explained that it was a very poor recording down to compression due to the length of some of the tracks on the album but he put it on his TT anyway and I loved it.

Clearly it was completely different in sound from the CD version but there was something much nicer to my ears with the vinyl although I was blown away with the sound of the CD.

Tony

[twotone]

For a vinyl player around the £700 mark a reasonably good CD player / Dac costs and presentation that preserves a lot of what is good with CD (but better) I would suggest a Mitchell Teknodec. The older Pega p3 or an old AR will sound relatively coloured.

Paul.

Hi Paul, what do you mean by 'coloured'?

I'm new to vinyl too BTW, well not really I was brought up on it but never really heard a good TT set up in the past.

Thanks

Tony

[DSJR]

For a vinyl player around the £700 mark a reasonably good CD player / Dac costs and presentation that preserves a lot of what is good with CD (but better) I would suggest a Mitchell Teknodec. The older Pega p3 or an old AR will sound relatively coloured.

Paul.

The AR shouldn't be coloured if set up properly and if the bearing is a good one with no slop in it. My thoughts on the P3 have been made before here - everything firmly tight and the thing placed on a light but rigid support to improve bass. Their wall bracket is excellent here for this and can be used with other things after, with little bodging...

[Audioman]

Hi Paul, what do you mean by 'coloured'?

I'm new to vinyl too BTW, well not really I was brought up on it but never really heard a good TT set up in the past.

Thanks

Tony

Well I would say leaning on the warm an murky side or on the other hand too lean and hard. In my experience Mitchell are pretty neutral with some welcome added warmth. Older wooden box plinth designs tend to err more to the traditional vinyl warm and slightly murky sound. Rega tend to have a sound of their own but certainly never shut in. I would expect the new models to be more neutral. Ages since I heard an AR though. The Mitchell will be more open sounding and a better match up for someone tuned into good CD playback.

All IMHO. Best thing is to listen to a few.The Scalford show coming up is a good place to hear the different presentations using various vinyl front ends in real world systems.

Paul.

[twotone]

Well I would say leaning on the warm an murky side or on the other hand too lean and hard. In my experience Mitchell are pretty neutral with some welcome added warmth. Older wooden box plinth designs tend to err more to the traditional vinyl warm and slightly murky sound. Rega tend to have a sound of their own but certainly never shut in. I would expect the new models to be more neutral. Ages since I heard an AR though. The Mitchell will be more open sounding and a better match up for someone tuned into good CD playback.

All IMHO. Best thing is to listen to a few.The Scalford show coming up is a good place to hear the different presentations using various vinyl front ends in real world systems.

Paul.

Thanks Paul, that's a pretty good explaination.

I would like to go to the Scalford show, read a lot about it, might be a bit dangerous to the old wallet though:eyebrows:

[MartinT]

Good vinyl is essential though, I've just bought a very early press of Hunky Dory for £54 delivered and the sound from this album on the above TT is amazing.

Hunky Dory is a simply amazing sounding record. Every collection should have a copy!

[Sonority]

These kind of 'debates' always make me smile - at least this one has stayed on the tracks and not dissolved into a flame war.

I just like to enjoy both for what they are.
On balance a cd "should" be far more accurate, especially in dynamic range. This pre supposes that the cd has been mastered correctly.
As for how much.
I have heard T/T's costing upwards of 20k sounding awful, yet a dvd player used as a digital source sounding utterly sublime in a very cheap system.
My take on it is that you need to look on it as a 'whole' and just what your ears want to hear?
I also think that the tactile package that comes with vinyl is also part of the whole experience, putting the listener into a good mood for the session.
Vinyl can sound stunning, but needs care and attention to do so.
CD can and will outperform vinyl in all aspects of production if measured - but does it sound better? Well, only your ears can decide that.
Thats the beauty of the whole HiFi thing.
Of course, everyones mileage varies on this :)

[MartinT]

On balance a cd "should" be far more accurate, especially in dynamic range.

Both CD and vinyl can have astonishing dynamic range. Don't go thinking that what's in the grooves is any less dynamic than the CD equivalent. It's all about the replay equipment.

[twotone]

Hunky Dory is a simply amazing sounding record. Every collection should have a copy!

Thanks Martin, I bought it from a guy on Discogs, turned out that it was his own copy from forty years ago (he has over 1000 sales).

I think it's a third press and sounds amazing, there are a couple of clicks on Changes but I've read that's were most noise is on the album, generally down to the popularity of that particular track.

Personally I perfer side two which is as quiet as a mouse, fav track is Queen Bitch.

HD is my favourite Bowie album, I managed to buy adecent copy of Ziggy last year and Transformer just looking for a nice Alladin Sane now.

I've had all of those albums for years (since release) but they are poor copies or ruined:doh:

"The third pressing has an unlaminated cover, no MainMan credits on the label, "Gem production" plus the Gem logo in the top right corner of the cover back, a glossy label and the words "BOBIL" and "RASPUTIN" pressed into the matrix."

http://www.bowie-collection.de/70_74.htm

[Sonority]

Martin,
Whilst I agree that both can and do posses phenomenal dynamic range, "if" both were fully maxed out and used in the correct system - them vinyl would be roughly 80db and cd 96db of range.
Of course, this is hardly, if ever the case, hence my emphasis on the word "should"
Dear loudness wars has a lot to answer for :(

Like I said, just enjoy them both for what they are, and get the synergy correct for your particular listening style and room setup.

[Audioman]

Thanks Martin, I bought it from a guy on Discogs, turned out that it was his own copy from forty years ago (he has over 1000 sales).

I think it's a third press and sounds amazing, there are a couple of clicks on Changes but I've read that's were most noise is on the album, generally down to the popularity of that particular track.

Personally I perfer side two which is as quiet as a mouse, fav track is Queen Bitch.

HD is my favourite Bowie album, I managed to buy adecent copy of Ziggy last year and Transformer just looking for a nice Alladin Sane now.

I've had all of those albums for years (since release) but they are poor copies or ruined:doh:

"The third pressing has an unlaminated cover, no MainMan credits on the label, "Gem production" plus the Gem logo in the top right corner of the cover back, a glossy label and the words "BOBIL" and "RASPUTIN" pressed into the matrix."

http://www.bowie-collection.de/70_74.htm

I've got to say £54 is steep for a third press. Wouldn't pay that for a first press to be honest ! The best sounding version is the EMI 100 180g press from the late 90's. Lucky enough to pick one up very reasonably in 2005 (having stupidly passed on it upon release).

[twotone]

I've got to say £54 is steep for a third press. Wouldn't pay that for a first press to be honest ! The best sounding version is the EMI 100 180g press from the late 90's. Lucky enough to pick one up very reasonably in 2005 (having stupidly passed on it upon release).

Hi Paul, have to agree with you but the guy was looking for £80 plus postage and there's not many good copies of these albums around without paying crazy stupid money (seen a first press go for over £500).