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View Full Version : Is the 7520 what I need?



Spod
24-03-2009, 17:53
Right then, I've read my way through the zillions of relevant pages on here, so I suspect I know the answer but I'm going to ask the question anyway as it would be good to get some confirmation before I start spending.

As I've mentioned in my intro I'm trying to breathe life into my limp, metallic Arcam CD37T CDP so I'm now thinking DAC (with the Arcam as transport). I'm after vocals that sound like the artist is singing in the room, rather than in the room playing a recording of themselves singing. But mostly I want to feel, even with medium pace music at moderate volumes, like I'm being repeatedly punched in the stomach. I get the vocals and a little of the violence with my ancient budget Sony CDP so I know the rest of the system (Nad C352 amp, Kef IQ5Se's) can deliver, but with the Sony I don't get the detail or soundstaging of the Arcam. i.e. I want the best of both worlds ... but preferably more so.

Contenders, based on price, ease of acquiring and comments on here and elsewhere, are the Beresford 7510, 7520 or the DacMagic. I get the distinct impression from reading through threads on here that the 7520 may be the closest to what I'm after and the DacMagic will be too genteel.

Or am I misguided and they will all take the sound in the wrong direction for me - I get the impression they'll sort out the vocals but are they all a bit too calm? Is there a different easily-available DAC at this price-point I should be considering instead?

Cheers for any input.

(Apologies if "being punched in the stomach" isn't the recognised term for what I'm after, but its the best description I can come up with! :confused:I'm not talking about ear-ripping shrieking or earth-shaking rumbling but inner blood-racing pit-of-the-stomach thumping :punch:.)

Covenant
24-03-2009, 18:49
Sorry I dont think you on the right track at all.
Dac's just replicate what is recorded. The differences between them are not huge and is nothing to do with bass slam.
It sounds like you need good old fashioned big floor standing speakers and a powerful amp.

Dougr33
24-03-2009, 19:08
Sorry I dont think you on the right track at all.
Dac's just replicate what is recorded. The differences between them are not huge and is nothing to do with bass slam.
It sounds like you need good old fashioned big floor standing speakers and a powerful amp.

You don't hear differences in bass reproduction in a given system between different DACs???

Spod
24-03-2009, 19:11
Its not bass in itself I'm after - the system I first heard/felt the effect on, better than I get now, involved Mission 701 standmounts with virtually zero bass compared to floorstander speakers I've used since - the lack of bass being why I don't want to go back to using the old speakers.
The amp I had then, now dead, also had a little less power than the Nad. And I never listen that loud anyway (semi-detached house volumes!).
Its more an excitement thing. The Arcam CDP successfully pulls it almost completely from the music, compared to the olde Sony.

Covenant
24-03-2009, 19:20
I still dont think you will achieve what you are after with a dac.
Have you considered active speakers?

Dougr33
24-03-2009, 19:55
Do you mean Arcam 73t? If so, I had that with your NAD. It's a very nice CD player, and while I'm loving the 7520, it certainly doesn't crush the Arcam or drastically alter the bass response. But I think it's a nice improvement overall, including bass.

Spod
24-03-2009, 20:09
Have you considered active speakers?
No, but I'll do some research, I'm thinking they're probably a tad more expensive than I'm looking to spend at this time, plus I'm rather fond of my Kefs.

It seems to me that as the Sony CDP takes me so much further along the path than the Arcam, and its a zillion miles from top-level/state-of-the-art, then logically there's further improvements to be made at this point in the chain.

Question is, will a DAC go in the right direction or back towards the Arcam in limpness. Or will it at least have the Sony excitement/natural vocals while improving soundstage and detail, which would be nice.
And if the DAC would go in right direction, which is the better one for me?


Do you mean Arcam 73t? If so, I had that with your NAD. It's a very nice CD player, and while I'm loving the 7520, it certainly doesn't crush the Arcam or drastically alter the bass response. But I think it's a nice improvement overall, including bass.
Yes, sorry, 73t :doh: (Sunderland won the FACup in '37 and '73, I always get them mixed up!). I really don't like the Arcam's sound. I was hoping the 7520 would change it, bringing natural vocals and boosting the excitement.

NRG
24-03-2009, 20:46
I don't agree with DACs just replicate the sound and there is very little difference between them. They can have a very significant impact on the sound and the only reason they may sound the same is due to data sheet engineering. I would suggest to the OP to take a look at some of the TDA kits available on Ebay as they will give a very different presentation to the BurrBrown, Wolfsen etc etc DAC's. A well sorted TDA based DAC will do exactly what the OP is looking for.

Spod
24-03-2009, 21:09
I don't agree with DACs just replicate the sound and there is very little difference between them. They can have a very significant impact on the sound and the only reason they may sound the same is due to data sheet engineering. I would suggest to the OP to take a look at some of the TDA kits available on Ebay as they will give a very different presentation to the BurrBrown, Wolfsen etc etc DAC's. A well sorted TDA based DAC will do exactly what the OP is looking for.
Sounds highly promising, but... wot? Tried sticking TDA into ebay and came up telephones, extension cables and a 4 drawer freezer.:scratch:

Covenant
24-03-2009, 21:11
From the first post Spod was talking about 'getting punched in the stomach'.
If his system doesnt give that now a change of dac wont give it. Speakers that can move a lot of air will.

Covenant
24-03-2009, 21:16
In fact Spod what you need is a sub like my Velodyne DD15. That punches you in the stomach then slaps you around the chops with a wet kipper.

Covenant
24-03-2009, 21:29
You don't hear differences in bass reproduction in a given system between different DACs???

Of course, I wouldnt be changing op-amps if I didnt expect to get an improvement in bass reproduction and at higher frequencies, but the differences are fairly subtle. Spod seems to be after something more....

Spod
24-03-2009, 21:59
In fact Spod what you need is a sub like my Velodyne DD15. That punches you in the stomach then slaps you around the chops with a wet kipper.That's just a smidgeon more expensive than a DAC. Or my entire system. And car.
But even with that sub, the Arcam CDP would still just deliver the wet kipper!

But bear in mind, smaller speakers with considerably less bass through a feebler amp did used to give a large slice of the effect I was after at moderate volumes. Unfortunately it also gave a lot of mains hum, no really low bass and nowhere near as much detail as I know other setups can deliver. Then the amp died. With a bang and a fizz and the shopping began...grow the bass, expand the detail, keep or grow the excitement, keep vocals natural.


Sounds highly promising, but... wot? Tried sticking TDA into ebay and came up telephones, extension cables and a 4 drawer freezer.:scratch:OK, done a bit more research. "Moodlab Concept" any good?

NRG
24-03-2009, 22:03
Search for TDA1541a DAC kit on Ebay. You'll need to be able to solder and put the kit into a case, if this is not within your capabilities then see if you can find somebody locally to do it for you. The TDA is especially strong on vocals and has a much richer presentation than modern DAC chips.

I think your are after bass punch as well, this is the bass produced around 250Hz-ish upwards. Any good stand mounted 'speaker (given good sensitivity and an adequate room) can deliver Bass in this region with authority. Floor standers tend to deliver Bass lower down the frequency range but not necessarily with punch, they can drone and be one note if improperly partnered or placed in too small a room.

Dougr33
24-03-2009, 22:06
Of course, I wouldnt be changing op-amps if I didnt expect to get an improvement in bass reproduction and at higher frequencies, but the differences are fairly subtle. Spod seems to be after something more....

Agreed!

Spod
24-03-2009, 22:28
I think your are after bass punch as well, this is the bass produced around 250Hz-ish upwards. Any good stand mounted 'speaker (given good sensitivity and an adequate room) can deliver Bass in this region with authority.That sounds feasible, I was thinking upper bass may be a factor.


You'll need to be able to solder and put the kit into a case, if this is not within your capabilities then see if you can find somebody locally to do it for you.I'm a software geek, solder to me is the same as garlic to a vampire! Fortunately, I know one or two more hardwarey types at work, I shall have a chat with them and see what I'd have to do to twist their arms before shopping. Cheers.

StanleyB
25-03-2009, 03:06
And I might then even let you borrow a TC-7520 to compare against your TDA1541 based DAC in your own system :).

NRG
25-03-2009, 07:48
Would that be possible Stan? I have to say I've been curious with all the posts about the 7520, I'd like to know how it stacks up against my DAC experiment....wouldn't want to put you to any trouble though...

StanleyB
25-03-2009, 08:12
Would that be possible Stan? I have to say I've been curious with all the posts about the 7520, I'd like to know how it stacks up against my DAC experiment....wouldn't want to put you to any trouble though...
The offer is for Spod once he has had his DAC built;).

NRG
25-03-2009, 16:54
Awww go on Stan, I've built a TDA1541 dac as well ;) But I understand....can't have some old 1980's technology put together by a DIY bodger outshining the new stuff! :) Only teasing.......no offense meant. :smoking:

leo
25-03-2009, 19:01
:lolsign:

The Grand Wazoo
26-03-2009, 09:38
I'm after vocals that sound like the artist is singing in the room, rather than in the room playing a recording of themselves singing. But mostly I want to feel, even with medium pace music at moderate volumes, like I'm being repeatedly punched in the stomach.



Save your money. Wait till the neighbours go out & turn it up!!
That'll help with the latter, but not the former. To cure that, you need to have the singer in the room.

James G
27-03-2009, 06:43
I'm after vocals that sound like the artist is singing in the room, rather than in the room playing a recording of themselves singing. But mostly I want to feel, even with medium pace music at moderate volumes, like I'm being repeatedly punched in the stomach.

I've got the IQ5's (older model) connected to a tube amp. I ended up getting a small, cheap subwoofer to fill out the bottom. It was the more cost effective solution for me and I don't have room in my apartment for big speakers. Plus I wanted to keep the KEFs because I like the way vocals, horns etc. sound through them (for the price, that is).

Maybe later I will drop a JBL or so in that sub and reinforce/foam it out.

tizer2000uk
27-03-2009, 09:57
The character of the 7520 does lend itself well to vocals although like the others have said, your other components might need an overhaul, the speakers sound like the weaker link in the chain so start there first.

Spod
27-03-2009, 12:57
And I might then even let you borrow a TC-7520 to compare against your TDA1541 based DAC in your own system :).
If I went through learning how to become an electronics engineer, working out which end of a soldering iron to hold etc., there's now way I'd want to compare it in case it turns out I would have been better off buying the 7250 in the first place!
But the 1541 kit is scary, methinks its not going to happen! (Shame, everything I read about the 1541A is good!)


Save your money. Wait till the neighbours go out & turn it up!!They never go out. Ever. EVER! :steam: Anti-social so-and-so's.


I've got the IQ5's (older model) connected to a tube amp. I ended up getting a small, cheap subwoofer to fill out the bottom. It was the more cost effective solution for me and I don't have room in my apartment for big speakers. Plus I wanted to keep the KEFs because I like the way vocals, horns etc. sound through them (for the price, that is).
A small musical sub is something I'm thinking of for the future as well, really like the sound of the Kefs (depite their apparent unpopularity here!) so they're staying, just there's not a lot of room in the front room at the moment as I also have a 7.1 setup in there as well, every nook and cranny is spoken for!

The current mission however is to try and save the soul-stripping Arcam, just a matter of choosing the right DAC.

The Grand Wazoo
27-03-2009, 15:18
They never go out. Ever. EVER! :steam: Anti-social so-and-so's.


Well then..........turn it right up & drive them out!
Just kidding..........I wouldn't dream of condoning such behaviour

NRG
28-03-2009, 08:37
If I went through learning how to become an electronics engineer, working out which end of a soldering iron to hold etc., there's now way I'd want to compare it in case it turns out I would have been better off buying the 7250 in the first place!
But the 1541 kit is scary, methinks its not going to happen! (Shame, everything I read about the 1541A is good!)

Well I'm almost tempted to say I'll build it for you just to prove a point...;) :eyebrows:

leo
28-03-2009, 12:36
You'll be struggling to beat a well implemented TDA1541A especially in the vocals

The only real downside is that these chips are more expensive than most delta Sigma based ones to implement
These chips require three different supplies alone, also most of the circuitry is external rather than crammed inside the chip like most newer devices.
Having things external is a bonus for the diyer but more expensive

Unless your a diyer or you know somebody who is, a ready available commercial unit based around the newer chips would probably be the safest and certainly the cheapest option, don't assume it'll beat the ole classic though, I've known people think this before and after listening to my TD1541A based dac they was left quite shocked;)

Spod
28-03-2009, 14:04
Well I'm almost tempted to say I'll build it for you just to prove a point...;) :eyebrows:Well if you'e offering;)


You'll be struggling to beat a well implemented TDA1541A especially in the vocals
Doesn't have to beat a tda1514a, it just has to beat the Arcam. And if a 10 year-old £100 sony cdp can do it then surely a modern dac can.

With every day I have another look at the 7520 page....think about clicking...then remember Doug's utterly condemning comment "it certainly doesn't crush the Arcam" and go back to pondering the Moodlab and its tda1543....

Hopefully I'll make decision before the Sony finally pops its clogs.

leo
28-03-2009, 14:33
The 7520 or even the 7510 would be the cheapest solution, I wonder why the Arcam is so bad.
Only other alternative is to have the Arcam modified, shame your not into diy or a spot of tinkering

Dougr33
28-03-2009, 14:59
...then remember Doug's utterly condemning comment "it certainly doesn't crush the Arcam" and go back to pondering the Moodlab and its tda1543....

"utterly condemning"?

Just to clarify, the 7520 is a very nice upgrade over the Arcam in my system. But I really liked the Arcam, and it sounded great in my system(s), so that why I said "didn't crush".

Spod
28-03-2009, 15:55
"utterly condemning"?

Just to clarify, the 7520 is a very nice upgrade over the Arcam in my system. But I really liked the Arcam, and it sounded great in my system(s), so that why is said "didn't crush".See - you're condemning it again! As your ears like the Arcam then I'll have to get a DAC you don't like! ;)
(actually, just worries me that you describe the 7520 improving over the Arcam, rather than changing the sound/character which is what I'm after, makes me think it might give the same vocal tainting/limpness I, but seemingly few others, hear from the CDP)


The 7520 or even the 7510 would be the cheapest solution, I wonder why the Arcam is so bad.
Only other alternative is to have the Arcam modified, shame your not into diy or a spot of tinkering
Considered the 7510 but if I liked but I'd instantly want the 7520, especially as I've seen it described as having more punch.
7520 and Moodlab Concept roughly the same price.

I suspect I'll end up getting the 7520 but not until I've had a lengthy dithering procrastination!

jon1
28-03-2009, 19:11
See - you're condemning it again! As your ears like the Arcam then I'll have to get a DAC you don't like! ;)
(actually, just worries me that you describe the 7520 improving over the Arcam, rather than changing the sound/character which is what I'm after, makes me think it might give the same vocal tainting/limpness I, but seemingly few others, hear from the CDP)


Considered the 7510 but if I liked but I'd instantly want the 7520, especially as I've seen it described as having more punch.
7520 and Moodlab Concept roughly the same price.

I suspect I'll end up getting the 7520 but not until I've had a lengthy dithering procrastination!




Hi spod


I have the 7510..mod if you what a demo..live on the outskirts of middlesbrough...if it will help you to make up your mind:eyebrows:




jon

Dougr33
28-03-2009, 22:24
Okay.... over the CD73t, I think the 7520 has lower, tighter bass, as well as more lifelike vocals. That's all I've got for ya!

NRG
28-03-2009, 22:25
Well if you'e offering;)


...rather than changing the sound/character which is what I'm after, makes me think it might give the same vocal tainting/limpness I, but seemingly few others, hear from the CDP)

Drop me a PM, let's discuss it...

NRG
28-03-2009, 22:41
This discussion reminds me of a turntable one I had a few years ago about direct drive/idler vs belt drive...my position was of total defence for belt drive, nothing could deflect me from its obvious superiority to DD...and yet when I finally accepted the challenge laid before me and went out and tried DD for myself I realised I was wrong and had to concede that DD/idler was better...it was a profound moment...

My recent experiments with the TDA141 have the same implications...you need to try it for yourself.

Spod
30-03-2009, 16:47
Latest news on this is that after much cogitation and procrastination and angst, I finally placed an order for the 7520 at lunch-time today.

From reading around I do get the impression my ears would have been more suited to a tda1541a based design but they're not available ready-made at the same (or any) price and as an unproven noob to this board I would have been utterly uncomfortable trying to twist arms to acquire or loan or ask for direct help constructing one (hence the lack of PM Neal!)

But I had to do something to change the Arcam sound and the 7520 seems the most painless route. After all, can't make it any worse.....can it???:uhho:

I shall, of course, report back when its run in and I can have a proper comparison. And despite none of you giving me a totally unreserved recommendation for it, I shall nevertheless completely blame you all if I don't like it!;)

But anyway, cheers for all your thoughts, suggestions and time.

(Incidentally, anyone know what courier is likely to deliver it, so I can tell the goods-in department at work to expect it?)

StanleyB
30-03-2009, 17:12
I shall, of course, report back when its run in and I can have a proper comparison. And despite none of you giving me a totally unreserved recommendation for it, I shall nevertheless completely blame you all if I don't like it!;)

Well there is a Naim CD5 going in the Classifieds from another AoS member who bought a TC-7520 recently:eyebrows:.


STan

The Vinyl Adventure
30-03-2009, 17:23
hmmm im not sure weather or not to blow stans bubble on that one or not.....


(dreaming of linn majik ds thats about to go in the place of cd5)


the 7520 is in the upstairs system... it does sound jolly good though!! and i have just been up there listening to it in preferance of the naim system.... but thats more down to enjoying a different sound as aposed to a better one!

The Vinyl Adventure
30-03-2009, 17:24
p.s cheers for the cd5 ad plug.....

trailer
30-03-2009, 17:33
I'm seriously considering selling my CD5x and Flat Cap and getting a transport.

NRG
30-03-2009, 18:57
No problems 'spod', I hope you enjoy the 7520, I'm sure it'll make an improvement.

Seems there's a small CD5 club around these parts! I also have one with FCII, stopped using it about two years ago when I went the Squeezebox and external DAC (MF A3.24) route. Must get around to selling it as well!

--Neal

The Vinyl Adventure
30-03-2009, 19:11
perhaps soon more of a used-to-own-cd-5 club
i dont know what to do with my flat cap 2 should i keep it incase i get a stageline and or headline or should i be senssible and get shot and keep the bank balance a bit more sencible
ahh the dilema
i just god damn hope i like the ds when its in my lounge...
aaa im all of a sudden scared of turning my back on me little shiny disks

trailer
30-03-2009, 19:27
I was hoping that they might bring a transport out of their own.

The Vinyl Adventure
30-03-2009, 19:54
have you looked into the linn ds stuff? i know it (almost) nagates the use of a standac and would mean a general shift away from cd playing but it is very very good

trailer
30-03-2009, 20:02
It's the StanDAC that made me consider selling the CD5x. I'm running a hard drive based system at the moment into a 7520 via an AppleTV. It's just that I'm using an iPhone as a controller. I need something a bit more practical for spinning CDs as and when I need but get the same results as I do with the Atv/7520 set up I have at the moment.

The Vinyl Adventure
30-03-2009, 20:35
iphone can control linn ds too and from what i have read sounds better than a hell of a lot of streamers/dac options as well as wiping the floor with all most all cd players depending on when ds you buy. the majik is such a step up from my cd 5 i was nearly sick with exitement ... i would certainly recomend a demo!
im getting mine from uhes in gloucestershire they are very good at helping you out with demo's i would think if you asked them nicely they might come to your house with one...

The Vinyl Adventure
30-03-2009, 20:36
although that all said it doesnt solve this disk spinning thing....

the softwere i use for ripping to flac is so quick i cant see it bugging me!

trailer
30-03-2009, 20:42
iphone can control linn ds too and from what i have read sounds better than a hell of a lot of streamers/dac options as well as wiping the floor with all most all cd players depending on when ds you buy. the majik is such a step up from my cd 5 i was nearly sick with exitement ... i would certainly recomend a demo!
im getting mine from uhes in gloucestershire they are very good at helping you out with demo's i would think if you asked them nicely they might come to your house with one...
I think they might be too keen for a sale coming up to the north of Scotland but you never know!
thanks for the suggestion by the way.

The Vinyl Adventure
30-03-2009, 20:47
i know they have customers all over europe and as far even as new zeland so scotland would be a good deal closer than they have been...

trailer
30-03-2009, 20:52
i know they have customers all over europe and as far even as new zeland so scotland would be a good deal closer than they have been...

My local Naim dealer used to deal with Linn too when I first started out on the long and winding road. I seem to remember they had a fairly aggressive sales policy so alot of dealers dropped them. It's funny how times change. I'd be'd more than willing to give them a spin again.

The Vinyl Adventure
30-03-2009, 21:02
www.uhes.co.uk

give these guys a ring and have a chat with them the worst they can say is that they couldnt come so far for a demo. but even if they dont the level of knowledge they have on the linn ds subject is quite fantastic!

oh and if you do talk to them say hamish sent you, they are good mates of mine and they do aprieciate me plugging them

The Vinyl Adventure
30-03-2009, 21:02
www.uhes.co.uk

give these guys a ring and have a chat with them the worst they can say is that they couldnt come so far for a demo. but even if they dont the level of knowledge they have on the linn ds subject is quite fantastic!

oh and if you do talk to them say hamish sent you, they are good mates of mine and they do aprieciate me plugging them