Comparison: Mike New bearing with Vantage modified bearing

[worrasf]

I have started a new thread for this as I know folk are keen to hear my findings as I think this is likely to be the only comparison of these 2 items. It's a bit long-winded but please stick with it.

It's important to clarify for those not familiar with these items that the Mike New (MN)bearing is a bespoke item constructed "from scratch" whereas the Vantage Audio (VA) bearing is a stock Technics bearing that has been modified by VA by the addition of an oil well, improved thrust pad and thrust pad support. Mike does make a bearing support plate but after much consideration I decided not to use one or emulate one as it adds 6mm to the platter height and I really like the look of the platter as it is. Remember I have the VA platter mod with bonded copper top plate. For this listening I did not use any mat as I have found the VA sounded better with record straight onto the platter.

In photo 1 the MN is on the left and the VA on the right.

There is a significant difference in cost. The MN bearing is $625 AUD (£430.13 GBP) including postage from Australia - the VA bearing is from £79. The MN bearing is currently available (limited stock) the VA bearing is currently unavailable.

The VA bearing fits exactly the same as the stock Technics bearing. I have commented previously on my very positive experiences with it http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10468&highlight=vantage+audio+bearing

The MN bearing is essentially the same but you need to ensure the component tags on the underside of the PCB around the bearing are snipped flush with the solder so as not to foul the bearing and the motor cover plate is redundant as the new bearing flanges are thicker than the stock item. All this an more is covered in the excellent fitting instructions on Mike's website. Time for removal of VA bearing, fitting of MN bearing and re-setup to listening to vinyl about 1.5 hours.

So how does it sound?
Having listened for about 3 hours and to various music genre I was trying to think of a single word to sum it up - but I can't. The nearest I can get to is "pitch-perfect timing". This little phrase seriously underplays just how good the MN is.
There is an immediate improvement in sound stage and imaging - presentation is rock-solid and the speakers disappear to a greater degree. There is a marked improvement in "clarity" across the whole frequency range - the music previously sounded a little recessed and "smeared".
The more tracks I played from Antonio Forcione - through Dire Straits, Pink Floyd to Bob Dylan the more I found myself enjoying what I was hearing. In straight forward HiFi terms the bass is better controlled with no hint of boom or bloom and is easier to follow. Plucked strings have better attack. The resonance in guitar slaps and rim shots is striking as is the delicacy of wire brush on snare drums.
Then you put it all together on a track like ISIS (Dylan, Desire) and you know everything is just so right.

What's interesting is when I first started listening while there was no doubt that the MN was an improvement on the VA I was thinking that I would be writing a review that suggested that while the MN was "better" it was not "that much better" given the cost difference. However, as track followed track I find that this actually is not the case. The MN is a step-change better and having heard it it would be very difficult to go back.

Another thing, the MN most definitely sounds better with a record weight whereas the VA most definitely did not. However, even without a weight it still outperformed the VA.

Now, clearly the above has to be taken in context - I still firmly believe the VA modded bearing is a very good and cost-effective way of improving the SQ of the Technics deck it's just that the MN bearing is so much better in every area - PRaT, detail, finesse, "believability" and above all the grinometer :) it all depends on "bang for your buck" and how much hard earned dollar you can lay out.

While I have not done this myself I am of the opinion that for those with a stock 1200/1210 and tonearm probably the biggest improvement is SQ in all areas would be to fit a MN bearing and forego tonearm/cartridge/mat etc swaps (the money soon adds up) in the first instance. While it might not be a "sexy" upgrade as your mates can't see the hunk of metal hidden inside I suspect it would be the wise move in terms of getting the most music out of the deck.

I may get a thin mat (like the OL upgrade mat) to see if that makes any difference. At this stage I'm not minded to change platters - I like the VA platter and I think there is a strong synergy with the VA PCB mod. Also as said earlier I just like the look of the Technics platter.

Anyway, there it is - a bit of a ramble but take from it what you will. Mike says the bearing "improves" after 50 hours so I'm leaving it spinning over night and will see what tomorrow brings.

Steve

[chris@panteg]

Very good Stephen , I would certainly buy one but just paid council tax and a year's road tax , emptypockets.com .

Enjoy !

[synsei]

Sounds like a good result Steve... :)

[worrasf]

Sounds like a good result Steve... :)

Yes Dave - I'm very pleased (and relieved). Any future changes however I will absolutely have to "audition" first as I'm pretty sure I'm now on the back slope of the " diminishing returns" curve.
Steve

[cuddles]

I'm in agreement with your findings Stephen - I had my bearing just before Christmas and I heard straight away the improvements you've described.

I also like the look of the 1210 platter so I doubt that I'll change that.

[DSJR]

Silly question, but how much worse is the TD150 and in what way - I'm expecting it to be a bit wishy-washy in comparison, but would appreciate a comment if you have the time please Steve :)

[worrasf]

Silly question, but how much worse is the TD150 and in what way - I'm expecting it to be a bit wishy-washy in comparison, but would appreciate a comment if you have the time please Steve :)

Very perceptive Dave - I'm impressed!
it's funny you ask that specific question. I had not listened to " system 2" for several weeks as I was busy with " system 1" but I did fire it up last week and was underwhelmed which came as a bit of a disappointment because previously I felt it could hold its own and punch above its weight. Even before the MN bearing addition it sounded thin and lack lustre - dull really.
Steve

[Mike_New]

Hi Stephen,
Thank you for your independent review versus the modified bearing. I would dare add that all the other modified versions would similarly compare.
The whole secret (and cost) of the bearing is in the extremely high precision fit and surface finish of the spindle/bearing interface. And as I have said before it is just not possible to reduce the cost of this individual fitting on short production runs.

I am very much in agreement with your observation that it would be more advisable to forego spending money on all the many options which can only offer marginal sonic improvement, if any at all, in the absence of a good quality bearing. And put the money towards the one item which will most certainly make the single largest improvement. The single most important factor in any rotating system is the integrity of the bearing design.

It may be fairly argued by some that removal of the Power Supply is equally important, and I cannot disagree. However the vary tight high precision and smooth fit of my bearing, will I believe mitigate against some of the vibration that maybe cause by the onboard transformer.

Incidentally Stephen, try removing the top black cover, this closely follows the contours of the bell shaped platter (underneath) and could possibly generate interference pressure waves within the space. I think Martin was the first to try this with positive results.

[worrasf]

Hello Mike
Yes agree about the PSU but of course the stock PSU can easily be externalised at very little cost and to good effect. In my case I have completely filled the empty PSU housing with rigid and dimensionally stable silicone putty for the reasons you describe. Richard at VA recommended this.

Regarding removal of the motor top plate - I'm reluctant to try this at present - the platter - spindle fit is so precise it's now very difficult to remove the platter as I have the bonded copper top plate. VA supplied a pair of lifting hooks to slip underneath which worked fine before but now the only way I can remove the platter is with a large suction pad (a la removing dents from car body panels) - it works fine but marks the lacquer on the platter and also breaks the interference fit with the bearing so unless the platter has to come off for some other reason I'm leaving it in situ.

Steve

[chris@panteg]

Crickey Steve I struggle to get the platter off as it is ?

Richard told me the plastic motor cover is designed to minimize any air pressure/resistance + to reduce the bell cavity effect , take the cover off and rap the platter with your knuckle , it will clang and ring , put the cover back on and it reduces this effect

Of course this is no issue if you have a funk or MN platter .

[worrasf]

Thanks Chris - I'll definitely leave it in situ.

Steve

[DSJR]

Very perceptive Dave - I'm impressed!
it's funny you ask that specific question. I had not listened to " system 2" for several weeks as I was busy with " system 1" but I did fire it up last week and was underwhelmed which came as a bit of a disappointment because previously I felt it could hold its own and punch above its weight. Even before the MN bearing addition it sounded thin and lack lustre - dull really.
Steve

Thanks Steve. Any lack of focus could be in the Thorens, depending on the plinth and mat used - here we go again :) But a typical good working Quad 303 should sound almost velvety in my experience - can't speak for the net Audio 33 though. The JR149's always squeaked to me, even when new (the well kown bextrene quack of the B110 and tinsel T27 having a lot to answer for in these miniatures), but should you have the time away from your demanding profession, I wonder what the Stirling "3/5A V2-esque" kits might offer. A pal has replaced some Rega RS3's with a pair of fully built Stirling HS88's, which apart from the screwed rear baffles, are the same as the official BBC licensed 3/5A V2 model I'm told. For £700 tops, he tells me the sound is so much better and more refined than any LS3/5A he's ever owned, most of which would be well out of spec by now (and that includes the identical drivere'd JR149's)..

[worrasf]

here we go again :)

Does this merry go round never stop :steam:

I will need to spend some time with system 2 (have got a couple of weeks leave in March) - it has been much neglected. I might even try the DV 10x5 instead of the AKG Supernova :sofa:

To be fair, system 1 is now at such a level it's not that surprising it's a bit lack lustre - nothing a bit of time and application wont sort though ;)

Steve

[mido]

Steve, are you planning to sell the Vantage Audio bearing on now that you have upgraded?

Hope this is not seen as being cheeky, I can't seem to get any response from the Vantage Audio website, I was hoping to try their feet too.

Frank

[worrasf]

Steve, are you planning to sell the Vantage Audio bearing on now that you have upgraded?

Hope this is not seen as being cheeky, I can't seem to get any response from the Vantage Audio website, I was hoping to try their feet too.

Frank

Hello Frank
I'm afraid an earlier bird has already purchased it :violin:

Steve

[mido]

Hello Frank
I'm afraid an earlier bird has already purchased it :violin:

Steve

:lol:

Ah, ok thanks for letting me know anyway.

[chris@panteg]

I have a feeling I know who that earlier bird is ;)

[synsei]

I have a feeling I know who that earlier bird is ;)

*cough*

[chris@panteg]

*cough*

I hope you like it , a subtle but noticeable improvement .

[Mike_New]

The last of the Bearings.
Since Stephen started this thread with his comparison of a modified standard bearing against my alltogether new design I very quickly sold 2 more.
So I now have only 3 bearings available, and they may be the last as interest is waining.

[synsei]

Never say never Mike. Maybe they will be the last for now but once the economy picks up and people actually have money in their pockets once again, then who knows eh? Do you really intend to leave DC's Timestep concern as the only source of upgrade bearings for the Techie? His methods may be questionable at times but you have to admire his tenacity and downright bloody mindedness to stay at or near the top of the game. From where I'm sitting, with Vantage Audio's future seemingly in limbo and the possibility that you may be going the same way also, DC will be the last man standing in this market.

[Mike_New]

Thanks for the encouragement Dave,
No, I certainly have no intention of giving up. It's just that such a high quality product does have a defined customer base.
What I will do is to offer the same kind of deal as I did last May and get in some deposits before commiting to making them.
I would like to make it easier for people to buy one by accepting 50% part payments but you know what would happen. Unless anyone can think of a way of doing this.

[synsei]

I would like to make it easier for people to buy one by accepting 50% part payments but you know what would happen. Unless anyone can think of a way of doing this.

You would probably need to get tough Mike and have written into the T&C's that if a buyer pulls out of the deal they lose their deposit. A risky move for sure but it would definitely weed out the timewasters and still go some way towards compensating you for the production outlay. It is possible to be a nice guy in business but you also need to protect yourself and your business and that requires a much tougher approach ;)

I have not heard a Techie which sports one of your bearings as yet Mike so I am unaware of the level of performance which can be gained. I hope to rectify this situation of course, and I am sure it will involve buying one at some point, but that won't be for a while yet as I have just blown the budget on a valve amp, a Bushmaster DAC and a LAD GAJ828 Direct Drive turntable , oh and Stephens VA bearing of course:eyebrows:

[Mike_New]

I have not heard a Techie which sports one of your bearings as yet Mike so I am unaware of the level of performance which can be gained. :

This is very much the problem, with SL1200s spread all around the world it is very difficult for people to believe the vast improvement in sonics when my Bearing is fitted. They want to hear the results first which I guess is not unreasonable. Perhaps I should offer the "If not totally satified return the product and get your money back" : gaurantee!!

[synsei]

This is very much the problem, with SL1200s spread all around the world it is very difficult for people to believe the vast improvement in sonics when my Bearing is fitted. They want to hear the results first which I guess is not unreasonable. Perhaps I should offer the "If not totally satified return the product and get your money back" : gaurantee!!

This isn't the issue for me as there are plenty of members on AoS who have bought and fitted your bearing and state that it is excellent, and that's good enough for me. Will a money back guarantee draw in more punters? I doubt it somehow as most who have bought your bearing have done so after either hearing what it can do it on a friends TT or purely through recommendations, and frankly the product is so much better than anything else on the market it would be unnecessary I feel.

I wondered whether you have any wriggle room with your margins? If you do, have you considered approaching an established retailer in Europe or the UK to market the bearing for you? It may mean a slight price hike (after all the dealer will want his cut) but it may also pay off in the long run with increased sales. I can think of at least one chap who is a member on AoS who would probably jump at the chance to exclusively stock your bearing. Of course the terms of the arrangement would need to be satisfactory for both parties ;)

[Mike_New]

Hi Dave
I hear what you are saying, but the average retailer/reseller wants at least 50% on end user buy price. This would make the price even higher.
What you must realise is that on all the pre-amps, main amps, tone arms, and all the other components that you buy are marked up by 50% in order that the retailer (the DCs of this world) can make a living.
Now do not get me wrong, I was, in a former life, the group technical director of a multi million dollar multi national company, based in the UK; so I have great empathy for the commercial aspects of business and know how difficult it must be to make a buck in the UK at this time.
It's just that if I use an intermediary agent /supplier the price must increase which it what none of us wants. The Bearing does not require service or support so having the extra cost slug does not make sense.

[synsei]

50% :stalks:

I obviously have a lot to learn about business...

[chris@panteg]

50% :stalks:

I obviously have a lot to learn about business...

I always thought it was 33% ? DC didn't sell Mike's bearing for £800 did he ?

I guess it can vary , I do know that double glazed windows and doors can have a mark up of up to 76% depending on the vendor , that's a scary but true fact .

[synsei]

I should perhaps stop intruding on territory I know nothing about Chris... :lol:

[chris@panteg]

Lol not sure I do but we live in rip off Britain .

[Mike_New]

Chris,
It is not a case of rip-off-Britain, how much does a big Mac cost???
And they sell hundreds of millions of them a year!!!!

[chris@panteg]

Chris,
It is not a case of rip-off-Britain, how much does a big Mac cost???
And they sell hundreds of millions of them a year!!!!

With free horsemeat ,what a bargain !!! I don't know how much a Big Mac cost's but whatever it is it's too much ! Nasty things .

No Mike , rip-off Britain is a very real thing , everyone is at it and you know it .

[NRG]

I always thought it was 33% ? DC didn't sell Mike's bearing for £800 did he ?

I guess it can vary , I do know that double glazed windows and doors can have a mark up of up to 76% depending on the vendor , that's a scary but true fact .

Tell me about it.

Everest sales guy a few years back couldn't get rid of him, prices started at 18K for the house, all windows and doors plus patio....after an hour of his inane rambling we where down to 3.5K after all the discounts and show home stuff....I politely got up and showed him the door...if they can still make money at 3.5K then they where taking the mick...they didn't get my business. Funnily enough we went with another company who immediately pitched in at 4.5K but would only move a few hundred quid...they came accross as no bull and honest so we went with them!

[chris@panteg]

Tell me about it.

Everest sales guy a few years back couldn't get rid of him, prices started at 18K for the house, all windows and doors plus patio....after an hour of his inane rambling we where down to 3.5K after all the discounts and show home stuff....I politely got up and showed him the door...if they can still make money at 3.5K then they where taking the mick...they didn't get my business. Funnily enough we went with another company who immediately pitched in at 4.5K but would only move a few hundred quid...they came accross as no bull and honest so we went with them!

Yep , sounds about right Neal , I worry about old folks getting bullied by such as these .

Still this thread is about bearings so I guess we should disscuss this in 'pet hates' :)

[worrasf]

The last of the Bearings.
Since Stephen started this thread with his comparison of a modified standard bearing against my alltogether new design I very quickly sold 2 more.
So I now have only 3 bearings available, and they may be the last as interest is waining.

I presume my cut is in the post Mike ;)
Steve

[Mike_New]

A bottle of excellent red if you pay the postage.

[JazzBones]

I always thought it was 33% ? DC didn't sell Mike's bearing for £800 did he ?

I guess it can vary , I do know that double glazed windows and doors can have a mark up of up to 76% depending on the vendor , that's a scary but true fact .

Chris, I bought my Mike New replacement bearing, brand new, from DC of Sound Hi Fi on 22nd December 2009 for the total outlay of UK£399.00p, as you can see from this I was a very early adopter of Mike's bearing and its still performing perfectly today now matched to its partner the Mike New bearing base plate and copper ali platter. I have often skyted about how good this bearing and combo is. You can tell from date of purchase that it was definitely not sold at UK£800.00p I have the invoice as proof. At the time of purchase for this item in the UK it was the 'new kid on the block' who was enthusiastically selling them as a 'bearing worthy of a UK£10,000.00p turntable, he was right on that score and I bought one :)

I'm not defending DC, persona grata, because obviously there's acrimony as documented too many a time on AoS. I have not been party to both sides of the story but have obviously seen the various posts. I have now dealt direct with both Mike and DC and both gents have given me very good service in the past and as long as I get 'good service' and at a good price I'm not going to write anyone off, also I'm a cantankerous old codger at times!

Back to the subject of the Mike New bearing, its still doing the job intended three plus years later. I am wondering how long a user life the other alternatives on the market will stack up? I seriously considered buying a second MN bearing as a back up, not knowing what vintage Mike is :D but I then realised the little bronze bugger will out live me, the bearing folks not Mike :)

[worrasf]

A bottle of excellent red if you pay the postage.


Tempting :hmm:

[Mike_New]

Hi Ron,
Actually i'm 74 going on 40 so yes there will come a time when I need tro give up my workshop and go fishing.

[Nigel]

Even more respect for you then, Mike. Your high quality bearings have helped Technics users reach a higher standard of vinyl replay.

[worrasf]

Silly question, but how much worse is the TD150 and in what way - I'm expecting it to be a bit wishy-washy in comparison, but would appreciate a comment if you have the time please Steve :)

David
Now a much better item.
Have reset suspension, added acrylic armboard and installed the DV 10x5 - took the opportunity to refurb the plinth and support on SDS squares.

Altogether a lot tighter with better timing and focus.

Steve

[DSJR]

I just wanted to quickly determine the difference between "mark-up" and "margin" on the retail item.. 50% markup on trade price approximates to 33% margin for the dealer...

Only the bigger UK chains (one especially) insists on larger margins for certain products (sales commission for the salesmen) and these products can give over 50% margins - used to be only on cables, but other main products now have to deliver this too I understand. The smaller dealer has nothing like these huge margins from many of the popular brands discussed here, so please bear this in mind when asking for deals :)

[DSJR]

David
Now a much better item.
Have reset suspension, added acrylic armboard and installed the DV 10x5 - took the opportunity to refurb the plinth and support on SDS squares.

Altogether a lot tighter with better timing and focus.

Steve

Looks great. It'll never have the drive and verve of the Techie I suspect, but should sound clear and with "air" aplenty with luck :)