View Full Version : Amp or dac for best improvement
Hi guys,
Could you offer some advice. I am looking to make a single step upgrade with the best performance increase to sound quality to my existing set up.
I currently own a sonos zp 90 I play music through from iPad/iphone5/iMac and wd media player. I have a rega Mira original amp and b and w 603 series 2 or 3 (not sure which) floor standers.
I would like to increase the sound, but can only afford the one item at the mo.
I am thinking of an upgrade from my original Mira amp to the new rega r which seems to get good reviews or the rega dac.
I would consider the exposure but can't afford new prices in either their dac or 2010s amp. (If anyone has one for sale second hand please get in touch)
If any one knows of a better combination through experience of my speakers which I would like to keep then please add your suggestions.
Thanks in advance to any one who add an opinion or advice
Cheers
Stu.
How much do you have to spend? I use the same Sonos through a beresford bushmaster and previously a Gatorized caiman. Both made a great improvement to the Sonos though I do prefer the bushmaster out of the 2- bigger more natural sound and great bass.
hifi_dave
02-02-2013, 10:06
Don't buy an Exposure without comparing it against your Mira.
My first question would be are you fully committed to Sonos and is sound quality your overriding priority? If it is then my two pennies would be this . . .
Having tried Sonos and being a previous owner of a Squeezebox Touch, neither matched the sound quality of a good computer based system running JRiver playing FLAC files, certainly that was my experience and others here have found the same? JRiver is now accepted to be outclassing anything a standard MAC platform is producing *if you believe the reports* on the Computeraudiophile forum (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/forum/), which in the main has more MAC users than PC users, but this trend is changing due to the reported superior performance of JRiver purely for audio playback. I have not tired a MAC system myself and cannot verify this, so don't just take my word for it, but if you would like to explore this it might be a good idea to also join the above forum, which is a great resource in this area?
If you are committed to Sonos I would explore a DAC first as there is nothing wrong with your Mira, but remember that DAC's can be extremely subjective when it comes to SQ, depending on how you like your music presented, as they do sound very different.
If it were me, I would ditch Sonos, buy a good DAC and look to build or utilise a small cheap low power computer to play FLAC with JRiver and use JRemote to control it all with your iPad and iPhone. There is however another question here, what format are your music files?
Finally and despite what anyone here says, my final bit of advice is if you really want to get what suits you best regarding a DAC, you are going to have to do some work by listening to different ones in your set-up and preferably at home, as we all have different ears and different likes. This can in the first instance be achieved by going round dealers with parts of your system and maybe a pair of good headphones, to trial different DAC's. You can get a good idea of how a DAC performs by doing this and get a short list for home trial. I drove quite a few miles listening to gear on many weekends before drawing up a shortlist to trial.
Funny thing though, after all this effort I did eventually settle for what a lot here prefer and recommended, but I had to check for myself as that's just me. I'm now very happy with what I have and have no plans to change anything, other than upgrading my music server and improving the power delivery - my loudspeakers are a final destination purchase ;)
My money would be spent changing the speakers. I owned a pair of 603s a few years ago and I didn't keep them for long - one day in fact :( To me the drivers just weren't acting in harmony as the sound was slow and ponderous in the bass with the treble doing it's own thing. That was my take on them, but of course you may love them to bits and have no desire to part with them :eyebrows:
The Sonos and Mira are great bits of kit and I don't think you would get a huge improvement in sound quality from changing either or both.
I SOLD the original "clamshell" Mira in quantity and compared it with much of its immediate competition and quite a bit above during its production lifetime, being rather disappointed with the changes made to the Mira 2000 model. It is my opinion that it's MORE than good enough to reproduce changes and improvements to the source feeding it. Just my opinion obviously, so I really would take hifi dave's advice here....
Dacs these days areblessed or limited by their line output stages of varying qualities I think, and the better ones over a couple of hundred quid do seem to have a bit more "substance" to them IMO...
Seeing as you have an iMac then you already have a good start, get a decent media player for it such as Audirvana or Pure Music(I use the latter) and a decent dac with a async usb input and you are away, the Micromega Mydac or Audiolab dac should fit the bill.
This combo should easily outperform the Sono/touch then have a look at better speakers, but if your speakers are as bad as Frank suggests then you might not hear the benefits of the upstream changes.
I agree with frank,change your speakers first.
I know many on here don't agree but getting your speakers right first of all to work well in your room then work backwards.All imo.
I SOLD the original "clamshell" Mira in quantity and compared it with much of its immediate competition and quite a bit above during its production lifetime, being rather disappointed with the changes made to the Mira 2000 model. It is my opinion that it's MORE than good enough to reproduce changes and improvements to the source feeding it. Just my opinion obviously, so I really would take hifi dave's advice here....
Dacs these days areblessed or limited by their line output stages of varying qualities I think, and the better ones over a couple of hundred quid do seem to have a bit more "substance" to them IMO...
Ok that's a couple for keeping the amp. It does seem to have enough power and I don't get to turn it up more than a quarter of the way though was curious over improvements to the brio r.
With regard to the top poster only looking to spend £500 max.
Wasn.t sure with my speakers. I thought B&w stuff was considered ok. But I have to agree they make nice sound in each part of the spectrum but it doesn't seem to come together well at least not at the moment didn't really want to sell the speakers as I don't know what they would sell for and would find it a bigger mind field trying to find something I could replace them with for the money I got back and what I could afford add at the mo? About to be a proud father for the first time in a couple months, so money is a little tighter than usual at the mo and to be fair probably looking at a second hand dac or amp or what ever I choose at around 350 to £500.
My iMac is upstairs so really not practicle to get a feed to the sound system downstairs except via wireless. Did look at Mac mini at one point but then didn't t really want to have to log in etc just to play music and wanted other zones in the house started. Have a play 5 in the bedroom and will get another one day for a stereo effect when funds allow. For the price I thought the sonos offered a reasonable nice sound and love the interface and couldn't see much else that just worked in the same budget and category. I like the convenience of playing straight from my phone or ipad although I know the sound suffers a bit and when I have time use the media player with lossless files you can notice the sound quality difference from that. Using mainly alac files for compatibility with iTunes and my devices. Don't suppose j river will run from wd live media hub?
I live in wareham so not really any shops to close for home trials. Not sure any one does them around here? There is stone audio near, seven oaks in Weymouth if they are still going or richer sounds in boscombe. All a bit of a trek. Richer sounds also charge you 10 percent on any items you open a box on even though half the stuff they give you has already been home tested and has an open box when they give it you. Annoying!
Was hoping that being the amp is rega the rega dac should just magically transform it? Ha.
Thanks so much for your advice so far.
Hi Stu,
I don't think changing your digital player is going to change the tonal balance of your system. I have a W8 PC/JRiver, an Apple TV and a Sonos and the tonal difference between them when outputting into a decent DAC is negligible.
Changing your speakers, amp or dac will alter the tonal balance though.
Just a quick google search on your speakers showed that most people reckoned that a decent warm sounding amp with good current delivery like NAD, arcam etc. would suit them best. Maybe a good place to start? Unless you decide to keep the amp and change the speakers. Not easy.
I'd buy a power amp and use the Mira as a pre-amp. Those B&W need power to do their best and the Mira is pretty ordinary in that regard.
Seeing as you have an iMac then you already have a good start, get a decent media player for it such as Audirvana or Pure Music(I use the latter) and a decent dac with a async usb input and you are away, the Micromega Mydac or Audiolab dac should fit the bill.
This combo should easily outperform the Sono/touch then have a look at better speakers, but if your speakers are as bad as Frank suggests then you might not hear the benefits of the upstream changes.
Bearing in mind i can only practically use the wifi signal from the iMac, what benefits would I get from one of those media devices over the wd player I already have? I can already play music files from the wd.
I don't have a dedicated sound system for cinema just the stereo at the mo. part of the attraction of the sonos was the coming playbar and sub which I will be looking at adding once the misses is back working properly after the baby.
I like the sound from my speakers using them for av. They seem better at that at the mo. but would prefer a centre channel and again the sonos seems the cheapest way to do it without the need for massive av amps in the mix.. Space is limited to devices I can have.
I'd buy a power amp and use the Mira as a pre-amp. Those B&W need power to do their best and the Mira is pretty ordinary in that regard.
At what price point and recommendations to look at?
At what price point and recommendations to look at?
This thread has some good suggestions
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22797
johnwhit
02-02-2013, 17:46
From experience the B&W 600 series aren't the easiest speakers to drive, with the 603 S3's the drivers don't seem to integrate very well at lower volumes but come into their own when driven harder.
As others have said they do need a decently meaty amp to work at their best, I'm currently driving a pair of 601 S3's with a Rotel RA-971 MkII integrated, rated very conservatively at 60W. A good integrated amp or power amp from Rotel, NAD or HK should do just fine, I'm using a Yamaha DSP-E800 surround processor with the main speakers driven by the Rotel and the Yamaha driving the centre and surrounds, 601 S3, LCR60 and 600 S3 at the rear, works a treat with no need for a sub:eyebrows:
ATB,
John
I wouldn't recommend a Rotel as the majority of their amps don't like low loads - I used the original mk1 601 for several years and they are pretty easy to drive compared to the bigger models in the range
johnwhit
02-02-2013, 18:19
The 601 S3 is a different animal IMHO, delves much deeper in the bass dept.
I'm not sure about the current Rotel amps but the old RA-970 and RA-971's would drive just about anything as confirmed by HFC:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ncxogr8qcozhqa/HFC_RA-971MkII.pdf
ATB,
John
From experience the B&W 600 series aren't the easiest speakers to drive, with the 603 S3's the drivers don't seem to integrate very well at lower volumes but come into their own when driven harder.
As others have said they do need a decently meaty amp to work at their best, I'm currently driving a pair of 601 S3's with a Rotel RA-971 MkII integrated, rated very conservatively at 60W. A good integrated amp or power amp from Rotel, NAD or HK should do just fine, I'm using a Yamaha DSP-E800 surround processor with the main speakers driven by the Rotel and the Yamaha driving the centre and surrounds, 601 S3, LCR60 and 600 S3 at the rear, works a treat with no need for a sub:eyebrows:
ATB,
John
Yeah they do seem to get better when you crank them up but that's a problem due to living in a semi detached house. My neighbours don't like their house shaking for some reason?
I want to get good sound at low volume settings. I am sure these speakers can achieve it with the right set up.
I have read a few threads about Pre amps as didn't really understand that part.
If I were to add a power amp and use the mira as Pre would it be better to use it as Pre only or bi wire the speakers using mira for high and mids and Pre to amp to power lower subs. Will the dynamics or soundstage or what ever mix ok with the right gear? Any experience of this with the mira as a combo?
I know many on here don't agree but getting your speakers right first of all to work well in your room then work backwards.
I have always been a believer of this rule Stu from when it was first mooted in the early 70's and when I got it wrong recently, it was confirmed that I should have stuck to this original idea. I also feel that when sorting out your budget at least 65-70% (possibly more) should go on the loudspeakers. I wasted a huge amount of time tying to adjust my last system around the speakers, before finally realising it was them I didn't like the sound of :doh:
:eek:
I have always been a believer of this rule Stu from when it was first mooted in the early 70's and when I got it wrong recently, it was confirmed that I should have stuck to this original idea. I also feel that when sorting out your budget at least 65-70% (possibly more) should go on the loudspeakers. I wasted a huge amount of time tying to adjust my last system around the speakers, before finally realising it was them I didn't like the sound of :doh:
Yeah from the feed back so far and for what I want to achieve that the speakers may be the weak link in what I have and the cheapest thing to improve upon without having extra boxes and cables everywhere. The would have been easy as its small and tidy and offers more inputs etc which Is why I originally was looking at amp or dac fro greatest improvement.
My lounge is rectangular with speakers either side of one of the longest walls
Have added a link to a photo. Excuse the mess on the table misses and step daughter just come home!
<a href="http://s1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa381/stuwilson101/?action=view¤t=890A3566-9BC1-48BA-916C-5A79D3A3B1A8-472-0000002F499E27E5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa381/stuwilson101/890A3566-9BC1-48BA-916C-5A79D3A3B1A8-472-0000002F499E27E5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>
The left speaker has to be very close to the corner wall the right I can move out a little but again has to be very close.
Can anyone recommend some speakers that may be sonically better at around the £600 mark that, that would run well off the sonos/mira and that like to be close to walls form great sound?
Not sure that link works.
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa381/stuwilson101/890A3566-9BC1-48BA-916C-5A79D3A3B1A8-472-0000002F499E27E5.jpg
Just read up on jriver. It works with the wd live so that's something else to play with. :-)
johnwhit
02-02-2013, 19:28
Yeah they do seem to get better when you crank them up but that's a problem due to living in a semi detached house. My neighbours don't like their house shaking for some reason?
I want to get good sound at low volume settings. I am sure these speakers can achieve it with the right set up.
I have read a few threads about Pre amps as didn't really understand that part.
If I were to add a power amp and use the mira as Pre would it be better to use it as Pre only or bi wire the speakers using mira for high and mids and Pre to amp to power lower subs. Will the dynamics or soundstage or what ever mix ok with the right gear? Any experience of this with the mira as a combo?
I'm fortunate in having an understanding neighbour, he's retired and travels quite a bit, he also has his B'day the day before me, although I'm not sure how relevant that is:scratch: I'd be pushing my luck with a sub next to the adjoining wall though, about the only place I could accomodate it.
If the neighbour's in I use the Dynamic range on the Yamaha to reduce the bass output through the 601's which handle the bass in place of a sub, when he's away dynamic range is set to MAX when listening to DD/DTS:mental:
I couldn't really comment on the pre/power combo as I'm not familiar with the Mira unfortunately, but I'm sure others will be able to offer some advice.
ATB,
John
Well it's not to bad our lounge is on the outer wall at the opposite side the their wall. However I do work with my neighbour so have to be a little careful.
THE best speakers in that price bracket are the Dali Suite 2.8s. They have a sublime sound even at low levels, don't break up at high volumes either and are a doddle to drive with 4 0hms nominal impedance. They are very happy with all genres of music too. They are front ported and not fussy at all about placement so they work fine against walls. I needed a box of Kleenex when I sold mine when I moved to a smaller house :violin:
A pair on ebay now I see http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/dali-2-8-suite-floorstanding-speakers-/140910602141?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item20ceed279d
They are taller and slimmer than the 603s and wives like the look of them as well :)
Don't argue, buy them :eyebrows:
Should get at least £250-£300 for your B&W's - + your £500 = enough to spend on a pair of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spender-A6-Speakers-/321062613563?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item4ac0d2b23b&_uhb=1. Well, that's what I'd do. :)
The dali's look good especially at that price point but not in that colour. Need to be walnut or black to match.
Those others are expensive. Will dual cone be better than the three in the b and w?
StanleyB
02-02-2013, 20:24
There is also a pair of Thiel CS 2.2 (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/492thiel/) I am considering parting with if the price is right.
The dali's look good especially at that price point but not in that colour. Need to be walnut or black to match.
If they were purple with pink stripes they would still be a must have inexpensive speaker. They were only ever made in cherry or silver finish.
There is also a pair of Thiel CS 2.2 (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/492thiel/) I am considering parting with if the price is right.
Hi Stan. If Stu is not interested I might be.
StanleyB
02-02-2013, 22:17
We'll keep in touch :).
Pm sent re those speakers.
Read a few reviews on the dali's last night.
At there price I would of bought them to try and re sold if wasn't happy had they have been being sold nearer but they are miles away.
Looking at lots of speakers now in price range. Are front ported speakers generally better if they are to be mounted close to walls?
johnwhit
03-02-2013, 17:52
Looking at lots of speakers now in price range. Are front ported speakers generally better if they are to be mounted close to walls?
Oh yes, at least in the majority of cases, I have the same problem.
John
What speakers do you have John?
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