Advanced mods - worth doing?

[mido]

Ok, so I have finally got my techie working nicely. So far the alterations from stock are Isonoe feet, cork mat, Jelco SA-250 tonearm. Sometimes it sounds really good, there appears to be more detail in the higher frequencies than I had with my Lenco and this can bring certain poorer recordings, that maybe sounded a little dull on the Lenco, to life.

However, when I play a record that I am very familiar with and is a particularly good recording/production, I can’t help feeling that it is not as good and that something is missing. I can’t be absolutely sure and I am not in a position to do any A/B testing because I have only the one tonearm, but I think it is a matter of slight congestion and muddling and less bass extension/depth to the music and, most importantly, a lack of rhythmic drive.

So, prior to all this I had hoped to go pretty far with the techie experiment, my engineering friend has studied the deck and read all the info that I gave him. Plans were to externalise the power supply and do a few other mods to the circuit. However, I am starting to wonder if it is worth the bother. Will these mods improve on those elements that I feel are somewhat lacking? Are these things just a part of the intrinsic nature of the technics and not likely to change? Should I pursue a different path in my search for analogue nirvana?

I feel like I now have two turntables both of which are lacking with certain recordings, the techie makes poor recordings sound better to me, but when it comes to very good recordings, the techie whilst sounding pretty good, just doesn’t do it as well as the Lenco. Strange, huh!?

Any and all advice welcome.

Thank you,

Frank

[Marco]

Hi Frank,

Don't worry, what you're largely hearing is the sonic effect of having the PSU underneath the platter. Once you externalise it, or better, fit a superior one, such as those from Paul Hynes, Origin Live, etc, you'll hear a massive improvement! :exactly:

Also which cartridge are you using?

One other thing I'd say is that, in my experience, cork mats aren't that great on the Techy, as being a poor mechanical interface with vinyl, they tend to rob music of 'life'. You'd be far better ditching the cork mat for a 5mm Achromat (the one specifically designed for the SL-1200/1210).

The combination of doing that and sorting out the PSU, should get you back on track! :)

Marco.

[mido]

Hi Frank,

Don't worry, what you're largely hearing is the sonic effect of having the PSU underneath the platter. Once you externalise it, or better, fit a superior one, such as those from Paul Hynes, Origin Live, etc, you'll hear a massive improvement! :exactly:

Also which cartridge are you using?

One other thing I'd say is that, in my experience, cork mats aren't that great on the Techy, as being a poor mechanical interface with vinyl, they tend to rob music of 'life'. You'd be far better ditching the cork mat for a 5mm Achromat (the one specifically designed for the SL-1200/1210).

The combination of doing that and sorting out the PSU, should get you back on track! :)

Marco.

Hi Marco,

ok I will push on with the removal of the PSU and other internal mods, after all my mate will not be charging me. :)

I might just hold off on the mat for the moment. I was hoping to go as far as I could without forking out too much money, to be as sure as possible that the Techie is the TT for me and the upgrades would be something that I want to pursue. Also, and I realise that it may not be the same on the Technics, but when I tried an acrylic mat on the Lenco it seemed to make the sound too hard and bright for my ears. I have a couple of other mats lying around here, felt, rubber etc, I will experiment with them for now.

And, I am using a Mayware MC-7V cartridge.

[chris@panteg]

Marco , Chris (Strat) seems to be very happy with a cork mat on his 1210 , his recent rips sounded sounded fine to me .

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

I've no doubt they did. It's a synergy thing, and so much depends on the context in which cork, or any other mats, are used. However, I've used cork mats on a number of T/Ts, and whilst ok, I've never really liked the rather 'dark' and heavy sound that they tend to produce, in comparison with the likes of an Achromat.

Technically, the ideal mat is that which acts as the closest mechanical impedance to a vinyl record, which is why in the right set-up, the Achromat works so well.

The problem is there are so many factors that can influence the results heard, that what I've described above is not universally experienced with all turntables and in all systems. Ultimately, therefore, it's a matter of tuning the sound until one obtains the right balance, which in some circumstances may mean the use of a technically 'inferior' mat, if the sound produced is better to your own ears.

Incidentally, that principle also applies with support feet and many other things, too! :)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Yeah , it's a bit of a grey area for me ? I like the achromat but with the copper bonded VA platter , any mat I try just muddies up the sound ?

[Marco]

Hi Frank,


ok I will push on with the removal of the PSU and other internal mods, after all my mate will not be charging me.


Seems like a no-brainer, then! Removing the PSU from underneath the platter should cure what you describe, but of course there's still no guarantee that it'll result in the Techy being your ideal turntable.

I will say, however, that once you've externalised the PSU, fitted a better tonearm, mat and feet to the Techy, and if it's still not quite for you, then at that stage I'd get off the bus and catch another one, as by then, the intrinsic sound of the T/T should be revealed, and from there any further (more expensive) mods are only liable to highlight that character more.


I might just hold off on the mat for the moment. I was hoping to go as far as I could without forking out too much money, to be as sure as possible that the Techie is the TT for me and the upgrades would be something that I want to pursue. Also, and I realise that it may not be the same on the Technics, but when I tried an acrylic mat on the Lenco it seemed to make the sound too hard and bright for my ears. I have a couple of other mats lying around here, felt, rubber etc, I will experiment with them for now.


By all means experiment, as that's the name of the game, but I can tell you that the mat/platter/PSU/tonearm/cartridge interface, and getting it RIGHT, in terms of synergy, is fundamentally important in allowing you to decide if what you're hearing is what you're looking for from your SL-1210.

Therefore, what I'm getting at with the mat, is that I'd be loathe for you to give up on what could become your ideal T/T, simply through not having heard it with the right mat! ;)

If the synergy of the overall T/T is right, acrylic mats should not sound hard or bright. Mine certainly doesn't.... What they do, however, is tend to highlight what's wrong (if there is a tonal imbalance elsewhere), simply by being more neutral sounding.

If I were you, after you've experimented with other mats, I'd bite the bullet and try an Achromat. If it's not suitable, and you keep it mint and retain all the original packaging, you should be able to sell it on for not much less than you paid for it. I would strongly urge you to try this before giving up on the Techy :)


And, I am using a Mayware MC-7V cartridge.

Gosh yes, of course it is. Sorry, I'd forgotten about that. Too many things to remember with all the people I chat to on here!

Marco.

[Marco]

Yeah , it's a bit of a grey area for me ? I like the achromat but with the copper bonded VA platter , any mat I try just muddies up the sound ?

If Richard has voiced the effect of his platter, with the other items of his you're using, then you shouldn't need another mat, as the copper bonded platter, in your set up, should be the right solution :)

I think the area where you have some work to do is on your arm/cartridge and phono stage.

Marco.

[mido]

Well, this afternoon I changed the cork mat for a mat that I always found very transparent on the Lenco, if a little lightweight, it's a no-name anti-stat mat that I have had for years that has a plastic underside.

I cannot believe the difference it has made, it was instantly audible. The congestion has cleared a lot, the sound has tightened up and everything just seems to sound more focussed and right. Cannot believe such a dramatic alteration can be had simply from changing the mat :).

Hmm, maybe I really should try an Achromat. Am I alone in thinking 75 quid is a lot of money for a turntable mat though !? Or am I just a tight arse !? :lol:

[chris@panteg]

£75 ? I think you can get it for 66 on Amazon .

Stick with what you have for now , sounds like it's sorted !

[mido]

Thanks Chris,

I have to say it is sounding really good at the moment. Got some Stills and Young Band playing and it sounds pretty amazing. Am still a little blown away at the difference a mat can seemingly make.

[Tarzan]

Yeah , it's a bit of a grey area for me ? I like the achromat but with the copper bonded VA platter , any mat I try just muddies up the sound ?

Chris if you are feeling flush, try the Oyaide mat:);)

[Stratmangler]

Marco , Chris (Strat) seems to be very happy with a cork mat on his 1210 , his recent rips sounded sounded fine to me .

The cork mat hasn't been used since I got an Achromat, which was on the deck when I did my most recent needledrops.
I do use the deck with a Michell clamp too :)

[Marco]

Well, this afternoon I changed the cork mat for a mat that I always found very transparent on the Lenco, if a little lightweight, it's a no-name anti-stat mat that I have had for years that has a plastic underside.

I cannot believe the difference it has made, it was instantly audible. The congestion has cleared a lot, the sound has tightened up and everything just seems to sound more focussed and right. Cannot believe such a dramatic alteration can be had simply from changing the mat :).


Nice one, Frank. I won't say that I told you so! The Marco-boy does know a thing or two about these things, you know.... ;)

Pleased that you've achieved a nice free upgrade :)

Marco.

[Marco]

The cork mat hasn't been used since I got an Achromat, which was on the deck when I did my most recent needledrops.


Hehehe, now there's a coincidence....! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[worrasf]

Yeah , it's a bit of a grey area for me ? I like the achromat but with the copper bonded VA platter , any mat I try just muddies up the sound ?

:exactly:
Steve

[chris@panteg]

The cork mat hasn't been used since I got an Achromat, which was on the deck when I did my most recent needledrops.
I do use the deck with a Michell clamp too :)

Kept that quiet Chris , thoughts ?

[chris@panteg]

Chris if you are feeling flush, try the Oyaide mat:);)

Andy , I have the VA bonded platter , Oyaide not required .

[Stratmangler]

Kept that quiet Chris , thoughts ?

I posted up about the mat for certain.
I'm pretty sure that I did with the clamp too.

I found that the noise floor dropped with the Achromat, and the lowered noise floor meant that fine detailing became more apparent.
Using the clamp brought more of the same :)

[chris@panteg]

I posted up about the mat for certain.
I'm pretty sure that I did with the clamp too.

I found that the noise floor dropped with the Achromat, and the lowered noise floor meant that fine detailing became more apparent.
Using the clamp brought more of the same :)

Oh , ok good , what's next Mike New bearing maybe ?

[Stratmangler]

Oh , ok good , what's next Mike New bearing maybe ?

Dunno about that - the admission cost for that club is a bit steep :eyebrows:
Maybe Richard will resurface ...

[chris@panteg]

Dunno about that - the admission cost for that club is a bit steep :eyebrows:
Maybe Richard will resurface ...

Well times are hard Chris , I do hope Richard returns to the fold ? Just don't know :scratch:

[Mike_New]

Hi Stephen,
To my knowledge you are the only person who will very shortly have both my Bearing and a "modified one" It will be interesting to hear what your opinions are.
I just wish I could produce them for much less but the absolute quality would have to suffer unless I could produce them in batches of 100 or more.

[Marco]

Hi Mike,

That's a shame. Have costs gone up considerably then since you first started producing the bearings? Out of interest, what percentage of the work is done by you, and how much is out-sourced?

I guess that there's always going to be a finite amount of people who will buy such a bespoke product, so I can't see it being practical for you to hold a stock of 100 of them, as they could take years to sell!

However, it might be worth reducing the overall quality slightly (perhaps you could outline exactly how that would be done), which will likely still result in your bearings being better than others out there. At least then people will still have access to a high quality product.

We have to keep the modded Techy going as a viable high-end T/T, and your bearings allow that notion to become a reality! :)

Marco.

[worrasf]

Hi Stephen,
To my knowledge you are the only person who will very shortly have both my Bearing and a "modified one" It will be interesting to hear what your opinions are.
I just wish I could produce them for much less but the absolute quality would have to suffer unless I could produce them in batches of 100 or more.

Hello Mike,
Yes I think you are correct - Clearly I'm not going to be able to do A/B comparisons or bearing "hot swaps" but I reckon I know how the TT sounds now to be able to do a comparison. Looking forward to my parcel from Oz arriving.

Steve

[mido]

Nice one, Frank. I won't say that I told you so! The Marco-boy does know a thing or two about these things, you know.... ;)

Pleased that you've achieved a nice free upgrade :)

Marco.

Yes, thank you Marco. Changing the mat has made all the difference.

I am still struggling to believe the enormity of the transformation.

:)

[Mike_New]

Hi Mike,

That's a shame. Have costs gone up considerably then since you first started producing the bearings? Out of interest, what percentage of the work is done by you, and how much is out-sourced?

I guess that there's always going to be a finite amount of people who will buy such a bespoke product, so I can't see it being practical for you to hold a stock of 100 of them, as they could take years to sell!

However, it might be worth reducing the overall quality slightly (perhaps you could outline exactly how that would be done), which will likely still result in your bearings being better than others out there. At least then people will still have access to a high quality product.

We have to keep the modded Techy going as a viable high-end T/T, and your bearings allow that notion to become a reality! :)

Marco.

Hi Marco
Basically the problem is that I am not getting sufficient orders now on a regular basis to justify the money that has to be tied up for many months. For instance it is now over six months since I last made a batch of 25 and I still have 5 available.

I could reduce the specs on the precision I require, but we would then only be back to what exists already!
When I offered a very generous discount on the last batch it took many months to pull in enough takers.

The problem essentially is the old commercial/engineering equation of production quantity versus cost/price/quality.
I believe that a large number of those who are devotees of the LS1200 and who want a bearing, now have one. The remainder will no doubt decide over the many months ahead.
If I reduced the quality/specification of the bearing then it would be no better than those modified types already available at a lower price. So no-one would gain, who wanted a much superior bearing.

[Canetoad]

That's a shame Mike. I'd like to say that I'm glad I made the investment in mine. I'll never have to replace it! :eyebrows:

Have you thought about the possibility of making them for other turntables, such as thorens, Garrard, Lenco etc. Surely the engineering used in your bearing could be applied equally as well to other desirable turntables? :scratch:

[Mike_New]

Hi Bernie,
I have considered making bearings for other brands, but I believe that there are alternatives available. I took on the most difficult challenge of making one for the SL1200. In fact I have looked at the various Chinese copies of the SL which could potentially take the place of the SL in the future since it is currently in production and does have some merits.

However the motor bearing/arrangement does not seem to be possible to modify with any ease by the average DIY, and the company will not provide any details or circuits as far as I have been informed.

[worrasf]

My new Mike New bearing arrived today :mex:

Phenomenal service from Mike as only posted from Oz 3 days ago. Thanks Mike.

I am really looking forward to spending a little time tomorrow installing it. I know Mike also sells a "bearing support kit" to give ultimate rigidity but being a cheap skate ****ard I reckon I can "duplicate" one from spare items/bolts I have here - I'l see when all is in bits tomorrow. It certainly looks a fine piece of engineering.

Steve

[Mike_New]

Hi Stephen,
I honestly cannot believe the delivery time!!!! some folks have had to wait up to 2 or more weeks. Customs maybe saw the address and thought that it maybe a heart transplant.

[synsei]

Mike, I wonder whether costs might be shaved a little and quality maintained by using billet aluminium rather than brass for the bearing housing?

[Mike_New]

Hi Dave,
Alluminium bar is less expensive than brass but it would not contribute greatly to the sort of cost reduction that people considering a quality bearing would seem to require. Manufacture of the bearing is essentially a labour intensive one in the very small batches that this market justifies.

Considering its very high precision of manufacture, the humble Hard Disk Drive HDD would cost many hundreds or thousands of dollars (and indeed did). in small quntities. Now they are produced in millions and cost peanuts because of intensely dedicated production lines producing thousands per day.

I guess I should ask the question; if I were able to offer the exisiting Bearing for A$475.00 how many would take up the offer now within the next few weeks?? I doubt if I would get sufficient offers to justify a batch run of say 75 which might allow this sort of price. So the conundrum is this, how much is acceptable and how many would take it up??

[synsei]

Hi Dave,
Alluminium bar is less expensive than brass but it would not contribute greatly to the sort of cost reduction that people considering a quality bearing would seem to require. Manufacture of the bearing is essentially a labour intensive one in the very small batches that this market justifies.

Considering its very high precision of manufacture, the humble Hard Disk Drive HDD would cost many hundreds or thousands of dollars (and indeed did). in small quntities. Now they are produced in millions and cost peanuts because of intensely dedicated production lines producing thousands per day.

I guess I should ask the question; if I were able to offer the exisiting Bearing for A$475.00 how many would take up the offer now within the next few weeks?? I doubt if I would get sufficient offers to justify a batch run of say 75 which might allow this sort of price. So the conundrum is this, how much is acceptable and how many would take it up??

Yup, I get that completely Mike. Take my circumstances for example, I would dearly like to fit one of your bearings into my SL1210 but times are tough, money is tight and there are many other things which take priority, not least of which is keeping a roof over mine and my families heads. Should I win the Lottery of course my order will be placed quicker than a quick thing... ;)

[worrasf]

Customs maybe saw the address and thought that it maybe a heart transplant.

:rfl: