View Full Version : Can interconnects go bad over time???
I've got a couple of sets of VDH D102 MKIII hybrid interconnects which I've owned and used for over 10 years.
Recently, both have started to become noisy. I'm getting a high freq noise when using them with various sources. I'm not exactly sure when it started but I was just wondering, although these cables read find on a meter, this simple continuity test does not tell me anything about the effectiveness of any shielding or even if they are acting as an aerial and picking up interference from a something near by. Could it even be a combination of some input stage characteristics of my amp with these specific cables???
I don't get the issue with any of my other interconnects.
Just wondering if anyone else has ever experienced similar issues?
WOStantonCS100
29-01-2013, 22:14
The simple answer is yes. They can fail in a number of ways, poor soldering being one; but, can't say for sure if that's your issue. It sounds like there may be something else a foot.
Nevertheless, foil shielded cables have 100% coverage; but, foil shielding is not as tough as braided shielding and will give out (tear) easier under the same flexing conditions. The claws, jaws, teeth or whatever they're called of the connector can also loosen with age and strain (negative connection) and I've experienced split shaft pins (positive connection) that become compressed. In both cases, less than reliable contact with the jack was the result causing an intermittent connection. I have not experienced increased EMI/RFI unless an EMI/RFI source was somehow added to the environment. Then again, if the shield is significantly compromised, but not broken/severed, I guess this could be possible.
Have you checked for cross continuity? From positive to negative? If you get continuity that way, I would immediately stop using the cable in question.
Static electricity in the dry winter months is the bugger for me.
Biff has already mentioned the several ways by which interconnects can fail/degrade with time.
To be able to help you further, we would need to know the exact construction of the VdH 102 cables. Are they semi-balanced? That is, use a twisted pair with an overall shield connected at one end only.
As a first step I would unscrew the connector cover (if you can) and check the integrity of the soldered connections. Next, make sure the connectors themselves are making good connection when mated with the sockets (especially the outer connection of the phonos).
Yup, Bazza (and Biff) - good advice, as usual.
The other thing to consider is not a change in the cables themselves, but the environment in which they are being used in - or perhaps a combination of both. Have you rearranged your equipment recently, Ian, causing said cable to be placed nearer a source of noise?
Or perhaps a new source of outside interference has come into the equation, such as a recently installed mobile phone mast in your area, causing your cables to pick up some RFI...? Have you tried fixing some ferrite clamps to your interconnects? If what I've mentioned is happening, then that may solve your problem :)
Marco.
They are indeed semi balance as shown here
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/1dd44bc47764e0383114bf2f4075c623.jpg
I have 2 sets of these cables and both are now giving issues. They read fine on a meter and the condition of the soldered connections appear fine. They are well used and are not my main cables, but they are used a lot in equipment swaps for testing in the main system. It also doesn't seem to matter which way round I use them I.e. braid grounded at source or destination. The freq is high and does not vary.
I'm using some belkn pure AV that I made up from the cheap 12ft digital interconnects that came up on Amazon the year before last at the moment and these do not have the same HF interference.
I'll try switching off all the other mains sockets today in case there is an SMPS doing horrid things nearby and I could re terminate the cables a bit shorter if anyone thinks that might help?
Cheers
No thoughts, Ian, on what I suggested?
Marco.
Sorry Marco.....my bad!
The equipment has gone onto a new rack in the same physical space. I've ordered some ferrite clamps to try too.
My problem is that there is always something going on in my system, different CDP, different mods etc. what is puzzling me now , is the fact that the problem only seems to be with these leads and this amp! Very strange! Have you ever had a particular type of lead that just didn't play nice with a particular amp?
Many times, mate. It's not unusual, especially in a system that's in a constant state of flux. Your problem could be caused by many things, but it's most likely an electrical imbalance between that specific amp and the VDH cables. Defo give the ferrites a go, though!
Marco.
Richard Kimber
30-01-2013, 11:41
I've never used ferrite cores. Given that they're not expensive, is there a reason why they're not fitted more routinely? Or is this another of those areas where 50% regard them as snake oil and the rest are believers?
- Richard
johnwhit
30-01-2013, 11:54
They are indeed semi balance as shown here
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/1dd44bc47764e0383114bf2f4075c623.jpg
I have 2 sets of these cables and both are now giving issues. They read fine on a meter and the condition of the soldered connections appear fine. They are well used and are not my main cables, but they are used a lot in equipment swaps for testing in the main system. It also doesn't seem to matter which way round I use them I.e. braid grounded at source or destination. The freq is high and does not vary.
Cheers
VDH recommend grounding at the source end which doesn't seem logical to me as everything else would generally be grounded at the amp IMHO which is the case in my system. I have a ground wire running to an earth terminal in my power distribution block from the amp chassis.
John
I've never used ferrite cores. Given that they're not expensive, is there a reason why they're not fitted more routinely? Or is this another of those areas where 50% regard them as snake oil and the rest are believers?
- Richard
I think the use of a ferrite core can be scientifically proven to have an effect on signal and if tuned correctly it can suppress a given freq. In practice for audio, its probably one of those things that you either believe or don't, mainly because I suspect the freq you are likely to be effecting is outside of the audio band. Same reason there is debate of other EMI/RFI suppression techniques like litz braid for example.
On the original problem, The VDH's appear not to like my Jungson amp but seem fine with the Restek. I wonder if the cables end up acting like an aerial? maybe there is something strange about the preamp gain/input stage?
prestonchipfryer
30-01-2013, 20:17
I've never used ferrite cores. Given that they're not expensive, is there a reason why they're not fitted more routinely? Or is this another of those areas where 50% regard them as snake oil and the rest are believers?
- Richard
Defo worth a punt, as not expensive. Work well with unshielded cables - I.e.: Kimber cable from RA.
There was a time when there was interference from taxis on my system. So I fitted some ferrite cores on my interconnects and the interference stopped. Took them off and the interference returned so put them back on.
So in my experience ferrite works.
Definitely not snake oil.
:D
WOStantonCS100
30-01-2013, 22:04
The type and construction of shielding will have a direct impact on which frequencies will be / can be filtered out. That's why it's not necessarily a good idea to swap 75 ohm coax and audio cables without knowing what the shielding is designed to keep out. The sustained frequency you hear most likely also incorporates other frequencies you can't hear, still affecting the signal. Perhaps the particular composition/construction of the VDH cable's shielding is, as you say, picking up something in the amp that's emitting RFI. If that's the case, it's probably easiest to just accept the lack of synergy and use the cable that rejects the noise. Shame; but, it's probably cheaper/easier than sussing out a problem with the amp, if it's that. You know... ...until all the caps in the amp start singing and the whole thing goes up in smoke. :lol: Sorry, that's not really funny.
Ferrite rings. Yup. Good idea. There's a reason you see it used regularly on computer interconnects even inside the PSU's themselves. I've sourced several of those little buggers from dead PC PSU's. Reduce. Reuse. Recycle. ;)
If you suspect it's "air born interference" and you want to get silly.... you can find some copper foil and temporarily wrap it around the singing cable, ground it and see if the noise is attenuated (like an extra layer of shielding). To some degree (keeping safe heat dissipation in mind), you can do that with a suspect piece of gear; but, be warned... ...your wife will think you've gone mad. :mental:
I too bought a couple of pairs of these cables quite a few years ago, both pairs eventually stopped working, be it intermittent crackles at first. Others I bought at the same times still work fine....
johnwhit
31-01-2013, 10:35
I too bought a couple of pairs of these cables quite a few years ago, both pairs eventually stopped working, be it intermittent crackles at first. Others I bought at the same times still work fine....
Makes you wonder if it's something to do with the carbon breaking down, being as they're hybrid construction. They've had very positive reviews over the years, what always put me off was the source grounding and the fact there seem to be a few counterfeit ones doing the rounds.
John
hifi_dave
31-01-2013, 10:47
When they first came out there were rumours of poor conductivity, dry joints and noises caused by the 'hybrid' construction.
Both cables have been re-soldered over time for that very reason (intermittent connection). Its only the pin that has a soldered joint on the older VDH plugs. The earth is clamped along with the shield at one end.
These are definitely original as they were retail purchased.
Makes you wonder if it's something to do with the carbon breaking down, being as they're hybrid construction. They've had very positive reviews over the years, what always put me off was the source grounding and the fact there seem to be a few counterfeit ones doing the rounds.
John
What carbon is this? Where is it? Is it the shield?
Conductor Material: HYBRID: High purity dense Silver coated high purity Matched Crystal OFC + Linear Structured Carbon ® saturated layer(s)
http://www.vandenhul.com/UserFiles/Image/d-102-3hS.jpg
http://www.vandenhul.com/p_B09.aspx
They are well used and are not my main cables, but they are used a lot in equipment swaps for testing in the main system.
Cheers
Most wire will deteriorate if it is bent. Imagine this: you bend a paperclip backwards and forwards - it will break. Both Nordost and Slinkylinks advise against moving your wire, just let it be so that the small but cumulative stresses do not add up. On the other hand good interconnect wire should be annealed (tempered, softened) so that this is minimized. Still it is a possibility.
Conductor Material: HYBRID: High purity dense Silver coated high purity Matched Crystal OFC + Linear Structured Carbon ® saturated layer(s)
http://www.vandenhul.com/UserFiles/Image/d-102-3hS.jpg
http://www.vandenhul.com/p_B09.aspx
Looking at the above links it is clear that VdH has used the carbon layers to discharge any static charge build up on the dielectric. This is a common technique used on cables that are subject to frequent flexing, such as microphone cables; though in these a single layer only is used directly underneath the outer shielding.
I don't understand what VdH is talking about the "conversion of magnetic fields into electric fields". All adding a layer of a mediocre conductor, such as carbon, will do is to increase the skin-depth slightly.
I have assembled cables using this low-noise construction, and used them without any problem for the last thirty years.
Can you say in what way the cables are noisy? Is it a white-noise 'hiss', or is it intermittent 'crackling'?
Hi Barry, the noise is like a constant high freq interference. definitely not a white noise hiss or intermittent crackling type noise.
I'm going to work through removing the power from various bits of kit to see if I can isolate the source. I'm still not convinced its not just the combination of the cable and the amp as I tested both cables with another set up in the same room last night without issue.
Canetoad
31-01-2013, 12:48
Makes you wonder if it's something to do with the carbon breaking down, being as they're hybrid construction. They've had very positive reviews over the years, what always put me off was the source grounding and the fact there seem to be a few counterfeit ones doing the rounds.
John
... and the fact they stop working after 10 years! :lol:
johnwhit
31-01-2013, 13:00
... and the fact they stop working after 10 years! :lol:
Yup, that too:hmm::lol:
Or maybe 12........time flies ;)
Hi Ian,
Ever tried them without the shield being connected to either end? Just wondered if the shield is acting like an aerial at all.
Regards
johnwhit
31-01-2013, 14:14
Hi Ian,
Ever tried them without the shield being connected to either end? Just wondered if the shield is acting like an aerial at all.
Regards
That's a damn good idea;)
John
My logical problem solving part of the brain suggests (IMHO) that it is not the cables at all, but something else that has changed with the refit into the new rack. If you've tried them in another setup and there was no problem then it must point to that? Are you using them on a different input? With just one set and one source, do you still get the problem? And have you tried another i/c in the new setup to see if it is just with these? All "suck eggs" advice, but a bit of methodical testing should isolate the issue I hope.
Stratmangler
31-01-2013, 18:21
If I were a betting man I'd wager that you haven't got an effective earth on the Jungson amp.
johnwhit
31-01-2013, 18:29
If I were a betting man I'd wager that you haven't got an effective earth on the Jungson amp.
Same here, I'd attach a ground cable to the amp chassis, running to an earth point on the distribution block and arrange the VDH with ground at the amp end despite the manufacturers recommendation of source end.
John
Lots of advice there so I've spent a bit of time working through.
1st, I was using the amp without an earth. I made several mains cables up and some were not earthed at the equipment end. The Amp had one. A quick check showed approx 2 ohms between the amp chassis and mains earth. I swapped to a lead with an earth but the problem remained. incidentally, the resistance from chassis to earth remained constant.
As I started to unplug stuff in order to swap cable direction around and try earthing the shield at both ends, the noise stopped. It seem that the source is actually the clock PSU in one of my CDP's. I'd been playing with some wire wound inductors in line with the PSU. just touching them suppresses the noise picked up through the cables. Obviously I need to investigate but clearly something is not optimal in the clock either!!!!!!:stalks::stalks:
interesting that the other interconnects including woven type without any shield dont seem to pick up the interference, its only these VDH!
So, not resolved, but at least I know the source of the interference now. cheers for the help guys :) :cool::cool:
johnwhit
02-02-2013, 18:03
Good to know you're getting somewhere with it, best of luck.
John
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