View Full Version : Mod your Beresford 7520
And the burning question is: Is the upgrade really worth the effort?
I will admit to being a bit sceptical and that the Wolfson DAC sounds "different" but not "better". The temptation IMO is to think the swap "must" be an improvement because it involved a lot of work, and it's not easy to revert back.
The popping is a bit of a worry though...
Ken
See above. If it was a socket job then I'd say it was another "no brainer". I had to give it a go though ;)
See above. If it was a socket job then I'd say it was another "no brainer". I had to give it a go though ;)
If it was socketed, I think we would all have tried it ;)
The way you are describing the sound it seems to me the presentation is quite "forward" - More so than the stock DAC. I'm guessing it may just be a little too up-front for my K701's, and my ears.
However, thanks for having the b...s to try the Wolfson chip, you comments are much appreciated.
Ken
StanleyB
20-05-2009, 16:41
The way you are describing the sound it seems to me the presentation is quite "forward" - More so than the stock DAC. I'm guessing it may just be a little too up-front for my K701's, and my ears.
It sounds nothing like that with my K701's. Time, space and position exhibit a greater amount of clarity and certainty on my setup with the WM8716.
It sounds nothing like that with my K701's. Time, space and position exhibit a greater amount of clarity and certainty on my setup with the WM8716.
Yes, but time, space and position are relative (sorry - I couldn't resist :)).
I don't want the sound to be any "brighter" than it is at the moment though. If it gives better depth, however, then that's fine. This is always going to be a case of "one man's meat is another man's poison".
Perhaps Trailer can expand on the 8716's sound signature...
Ken
Yes, but time, space and position are relative (sorry - I couldn't resist :)).
I don't want the sound to be any "brighter" than it is at the moment though. If it gives better depth, however, then that's fine. This is always going to be a case of "one man's meat is another man's poison".
Perhaps Trailer can expand on the 8716's sound signature...
Ken
I'm going to give it a right good listening to tonight and I'll get back to you tomorrow.
Right as promised some findings:
I thought I'd have a listen to the 7520 with the 4032's as that is what was in it pre-Wolfson. Initially it is impressive but after a while it got a bit tiresome and not really good for late night listening. I had a thought that maybe I could try the old op-amp rolling trick again.
This morning I decided to give the op-amps ago:
LT1364: Less tiresome as the 4032's but with the same amount of detail.
4562's: Smoother with the same amount of detail and I thought these will do.
However, I still had a couple of 49720's to hand. I popped these in and they were even better. Smooth, detailed and VERY natural sounding. Not digital at all, very analogue.
I've been listening to Ryan Adams 29 CD (an old favourite) this afternoon with the 49720's and it really is a pleasure. I'll let them warm up again for couple of days and hopefully they'll get even better.
I'm guessing that the extra resolution(?) of the Wolfson with the 4032's was just a bit too much out there for long listening periods?
4562's: Smoother with the same amount of detail and I thought these will do.
However, I still had a couple of 49720's to hand. I popped these in and they were even better. Smooth, detailed and VERY natural sounding. Not digital at all, very analogue.
That's very interesting because I thought the 49720 was just a re-numbered 4562 - And is actually the same chip.
Comparing the WM8716 with the PCM1716 now that you are settled on an op-amp - Should I put the order in for a 8716?
Oh, and BTW - has the "popping" on the optical resolved itself - bit of an issue for me this as I use the optical most?
Sorry to go on a bit but as you can appreciate, swapping the DAC is not trivial and I want to be sure it's going to be woth the effort. I know Stan is all for it though, which counts for a lot.
Ken
The 49720s I have are the canned variety.
I haven't tried the optical again, but I'll give it a go later on.
StanleyB
22-05-2009, 08:02
I don't get any popping issues on my TC-7520 with WM8716.
I got a set of the 49720 from Simon (YP53 on ebay), and hope to try them over the weekend. He has bought a TC-7520 for opamp testing, so hopefully we'll get some more useful info from that direction.
Stan
TeTsuo36
22-05-2009, 14:07
Hi,
i ordered my 7520 today, can't wait for it to arrive!
Quick questions if i may?
My DIY Amplifier has no volume control, so i assume i will use the variable output to my amp?
Regarding changing opamps, is it the case that the headphone amp and variable output share the same opamp, so this for me will be one to change?
Finally which opamp is which, when i have the unit open?
Thanks in advance, Mark.
I tried the optical again today. It's still popping but nowhere near as loud as with the 4032.
I'm wondering if it had something to do with the Maplin PSU blow out?
I have a 7510 mod 21 (1 and 2) with the 4032 and a Maplins Linear Bench Supply rated at 13.8v and use a Squeezebox and don't have any popping noises that you have decribed. I use the coaxial input though and have not tried optical.
Regards
Chris
The popping started after either my Maplin PSU blew up or the Wolfson chip was fitted.
The PSU blew up the day I sent the 7520 away for the new chip. After the PSU blew all I did was plug the wall wart PSU in to make sure the 7520 still powered up and didn't give it a listen, so it may well of happened then.
The popping started after either my Maplin PSU blew up or the Wolfson chip was fitted.
The PSU blew up the day I sent the 7520 away for the new chip. After the PSU blew all I did was plug the wall wart PSU in to make sure the 7520 still powered up and didn't give it a listen, so it may well of happened then.
Did the guy who did the Wolfson install not check the 7520 before he did the swap? - Maybe he did but didn't check all the inputs...
That was probably the case. I guess I should have checked it before I sent it too.
By the way, after a couple of days warming up the 49720+Wolfson is sounding bloody marvellous.
By the way, after a couple of days warming up the 49720+Wolfson is sounding bloody marvellous.
That's good to hear - Did you ever try the plastic cased LM4562's? I like them a lot and use them for both Headphone and line-out. Do they still work with the Wolfson DAC?
I think I will order a couple of WM8716's - They are very reasonably priced - And have a good ponder on the updrade. If I decide to go ahead, I may create another thread detailing the work involved in case any members are interested in having a go.
Ken
I think I got mine direct from Wolfson as "samples".
I didn't try the 4562's. At the time that the op-amp rolling recommendations kicked off I think someone, might have been Leo, suggested that the 49720's gave a better performance so I went straight to them.
I would certainly recommend the Wolfson chip. Don't be put off by my popping issues. Stan hasn't got them so I think it's something that's happened uniquely to mine.
Metal can version of both 4562 and 49720 is better than their plastic cased brothers, improved thermal properties etc
Regarding the popping issue, do you hear these noises on the same songs or is it pretty random?
Is it heard with no music playing?
Does the 7520 use series resistors on the op-amps output ?
Regarding the popping issue, do you hear these noises on the same songs or is it pretty random?
Is it heard with no music playing?
Does the 7520 use series resistors on the op-amps output ?
It only happens when there is music playing (randomly) and only on the optical. It doesn't happen on the co-ax. I've tried different sources on the optical and it's the same. Weird or what?
It only happens when there is music playing (randomly) and only on the optical. It doesn't happen on the co-ax. I've tried different sources on the optical and it's the same. Weird or what?
Hmm, thats interesting, well it does narrow things down a little and gives a few options to test and check, I'd start with basics, you may have already mentioned you tried these things but I'm not reading through all the thread:lol:
Anyway
(Removed, already tried it)
Is the optical lead ok, no cracks in the lead or muck etc on the ends
Is the optical socket ok, no fractured or dry joints giving intermittent connections
If the voltage supplying the optical input isn't consistant it could cause problems
Whilst music is playing try gently tapping the dac to see if it increases the popping
Maybe the optical level is slightly too high and causing random clipping
It should be possible to find the problem, it may just require a bit of time
I'll have a check of those and let you know.
Thanks again Leo.
prenzlberger
26-05-2009, 10:29
... my first modding attempt?
I have received three 4562s for my 7520, one, in case I screw up.
Could someone perhaps post a picture of the 7520 insides and mark, which pieces I need to exchange?
Any special trick in removing and installing these tiny bits?
Sorry, to barge in with such basic questions, but I don't want to destroy the 7520 ;)
ciao for now
eckhard
StanleyB
26-05-2009, 13:57
There are several pictures in this same thread that show the exact things you are after. So you'll have to browse through the whole lot I am afraid. It takes time, but well worth it.
Stan
Just received the Wolfson WM8716 DAC chip in readiness for the upgrade. I am a little pushed for time at the moment and I don't want to rush it so I'll keep you informed of the swap when I get round to it.
Also in the mailing I ordered a AD826 op-amp which I have just installed in the headphone socket.
I'll leave it burning in but first impressions are very good - I have been looking for the word to describe the sound - And that word is "Refined" with a capital R!
This chip is without doubt the best I have tried to date IMHO - really makes the K701's sing - Not a hint of bad manners like the 4032, it just reproduces music - And how.
I advise you try one (or two). I can hardly wait to hear how this is going to sound with the Wolfson DAC - Ooooh I fell quite excited - Guick nurse, the screens....
Ken
I don't get any popping issues on my TC-7520 with WM8716.
I got a set of the 49720 from Simon (YP53 on ebay), and hope to try them over the weekend. He has bought a TC-7520 for opamp testing, so hopefully we'll get some more useful info from that direction.
Stan
How did you find the 49720's Stan?
My TC-7520 is now Wolf powered!
I have just completed the swap - And it's not a job for the faint of heart. Getting the old chip out was pretty straightforward, but installing the WM8716 proved a challenge and no mistake ;).
It's quite difficult to hold the soldering iron steady whilst reaching into the guts of the 7520 - And the DAC's pins are only 0.65mm between centres. If you decide to tackle the job yourself, make sure you have some de-soldering braid and some liquid flux - The job would not be possible without them I don't think.And try not to snag a pin with the braid like I did :doh: - Took ages to get it back in position.
But - Was it worth the effort?
Too right it was !! :)
The difference is not night and day, but to me the music sounds much more natural. Instruments can be positioned better and the whole soundstage is wider and more "airy". And this is just from the headphone out - I haven't tried the line out yet.
I have tried all inputs though, and they all behave fine - No sign of Trailer's "popping" problem.
I'm just going to give the WM8716 the once over with the 10X loupe and if all's OK the lid goes back on the 7520 to stay ...... Until next time :eyebrows:
Ken
My TC-7520 is now Wolf powered!
I have just completed the swap - And it's not a job for the faint of heart. Getting the old chip out was pretty straightforward, but installing the WM8716 proved a challenge and no mistake ;).
It's quite difficult to hold the soldering iron steady whilst reaching into the guts of the 7520 - And the DAC's pins are only 0.65mm between centres. If you decide to tackle the job yourself, make sure you have some de-soldering braid and some liquid flux - The job would not be possible without them I don't think.And try not to snag a pin with the braid like I did :doh: - Took ages to get it back in position.
But - Was it worth the effort?
Too right it was !! :)
The difference is not night and day, but to me the music sounds much more natural. Instruments can be positioned better and the whole soundstage is wider and more "airy". And this is just from the headphone out - I haven't tried the line out yet.
I have tried all inputs though, and they all behave fine - No sign of Trailer's "popping" problem.
I'm just going to give the WM8716 the once over with the 10X loupe and if all's OK the lid goes back on the 7520 to stay ...... Until next time :eyebrows:
Ken
Excellent Ken. It will be interesting to hear what your choice of op-amp would be now.
Excellent Ken. It will be interesting to hear what your choice of op-amp would be now.
Funny you should mention that - I said in a recent post I have fitted an AD826 in the headphone position and I love it :) - It's the best I have tried so far, bar none. So at the moment I am using an LM4562NA in the Line-out, but I will definately be trying an AD826 next time I put an order in.
Just been listening to a couple of tracks with the Senn HD600's from the USB - Super smooth in silk stockings :smoking:
Ken
StanleyB
27-05-2009, 19:32
How did you find the 49720's Stan?
With the WM8716 it reminds me of the Koetsu Gold I used to own.
maxrob200
28-05-2009, 00:52
Koetsu Gold and Signature MC were smooth as silk especially in the mid-range to recall from memory. If the Wolfson DAC is that good compared to the current 7520 DAC it is really something special
I want one!
With the WM8716 it reminds me of the Koetsu Gold I used to own.
Dammit Stan, now you've got me wanting one :doh:
I need to find someone brave enough to perform the mod. There's no way I'd attempt that one.
I've just ordered a couple of AD826's from RS.
I'll have enough to open a second hand op-amp shop shortly. :barrel:
I've just ordered a couple of AD826's from RS.
I'll have enough to open a second hand op-amp shop shortly. :barrel:
I hope you like the AD826 as much as I do. I'll be interested to hear your comparison to the metal can 4562 (or is it the 49720 you have?).
BTW - Did you sort out the "popping" noise on the optical in?
Ken
I hope you like the AD826 as much as I do. I'll be interested to hear your comparison to the metal can 4562 (or is it the 49720 you have?).
BTW - Did you sort out the "popping" noise on the optical in?
Ken
It's the 49720 can I have in at the moment.
I'll get the op-amps tomorrow and I'll have another look (listen?) at the optical again.
Just received the Wolfson WM8716 DAC chip in readiness for the upgrade. I am a little pushed for time at the moment and I don't want to rush it so I'll keep you informed of the swap when I get round to it.
Also in the mailing I ordered a AD826 op-amp which I have just installed in the headphone socket.
I'll leave it burning in but first impressions are very good - I have been looking for the word to describe the sound - And that word is "Refined" with a capital R!
This chip is without doubt the best I have tried to date IMHO - really makes the K701's sing - Not a hint of bad manners like the 4032, it just reproduces music - And how.
I advise you try one (or two). I can hardly wait to hear how this is going to sound with the Wolfson DAC - Ooooh I fell quite excited - Guick nurse, the screens....
Ken
Hello,
What is the original dac chip used in the TC-7520 ?
I tried to search the forum and homehifi.co.uk website, but couldn't find that information ...
Thanks a lot
Hello,
What is the original dac chip used in the TC-7520 ?
I tried to search the forum and homehifi.co.uk website, but couldn't find that information ...
Thanks a lot
Hi, standard DAC chip is a Burr-Brown PCM1716.
Ken
Hi, standard DAC chip is a Burr-Brown PCM1716.
Ken
Thanks
Shanedudddy2
01-06-2009, 07:11
I have wharfedale 9.2 speakers and akg k701 headphones, just wondering whether putting in the AD826 will make a substantial difference to the headphone output from the 7520?
I am using it as a standalone headphone amp.
Thanks
I have wharfedale 9.2 speakers and akg k701 headphones, just wondering whether putting in the AD826 will make a substantial difference to the headphone output from the 7520?
I am using it as a standalone headphone amp.
Thanks
As with all these things, it's always subjective. But personally, I think the AD826 is as good as it gets, and I am using K701's. I have an LM4562NA in the line-out socket which I also think is a good choice.
I suggest you look through the thread - There are several op-amps and combinations you could try, and most are reasonably priced. So have a go at op-amp rolling, there is nothing to lose and plenty to gain :)
Let us know how you get on.
Ken
Received my AD826's today.
:dance:
Very very good.
If you get your 7520 "Wolfsoned" make sure you order an AD826. Like Ken has mentioned the sound is very refined and smooth. Just like it should be.
Thanks for the tip!
I checked out the optical again whilst I had the unit unplugged. Same old popping on the right channel. It isn't the optical cable as I checked it on the DVD player. It isn't present on the co-ax. I checked pretty much all of what you suggested Leo but nothing obvious appeared.
Anyone using the AD826 with a THS4032 in the line-out socket? If so any problems?
Are you using the 826 in the line-out too? I am wondering, as I'm sure many are, if it gives better results than the 4032.
Anyone using the AD826 with a THS4032 in the line-out socket? If so any problems?
Hi Rob,
Personally, I lost a bit of favour with the 4032 - Can be a great sounding chip, no doubt about that, but I couldn't live with it's little problems (instability?) - clicking between tracks etc. So I now use a LM4562NA in the line-out socket - Still a very good sounding op-amp, but much better behaved.
Ken
machinehead
03-06-2009, 16:51
Please advise what is involved in fitting a 7520 with the OPA627's?
Do you need to double them, or is it still two total? Any adapters necessary?
I see they come in an 8 pin confige, but they are PDIP not MDIP.
Please advise what is involved in fitting a 7520 with the OPA627's?
Do you need to double them, or is it still two total? Any adapters necessary?
I see they come in an 8 pin confige, but they are PDIP not MDIP.
The OPA627 now has a big brother - The OPA827 - Maybe you would like to try that?
Either way, you are better obtaining a pre-mounted pair of SOIC's on a single adapter like these here:
http://cimarrontechnology.com/twopre-mountedopa627auop-ampson020302adapterpnopa627au-020302s-1.aspx
Hellish expensive especially if you are upgrading both op-amps in the 7520. Not worth it IMHO, but if you decide to go for it - Let us know how they sound.
Ken
TeTsuo36
04-06-2009, 15:31
Hi all,
i have had my 7520 just over 2 weeks now (burning in 24/7) and it is very good quality. I had bought dual OPA627 on a B/D adaptor from a UK guy on ebay. (art of sound user: apmusson) on this thread, also bought one, so hopefully he will comment on it too.
Impressions were positive yet i had a weird nagging mixed feeling. I am not good at describing sounds but here goes. Firstly it was very, very smooth, velvety infact. Very detailed and clear but really soft with it. Bass was reduced compared to the THS4032, with not as much impact. Acoustic music was really very beautiful, brought big smiles all round, with a hint in the back of my mind that it didn't sound real in someway. The 4032 just seemed to present the music really honestly, whereas the OPA627 seemed to be doing 'something' more to the music, to give it feeling of liquidity. There was certainly an ethereal quality to the sound, extremely delicate and refined if you like, a little like a dream v reality.
I can't say i could choose a winner out of the OPA627 and THS4032. I had some friends round on Saturday and we knocked out a load of varied tracks and i put the THS4032 in and it worked really well. But sometimes late in the evening if i want to listen to something like Sheila Jordan or Diana Krall the OPA627 will be going back in and i can be transported to a different world.
Not exactly scientific i know.
Regards, Mark.
prenzlberger
05-06-2009, 16:18
I did it ... installed a pair of LM4562NA in my TC7520!
For you seasoned rollers, this may just be worth a yawn, but this old man here had never opened any piece of equipment before ..... and it was a breeze. (Thanks, Stan)
I didn't do it, because I was missing something in the base 7520's sound, but rather, because I was inspired by you guys. ;)
Did it bring something? Well, yes, it did.
I listen primarily to chamber and small ensemble music, which thrives on openness. My STAX electrostatics are superb for that type of music.
Replacing the OpAmps has resulted in what I can only describe as a more analogue almost tubey sound.
I believe the entire midrange becomes richer, which benefits celli and voices in particular.
Now, I also need a small, portable USB DAC/Amp for my iPhone, which I could take along on business trips. How about, Stan?
Covenant
05-06-2009, 16:53
Beware Prenz, you are on a slippery slope to DIY land....
I am thinking about building a pair of monoblock amps from kits just because I changed an op-amp.
Covenant
05-06-2009, 18:12
Steady on old chap.
Strictly no soldering-just wires to connector blocks. I can hear you tut tutting from here.
Just to confirm...
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=5228130#header
These are the correct ones? Thought I'd ask to be cautious.
Yep, I think these last two pages can be moved, if I can work out how:scratch: don't want to clog up Stans thread anymore
Just to confirm...
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=5228130#header
These are the correct ones? Thought I'd ask to be cautious.
Yep, that's the one.
Ken
Yep, that's the one.
Ken
I'm not sure how they would sound in a standard 7520?
I'm not sure how they would sound in a standard 7520?
If AD826 is stable and behaves in this dac it should be rather good, this is one of my favourite op-amps which I've used in a lot of CDP's I've modded.
Its a nice chip as long as it behaves in the circuit its used in, good at driving a wide range of loads so should be suited to driving cans
If AD826 is stable and behaves in this dac it should be rather good, this is one of my favourite op-amps which I've used in a lot of CDP's I've modded.
Its a nice chip as long as it behaves in the circuit its used in, good at driving a wide range of loads so should be suited to driving cans
I was meaning soundwise Leo.
I think most folk seem to prefer something like the 4032 in the 7520 as it brings out the music more.
I found something like the 4032 in the Wolfsoned 7520 too harsh, whereas the AD826 tamed this down and struck the right balance. Just wondering if the AD826 would be "too smooth" in the standard 7520?
I was meaning soundwise Leo.
I think most folk seem to prefer something like the 4032 in the 7520 as it brings out the music more.
I found something like the 4032 in the Wolfsoned 7520 too harsh, whereas the AD826 tamed this down and struck the right balance. Just wondering if the AD826 would be "too smooth" in the standard 7520?
I see:)
I'm not sure how they would sound in a standard 7520?
I did try the AD826 before I swapped the DAC chip, but only for a short time. It certainly works better with the WM8716, but I think I would have kept the 826 even with the PCM1716, especially with K701 cans. However, the sound could be just a little too laid back with headphones like the Senn HD600's - Or a speaker setup that is already on the "warm" side.
Ken
Ok, about time I add my further thoughts on this DAC after my last post (#140).
After installing the THS4032 op amp, this improved and opened up the overall sound and well, there was just more of everything. A very definite and worthwhile upgrade. Perhaps a little analytical however, just a little, somewhat hi-fi sounding.
I have now since installed the Burr Brown OPA2107 op amp and have to say that this, THIS, ..... is what I have been looking for. More body in the bass and upper mids and a super smooth top end that does not encourage harshness or unwanted sibilance. In vacuum tube terms - its lake a RCA 5692 versus any other 6sn7 gt tube! I am using this with 300B SE vacuum tube amps, hence the analogy .... The BB OPA2107 is like the OPA627, so it has been said, though at a lesser cost.
I also use the Apogee DUET, but the Beresford 7520 with OPA2107 now is my prefered choice. The DUET is not capable of driving the Sennheiser HD650, though, you will read comments that it does drive them,, blet me say that it does not... you may think it does until you hear the HD650 driven properly. The Beresford is absolutely capable of driving the HD650.
Just my thoughts and to mention that great chip - the OPA2107 that is another that you may want to play about with!!!!
DerrO
Was the OPA2107 a straight plug in replacement? Are you using in both sockets, or just to drive the line outs?
StanleyB
07-06-2009, 22:15
Anyone tried the MLC5/MLC6 mod yet? I showed a picture of it some time ago. They are the two yellow caps (100pF) either side of the first opamp. It works very well with the NE5532 and LM4562. The THS4032 might have too much of a slew rate for that mod though. Just cut one side of the leg on each of the cap. That way you can solder it back reasonably easy if you don't notice a difference etc. In case you wonder what it does: it gives a more analogue sound with the NE5532 and LM4562.
Stan
Was the OPA2107 a straight plug in replacement? Are you using in both sockets, or just to drive the line outs?
Yes, the OPA2107 is a straight drop in replacement and yes, I am using them in both positions.
Hope this helps.
Derro
Affinity
08-06-2009, 01:42
I'm using the THS4032 now, but i'm looking for a warmer, fuller sound. Does the OPA2107 provide this? And where did you buy it?
I'm using the THS4032 now, but i'm looking for a warmer, fuller sound. Does the OPA2107 provide this? And where did you buy it?
I know exactly what you mean and absolutely, the OPA2107 does indeed give you that slightly warmer and fuller sound with more body to it. I do believe that this could be exactly what you are looking for.
I bought it from my local RS- Radionics shop in Dublin. Part No 263-453 and are €18 each, plus vat. A common enough chip so should be no problem getting it from other sources - Farnell or RS....
Regards
Derro
StanleyB
08-06-2009, 09:04
Do the MLC5/MLC6 mod and you'll have a warmer and fuller sound.
Stan
rhmjmango
08-06-2009, 09:33
Do the MLC5/MLC6 mod and you'll have a warmer and fuller sound.
Stan
Hi Stan,
Not so easy to cut one of he legs. its so tight down there to get access to the legs. What kind of plier did you use?:scratch:
Rob
StanleyB
08-06-2009, 09:42
I use a pair of hobbyist electronic side cutters. You can of course desolder the caps.
Stan
Anyone tried the MLC5/MLC6 mod yet? I showed a picture of it some time ago. They are the two yellow caps (100pF) either side of the first opamp. It works very well with the NE5532 and LM4562. The THS4032 might have too much of a slew rate for that mod though. Just cut one side of the leg on each of the cap. That way you can solder it back reasonably easy if you don't notice a difference etc. In case you wonder what it does: it gives a more analogue sound with the NE5532 and LM4562.
Stan
Hi Stan,
I notice there are also 2 extra 100uf 'lytics in that photo straddling a couple of resistors (although you can't quite see where one of the legs is going on the right cap). Is this part of the same mod, or something different?
I shall give the MLC5/6 mod a go this week. Could be just what I am after. I love the detail and the extra control in the bass that the 4032 gives, but I do find listening fatigue creeps in after a while, it's just that bit too bright. I guess my Mark I Arcs don't help here though. So I'm back on the 4532 for now.
StanleyB
08-06-2009, 09:59
The extra caps are part of a long term experiment in order to see if they make a difference. So ignore them until I have valid test results.
Thanks Stan, shouldn't take to long to mod then. I'll provide some feedback when I've had chance for a good listen.
Might just have to order some OPA2107s to try at the same time - Thanks for that Derro.
Covenant
08-06-2009, 13:46
It just shows how system dependant these mods are. I really like the 4032 as I find it has the best control of deep bass. Dont find it fatiguing at all-the 4562 on the other hand was 'lazy' with bass notes.
It just shows how system dependant these mods are. I really like the 4032 as I find it has the best control of deep bass. Dont find it fatiguing at all-the 4562 on the other hand was 'lazy' with bass notes.
Completely agree with you about bass control between the two chips. The problem I have is that my speakers are BRIGHT, so they do need a bit of taming, so I've just ordered some OPA2107s to try out.
Have performed the mod to remove the two caps this evening. Initial impressions are good - midrange clarity has improved which has had a real impact on making wind instruments sound more natural. Vocals are more intimate too. Bass also seems more tuneful, that monotone bass that the 4562 has been accused of has eased somewhat. Still not as low and well controlled as the 4032, but a definite improvement.
StanleyB
08-06-2009, 19:04
Have performed the mod to remove the two caps this evening. Initial impressions are good - midrange clarity has improved which has had a real impact on making wind instruments sound more natural. Vocals are more intimate too. Bass also seems more tuneful, that monotone bass that the 4562 has been accused of has eased somewhat. Still not as low and well controlled as the 4032, but a definite improvement.
Leave the space left over from the removed caps clear. I am working on a solution for the 4562 to address its low frequency response.
Affinity
08-06-2009, 19:37
I just wanna doublecheck here before ordering the op amp. It's the OPA2107AP from Burr Brown i want? Can i use that in the Line out and the 4032 in the headphone out?
I just wanna doublecheck here before ordering the op amp. It's the OPA2107AP from Burr Brown i want? Can i use that in the Line out and the 4032 in the headphone out?
Yes and yes!!!
Derro
drumlins4ever
09-06-2009, 00:06
Had a 4032 in for weeks now, absolutely no stability problems , still sound great .
Leave the space left over from the removed caps clear. I am working on a solution for the 4562 to address its low frequency response.
Understood. Glad I took the time to completely remove those caps now, rather than just cut the legs. One thing to add after a bit more of a listening session last night.. Piano now sounds sublime. You can hear the weight being applied to the keys. That brought a real smile to my face.
rhmjmango
09-06-2009, 18:24
Do the MLC5/MLC6 mod and you'll have a warmer and fuller sound.
Stan
Hi Stan,
Does this mod also 'work' on the headphone section. If not why is that?
Rob
dikyllis
10-06-2009, 17:49
just want to ask
the opamp roll, affects the headamp or/and both rca?
StanleyB
10-06-2009, 17:54
Does this mod also 'work' on the headphone section. If not why is that?:scratch:
Affinity
10-06-2009, 18:22
just want to ask
the opamp roll, affects the headamp or/and both rca?
There are two op amps, one for line out and one for headphone out.
dikyllis
12-06-2009, 00:10
There are two op amps, one for line out and one for headphone out.
which is which, left for line out or headout?
Anyone else tried the OPA2107 yet? Installed it in the line out today, and an AD826 in the headphone socket. It's staying in there I think, as it seems to be doing a really good job. Cleaner and more focused than the 4032 I reckon.
The AD826 I still haven't given a proper listen to yet, but seems nicer to listen to with less nasties than the 4562 on headphones. I plan on testing the 2107 on the headphones once its been run a bit, to see if its worth sourcing a second one.
StanleyB
12-06-2009, 19:23
Which other British DAC offers all these possibilities for experimenting with opamps and DAC chips;)?
Stan
Finally had chance to listen to the 7520 (mainly fixed output) , people who know me will say I'm a picky scroat which is why I normally stick with diy, also I enjoy fiddling:o
Anyway I must say the 7520 is a nice little dac and certainly one of the better commercial offerings! its midrange is sweet and quite weighty which I found surprising, I recently repaired a modded TC-7510 (mod21 and Mod21 pt2 ,LM4562) IMHO the 7520 as is betters it, certainly more there in the vocals and a more involving listen to my ears
Any gripes? for what these sell for NO! I'd like a bit more depth , a bit more focus etc but bear in mind this is a totally stock unit.
I've been busy with work but was thinking of doing a Sticky thread for mods/tweaks etc as soon as I can seeing as nobody else bit when hinted a few times :lol: , it will hopefully make things easier for folks to find since this thread is getting huge :)
Anyone else tried the OPA2107 yet? Installed it in the line out today, and an AD826 in the headphone socket. It's staying in there I think, as it seems to be doing a really good job. Cleaner and more focused than the 4032 I reckon.
The AD826 I still haven't given a proper listen to yet, but seems nicer to listen to with less nasties than the 4562 on headphones. I plan on testing the 2107 on the headphones once its been run a bit, to see if its worth sourcing a second one.
Will do soon:)
Heres a list I intend on trying
OPA2132
LM4562
THS4032
OPA2107
AD826
AD8066
what ever others I have
StanleyB
12-06-2009, 20:40
I have had a play with some TPA6120 opamps, but their ultra extreme slew rate and bandwidth scares me. The LM4562NA with MLC5/MLC6 mod is good enough for the majority of my own listening experience with my audio gear.
STan
I have had a play with some TPA6120 opamps, but their ultra extreme slew rate and bandwidth scares me. The LM4562NA with MLC5/MLC6 mod is good enough for the majority of my own listening experience with my audio gear.
STan
Just tried with LM4562 for fixed output first with MLC5/MLC6
and then with these caps removed
Loads better with them removed if using 4562 ;) lets this op-amp breath and its well stable :smoking:
I didn't rate LM4562 in the second position, its not that great at driving capacitive loads , I'll have a closer look at the circuit later, didn't notice if theres low value resistors on the op-amps output
I'm now running AD826 which so far works well
TPA6120 is quite a beastie , AD815 is similar, Walt Jung written a few articles on the 815
lupo_yellow
17-06-2009, 15:36
Hi all,
do you think The AD826 would be a good choice to use with Sennheiser 650's?
Thanks
Kevin
StanleyB
17-06-2009, 16:44
The LM4562 sounds brilliant with my HD650.
Stan
lupo_yellow
17-06-2009, 20:03
Thanks for that Stan.
It is fantastic that I can get advice from the manufacturer of this DAC.
I can't imagine getting a reply from the boss of Sony if I asked a question :)
Kevin.
PS Do I need to remove any capacitors when just using the headphone output?
Anyone here ended up trying LME49860 with the 7520.
LME49860 is supposed to the the same as LM4562 but its said to sound better than it. I guess its kinda like how metal can LM4562 is said to sound better than the plastic ones.
HighFidelityGuy
18-06-2009, 09:20
Hi chaps, it's been a while since I checked in here and it seems like some good progress has been made.
I've got a question about the MLC5/MLC6 mod: Is this mod likely to improve the sound of the 49720 metal cans seen as they are very similar to the LM4562?
Thanks.
I am quite surprised how much the op-amps interact with one another.
I took delivery of my OPA2107s today and have just spent the last hour trying them out. At first I just fitted one to the line output and left the headphone op-amp side with my trusty LM4562. Played a couple of songs and it just sounded dull with some serious roll off in the treble. So out of curiosity I put the other 2107 into the headphone socket and hey presto - the treble and the life returns. It's certainly the smoothest and warmest of the chips I've tried so far but I think the bass is over emphasised, but this is with the two caps MLC5/6 removed which may have a bearing on this. I shall give it some more time over the weekend for a more extended listen.
Hi chaps, it's been a while since I checked in here and it seems like some good progress has been made.
I've got a question about the MLC5/MLC6 mod: Is this mod likely to improve the sound of the 49720 metal cans seen as they are very similar to the LM4562?
Thanks.
The internal structure/topology of those op-amps is the same so this mod should work just fine:)
Infact apart from the name I can't see any difference
HighFidelityGuy
19-06-2009, 09:01
The internal structure/topology of those op-amps is the same so this mod should work just fine:)
Infact apart from the name I can't see any difference
Thanks Leo, I thought that would be the case. I think the 49720's are just a renamed version of the metal can version of the LM4562. I might give this a try to see how it compares against the THS4032 which is my current favourite.
I really wish I had a spare opamp board so I could do a quick swap between various opamps and mods. As I mentioned before it would be great if we could buy these separately.
StanleyB
19-06-2009, 09:38
I really wish I had a spare opamp board so I could do a quick swap between various opamps and mods. As I mentioned before it would be great if we could buy these separately.
I am organizing this. Hopefully I shall have it sorted in July. I want to add some mods on that spare PCB as well. Just need to find a nice little box to pack it in properly, and do a set of fitting instructions.
Stan
HighFidelityGuy
19-06-2009, 10:19
I am organizing this. Hopefully I shall have it sorted in July. I want to add some mods on that spare PCB as well. Just need to find a nice little box to pack it in properly, and do a set of fitting instructions.
Stan
Fantastic, nice one Stan! This will be so useful.
In that case I'll wait until these are available before I start de-soldering caps.
Do you know roughly how much you'll be selling these for yet?
Thanks! :)
StanleyB
19-06-2009, 10:50
Do you know roughly how much you'll be selling these for yet?
Nope. I don't want to grab a ficticious figure out of the air, and take my fan base to the cleaners. I have to find out how much tax etc I have to pay on it. My wish is for it to be less than £40 delivered to anywhere in the world, or less than £30 to anywhere in Europe.
Stan
HighFidelityGuy
19-06-2009, 10:57
Nope. I don't want to grab a ficticious figure out of the air, and take my fan base to the cleaners. I have to find out how much tax etc I have to pay on it. My wish is for it to be less than £40 delivered to anywhere in the world, or less than £30 to anywhere in Europe.
Stan
Ok, that's fair enough. Thanks for the ballpark figures. :)
Cheers.
Hello all,
I would like to thank Stan first, and foremost for making an excellent product. After reading all of your posts here I decided to make the purchase for a 7520 and it sounds great. I also purchased the LM4562 amps and installed it thanks to all of you. The sound seems to have much more weight to it not to mention the bass is a lot more control. I love the sound now it just sounds more alive. I am also waiting for the ths4032 amps and can't wait to plug those in. But thanks again to all here making my current system come alive. It now sounds way better than my old Arcam CD73 unit the harsh/shrill on the top is gone.
Cheers,
tc
AudioFile808
19-06-2009, 18:48
has anyone tried the MLC5/MLC6 mod? i'm interested in it but can't because i have no soldering skills. if it really does make it sound more analogue, that'd be pretty interesting. hopefully, stan can add this mod as an upgrade later on in their website.
i'm currently digging the sound of the THS4032CD's that i bought form Tirna. :smoking:
StanleyB
22-06-2009, 08:05
Except for the TC-7520, does anyone else makes a DAC where the DAC chip can be replaced without any circuit modifications?
Stan
Except for the TC-7520, does anyone else makes a DAC where the DAC chip can be replaced without any circuit modifications?
Stan
The old Pink Triangles had replaceable filters, Philips 1307, HDCD etc. Mind you I seem to remember that the filters cost as much as a new 7520.
Affinity
24-06-2009, 14:55
I managed to fuck up the op amp in my headphone out when changing op amps today. does anything happen to the sound in the line out if i don't use an op-amp in the headphone out? - I'm pretty sure i hear some kinda light distortion, does anyone know what i could be?
I'm using a BB OPA2107 in the line out..
Can't you replace it (hpa) with the line-out op amp you took out (they're identical, so that gives you one extra).
twelvebears
26-06-2009, 11:10
I've just recieved a pair of 4032s from Tirna Electronics on eBay, pre-fitted with the required cap and they fitted straight in without any problems. Fine on lid clearance too.
Sounding very nice.
I run mine with a 4032 as well, and very happy too!
I wonder...would the mod to remove the two caps (mcml6/6) be applicable for someone running the 4032, or would it just apply to the LM4562NA Amp?
Thanks.
From what I recall I don't *THINK* this mod is suitable for the 4032, and could possibly make it unstable. Something to do with a high slew rate I believe, which doesn't affect op-amps such as the 4562, 2107, etc..
The above paragraph may be complete tosh, hopefully someone will correct me if it is :lolsign:
Have you listened to headphones yet? I wasn't able to run a pair of 4032, as the HPA got very distorted. Always possible that my Senn 595s' 50 ohm impedance was too low for that config.
I've just recieved a pair of 4032s from Tirna Electronics on eBay, pre-fitted with the required cap and they fitted straight in without any problems. Fine on lid clearance too.
Sounding very nice.
http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/beresford.shtml
HighFidelityGuy
30-06-2009, 13:11
Hmm, interesting. It seems a bit dodgy to me that they're offering the same mods for 7510 and 7520 when they have different designs. :scratch:
I'd be interested to hear what Stan has to say about those mods.
StanleyB
30-06-2009, 16:08
I guess I should increase my prices for mods...
Stan
Covenant
30-06-2009, 16:19
Hmm, interesting. It seems a bit dodgy to me that they're offering the same mods for 7510 and 7520 when they have different designs. :scratch:
I'd be interested to hear what Stan has to say about those mods.
Now look what you have gone and done!:doh:
Seems a lot of money when you think the op-amp and adaptor is only about £12.
Leo's view on these mods would be welcome as well.
At least they tell you what you get for your money and offer options ranging in price, obviously considered a bit pricey for the diy bodgers amongst us but for those not capable of using a soldering iron should offer some performance boost
I've actually fitted some of their Spower regs in somebodys cdp a while ago so know how those ones perform, their pretty good although not cheap
BTW I notice in the more expensive mods apart from the upgraded regs the amount of Rubycon ZA caps adds up, I'd imagine these are going to replace a lot of the tants Stan chose to use around the dac, receiver etc.
These type of caps do have an effect on the sound and will effect tone IMHO, they will sound noticeably different to the tants
Covenant
30-06-2009, 17:32
Well I think I will stick with the Cayman!
StanleyB
30-06-2009, 19:36
BTW I notice in the more expensive mods apart from the upgraded regs the amount of Rubycon ZA caps adds up, I'd imagine these are going to replace a lot of the tants Stan chose to use around the dac, receiver etc.
These type of caps do have an effect on the sound and will effect tone IMHO, they will sound noticeably different to the tants
The tantalums are only handling digital signals, where they perform a crucial function in keeping the clock timing accurate. Swapping them over for those Rubycons is going to cause some negative effects. I tried that already in the TC-7510 MKII and had to abandon the idea in the MKIII. The sound was very incoherent in complex musical arrangements.
What would be the general concensus on the power mods?
Covenant
30-06-2009, 20:23
So this company has simply replaced medium priced components with higher quality ones in the belief than an improvement will be forthcoming.
I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot bargepole.
It must get you very annoyed Stan after all the time and effort you have spent on development.
StanleyB
30-06-2009, 20:39
What would be the general concensus on the power mods?
If you really want to try out some high quality regulators, then you need to look at the Murata 7812SR and the Murata 7805SR. You'll need a 15V regulated DC external supply to go with that as well however.
I've just recieved a pair of 4032s from Tirna Electronics on eBay, pre-fitted with the required cap and they fitted straight in without any problems. Fine on lid clearance too.
Sounding very nice.
Hi all,
I've just brought a 7520 and would like to try installing a pair of 4032s. I noticed the ones from Tirna Electronics on eBay which allow 'plug 'n play' installation.
The only question I have is which way around to install them. Tirna mark which is pin 1 but I can't see which is pin 1 on the socket.
If someone could point me in the right directon I'd be extremely grateful.
Thanks,
Andy.
Read through Leo's sticky thread in this section of the forum.
apmusson
02-07-2009, 19:55
Have you listened to headphones yet? I wasn't able to run a pair of 4032, as the HPA got very distorted. Always possible that my Senn 595s' 50 ohm impedance was too low for that config.
That could be the case. The 4032 sounds fantastic with my HD650's (200 ohm impedance). Sorry that I havent been very active for the past month, I've just moved house and had no internet.
Ade
lingling1337
09-07-2009, 20:28
Hey all, I ordered a THS4032 from Tirna last saturday, can't wait for it to show up! However, I'm already being tempted by newer technologies... I saw on the Beresford North America web page that there was an upgrade service ($75 to change out a damn socketed opamp). The only interesting bit, besides the incredible rates they are charging, was a tidbit about the possibility of offering an upgrade to discrete opamps. I emailed Jeff at Beresford NA about it and would like to post the transcript here:
Me: Just making sure I have this right, it is $75 plus shipping to swap in a new socketed opamp? Will you guys do a swap to a WM8716 DAC chip?
Me: I am also wondering about the discrete opamp modification. Is there any more detail that I can hear on that?
Jeff: Thanks for your interest. You are correct the fee for the upgrade is to swap out the opamps. Unfortunately we are not going to swap out the DAC chips at this time.
Jeff: The discrete opamp is 4 small boards arranged in a cube shape that does not use any integrated circuits, but uses
discrete components to do the job of an opamp. We use a 100 mm harness to be able to locate the opamp inside
case of the 7520. Due to the size you will have to choose whether you want the discrete opamp on the linestage or the
headphone amp. The other circuit will get the LM4562NA opamp upgrade.
Me:Can I get more information on the discrete opamp? model number or specs or something? And how much would it cost to get it installed into the head amp?
Jeff:We have not finalized a price yet, but expect it to be in the $150 range including shipping. We are not releasing specs on this unit.
Me: Do you read the ArtOfSound forums, where Stan and many other DIYers hang out? They have detailed many DIY mods for the TC7520, including opamp and DAC chip swapping. Will there be similar discussion on the discrete opamps? That is to say, will there be a way for DIYers to to do this sort of mod themselves without sending their DAC out to a Beresford location?
Jeff: I am familiar with the Art of Sound, and think it is a great resource. The service we are offering is based on our research of different opamps and their sound qualities. We are offering this service for customers that are not inclined to do this type of mod themselves
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
That's the end of the line. Quite interesting stuff. I've posted this in hopes of sparking discussion about DIYing discrete opamps as I said in my emails.
StanleyB
09-07-2009, 21:00
Good old AoS, where priceless information is available for free...
In any case, the Caiman will only be available from one place.
Stan
As regular readers of this forum already know, I know very little about such matters, but just in case it may be of some interest to more knowledgeable DIYers, does the following items have any relevance to 7520 modding?
http://cgi.ebay.com/2x-PCM1794-24-bit-192-kHz-DAC-IC-Location-USA_W0QQitemZ110410503162QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item19b4fa93fa&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C 293%3A1%7C294%3A50#ebayphotohosting
Hope it's of interest to someone.
Cheers,
lingling1337
10-07-2009, 01:06
Good old AoS, where priceless information is available for free...
In any case, the Caiman will only be available from one place.
Stan
This Caiman... how are the innards different from the TC7520, aside from the WM8716 and new opamps?
StanleyB
10-07-2009, 06:14
This Caiman... how are the innards different from the TC7520, aside from the WM8716 and new opamps?
It's almost the same. Just read up on the various TC-7520 mods in order to build your own version of the Caiman. A few people have.
The 'original' TC-7520 design was built with those bits. That's why you can swap those chips over in the TC-7520 without any extra work, but you can't do the same in the TC-7510. The only extra change you need to make is to remove MLC5/6. Those are part of an analogue active filter circuit. The Caiman doesn't need any analogue active filters in its signal path.
As far as I know, the Caiman will be the world's only 64X oversampling DAC for HIFI consumer use, and possibly the only one without an active filter in the audio path as well. But I stand corrected.
I would only recommend the Caiman to people who have a quite good audio set up as far as amp and speakers goes. The added performance is far more enjoyable and noticeable when paired with better gear. The far higher retail price associated with the limited production run is also only likely to be appreciated by those who can afford not to be asking for a discount;).
Stan
Good old AoS, where priceless information is available for free...
In any case, the Caiman will only be available from one place.
Stan
And don't forget the advertising of the goods is free as well!
Regards
Chris
StanleyB
10-07-2009, 08:08
And don't forget the advertising of the goods is free as well!
Regards
Chris
It depends which way you look at that. Other sites ask for money AND/or free samples. If one has to pay such a price, it is never clear whether the product is good or whether the shill sellers are making sure advertising revenues are rolling in.
At least AoS only allows outstanding audio components to be mentioned with regularity. Like the 103, 1200, etc. Just to name a view.
Stan
lingling1337
10-07-2009, 14:53
I've read through all 88 pages here and the whole "collection of Mods" thread. So removing MLC5/6, swap in WM8716, and add new opamp (I believe it's LM4562NA) are the steps to homebrewing a Caiman? BTW, I grudgingly thank you for making all this info, to create our own Caiman and DIY knowledge in general, available to us, the consumer.
Covenant
10-07-2009, 15:00
Grudgingly? Why? What an odd thing to say.::scratch:
Because Jerry it wasn't handed to him on a 'plate' with easy to read how to's...;)
StanleyB
10-07-2009, 15:40
I've read through all 88 pages here and the whole "collection of Mods" thread. So removing MLC5/6, swap in WM8716, and add new opamp (I believe it's LM4562NA) are the steps to homebrewing a Caiman? BTW, I grudgingly thank you for making all this info, to create our own Caiman and DIY knowledge in general, available to us, the consumer.
You don't have to do those mods. You can quite happily use the TC-7520 as it is, or buy the Caiman very soon with all the mods.
The bog standard TC-7520 has been tested against he Lavry10, DAC1,Apogee, Naim CDP range, etc. and the TC-7520 came out tops according to all the owners. The headamp section alone has been judged to be as good or better than many headphone amps costing several times more. The USB section has been found to be one of the best below £1K.
So all in all the TC-7520 can hold its head against the best DACs and headphone amps out there.
The mods merely lifts it above the rest with a number of class leading or unique features. Where can you get all this for less than £1K:confused:?
STan
lingling1337
10-07-2009, 15:44
Because Jerry it wasn't handed to him on a 'plate' with easy to read how to's...;)
You're kind of a prick. You haven't read the emails between Stan and myself. What I was saying was, we certainly have our differences but he does a decent job of reaching out to his target audience, for better or for worse.
You don't have to do those mods. You can quite happily use the TC-7520 as it is, or buy the Caiman very soon with all the mods.
The bog standard TC-7520 has been tested against he Lavry10, DAC1,Apogee, Naim CDP range, etc. and the TC-7520 came out tops according to all the owners. The headamp section alone has been judged to be as good or better than many headphone amps costing several times more. The USB section has been found to be one of the best below £1K.
So all in all the TC-7520 can hold its head against the best DACs and headphone amps out there.
The mods merely lifts it above the rest with a number of class leading or unique features. Where can you get all this for less than £1K:confused:?
STan
I actually would love to try these mods that you and others have detailed here on these forums. I'm one for squeezing every last drop of performance out of my gear.
So, on a subject that you so artfully dodged in my emails, what do you know of discrete opamps? Or is that something that Jeff is working on solo (or with the rest of the Beresford NA crew, if there is one)?
StanleyB
10-07-2009, 15:45
Because Jerry it wasn't handed to him on a 'plate' with easy to read how to's...;)
Then there is always this:
http://www.beresford.me/images/CaimanS.jpg
lingling1337
10-07-2009, 15:49
Then there is always this:
snip
Photoshop or real design?
BTW please check out my edited post #885
Then there is always this:
http://www.beresford.me/images/CaimanS.jpg
Looks the bizz Stan.
Might just have to try one in front of my Avondale power amps.
Regards
Chris
StanleyB
10-07-2009, 15:58
Photoshop or real design?
That's the real deal.
STan
lingling1337
10-07-2009, 15:59
That's the real deal.
STan
Again, about those discrete opamps. Do you have anything to do with it or is it just a Beresford NA project?
StanleyB
10-07-2009, 16:10
Again, about those discrete opamps. Do you have anything to do with it or is it just a Beresford NA project?
I can only speak about what you see advertised on my site at beresford.me or homehifi.co.uk. Anything else you see on sale on any other site that is not on my site has nothing to do with me.
Stan
lingling1337
10-07-2009, 18:03
OK, thanks for clearing that up.
Most discrete op-amps I've seen have much worse linearity than most IC based types especially if ran at the sort of low voltages found in majority of dacs
People see the word discrete and presume its got to mean better;)
lingling1337
10-07-2009, 20:18
Most discrete op-amps I've seen have much worse linearity than most IC based types especially if ran at the sort of low voltages found in majority of dacs
People see the word discrete and presume its got to mean better;)
Care to explain any further?
Looking good Stan, quite understated I like It.
I have a Cayman already, just need to get a Wolfson Dac chip soldered in there!
Shame this is an impossibility for someone like me with no electronics or soldering experience!
Will the Cayman have 4562's in the line out stan?
If you want that not to Be common knowledge I'd understand.
Just working out how far my 7520 with 4562 and Mc5/6 mod if far removed from the Cayman!
Care to explain any further?
Discretes are only good imo if they are designed specifically for the circuit they are used in and not something suitable to be used in a range of other circuits.
Trying to make a discrete device like a standard op-amp IC containing dozens of transistors is not easy, track,layout,components used (normally through hole) add compromises
StanleyB
10-07-2009, 23:34
Just working out how far my 7520 with 4562 and Mc5/6 mod if far removed from the Cayman!
Not by much. Except for the 192KHz 64X oversampling WM8716 and the Caiman logo you are about there already.
I was hoping to have a Caiman branded power supply ready as well, but that's going to take at least another two months to complete, funds permitting. I hope to offer it as a free part exchange to any Caiman DAC buyer as long as people pay the postage and send me back the standard TC-7520 PSU that I have to use until the Caiman branded version is ready. I reckon it might be nice to have both DAC and PSU with the same model name.
Stan
You're kind of a prick. You haven't read the emails between Stan and myself. What I was saying was, we certainly have our differences but he does a decent job of reaching out to his target audience, for better or for worse.
I actually would love to try these mods that you and others have detailed here on these forums. I'm one for squeezing every last drop of performance out of my gear.
So, on a subject that you so artfully dodged in my emails, what do you know of discrete opamps? Or is that something that Jeff is working on solo (or with the rest of the Beresford NA crew, if there is one)?
Oooh! class. 11 posts on the forum and you lead in with a kick in the balls!... Stunning...well constructed post you're a real piece of work.
Oooh! class. 11 posts on the forum and you lead in with a kick in the balls!... Stunning...well constructed post you're a real piece of work.
Thats a few of us already who's had a kick in the balls:lol:
Ah! yes Leo...I can take it from you, Stan, Marco etc but not from a noddy... ;)
AudioFile808
11-07-2009, 11:04
i am confused...what is this "caiman" you guys speak of? will this be an upgraded TC7520 with the Mc5/6 mod?, new dac chip, and opamps? will it be using 4562 opamps and not compatible with 4032? :please:
also, when can we expect this new "caiman" to be available. estimated price tag?
Ali Tait
11-07-2009, 11:27
It's a limited edition by Stan,with a 64x oversampling chip,I think the only commercial DAC around to offer this.Not sure when it will be available.
You're kind of a prick. You haven't read the emails between Stan and myself. What I was saying was, we certainly have our differences but he does a decent job of reaching out to his target audience, for better or for worse.
Guys help out here because they want to, not because they have to.
Its a good bunch on here, but maybe its bad form after only 11 posts to come on here and try to be a cunny funt?
Lets try again, we're all friendly on here :)
AudioFile808
11-07-2009, 12:07
It's a limited edition by Stan,with a 64x oversampling chip,I think the only commercial DAC around to offer this.Not sure when it will be available.
sounds very interesting. stan, couldn't you just offer this as an upgrade package instead of making it a limited edition? :scratch:
i'm really liking my current TC7520 with the 4032 opamps. but definitely want to give the caiman an audition in the future. i have poor electronic knowledge and soldering skills too. :unfair:
StanleyB
11-07-2009, 12:49
sounds very interesting. stan, couldn't you just offer this as an upgrade package instead of making it a limited edition? :scratch:
i'm really liking my current TC7520 with the 4032 opamps.
The Caiman is more of a 'statement' DAC, designed to be a collector's item and at the same time leave the PCM179X series DACs for dead. But it's outside my own retail price comfort zone, so I don't fancy banking on that level of pricing for my daily bread.
A more intriguing prospect for TC-7520 owners is the forthcoming Caiman power supply. It won't be ready for some time yet according to the factory (undergoing EU type approval certification and those test houses take their time), but the prototype is so good I am hoping to offer a money back guarantee to European buyers if it doesn't improve even the bog standard TC-7520. I'll get a few samples and send them out as loaners for a few people to try out and comment on.
Stan
I'll get a few samples and send them out as loaners for a few people to try out and comment on.
Stan
Hi Stan,
Can I put my name down as a candidate for a loaner please? I am seriously in the market for the new PSU on the understanding that your opinion as to the improvement it offers is fulfilled (as your opinions usually are ;)). Whilst I don't have the ears, knowledge or experience in such matters as other members of the forum, if I can appreciate the improvement it must be significant ! :lol:
I shan't fall out with you or stop dealing with you if you can find better candidates :lolsign:.
Cheers,
lingling1337
11-07-2009, 16:15
Discretes are only good imo if they are designed specifically for the circuit they are used in and not something suitable to be used in a range of other circuits.
Trying to make a discrete device like a standard op-amp IC containing dozens of transistors is not easy, track,layout,components used (normally through hole) add compromises
Thank you, that makes much more sense. I'll stick to the standard opamps then.
AudioFile808
11-07-2009, 18:40
stan, how many units of this limited edition caiman would you be making? i am definitely interested in trying it but don't think i have the funds to afford another dac right now.
Stratmangler
11-07-2009, 19:03
You're kind of a prick. You haven't read the emails between Stan and myself. What I was saying was, we certainly have our differences but he does a decent job of reaching out to his target audience, for better or for worse.
Congratulations matey !
You've been on here for five minutes and have started insulting people already.
The quote is just one from a number of slights your postings seem to contain.
You haven't even had the decency to say hello in the entrance hall - you'll find it at the top of the home page.
Drop the attitude and you'll get along fine here - if you can't drop the attitude then you should crawl back under the rock from whence you came.
Chris:steam:
lingling1337
11-07-2009, 19:31
Drop the attitude and you'll get along fine here - if you can't drop the attitude then you should crawl back under the rock from whence you came.
Chris:steam:
Actually my rock is being remodeled, I'm renting a swamp at the moment.
Stan, will the Caiman PSU be available in the States?
StanleyB
11-07-2009, 19:38
stan, how many units of this limited edition caiman would you be making? i am definitely interested in trying it but don't think i have the funds to afford another dac right now.
I am going with the flow. If there is enough long term interest I can always make a 2nd batch. I don't see it as a big money spinner though.
The Caiman PSU, which is suffering from a production delay, will transform your current TC-7520 sufficiently anyhow if you also do the MCL5/6 mod without even having to replace the NE5532. So don't feel left out in the cold.
STan
Actually my rock is being remodeled, I'm renting a swamp at the moment.
Many a true word is spoken in jest !! Just because you share it with other alligators doesn't give you the right to snap at every one you come into contact with. Chillax - we won't bite you, why bite us?
You can rely on information given freely but not necessarily on information given reluctantly.
I am going with the flow. If there is enough long term interest I can always make a 2nd batch. I don't see it as a big money spinner though.
The Caiman PSU, which is suffering from a production delay, will transform your current TC-7520 sufficiently anyhow if you also do the MCL5/6 mod without even having to replace the NE5532. So don't feel left out in the cold.
STan
To GazJam,
Oh dear, it looks as if I'm going to have to do some snipping after all:eyebrows:
Cheers,
lingling1337
11-07-2009, 19:55
On the subject of the Caiman, forgive me if this has already been answered, but why the LM4562 instead of the THS4032?
StanleyB
11-07-2009, 20:06
On the subject of the Caiman, forgive me if this has already been answered, but why the LM4562 instead of the THS4032?
I haven't got the time to offer every combination of opamps on the market. If people don't like my choice then tough luck. Get a TC-7520 and plug in whatever you want. I have kitted out the the Caiman with what I want.
Stan
The Grand Wazoo
11-07-2009, 20:28
Guys help out here because they want to, not because they have to.
Its a good bunch on here, but maybe its bad form after only 11 posts to come on here and try to be ..........
Lets try again, we're all friendly on here
Congratulations matey !
You've been on here for five minutes and have started insulting people already.
The quote is just one from a number of slights your postings seem to contain.
You haven't even had the decency to say hello in the entrance hall - you'll find it at the top of the home page.
Drop the attitude and you'll get along fine here - if you can't drop the attitude then you should crawl back under the rock from whence you came.
Actually my rock is being remodeled, I'm renting a swamp at the moment.
Many a true word is spoken in jest !! Just because you share it with other alligators doesn't give you the right to snap at every one you come into contact with. Chillax - we won't bite you, why bite us?
You can rely on information given freely but not necessarily on information given reluctantly.
Lingling - may I be the latest in a line of people queuing up to point out that your rudeness is not acceptable here - I'm sure this behaviour won't be tolerated for much longer if it continues.
At: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17 are these words & others.............
Arete; Virtuosity and goodness.
Eunoia; Goodwill to those you address.
Phronesis; Using wisdom and knowledge in a practical way.
I'll be using the above as guidelines for how I use this forum, I hope you'll agree.
Things we really like here:
Friendly people.
Differences of opinion discussed sensibly.
Pictures and lots of them!
Humorous banter.
Liberal use of the smilies. etc etc
Things we don't like here:
Defamatory comments about any manufacturers or dealers.
Defamatory comments about any other member of this forum or any other hi-fi forum.
'Willy waving' (i.e. boasting about one's system in a monetary value sense).
Swearing excessively. The occasional bit may slip thorough, but nobody wants to hear 'f this' and 'f that' all day long.
...............which you should read carefully and then decide if you want to remain here to take advantage of the wealth of experience and friendly atmosphere. This is what makes AoS different from the places that you seem to have learnt how to relate to other people.
Please have some respect.
lingling1337
11-07-2009, 22:53
I haven't got the time to offer every combination of opamps on the market. If people don't like my choice then tough luck. Get a TC-7520 and plug in whatever you want. I have kitted out the the Caiman with what I want.
Stan
Easy there, no offense intended. I was actually wondering what sonic or other qualities made you pick the LM4562.
StanleyB
11-07-2009, 23:45
I picked it because that's the one that has been tried and tested and found to be the best bangs for bucks by the various people who used it in their TC-7520.
lingling1337
12-07-2009, 00:28
I picked it because that's the one that has been tried and tested and found to be the best bangs for bucks by the various people who used it in their TC-7520.
Ok, thanks for the clarification.
See how far you get with a kind word? :)
lingling1337
12-07-2009, 20:40
So aside from the opamp swapping, anyone have any bright ideas for bettering the analog output stage? The DAC swapping is all well and good to me, but really, the digital section isn't near as important as the analog portion.
Stratmangler
12-07-2009, 20:58
So aside from the opamp swapping, anyone have any bright ideas for bettering the analog output stage? The DAC swapping is all well and good to me, but really, the digital section isn't near as important as the analog portion.
The op-amp swapping has nothing to do with DAC swapping.
The op-amp swapping has everything to do with modifying the analogue outputs:doh:
Chris;)
lingling1337
12-07-2009, 21:16
The op-amp swapping has nothing to do with DAC swapping.
The op-amp swapping has everything to do with modifying the analogue outputs:doh:
Chris;)
I cited the DAC bit just as a way of showing that the digital section means less to me than the analog.
I'm not sure how the syntax of my post could possibly be that confusing.
Stratmangler
12-07-2009, 21:29
I cited the DAC bit just as a way of showing that the digital section means less to me than the analog.
I'm not sure how the syntax of my post could possibly be that confusing.
Why cite the DAC thing at all ?
In doing so you inferred that you were confusing the two.
At least that's the way I read it.
Chris:)
lingling1337
12-07-2009, 21:31
Why cite the DAC thing at all ?
I cited the DAC bit just as a way of showing that the digital section means less to me than the analog.
.
Stratmangler
12-07-2009, 21:37
.
Alright Smartass.
Does it make you feel big to carry on the way that you do ?
It is very easy to be big and brave and "clever" anonymously.
I suggest you get yourself a decent therapist and stop coming out to play with normal people until you have sorted out your own personal issues.
Chris
Alright Smartass.
Does it make you feel big to carry on the way that you do ?
It is very easy to be big and brave and "clever" anonymously.
I suggest you get yourself a decent therapist and stop coming out to play with normal people until you have sorted out your own personal issues.
Chris
Here Here to that but I strongly believe that it could justifiably be stated in much much stronger language.:steam::steam::steam:
To lingling 1337: -
If you don't like the way people react to your postings, why post at all?
Move on and see if you can find somewhere else where your attitude would be more welcome!!
ZebuTheOxen
12-07-2009, 22:04
Sorry to sidetrack this rather abrasive gent's contributions, but hello!
I picked up the TC-7520 from Stan on thursday.
I took it home, got it running in while I was out for the rest of the day.
On friday evening I finally sat down to give it a good listen and was a little disheartened. The stock opamps really didn't tickle my fancy at all.
To put this into context, I've been using a PC-attached breakout box, while not able to properly drive my K701s it did manage to convey incredible timbre and with it the ability to pick out instruments easily. It had practically no bass, channel seperation or soundstage. Like listening to a very good oil painting.
The Stock TC-7520 re-introduced the bass wholesale to the mix. It was present, not too dominant and fairly well balanced, but the fidelity was lacking. There was some distortion initially on busy pieces of music (mostly rock) but that cleared up within 24 hours. I found it hard to get into the music as I had before, usually I would sink into my chair for an hour or so with a good album on. This did not happen.
I had ordered the 4652NA's before I had even picked up the unit, based on the findings earlier in this thread.
I popped them into the unit a few hours ago and was considerably happier with the sound.
The stage is wider, presence is improved, easier to pick out individual instruments, and the rhythm is perfect (to my ears). Listening to Cat Stevens - Oh Very Young is absolutely beautiful in terms of arrangement, detail and delivery of rhythm. Hairs standing up on the back of my neck. The detail of all the little things going on in the music are available - Someone humming along during the piano solo always makes me smile.
Edit: I thought it was just the recordings but I've noticed a real sense of veil or mono-tonality with the 4562's, hopefully this will disappear in time (Or my ears will learn to deal with it, whichever is sooner ;) )
I'll end this review by saying this is an absolutely brilliant piece of equipment with the 4652NA's installed, nothing comes close in terms of price / performance.
There is still a nagging doubt in my mind though. I miss the timbre of the first unit, and with it, the ability to really follow an instrument through the music.
Will installing a THS4032 opamp on the HPA circuit provide this? Are there alternatives?
Or should I save my monies and attempt the MCL5/6 mod?
To all those who have contributed to this thread, you've been an invaluable help and I look forward to what you come up with next. :)
Hi Zebu (may we shorten it to Zeb ?),:)
Welcome to the forum - nice first posting and a welcome cotribution to the subject of the thread. I'm sure others more knowledgeable than me will be along with their two penn'orth shortly. Meanwhile can I be the first to pass you the obligatory first request(s): -
1) please post an introduction in the Welcome area of the forum, preferably giving details of your first name (we like first names on this very friendly forum) - (there will always be exceptions to the friendly response if we feel that it isn't being reciprocated, as you have obviously already noted!);)
2) please include detais of your audio set up and your tastes in music - what do you like listening to?
3) if possible can you post pics of your set up in the gallery area? - we also like pics on this forum.:)
Again, welcome - may your stay be a long, friendly and fruitful one.
Cheers,
Welcome bovine one, good to see someone on this thread actually interested in 7520-modding rather than lingling-modding.
Everyone's ears and kit are different, but its certainly worth trying the 4032 as they're only about a tenner and easy enough to fit. For me they expanded the bass, banishing that same mono-tonality you've just added (assuming its just in the bass you have that problem) and maybe slightly added a little detail to the treble.
A few weeks ago Stan said it should soon be possible to buy a spare opamp board. I'm hoping that this will allow the soldering impaired amongst us to try the MLC5/MLC6 mod out without preventing a return to using the 4032, may be worth waiting for that before snipping anything unless you're comfortable soldering. (Can you confirm this Stan if you see this?)
But from what I've read so far, the MLC mod may well be the mod to go for for the sound you're seeking - though I've see very little discussion of the effect that has on the bass.
Hi Zebu, welcome to the madhouse! :)
I know what you mean by the 4562 veiled quality - the vocals were especially well projected and real sounding, but sounded quite "flat" spacially to these ears.
LOVED the 4562 but swapped for the 4032 becasue of this.
They bettered the 4562 in a lot of ways, but I missed the "tingle" of the 4562s.
Then I heard about the ML5/6 mod.
Stan said it was recommended and it sounded like it fixed the problems I was hearing with the 4562.
I took the plunge and done the mod.
NOW THATS BETTER! :)
All the goodness from before but WITHOUT the veiled quality.
Only proviso I's say is that theres a little less deep bass than the 4032, but whats there is good and is secondary to the increased air and life about the music.
Id try the 4032 first though before you go snipping the Caps, it might be what your looking for.
Also, the DAC takes a long time (IMHO) to fully come on song - for me a good 6/8 weeks until it finally settled down to its best.
Best Regards,
G.
Stratmangler
12-07-2009, 22:36
Hi ZebuTheOxen
Welcome to AoS - do the rest of us a favour and say hello in the entrance hall:)
I can't comment on the MCL5/6 thing as I have the TC-7510 (different beast), but the general consensus is that it is a worthwhile thing to do with the op-amps you have fitted.
The only suggestion I would make is play music through the thing for at least a week before you make any proper assessment of sound quality.
My TC-7510 took an age to settle down properly, both from new and each time I took a soldering iron to it (twice).
Enjoy your DAC and enjoy the forum - by and large we're a pretty good crew to get on with.
Chris:)
So aside from the opamp swapping, anyone have any bright ideas for bettering the analog output stage? The DAC swapping is all well and good to me, but really, the digital section isn't near as important as the analog portion.
Apart from swapping the op-amps and snipping the ceramic caps out across the fb resistors to higher bandwidth theres not a huge amount to do in the analogue stage, maybe try alternative caps for coupling.
If you want to try something adventurous why not build an alternative output stage on vero board, solder on SIL pins so it fits in the existing socket, simply unplug the existing riser board and plug in the new one
ZebuTheOxen
12-07-2009, 23:43
Thanks for the replies, all very helpful! I'll introduce myself a little better tomorrow morning, it's been a long weekend.
I looked at the previous posts regarding the THS4032 and people describe it as 'dynamic' and 'forward', which I'm not sure if that's what I'm looking for. Just to give you an example, on Johnny Cash - Help Me before I would really feel the resonance of his guitar, the pluck of the strings etc. while it's still there (and more) it feels a little buried or something. I can only describe it as a veil for the lack of a better word. Maybe it could be the presence of proper bass is bringing something else to the table, this may account for the flattened sound.
The only reason I mention this is because when I first got the K701s, guitars really grabbed me. I know it can sound that good, I just want it all! :lol:
I mostly listen to rock, or 'anything with guitars in' so I would definitely say it is a sound that I actively seek out.
Though despite what I've just said, I have been flicking through tracks and the percussion / rhythm with the 4652s is absolutely fantastic. Drums crash rather than splash, plus all the other goodness that comes with it. Truly stuff to gird your loins with ;)
Stan mentioned the MCL5/6 mod to me specifically when I picked up the unit, if someone else can confirm what Gazjam is saying, it's very likely that it'll be the sound I'm looking for :)
Looking at Leo's post above, the capacitors are in the analogue part of the circuit, so it would make sense that removing a bit of filtering could open up the treble. Fingers crossed!
One of the nice things about this dac is that the output stage is simple, Apart from snipping out ML5/6 , fitting metal can LM4562HA for the line out I'm quite happy to leave the rest of the line out as is
I have a few pairs of headphones including K701's (a mate is currently borrowing them), I know these cans give a lot of amps a hard time to drive, they can sound a little lazy with light bass, sort of stick hitting a cardboard box effect ;) soon as I get them back I'll try a few different op-amps and see how it performs
Oh, welcome to AOS btw:)
lingling1337
13-07-2009, 02:44
good to see someone on this thread actually interested in 7520-modding rather than lingling-modding.
Hah, that really tickled me for some reason.
Anyway, this MLC mod has me intrigued now. I might pick up a pair of 4562. How do those of you who have heard both compare the 4032 to the MLC modded 4562? Gaz?
EDIT: BTW, it would probably be helpful if we all specified what headphones we're using as that can really affect how we perceive different opamps etc. I'm on Grado SR225i.
Covenant
13-07-2009, 06:38
Hi Zebu-(please explain your cattle based name). Thought I would add my two pennies worth. The 4562 has some lovely qualities especially in the mid-range. Acoustic guitar for example is a delight. Its about as close to being there as is possible. The reason I changed to the 4032 was because of a problem with excessive one note bass. I use floor standing speakers in a small room and consider the 4562 amplified the problem. The 4032 solves this for me but some may describe the sound as clinical or etched.
The ML5/6 mod plus 4562 may be an alternative but up to now I havent had the courage to try it.
StanleyB
13-07-2009, 07:07
I am surprised about the bass complaint made with the LM4562. It sounds far deeper and with more musical content to me and a few who tried it against the DAC1 (NE5532) and the DacMagic (NE5534).
The K701 has a dead low end on most headphone amps. So when you use it with the TC-7520 the enhanced bass can appear to 'sink' the midrange.
For K701 users and anyone who enjoys a wider bass range via headphones you can try the THS4032, or alternatively swap over the 47nF caps ( those big yellow ones on the top PCB either side of the headphone amp opamp, for a 100nF. I have instead soldered a 33nF cap in parallel with the 47nF from underneath the PCB so that I didn't need to desolder the 47nF. But that's for use with the K701. The added bass might sound a bit too much on the HD650 and other headphones that already have a fair amount of bass.
I added a modification page on my website at www.beresford.me that shows a number of the pictures taken by various AoS modders. I put some text with them as well. I hope to add and improve on that page over time. I hope it is helpful for a lot of people who don't know where to look for the various info.
Any useful suggestions on how to improve on that?
Stan
Have to say Stan that the website mod page for the 7520 is absolutely tops!
Are you planning a TC7510 one when you find a bit of spare time (what's that!).
Regards
Chris
StanleyB
13-07-2009, 09:57
Have to say Stan that the website mod page for the 7520 is absolutely tops!
Are you planning a TC7510 one when you find a bit of spare time (what's that!).
Regards
Chris
I am looking for TC-7510 pics to post if anyone got any that I can have. Just email them to me at AoSPics@homehifi.co.uk. I'll worry about editing them etc.
I'll add some extra mods etc for the TC-7510. I just need to find where my TC-7510 with WM8716 is hiding. That mod needs two extra bits of wire links added, which is why I haven't made it available in general. I just can't remember where the links go either:doh:.
STan
Covenant
13-07-2009, 11:16
I am surprised about the bass complaint made with the LM4562. It sounds far deeper and with more musical content to me and a few who tried it against the DAC1 (NE5532) and the DacMagic (NE5534).
The K701 has a dead low end on most headphone amps. So when you use it with the TC-7520 the enhanced bass can appear to 'sink' the midrange.
For K701 users and anyone who enjoys a wider bass range via headphones you can try the THS4032, or alternatively swap over the 47nF caps ( those big yellow ones on the top PCB either side of the headphone amp opamp, for a 100nF. I have instead soldered a 33nF cap in parallel with the 47nF from underneath the PCB so that I didn't need to desolder the 47nF. But that's for use with the K701. The added bass might sound a bit too much on the HD650 and other headphones that already have a fair amount of bass.
I added a modification page on my website at www.beresford.me that shows a number of the pictures taken by various AoS modders. I put some text with them as well. I hope to add and improve on that page over time. I hope it is helpful for a lot of people who don't know where to look for the various info.
Any useful suggestions on how to improve on that?
Stan
Agreed that its deeper but, to me, it sounded 'lazy'-like the bass notes were hanging around a bit longer than they should. Very probably this is caused by my system/room and wont be a problem for most people.
StanleyB
13-07-2009, 12:44
Agreed that its deeper but, to me, it sounded 'lazy'-like the bass notes were hanging around a bit longer than they should. Very probably this is caused by my system/room and wont be a problem for most people.
:doh:. It's the decay of the signal that you are hearing. People pay a fortune just to get their equipment to produce that level of accuracy.
Stan
Covenant
13-07-2009, 13:25
This is an interesting point you raise Stan and one I have thought about a bit.
Exactly how long should the decay last? I know you are going to say however much is there but sometimes it leads to the following notes being obscured-drowning in bass if you like. After a while it can become tiring so personally I prefer a somewhat sharper sound.
This becomes worse when you are listening to floorstanders close up in a small room.
Dont ask me to change my speakers because I love them!
Hah, that really tickled me for some reason.
Anyway, this MLC mod has me intrigued now. I might pick up a pair of 4562. How do those of you who have heard both compare the 4032 to the MLC modded 4562? Gaz?
EDIT: BTW, it would probably be helpful if we all specified what headphones we're using as that can really affect how we perceive different opamps etc. I'm on Grado SR225i.
Hey Lingling, :)
See my post #931 for this.
Gaz.
Agreed that its deeper but, to me, it sounded 'lazy'-like the bass notes were hanging around a bit longer than they should. Very probably this is caused by my system/room and wont be a problem for most people.
Jerry,
I experienced this too, but I found it goes away with the MCL5/6 mod.
More clarity across the board, just a WEE bit less deep bass.
I am surprised about the bass complaint made with the LM4562. It sounds far deeper and with more musical content to me and a few who tried it against the DAC1 (NE5532) and the DacMagic (NE5534).
The K701 has a dead low end on most headphone amps. So when you use it with the TC-7520 the enhanced bass can appear to 'sink' the midrange.
For K701 users and anyone who enjoys a wider bass range via headphones you can try the THS4032, or alternatively swap over the 47nF caps ( those big yellow ones on the top PCB either side of the headphone amp opamp, for a 100nF. I have instead soldered a 33nF cap in parallel with the 47nF from underneath the PCB so that I didn't need to desolder the 47nF. But that's for use with the K701. The added bass might sound a bit too much on the HD650 and other headphones that already have a fair amount of bass.
I added a modification page on my website at www.beresford.me that shows a number of the pictures taken by various AoS modders. I put some text with them as well. I hope to add and improve on that page over time. I hope it is helpful for a lot of people who don't know where to look for the various info.
Any useful suggestions on how to improve on that?
Stan
Looking good, it just needs the text 100nf changing to 100pf for MLC5 & MLC6
Also I think some noted problems if using THS4032 in both line out and HA positions where as it was ok if used in one side only
Covenant
13-07-2009, 14:56
Jerry,
I experienced this too, but I found it goes away with the MCL5/6 mod.
More clarity across the board, just a WEE bit less deep bass.
Thanks Gaz,
Well it looks like I am going to have to try this mod. I think I have a rusty old pair of pliers where I keep the car jack and other tools. So after I have ripped out these bits do I need to solder a bit of wire in their place? Thats what I do when the fuse blows.
Only joking I'll be careful :lol:
Hi Zebu-(please explain your cattle based name). Thought I would add my two pennies worth. The 4562 has some lovely qualities especially in the mid-range. Acoustic guitar for example is a delight. Its about as close to being there as is possible. The reason I changed to the 4032 was because of a problem with excessive one note bass. I use floor standing speakers in a small room and consider the 4562 amplified the problem. The 4032 solves this for me but some may describe the sound as clinical or etched.
The ML5/6 mod plus 4562 may be an alternative but up to now I havent had the courage to try it.
Covenant,
I think my stereo setup is similar to yours. I have floor standing speakers with spiked feet. They are the Cambridge Soundworks Tower IIs with dual 8" inch woofers and a bass port in the back. They produce a strong bass down to 30 Hz. My stereo room is small, about 11 feet by 12.
My observation with the stock opamps in the 7520 were very nice, and no complaints of the bass. I went straight to the LM4562NA with the ML5/ML6 mods and found that the quality improved immensely, it was nearly perfect.
My observations match Gazjamz in that with the LM4562 in the line-out driving my system, the low bass is just very slightly dialed back. the LM4562s go deep, they just don't go strong as before. My feet want to tap energetically to the music but feel there's something missing down low. From 50 Hz up, though, the LM4562 with ML5/ML6 is pretty much perfect, and if not for the bass, my 7520 modding would have been done.
Also, I just wanted to add that I was one of the 1st buyers of the 7520, so it came with that other PSU. When Stan sent me the upgraded PSU, the sound improved considerably, especially with the bass. These PSU observations were all with the original opamp.
I wonder then, if the Caiman PSU will improve things with the LM4562 and ML5/6 mods. We'll just have to wait and see:)
CD
Thanks Gaz,
Well it looks like I am going to have to try this mod. I think I have a rusty old pair of pliers where I keep the car jack and other tools. So after I have ripped out these bits do I need to solder a bit of wire in their place? Thats what I do when the fuse blows.
Only joking I'll be careful :lol:
I used a breadknife....
StanleyB
13-07-2009, 16:54
I wonder then, if the Caiman PSU will improve things with the LM4562 and ML5/6 mods. We'll just have to wait and see:)
:doh: Jeez, and I was trying to keep that a secret till the time is nigh. You guys can predict the future:scratch:.
Stan
Looking good, it just needs the text 100nf changing to 100pf for MLC5 & MLC6
Also I think some noted problems if using THS4032 in both line out and HA positions where as it was ok if used in one side only
I was one who had this issue. With two 4032s, the HPA was distorted (and crackly?... can't remember, as it was two months ago and I took it out right away). So I went with 4032 on line out, 4562 on HPA.
Wanted to add that someone reported no problem with 2, and so I note that my Sennheiser 595s are only 50 Ohms, and that might be the culprit.
Am I seeing that the preference for line out is now back to 4562 with the caps cut instead of the 4032s. I've been happy, but I could switch and cut!!
Covenant
13-07-2009, 18:19
Have you tried the 4562 in the line out circuit Doug? Just try swapping to see if you like what it does. You can always do the ML5/6 mod at a later date once you have established that it works for you.
ZebuTheOxen
13-07-2009, 23:23
I went ahead and ordered a 4032. Wasn't sure about getting 1 or 2, but the gent on the previous page had a bad experience with 2 x 4032.
Hopefully it'll bring out what I know the amp is capable of :)
Stan,
I'm just wondering if the caiman psu will become the standard psu for the 7520 or will it become an extra option that will cost more money.
Hmm sorry for my noobyness here, i just read up on the new/upgraded 7520 power supply thread and it seems like you commented that due to the 7520 design the psu would not make a change to the sound but it seems like you also give the impression that caiman psu did improve the 7520. I'm a bit confused now.
Have you tried the 4562 in the line out circuit Doug? Just try swapping to see if you like what it does. You can always do the ML5/6 mod at a later date once you have established that it works for you.
Yep...started with two 4562s as my first mod(big improvement over stock opamps). Then (I thought) folks felt the 4032 better.. and indeed I preferred it a bit over the 4562 in the line out (and had the mentioned trouble with two of them.)
Noticing that now some say 4562 PLUS cut caps is better, but not sure I want to mess.
Can anyone direct me to a post describing the improvements seen with the Caiman mods. I'm considering getting it. Thanks!!
StanleyB
14-07-2009, 06:23
Stan,
I'm just wondering if the caiman psu will become the standard psu for the 7520 or will it become an extra option that will cost more money.
Hmm sorry for my noobyness here, i just read up on the new/upgraded 7520 power supply thread and it seems like you commented that due to the 7520 design the psu would not make a change to the sound but it seems like you also give the impression that caiman psu did improve the 7520. I'm a bit confused now.
The Caiman PSU appears to offer a change of sound with the standard TC-7520 on the systems we have tested it on. However, it is not a uniform decision amongst my beta testers if it is a good or bad change. So I am not sure at this moment if I would recommend the Caiman PSU to every standard TC-7520 user. I would have to conduct some wider trials to get a more meaningful consensus.
What we have noticed that is more encouraging is that it offers a pleasant change with the LM4562/MLC5/MLC6 mods. However, it does not look so good on the scope with the THS4032 as far as stability of the signal is concerned. Maybe Leo might be able to offer us some insight in this.
Since these tests and trials are work in progress, I wouldn't say that you should take anything for granted. Once I can conduct a bigger trail when I have some legally approved samples of the PSU to send out there would be more hard and concrete technical information available from those running the trails. Depending on the results, I might offer a mod option for the technically challenged whereby those people send me their TC-7520 and I do the opamp and caps mods and include the Caiman PSU when returning the DAC to them. Again, this is just an idea. The Caiman PSU is not yet ready for production. There are delays being experienced. It is awaiting CE and VDU approval before the factory can even book me a slot to do a limited production run.
What should be realized is that I am trying to create improvements with a PSU design costing less than £30, when similar improvements can only be accomplished by other DAC and headphone manufacturers with their PSU costing £100 and upwards. So bear with me. It ain't easy to create a DAC/PSU combination for less than £300 that can hold its own against £10K CD players and £3K DACs.
That remnds me that I need a few more beta testers who have CD players costing at least £2K or DACs costing at least £1K who would be willing to do some testing against their set up if and when I need their help.
Stan
Yep...started with two 4562s as my first mod(big improvement over stock opamps). Then (I thought) folks felt the 4032 better.. and indeed I preferred it a bit over the 4562 in the line out (and had the mentioned trouble with two of them.)
Noticing that now some say 4562 PLUS cut caps is better, but not sure I want to mess.
Can anyone direct me to a post describing the improvements seen with the Caiman mods. I'm considering getting it. Thanks!!
An intersting observation, now I've had the ML5/6 mod done for some time now...
the sounds changing.
Theres a "hear through" clarity I didn't have before. Straight after doing the mod (last week) there was an immediate imporovement with a better sense of "air" around instruments and everything sounded more alive, but from last night the sense of space front to back has increased very noticably. The soundstage too seems to hang together better as a whole, not a collection of individual elements (if that makes sense?)
The more cohesive soundstage was the advantage I found the 4032 to have over the 4652 but as I said before, the 4032 lacked the "spark" the 4562 had.
Oh, and the issue of lacking bass?
Not at all.
Its all there but through the 4562/ML5,6 mod its very much tighter.
If its not sub bass it wont sound like it.
I think its a product of the Dac having such high resolution and clarity now - a layer of mush has been stripped away.
Played Dark Side of the Moon and theres a deep pulsing bass at the start and if anything, the bass was DEEPER than before. I was getting thumped in the chest in a way I wasn't before.
To these ears this is the best Opamp setup I've heard and the best my systems ever sounded.
HighFidelityGuy
14-07-2009, 13:05
Ahhhh I can't handle the suspense any longer. I was going to wait a while before I tried the 4562+MLC5/6 mod as I'm happy with the 4032 but after Gazjam's last post I've got to try this sooner. I'll be using the metal can 4562 though. I'll hopefully try this tonight.
Oops. Sorry! :)
The metal can one is supposed to be even better, think thats my next step.
Wonder how much of an improvement there is over the standard one...Leo?
ZebuTheOxen
14-07-2009, 13:10
How would one go about repairing the capacitor legs once cut?
Stratmangler
14-07-2009, 13:27
How would one go about repairing the capacitor legs once cut?
Just cut one leg and lift the cap away without removing it. If you want to put the cap back in circuit then a blob of solder on the cut should suffice.
Not ideal, but a damned sight easier than removing the circuit board and desoldering the joint, replacing the cap etc.
Chris:)
Oops. Sorry! :)
The metal can one is supposed to be even better, think thats my next step.
Wonder how much of an improvement there is over the standard one...Leo?
Maybe the metal version won't react as well with the cap mod??? Seems hard to guess these things. But on behalf of the rest of us, give it a go!! (and thanks!)
Will do. :)
The metal caps a fair bit more expensive which hopefully suggest something better.
HAd a search thru the thread, not many references to the differences between 4562 std and the metal cap one.
StanleyB
14-07-2009, 15:27
The metal version works fine with the cap mod.
My take on the reason why the THS4032 is so temperamental is because it is a surface mount device and just hates being in a socket. Those adapter pins might be acting as aerials at high RF. Maybe the THS4032 requires desoldering of the existing socket and then solder the THS4032 on its adapter board directly onto the top PCB.
If anyone has a pair of THS4032 and adapter boards to spare I can experiment and publish my findings. I have used up my samples on a different project:eyebrows:.
Stan
I've one of the Tirna 4032's lying spare, any use Stan?
For me at least I'd definitely say metal can LM4562HA is a better performer than the plastic dip8 NA version
Its not a huge difference and tbh I cannot say everybody would agree the increase in performance is worth the extra expense, best way of describing it is that theres a bit more there with the HA, sounds a bit more polished
Only reason I can think of what causes this is if the thermal matching internally is better with the metal can, maybe its also slighter tighter on the specs
Removing those 100pf ceramics is a real must with the LM4562NA or HA op-amp (and works great with a few other types of op-amp too)
With the caps removed the THS4032 didn't burst into immediate oscillation (for me anyway) it was with higher frequencies (16k+) with the caps removed which made it slightly touchy , LM4562 gave a solid sinewave , THS4032 would behave from cold and go into occasional ringing after a minute or two higher up the range but not bad
I can't measure music but it would probably behave with normal signals?
Also thing to note is that having the ceramic cap DIRECTLY onto the THS4032 pins (not its socket pins) does help
I think without the socket found on the 7520 riser board may prevent any ringing at all
Anyway, heres a few signals with those caps removed
Also note I have WM8716 fitted
1k Square wave 0db LM4562 minus MLC5/6, pre and post ringing is usual, it varies depending on the type of OS chip used
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/22288812/369523439.jpg
1k Square wave 0db THS4032 minus MLC5/6
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/22288812/369523431.jpg
16HZ Sinewave 0db LM4562
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/22288812/369523475.jpg
50HZ Sine wave 0db LM4562
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/22288812/369523465.jpg
500HZ Sine wave 0db LM4562
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/22288812/369523468.jpg
2K Sine wave 0db LM4562
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/22288812/369523453.jpg
20k Sine wave 0db LM4562
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/22288812/369523446.jpg
StanleyB
14-07-2009, 15:58
I've one of the Tirna 4032's lying spare, any use Stan?
Of course it would. Just send it over.
If anyone else has one more to donate in kind, let me know. I could even test them in the Caiman.
Stan
StanleyB
14-07-2009, 16:04
It's interesting to note the DAC's performance at 16Hz Leo. I wonder how many other DACs have such an even response below 50Hz. The waveform measurement goes to at least debunk any claims of lack of LF bass. No drop off to be seen there.
Stan
It's interesting to note the DAC's performance at 16Hz Leo. I wonder how many other DACs have such an even response below 50Hz. The waveform measurement goes to at least debunk any claims of lack of LF bass. No drop off to be seen there.
Stan
Not bad eh:)
I've had a few dacs here which give nice spirograph effects higher than 16k;) 7520 using WM8716 remains spot on!
Cameras fault for not showing full 16hz, you can see though no rolling off at all
ZebuTheOxen
14-07-2009, 16:20
Please don't start talking about the WM8716, I'm already way too tempted to fiddle with the components as it is. :lolsign:
Just cut one leg and lift the cap away without removing it. If you want to put the cap back in circuit then a blob of solder on the cut should suffice.
Not ideal, but a damned sight easier than removing the circuit board and desoldering the joint, replacing the cap etc.
Chris:)
Unfortunately just missing out a couple of steps for some of us:
1) Buy a soldering iron & solder
2) Work out how to use it
3) Practice before risking it on the DAC
Dave & Jerry, I eagerly await your reports back if you do the snip - before doing something that's so difficult to undo I need as much input as possible!
Covenant
14-07-2009, 17:39
Sorry Spod,
You will have to wait until the week-end for my report as I have driven 280 miles today and have just sat down to start work. Another 300 miles tomorrow.:violin:
HighFidelityGuy
14-07-2009, 18:41
I called into a hardware store on the way home and bought some mini cutters. I then set about the MLC5/6 mod and swapped my 4032 for a LME49720HA. This opamp is the new version of the LM4562HA. It has the same specs, just a new name.
I listened to a couple of tracks before and after and there's definitely a difference in characteristics. I now have a slightly bigger and more 3D soundstage. The bass has also got more pronounced and punchy. The latter is actually a bit of a down side for me as I was already having issues with boomy bass. I'm struggling to hear any other differences but I think that's because the bass is muddling everything else.
I already have plans to tame the bass including room treatment and eq, so I think that will improve the situation.
I think I'll leave the 49720HA in place for now as I can't be arsed to solder the caps back in again and I want to see if the sound improves after the changes have been in place for a few days.
So my results weren't quite as positive as some other peoples but still good.
Hi Stan
I have 2 tirna 4032's going spare if you would like them, shall I just post to you.
Nick
StanleyB
14-07-2009, 19:02
The circuitry change needs time to burn in, so a few hours won't tell you much.
Also note that if you look at the waveform measurements that Leo published earlier today the frequency response on the DAC with the LM4562 is a straight line from 10Hz to 20KHz. The extra bass you hear is your system finally coming to life. Go to the next room in your house to listen to a good track and you'll hear details through the walls that you very likely never heard before from that location.
Stan
StanleyB
14-07-2009, 19:04
Hi Stan
I have 2 tirna 4032's going spare if you would like them, shall I just post to you.
Nick
Hi Nick, that would be great. I'll remember that when the Caiman PSU shows up;).
Stan
I've one of the Tirna 4032's lying spare, any use Stan?
Hi Gary,
Do please tell me that the above is NOT the one you said you'd send me? :(
If it is, if you can tell me where I can buy another one from, I'm quite willing to defer to Stan. :)
Cheers,
Dave.
Covenant
14-07-2009, 21:07
I called into a hardware store on the way home and bought some mini cutters. I then set about the MLC5/6 mod and swapped my 4032 for a LME49720HA. This opamp is the new version of the LM4562HA. It has the same specs, just a new name.
I listened to a couple of tracks before and after and there's definitely a difference in characteristics. I now have a slightly bigger and more 3D soundstage. The bass has also got more pronounced and punchy. The latter is actually a bit of a down side for me as I was already having issues with boomy bass. I'm struggling to hear any other differences but I think that's because the bass is muddling everything else.
I already have plans to tame the bass including room treatment and eq, so I think that will improve the situation.
I think I'll leave the 49720HA in place for now as I can't be arsed to solder the caps back in again and I want to see if the sound improves after the changes have been in place for a few days.
So my results weren't quite as positive as some other peoples but still good.
Sorry to use you as a guinea pig Dave but it seems you experienced the same problems as me. Before I get busy with the toe nail clippers at the week end could you report if there is any improvement when its bedded in?
lingling1337
15-07-2009, 00:17
I'd also like to know more results coming from THS4032 to LM4562 w/MLC5/6 mod. Is the 4562 more natural than the 4032? I quite like my 4032 for vinyl rips, it sounds amazing. However, it's too bright a chip for my general recording, and I think the fact that I'm using Grados (a 32ohm phone) is a factor here too.
EDIT2: OK so LME49720NA vs LM4562NA? Looking at the free samples, want to try some out.
EDIT2: OK so LME49720NA vs LM4562NA? Looking at the free samples, want to try some out.
Does this mean what I suspect it means, based on previous posts by this 'gentleman'?? SHEEEESH!!! :steam:
HighFidelityGuy
15-07-2009, 12:06
Sorry to use you as a guinea pig Dave but it seems you experienced the same problems as me. Before I get busy with the toe nail clippers at the week end could you report if there is any improvement when its bedded in?
I'd also like to know more results coming from THS4032 to LM4562 w/MLC5/6 mod. Is the 4562 more natural than the 4032? I quite like my 4032 for vinyl rips, it sounds amazing. However, it's too bright a chip for my general recording, and I think the fact that I'm using Grados (a 32ohm phone) is a factor here too.
EDIT2: OK so LME49720NA vs LM4562NA? Looking at the free samples, want to try some out.
No problem, I'll report back with how it's sounding after I've done a couple more days of running in.
StanleyB
15-07-2009, 12:50
Can we bring back some sense to these mods? There are PCM1716, WM8716, 12V and 15V PSU folks all doing various opamps tests. The two DAC chips sound different from each other, as do the power supplies. I suggest therefore that anyone doing their tests on anything other than the standard PCM1716and 12V PSU, should mention it.
Stan
HighFidelityGuy
15-07-2009, 14:45
Good point Stan. For clarification my 7520 is standard other than the opamp and MLC5/6 mod.
lingling1337
15-07-2009, 15:13
Does this mean what I suspect it means, based on previous posts by this 'gentleman'?? SHEEEESH!!! :steam:
What do you think it means?
EDIT: Removed snarky comment and other edits for genuine interest in what mr DaveC thinks I'm talking about.
HighFidelityGuy
15-07-2009, 15:27
EDIT: BTW, found out that the 49720 and 4562 are the exact same thing :doh:
I've mentioned that a couple of times here already. ;)
HighFidelityGuy
15-07-2009, 21:26
Hi Stan,
I'm thinking about swapping the standard KIA7810API regulator for a Murata 7805SR which you mentioned a while ago. I just wanted to check if this was a simple drop in replacement or if I would need to make any other modifications?
The Murata datasheet mentions that no external capacitors are required and I notice there are a couple of caps near the existing regulator (MLC1 & EC2), so that made me wonder if anything needed changing to make the 7805SR work at it's best.
Thanks.
lingling1337
15-07-2009, 21:31
Hi Stan,
I'm thinking about swapping the standard KIA7810API regulator for a Murata 7805SR which you mentioned a while ago. I just wanted to check if this was a simple drop in replacement or if I would need to make any other modifications?
The Murata datasheet mentions that no external capacitors are required and I notice there are a couple of caps near the existing regulator (MLC1 & EC2), so that made me wonder if anything needed changing to make the 7805SR work at it's best.
Thanks.
Really looking forward to this one.
Hi Stan,
I'm thinking about swapping the standard KIA7810API regulator for a Murata 7805SR which you mentioned a while ago. I just wanted to check if this was a simple drop in replacement or if I would need to make any other modifications?
The Murata datasheet mentions that no external capacitors are required and I notice there are a couple of caps near the existing regulator (MLC1 & EC2), so that made me wonder if anything needed changing to make the 7805SR work at it's best.
Thanks.
It maybe worth leaving the external caps, the datasheet for the 7805SR mentions using an additional cap on the output will improve load-transient response and if a low ESR type is used will improve filtering.
The reg isn't located more than 24inch from the DC source so an additional cap on the input shouldn't be essential
lingling1337
16-07-2009, 03:54
HighFidelityGuy, since I can't be bothered to pop open my DAC and find out, is the regulator a through-hole job or surface mount?
EDIT: Just did a google, looks to be through-hole. Looking forward to Stan's thoughts on this. I'll pick up a Radial 15V power supply and a 7805SR-C if there are no additional thoughts Stan has to add.
StanleyB
16-07-2009, 06:43
It would be helpful if you knew what you are considering doing, and whether you have your facts correct.
As a guide:
Murata Power Solutions’ 7805SR-C (5V output), 7812SR-C (12V output).
Consult the Murata datasheet and make sure you know your 5V regulator from your 12V regulator. The 7812SR-C will not work below a 15V input level. So you would have to be in Caiman territory if you want to do this mod and spend that sort of money.
A cheaper solution might have been the Leo mod, but I think he has put that aside due to the complexity of it and the certain electronics skill required. Any slip ups and it's good bye TC-7520.
Stan
HighFidelityGuy
16-07-2009, 09:04
It would be helpful if you knew what you are considering doing, and whether you have your facts correct.
As a guide:
Murata Power Solutions’ 7805SR-C (5V output), 7812SR-C (12V output).
Consult the Murata datasheet and make sure you know your 5V regulator from your 12V regulator. The 7812SR-C will not work below a 15V input level. So you would have to be in Caiman territory if you want to do this mod and spend that sort of money.
A cheaper solution might have been the Leo mod, but I think he has put that aside due to the complexity of it and the certain electronics skill required. Any slip ups and it's good bye TC-7520.
Stan
Ahhh damit, I wrote the wrong one, I didn't mean to say KIA7810API, I meant the existing 7805. Sorry about that, I had them both written on the same bit of paper and mixed them up when I wrote the post, I was tired. :doh:
So I'm interested in swapping the existing 7805 reg for a Murata 7805SR-C.
So will any modifications be required for this?
The reason I chose this reg to swap first was because swapping the other one looked more complicated due to the differing input voltage requirements.
Thanks.
StanleyB
16-07-2009, 10:33
So I'm interested in swapping the existing 7805 reg for a Murata 7805SR-C.
So will any modifications be required for this?
I'll repeat: read the Murata datasheet:doh:. It is their mod, not mine. But you are free to send me a sample to try out and see if it works OK.
Stan
HighFidelityGuy
16-07-2009, 10:50
Sorry Stan, I thought you new all about the Murata seen as you mentioned it. I guess you just knew it looked like a good possible replacement but not necessarily a drop in replacement, I understand now. I'll do some more more research. :)
Cheers.
lingling1337
16-07-2009, 14:09
It would be helpful if you knew what you are considering doing, and whether you have your facts correct.
Stan
Your pissy attitude goes unnoticed here. How strange.
StanleyB
16-07-2009, 15:13
Your pissy attitude goes unnoticed here. How strange.
If you got a problem with AoS and me, why do you hang around here??
Your pissy attitude goes unnoticed here. How strange.
But your's most certainly doesn't -- P..S off why don't you and put a smile on all our faces.
lingling1337
16-07-2009, 15:42
If you got a problem with AoS and me, why do you hang around here??
No problems, just an observation.
Stratmangler
16-07-2009, 15:55
No problems, just an observation.
Pot - Kettle - Black ??????
I can see that you are someone whose grasp of English is such that it reinforces the old saying about Britain and the USA are two nations divided by a common language.
And your manners leave a huge amount to be desired.
Look at yourself before you post any "helpful" observations about other people.
Chris
Can we keep this as a productive discussion without resorting to insults please:scratch:
Can we keep this as a productive discussion without resorting to insults please:scratch:
Apart from generating a huge amount of hot air on his side of the pond and a lot of steam on this side, please advise how 'productive' lingling ding-a-ling has been :scratch:
Cheers,
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