View Full Version : Mod your Beresford 7520
apmusson
05-04-2009, 12:33
Think I might give the 4032's a go now that we seem to have found the eBay supplier that will do all the prep work. I have found the 49720's just take a bit of the feeling out of the sound - this could be because the bass is a little loose and is overshadowing the uppers and the mid's. Some albums/tracks though sound much better with the 49720's - just depends on the recording/music genre.
I assume your talking about Tirna electronics. They supplied me with 2 lots of boards, chips and caps all presoldered and ready to install. Total cost inc shipping was £19.70 and they arrived 2 days after ordering.
mwahahaha
05-04-2009, 12:40
I assume your talking about Tirna electronics. They supplied me with 2 lots of boards, chips and caps all presoldered and ready to install. Total cost inc shipping was £19.70 and they arrived 2 days after ordering.
Excellent! that sounds great - another eBay seller enjoying the AOS/Beresford effect:)
And they are excellent folk to deal with too.
mwahahaha
05-04-2009, 12:42
Can anyone think of a problem with mixing the opamps? I don't use phones so am not really bothered about paying to upgrade the headamp section.
Covenant
05-04-2009, 13:30
I am the same-only going to change one op-amp. I think Stan himself stated a preference for two different op-amps in his own 7520.
Can anyone think of a problem with mixing the opamps? I don't use phones so am not really bothered about paying to upgrade the headamp section.
No problem here - I'm a headphone user (exclusively) and I'm more than happy with the combination of LM4562NA (plastic) in the left hand socket and THS4032 in the right hand socket.
I've been looking through the spec sheets (as you do) and wondered if anyone has tried, or has any experience of the AD826 and/or the AD823. They seem to get pretty good reports and are available for a decent price.
Ken
As a fully paid up member of the electronically challenged club, I held my breath when swapping out the NE5532s for two LM4562NA op amps.
It was a bit fiddly with those caps so close to the socket, and I clumsily managed to bend pins on one of the extracted NE5532s. But the new op amps are safely in and running since yesterday.
And the result is ... it's only a few hours later but listening on my Senn HD595s there's definitely a bit more going on. I'd say there was greater clarity in the bass, everything is v.well defined and very musical.
Just had a bit of a baroque fest (Vivaldi, Bach, Handel and Telemann) topped off with a little Mozart and Beethoven. Audio reproduction is very convincing, and getting a good sense of a recording's and broadcast's overall acoustic.
When I can stretch to a pair of K701s, then the 4032 beckons, and IJust noticed that Tirna Electornics have added a "Beresford DAC" specific item to Ebay for a "THS4032CD Dual Op Amp Beresford DAC Upgrade 8 PIN DIL" @ £8.92 plus post. It could'nt be easier.
mwahahaha
05-04-2009, 17:10
one less for sale now;)
Just noticed that Tirna Electornics have added a "Beresford DAC" specific item to Ebay for a "THS4032CD Dual Op Amp Beresford DAC Upgrade 8 PIN DIL" @ £8.92 plus post. It could'nt be easier.
Nice find.
one less for sale now
And other one gone :)
StanleyB
05-04-2009, 17:25
It's nice to see that in these difficult times I am able to help in my own way towards encouraging people to do their own upgrade instead of them having to send it off off to someone else for an expensive minor tweak. At the same time I am also helping other small businesses to get a bit of income from the sale of spares:).
STan
is the CD still the metal cover?? Edit.. got confused. This is the latest greatest, but not the metal version of the 4562s, right.
HighFidelityGuy
05-04-2009, 17:42
Tirna Electornics have added a "Beresford DAC" specific item to Ebay for a "THS4032CD Dual Op Amp Beresford DAC Upgrade 8 PIN DIL" @ £8.92 plus post. It could'nt be easier.
I've just ordered a pair from them too. I've already order some adapter boards so I could solder them my self but getting someone else to do it is much simpler. :eyebrows: Does anyone want to buy 6 adapter boards? :doh:
Covenant
05-04-2009, 18:53
And I have bought one too!:)
HighFidelityGuy
06-04-2009, 15:10
Another "mod" that I'm interested in getting some info on is running the 7520 off a battery.
I've read about using sealed lead acid (SLA) batteries to power other equipment. Is this something that can achieve better sonic results than using a mains PSU with the 7520?
Covenant
06-04-2009, 15:51
I tried it with the 7510 and didn't notice any improvement. Mind you it wasn't an expensive battery-one from a childs electric scooter.
Personally I wouldnt spend a lot because the improvement is likely to be minimal.
I think I'd wait for Stans new PSU first.
For any other fellow novices out there, I can confirm that someone with the electronics engineering knowledge of a peanut can install an LM4562NA into the line-out socket in just a few minutes. Just have a working brain when you try to de-static-ify yourself (next time I use a cold water pipe, not the one feeding into the radiator).
(Not impressed with the bass yet but its only had a couple of hours run in, seems a bit unexcited and at times mono-tonal so far, while if anything the soundstage seems slightly more compact than before.
However, female vocals are an absolute revelation, wasn't at all impressed with that aspect of the dac before but now they're smoother and much more realistic, a noticeable improvement the instant you switch on.)
ReachtheSky
06-04-2009, 22:50
Another alternative option to experimenting with battery power may be the Eaton 9-series UPS as described by Osku below, from thread #10, “Beresford TC7520 upgrades” on Digital Impressions?
I’ve copied it across, below:
Originally Posted by Dougr33
Pretty sure he means that the electrical current in his neighborhood is dirty/noisy during the day (when lots of use, perhaps even industrial facilities, makes the current less stable at voltage or frequency). So it should be quieter at night, probably resulting in somewhat nicer/quieter audio.
If that is the case, then I would suggest him to buy a Eaton 9-series UPS to be used in between. 9-series UPS devices from Eaton (previously Powerware) transform AC (220-250V) to DC (60V) and then build perfect AC of your choosing (208, 220, 230, 240V). That is the best quality power there is available that I know of, and does not even cost that much (ok, it takes about 100W of power when in use). Those are used mostly in hospitals and mission critical computer systems (main servers, cash registers at shopping malls etc.). And one can also disturb the neighbors by playing loud music during an electrical break with the help of those UPS-batteries.
http://www.powerware.com/EMEA/359.asp
I have never understood those that buy or build expensive power cords since with about same cost you can have a device that creates perfect power that can be measured to have a perfect sine wave form even at load.
(I do not use such, we have just a Powerware 5110 1000VA for our computers).
ReachtheSky
06-04-2009, 22:57
I’m not sure exactly what is required in a good power source, but the Eaton 9-series UPS appears to tick a lot of boxes. Certainly claims to clean up dirty and erratic power source.
I’d appreciate clarification on what one hopes to obtain from the ultimate power source/ power supply?
ReachtheSky
07-04-2009, 02:18
I've just managed to get a cost indication on some of these Eaton 9-series UPS unit here in Australia. 9-series starting at ~A$1500 and 5-series starting at ~A$1100.
I wonder if they make tea and cofee also!
StanleyB
07-04-2009, 06:06
Maybe they make good snake oil extractors?
HighFidelityGuy
07-04-2009, 08:27
For running something like the 7520 that only requires a low current DC voltage, I would have thought it would be possible to get a better sound from using batteries as the power source. Using a UPS or similar device that cleans up the mains supply adds lots of extra stages before you get your clean DC. You go from AC to DC to AC and back to DC. Why not just start and end with DC? This is not so practical for running amps etc, but seems like a sensible approach for equipment that is usually DC powered anyway.
Stan, have you ever tried this and what are your thoughts on battery power for the 7520?
StanleyB
07-04-2009, 09:02
Current battery solutions are far too complicated for me in terms of customer's interaction etc.
I seem to remember, on another forum, that someone was using a battery with a solar charger, sourced from Maplins, to run a Beresford.
StanleyB
07-04-2009, 09:20
That same fellow has had to sell all of his equipment, is going through a divorce, and no longer lives in the property. So be careful...
..........................there's a moral behind that somewhere I'm sure.
HighFidelityGuy
07-04-2009, 09:28
Current battery solutions are far too complicated for me in terms of customer's interaction etc.
I assume you mean the battery maintenance/charging part? If that's the case then that's not an issue for me. I have a way of charging the batteries while the Hi-Fi isn't in use and automatically disconnecting the charger when it is in use etc. So there would be very little interaction required.
All this is academic though if a battery supply is no better than a decent linear PSU. That's all I'm trying to establish initially.
HighFidelityGuy
07-04-2009, 09:31
That same fellow has had to sell all of his equipment, is going through a divorce, and no longer lives in the property. So be careful...
Ok, now I'm confused. :scratch:
StanleyB
07-04-2009, 09:38
Ok, now I'm confused. :scratch:
Maybe his wife didn't like all the wiring?
I am working on a battery solution by the way, but like everything else, it is unconventional and will take a bit of intense effort to solve some technical issues in order to make it cost effective.
The TC-7520 uses my own designed dual power supply solution that comes close to battery performance. The current design can only maintain a charge for a few seconds during disconnection from the mains supply, but a future more advanced version might last a few minutes. I can't disclose anything more than that since I am looking at possible patent applications.
HighFidelityGuy
07-04-2009, 09:48
Maybe his wife didn't like all the wiring?
Luckily my wife is quite understanding of such things providing I make an effort to keep things tidy and I allow her to indulge in her obsession with shoes and handbags every couple of months or so. :)
So back to my original question; can battery PSU's be better than a mains PSU for powering the 7520?
Edit: Doh, I didn't notice you had snuck an edit in there. Ok, so I guess battery PSU's can be better than mains PSU's or you wouldn't be spending the time developing one. Now I understand why you are refraining from giving details on this subject and that's fair enough. Thanks.
apmusson
07-04-2009, 12:14
Guys,
Thought you'd like to know that the presoldered THS4032 board and decoupling cap combo is back on ebay. If you want to try the THS4032 this is a drop in upgrade on the 7520 - no soldering required.
It sold out in a couple of hours last time (6 units), but this time they've put 20 units on sale. I've already had another one myself.
Heres a link --> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/THS4032CD-Dual-Op-Amp-Beresford-DAC-Upgrade-8-PIN-DIL_W0QQitemZ260389832932QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI _Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item260389 832932&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1300%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318
Two more gone, but then I'm done fiddling around for awhile! If they're that much better than the 4562s I'll be a very happy camper.
Guys,
Thought you'd like to know that the presoldered THS4032 board and decoupling cap combo is back on ebay. If you want to try the THS4032 this is a drop in upgrade on the 7520 - no soldering required.
It sold out in a couple of hours last time (6 units), but this time they've put 20 units on sale. I've already had another one myself.
Heres a link --> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/THS4032CD-Dual-Op-Amp-Beresford-DAC-Upgrade-8-PIN-DIL_W0QQitemZ260389832932QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI _Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item260389 832932&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1300%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318
mwahahaha
07-04-2009, 17:39
Same board as trailer (from Tirna Electronics. I noticed that trailers amp board (containing the IC sockets) was lower against the Headphone socket. When I looked at mine I had a sticky pad between the headphone socket and the amp board, so I removed that which lowered everything by a couple of mm. However the caps still stick out over the case (see pic).
Ade
Same here - tirna electronics board arrived today and the case won't close with the new amp installed:( The cap gets in the way of the case closing.
Damn - always a catch:doh:
Covenant
07-04-2009, 18:04
Same here - tirna electronics board arrived today and the case won't close with the new amp installed:( The cap gets in the way of the case closing.
Damn - always a catch:doh:
Whilst waiting for mine to arrive I have been pondering the case not closing issue.
One idea may be to get two thin strips of wood as packers between the two parts of the case. It would cause a gap above the front face but you could argue that was for ventilation.
Stupid idea? :mental:
mwahahaha
07-04-2009, 18:09
I have a feeling there's a different type of socket adaptor used on Trailers which will allow the lid to shut.
On my unit you have the green pcb then some brass coloured feet and then the black plastic of the adaptor - on the photo's of Trailers it looks as though those brass feet/spacers aren't there (Could be the photo of course)
Yeah a chock at the front and back would work or to be really crude pop a dent in the underside of the lid where the cap is to allow the lid to close with th ee cap underneath (Not exactly pretty though;))
I'm going to have to think of something though as they sound great so aren't going anywhere!
Covenant
07-04-2009, 18:13
Eeeeeurgh! No one would dent their case would they? Maybe put a hole through-like the Modwright Transporter where the valves stick through.
mwahahaha
07-04-2009, 18:18
Here's an (incredibly aweful) photo to kind of show what I mean by the feet/socket etc.
Link (http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/LpRKtzque1NNlUdTNbfOTg?feat=directlink)
Emailed the guys at Tirna about this very issue, heres the reply:
Hi,
If there is an IC holder socket that the previous chip was slotted into then yes, you can just put the new chip straight into as it has turned (round) pins suitable for insertion anto an IC holder. Otherwise you will have to solder it into place. I can confirm that the height of the chip from the start of the plastic part of the pins to the top of the capacitor is 10.5mm. You will need 10.5mm of clearance when the chip is mounted into an IC holder, and it will be taller than 10.5mm, when the chip is not slotted into an IC holder. As I have never seen a Beresford DAC 'in the flesh', I cannot give any more accurate a description than this.
Regards,
Alan Dripps,
Tirna Electronics Ltd.
HighFidelityGuy
07-04-2009, 20:19
Is it possible to slide the black plastic spacers off the pins and snip the pins shorter? I don't see why you need the spacers if you're going to continue using the IC socket.
StanleyB
07-04-2009, 20:25
As I have never seen a Beresford DAC 'in the flesh', I cannot give any more accurate a description than this.
Alan Dripps,
Tirna Electronics Ltd.[/I]
I would have thought that Alan would have done the sensible thing and buy a TC-7520 to make sure his modification would work and fit properly in a TC-7520 before he lets TC-7520 owners find out the case won't close. I am most disappointed that he is cashing in on the craze without giving the right sort of support for his mod.
My advise to you guys is to stick to updating to the LM4562NA for the time being until we can find a better solution for those who want to try out the THS4032.
Stan
I have to agree Stan, if they was just selling op-amps mounted on converter boards fair enough but the description does say Beresford dac upgrade:scratch:
They have obviously never even tested the op-amp in the dac either
I've checked mine again today and the 4032 doesn't touch the case.
Weird.
If the cap did touch the case would it be that big of an issue?
mwahahaha
07-04-2009, 21:10
damn shame as it sounds bloody brilliant! Anyone fancy soldering it to the board for me rather than using the socket:eyebrows:
mwahahaha
07-04-2009, 21:15
I've checked mine again today and the 4032 doesn't touch the case.
Weird.
If the cap did touch the case would it be that big of an issue?
If you get a chance could you try to get a pic side-on of the adaptor/opamp/socket just so I can compare to mine?
Cheers
Dan
StanleyB
07-04-2009, 21:24
I have to agree Stan, if they was just selling op-amps mounted on converter boards fair enough but the description does say Beresford dac upgrade:scratch:
They have obviously never even tested the op-amp in the dac either
A most unsatisfactory situation. I reckon that the THS4032 gravy train just came off the rails for that seller.
shit....
sorry mate (if your reading this?)
Thats said, perhaps an unintentionally misleading advert?
Mabye the Guy just read the forum interest about the Op Amp?
My 2p worth
Don't think it is a gravy train at the price charged, more being helpful to people not prepared to do smd soldering. If they withdraw the project it will pee off more people than not being able to put the lid back on I think.
Ducks for cover !!!!
Nick
Yeah, "gravy train" seems a bit harsh. How many users are going to fiddle with op amps? I'm betting he hasn't ordered a new car over this. And if this was meant to be an op-amp-roller's delight, perhaps there should have been more room? I'm assuming that limitation wasn't meant to hurt anyone either.
Anyway, I emailed him to cancel this morning's order unless he figures out a solution.. because of course it shouldn't be called a Beresford "upgrade" unless it fits. Or includes a really cool LED lit plastic roof over the amp section after you cut out a hole to make room. Or fake tubes!
I'll let you know if I hear back from them.
I wonder if he can get the cap to not sit on top of the chip; or would the legs be too long to be effective?
The correspondance I had with the guy was pleasant and helpful.
Seems pretty accomodating to his customers, offering soldering services etc?
Im sure he'd be as surprised as we were to find out about the case clearance problem.
Am I right in saying that not EVERYONE has had this problem?
I sent him the picture from here so he sees how much lateral room there is.. I don't know crap, but maybe the filter can end up on the side of the op amp instead of sitting on top.
The pins used on the Browndogs would probably be more suitable http://cimarrontechnology.com/so8to8-pindipadapterpn970601.aspx
The pins with the black plastic are a lot taller
If it was me I'd just remove the 8pin socket and solder the 4032 converter board direct to the pcb, to save headaches just use the lm4562, it may not be quite as good but be less hassle for those unable to sort the space issue out
I for another don't think it was a gravy train issue. We've all been trying different "modifications" out over the months with varying degrees of success, some DIY, some getting the "DIY done for us". I guess at the end of the day the profit margin on the 4032s that Tirna have been selling must have been a few quid each. If he sold twenty then that's probably enough for a tank of petrol never mind a Rolls Royce.
OK guys, here are a couple of pictures showing the "original" BrownDog adapter which I used to mount the THS4032 and ceramic capacitor:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3556/3410025132_6eccaa01dd.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3244/3410024678_3a40ebf3a7.jpg?v=0
Here is the adapter with the chip and cap fitted:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3322/3410025378_f8abdf015a.jpg?v=0
The distance from the underside of the adapter to the top of the capacitor is 5.5mm - So when it is installed in the TC-7520 socket(s) there is ample clearance between the cap and the case cover.
What I have also done is removed the sub-pcb by cutting away all the hot-melt gunge and sticky pad and trimmed all the component leads to allow the pcb to sit slightly (abot 2mm) lower. Of course I insulated the 2 caps on the main board with bits of tape before re-fitting the sub-pcb. There were also one or two solder joints I re-flowed to allow me to seat a couple of components firmer.
Hope this is of some use.
Ken
mwahahaha
08-04-2009, 09:15
That's much more like it Ken, it's missing the black plastic feet that jack mine up those precious few mm!
I might ask Tirna to solder the whole shabang to the board and remove the socket as I'm more than happy with the 4032. I'll be dac-less for a few days but if I can get the lid back on it'll be all good.
HighFidelityGuy
08-04-2009, 09:35
On the subject of power supplies, here's something interesting I found last night:
Never-Connected Power supply (http://www.never-connected.com/news3.html)
Unfortunately you can't buy them as a diy add-on. The manufacturer licenses out the use of the technology to other manufacturers. So perhaps this is something Stan could look into. I've go no idea on price.
Edit: I spoke to soon, you can buy these as an add-on from Trichord (http://www.trichordresearch.com/NC_Stand_Alone_PSU.html). You can spec the output specifications to suit your needs and they're available in black or silver. Still no mention of price though. I'll try and find out.
Covenant
08-04-2009, 09:46
That's much more like it Ken, it's missing the black plastic feet that jack mine up those precious few mm!
I might ask Tirna to solder the whole shabang to the board and remove the socket as I'm more than happy with the 4032. I'll be dac-less for a few days but if I can get the lid back on it'll be all good.
Not the route that I want to go down. I want to be able to try other op-amps as and when they become available. Has anyone asked Tirna whether the capacitor can be mounted to one side (if this gives enough clearance)?
HighFidelityGuy
08-04-2009, 09:49
Alternatively someone could ask Tirna to use the same type of pins as on the BrownDog version. Or, as I mentioned before, you could remove the black plastic spacers and trim the pins shorter.
StanleyB
08-04-2009, 09:52
On the subject of power supplies, here's something interesting I found last night:
Never-Connected Power supply (http://www.never-connected.com/news3.html)
Unfortunately you can't buy them as a diy add-on. The manufacturer licenses out the use of the technology to other manufacturers. So perhaps this is something Stan could look into.
Why:confused:? Are you implying their technology would offer more benefits than the Dual Power Supply circuit I designed for the TC-7510 and TC-7520? Or is this a case of jumping on someone else's bandwagon?
I prefer to innovate, not copy others blindly, especially when I have a problem with the marketing blurb that hides the technical realities behind a product.
HighFidelityGuy
08-04-2009, 10:06
Why:confused:? Are you implying their technology would offer more benefits than the Dual Power Supply circuit I designed for the TC-7510 and TC-7520? Or is this a case of jumping on someone else's bandwagon?
I prefer to innovate, not copy others blindly, especially when I have a problem with the marketing blurb that hides the technical realities behind a product.
It's certainly not my intention to imply their design is better than yours, that is something you can investigate if you wish. You've stated yourself that the opamps supplied with the 7520 can be improved upon and that the PSU supplied with the 7520 can be improved upon. I'm simply bringing a possible alternative to a standard PSU to everyone's attention. It's up to you and everyone else to decide if it's worth trying or not.
Just for clarification. When I say the PSU of the 7520, I'm talking about the transformer that plugs in the mains. Not the internal PSU of the 7520.
Alternatively someone could ask Tirna to use the same type of pins as on the BrownDog version. Or, as I mentioned before, you could remove the black plastic spacers and trim the pins shorter.
Are the black plastic spacers easy to remove?
Is it just a case of prying the spacers off the pins then snipping back the pins so they are shorter?
*Are the spacers NEEDED for elecrical insulation purposes or whatever?
(no soldering/electronics ability here WHATSOEVER!)
thanks!
HighFidelityGuy
08-04-2009, 10:41
Are the black plastic spacers easy to remove?
Is it just a case of prying the spacers off the pins then snipping back the pins so they are shorter?
(no soldering/electronics ability WHATSOEVER!)
ta.
I think it should be that easy. I've not received mine through the post yet so I can't say for sure. However I've soldered those pin headers to PCB's before and it's been a pain to stop the pins from moving in and out of the spacer and ending up different lengths. So they should slide off fairly easily. They probably will be a bit tighter than before the pins are soldered in place though due to the added friction of all the pins being stationary. I'll try it out on mine when they arrive.
I know the NCPSU used in the Trichord stuff, infact I could easily draw out the circuit but won't :ner:
Regarding those pin sockets with the plastic on, I don't think removing the plastic is going to help I'm afraid chaps, I'm pretty sure the pins covered in that plastic is too thick to go through the converter board holes anyway, feel free to check just to be sure though:)
I have a brown dog type converter and one using the pins with plastic collars on so will post a pic later of them side by side, theres quite a difference in height.
These are currently in other gear (DC servo for an amp and a simple linestage) so I'll have to take them out first
StanleyB
08-04-2009, 11:35
I know the NCPSU used in the Trichord stuff,
So do I, and I consider it inferior to the Virtual Battery circuit from Technics or the power supply circuit from JL Hood.
HighFidelityGuy
08-04-2009, 12:38
Regarding those pin sockets with the plastic on, I don't think removing the plastic is going to help I'm afraid chaps, I'm pretty sure the pins covered in that plastic is too thick to go through the converter board holes anyway, feel free to check just to be sure though:)
I have a brown dog type converter and one using the pins with plastic collars on so will post a pic later of them side by side, theres quite a difference in height.
These are currently in other gear (DC servo for an amp and a simple linestage) so I'll have to take them out first
Your right Leo, my Tirna chips have just arrived and I've compared them next to my BrownDog adapter boards. The pins that Tirna have used are much longer. Also, the section of the pin that's covered by the black plastic spacers is much thicker than the part of the pin that fits in the socket. So even if you managed to remove the spacers and cut the pins shorter you could only loose about 1mm of the height. :(
So with the Tirna boards I think the only two options are to either remove the IC socket from the 7520 or swap the pins on the adapter board for some shorter ones like those used on BrownDog boards. :(
As I have both adapter board types I guess I could swap the pins from the BrownDog boards onto the Tirna ones if the PCB holes are the same size. I'll probably try this eventually but for now I'll use the Tirna ones as they are to try them out.
Edit: Here are a couple of photos I've just taken of the two adapter boards side by side. Sorry about the crappy quality, my phone camera sucks.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/DTM2000/Hi-Fi/Adapter01.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/DTM2000/Hi-Fi/Adapter02.png
Covenant
08-04-2009, 13:13
Good God I thought my eyes had gone. :lol:
HighFidelityGuy
08-04-2009, 13:19
I know, they're terrible. :doh: Hopefully it will give everyone a rough idea of the massive difference in height between the two. The pins aren't anywhere near as thick as they look there, that's just bloom or whatever you call it caused by the crappy camera and the harsh lighting.
I think it should be that easy. I've not received mine through the post yet so I can't say for sure. However I've soldered those pin headers to PCB's before and it's been a pain to stop the pins from moving in and out of the spacer and ending up different lengths. So they should slide off fairly easily. They probably will be a bit tighter than before the pins are soldered in place though due to the added friction of all the pins being stationary. I'll try it out on mine when they arrive.
Excellent, Cheers!
:)
*EDIT*
Bugger
Daft question alert...
Meantime, would the case lid sitting on the cap (not much weight) do any harm? Any electrical probs?
It wouldnt be a permenant situation.
So do I, and I consider it inferior to the Virtual Battery circuit from Technics or the power supply circuit from JL Hood.
Well I never said it was the best, for me Paul Hynes has taken first place
The NCPS is quite a simple circuit, its pretty effective but the prices are a little too much for what you get
I know most of the JLH stuff including the gadget plugged into the output of regulators :)
Having a bad day Stan? ;)
Is this pic any clearer;)
Looking back at the other pic it seems the pins Tirna use are even longer than these
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/12749957/360820197.jpg
mwahahaha
08-04-2009, 15:24
Can't really do any better than the email I just had from Alan@Tirna -
"Hi,
A customer of ours has pointed out that the Dual Op amp Beresford DAC upgrade does not allow the Beresford case to close on it, the adaptor is sitting too high.
If you have a problem with it fitting in the case, please return it to us, and we will try to solve the problem (which we are working on now).
We will refund the cost of sending it to us through PayPal, and if we cannot solve the problem than we will issue a full refund of the original amount paid.
We apologize for any inconvenience caused,
Regards,
Alan Dripps,
Tirna Electronics Ltd."
HighFidelityGuy
08-04-2009, 15:52
More info on the Tirna 4032 package:
I emailed them today after I received my chips and explained the situation to them. They replied and said that they are holding all current orders and asking people who have received their order to send it back. They also said that they have sent me a modified version with shorter pins and the cap mounted on the back. I'm going to liaise with them to help them perfect the design. I'll post more details when I get the new version. :)
Edit: Opps, must remember to refresh page before posting. Thanks Dan. I guess I'm the customer Alan mentioned, cool. :)
Just got some LT1364's from Linear :(
mwahahaha
08-04-2009, 15:56
More info on the Tirna 4032 package:
I emailed them today after I received my chips and explained the situation to them. They replied and said that they are holding all current orders and asking people who have received their order to send it back. They also said that they have sent me a modified version with shorter pins and the cap mounted on the back. I'm going to liaise with them to help them perfect the design. I'll post more details when I get the new version. :)
Excellent! thanks for helping us all out by ironing out the design with them. I'll hang onto mine with the lid off until there's a new working design ready to go and then get it swapped over (Don't want to go back to the others now!)
Thanks again
Dan
Just got some LT1364's from Linear :(
I'm currently evaluating some of these in another dac after another forum member gave them high praise.
Have you tried them yourself yet?
HighFidelityGuy
08-04-2009, 15:59
Excellent! thanks for helping us all out by ironing out the design with them. I'll hang onto mine with the lid off until there's a new working design ready to go and then get it swapped over (Don't want to go back to the others now!)
Thanks again
Dan
No problem. I'm going to hang onto mine until I get the replacements. ;)
I'm currently evaluating some of these in another dac after another forum member gave them high praise.
Have you tried them yourself yet?
Give me a chance I'm just in through the door!!!!!
Give me a chance I'm just in through the door!!!!!
:lolsign:
Breaking News just in.....
Hi,
There will be a delay of a few days in sending your order, as we are looking into a problem pointed out by a previous customer regarding clearance height of the adaptor board in the Beresford DAC.
We apologize for any inconvenience caused.
Regards,
Alan Dripps,
Tirna Electronics Ltd.
Good service I'd say! :)
I'm currently evaluating some of these in another dac after another forum member gave them high praise.
Have you tried them yourself yet?
Stuck them in. Just listening for the last half hour. First impressions: leaner sound, not as rich, probably more detail. It's as if someone has boosted the mid range on the EQ. I'll let them run I'm for a day or two. A different sound to the others but pretty good so far.
HighFidelityGuy
08-04-2009, 17:37
I've had the 4032's running for about 30 mins now and first impressions are very good. Definitely a bit more detail than the 49720s and what I can only describe as a more even handed sound overall. Probably not quite as much bass punch as the 49720s but I don't mind that.
I'm really looking forward to getting my new speakers now as I think the 4032's will suit them nicely. I'll still try the 49720s and the original opamps with them as well for comparison.
mwahahaha
08-04-2009, 17:42
Listening again to the 4032's right now and they're just brilliant in my system - really tick all the right boxes and bass/mid/treble is superb - lots of each but not too much as to be overpowering in any specific area. Superb and really bring out the best in the 7520 - now just to actually get them into the 7520... (With the lid on;))
Covenant
08-04-2009, 18:32
Yes have to agree the 4032 has got rid of the one note bass I found a problem and the level of detail is superb.
Tirna has e-mailed me so I will be returning the op-amp so that it can be altered to fit under the lid. They can go on my list of favourite ebay sellers.
mwahahaha
08-04-2009, 18:44
Yes have to agree the 4032 has got rid of the one note bass I found a problem and the level of detail is superb.
Tirna has e-mailed me so I will be returning the op-amp so that it can be altered to fit under the lid. They can go on my list of favourite ebay sellers.
I'm thinking about auditioning a few of the Linn DS players just out of curiosity and hopefully the Naim dac if they release it soon however they'll have a job to outshine the 7520/4032 combo (And justify the extra cost!)
The Vinyl Adventure
08-04-2009, 23:19
I'm thinking about auditioning a few of the Linn DS players just out of curiosity and hopefully the Naim dac if they release it soon however they'll have a job to outshine the 7520/4032 combo (And justify the extra cost!)
i may have been banging on about it a bit, but i will just say again the majik ds is very good! sounds really good within my naim system. i would be interested in what it sounds like with the naim dac but at the mo i dont really feel its needed
that said the beresford closes the gap a lot more than it should do for the money and thats with the 4562's
i would love to do a comparison review within the same system but im not sure it would be much cop
just a quick pointer on the linn kit ,from what ik hear the prices go up a bloody barmy 20% 1st may
sorry to hijack the thread, i shall shh now
technobear
09-04-2009, 06:43
So, to sum up...
The "TC-7520 SE" will come with a Wolfson DAC and THS4032 op amps.
How much will it cost, Stan, and may I reserve the first one off the boat? :)
I'm currently evaluating some of these in another dac after another forum member gave them high praise.
Have you tried them yourself yet?
I've run the LT1364 in my modded 7510. A bit grainy right at first, needs some time to run in, then they'll smooth out. Seemed a more solid sound than the 49720 and better definition and speed than the OPA2134. Has anyone tried the AD8066 yet? I like those a lot. Superior channel separation.
rhmjmango
09-04-2009, 16:27
Hey thats funny. No opamps installed in the left and right sockets but still i hear music coming from my speakers, though no sound from the headphone. Can somebody explain why?
apmusson
09-04-2009, 19:23
So, to sum up...
The "TC-7520 SE" will come with a Wolfson DAC and THS4032 op amps.
How much will it cost, Stan, and may I reserve the first one off the boat? :)
I'll have one too.... :)
You should be on commission Trailer, just ordered a pair of 49720's for £12.49 shipped and have asked the seller to trim them down for me as he says he will do in the ad:)'Scuse the beginner question, but do we have to give the seller any trimming instructions or just ask for the trim? (strange, I have a sudden urge to get a haircut)
mwahahaha
10-04-2009, 14:20
I'd wait until we have a solution for the THS4038 case closing problem and then get those - much better than 49720's in my opinion.
I'd wait until we have a solution for the THS4032 case closing problem and then get those - much better than 49720's in my opinion.Already on order from Tirna, but as its only a few quid per opamp I feel duty-bound to get a 49720 as well and compare them (I'm happy enough with my 4562s now they're run-in but got to check the others!).
So... trimming instructions?:please:
For those not wanting to wait or don't mind getting their hands dirty :)
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2507
StanleyB
10-04-2009, 20:49
Different mods on my analogue PCB
http://www.beresford.me/images/mods/apcb.jpg
My WM8716 MOD
http://www.beresford.me/images/mods/wm8716.jpg
apmusson
10-04-2009, 22:09
And Stan..... Come on. Do they make a clear difference? I assume the Analogue mod is the THS4032 with some decoupling caps across 'something'
Is the DAC mod worthwhile?
Tell us more. Please.
Ade
StanleyB
10-04-2009, 22:25
I have no idea if it makes a difference. My test PCB has so many different changes, I have lost track of which one does what to the sound. The picture is just there for others to admire:).
apmusson
11-04-2009, 06:36
I have no idea if it makes a difference. My test PCB has so many different changes, I have lost track of which one does what to the sound. The picture is just there for others to admire:).
lol. Very impressive!
tizer2000uk
12-04-2009, 18:09
Just thought I'd let you guys know that the close case mod seems to have been resolved, the cap is now under the board as opposed to above it.
Cool news.
So Tirna are sending out the revised chip/boards then?
*EDIT*
Walked into that one huh? :)
If the cap fits under the board ok hopefully they have put via's on pin4 and pin8 so the cap is close as poss to the actual op-amp pins
If running the cap to the socket pins, the added track on the socket (also the track on those adaptor boards is thin) makes having the cap on the socket pins less effective
Did anyone get the original Tirna 4032 design to fit in the case?? Mine just arrived (shipped the day before they became aware) and they said 'return if doesn't fit'... I'm not clear if there's some differences in clearance in the 7520 due to how it's put together..
In other words.. should I take out my 4562s and try these, or just send them back? Thanks folks.
EDIT>> Nope, not even close. In fact, with all the hot glue on mine, moving the cap under the chip still wouldn't be low enough to close the case.
Oh well, I'll return and wait to see what's next!
HighFidelityGuy
14-04-2009, 13:14
Another update on the Tirna 4032 mod:
I received the new version of this today. The pins appear to be about 2mm shorter and the cap is now mounted underneath the board. so I think about 4-5mm of hight has been lost. Unfortunately the legs of the cap are bent round and soldered to the tops of the board legs, so they are quite a bit longer than they were before. I'll take some photos when I get them home tonight and I'll use a better camera this time. ;)
I've had the LT1364's in for a week now.
They are rather good too. Not as wide a soundstage but it seems to be more of a front to back stage. (if that makes sense). Great detail. Only criticism is that with some recordings they sound a tad bright. I'd certainly recommend them as an option.
Another update on the Tirna 4032 mod:
I received the new version of this today. The pins appear to be about 2mm shorter and the cap is now mounted underneath the board. so I think about 4-5mm of hight has been lost. Unfortunately the legs of the cap are bent round and soldered to the tops of the board legs, so they are quite a bit longer than they were before. I'll take some photos when I get them home tonight and I'll use a better camera this time. ;)
Good news, I await mine in the post.
Why would the longer Cap legs be a problem?
HighFidelityGuy
14-04-2009, 14:50
Good news, I await mine in the post.
Why would the longer Cap legs be a problem?
It means the cap is further away from the opamp and therefore less affective. I'll leave the explanation of why it's less affective and whether that's important to someone who understands electronics better than me. ;)
It means the cap is further away from the opamp and therefore less affective. I'll leave the explanation of why it's less affective and whether that's important to someone who understands electronics better than me. ;)
Tirna guy reckons the inductance of the repositioned cap wouldnt really be at audible frequencies..
no clue what that means, but he said its fixed the problem.
(which i can understand) :)
A few questions on this mod as I ponder sending the original (too tall) one back or soldering in place...
1. i haven't seen any comment/question on the effect of Stan's cap that's already on the board... aren't they now both in the circuit (though supposedly Stan's is too far away to have desired effect)?
2. If I decided to have this be my final opamp, and didn't believe in two different adapters in the path being optimum, might not Tirna's new board, without their cap, be close enough for Stan's cap to do it's duty if I removed Stan's opamp socket and soldered the Tirna straight to the board.
>>> Experts: do you think a little "audio perfection" is to be gained by directly soldering the newer Tirna board to the pc board, or is keeping Stan's socket in place just fine (especially if you guys aren't done finding the best opamp!)
3. What happened to some people complaining about a buzz or noise between songs (or something to that effect) with this mod?
Thanks folks!
Guys , if the legs are too long its totally defeating the object of having this additional cap:confused:
Add the track length on the socket board + the now extra length of the cap legs to the actual SMD op-amp:doh:
Remember there is a ceramic cap on the main board going to these same pins, your only adding the additional cap to get it close as possible to the new smd one
Any chance Stan will "bless" a particular method for using the 4032s??
Has anybody actually measured this chip with and without an additional cap yet???:scratch:
Leo,
How do find the 1364's? I'm pleasantly surprised.
HighFidelityGuy
14-04-2009, 20:10
I can report that the new version of the Tirna 4032 mod fits in my 7520 with the lid on. They are about 2mm below the lid. Saying that, I've removed the sticky pad and glue from under my amp board and trimmed all the component legs under it as short as I can get them, so even at this reduced hight they may not fit in some people 7520. I'm going to pass this info back to Tirna and see what they say.
Covenant
14-04-2009, 20:11
Has anybody actually measured this chip with and without an additional cap yet???:scratch:
Yes its about 6mm by 4mm :lol: Do you think we know what we are doing or something?
Hey!! We know what we're doing! We want the optimal sound for the least amount of money without getting our own electrical engineering degree!:eek:
Leo,
How do find the 1364's? I'm pleasantly surprised.
I don't have a 7520 but it works quite decent in another dac I've been trying it in, it went a bit bright with some material,it actually seemed to improve after some running in, sound was quite forward compared to say the LM4562
Certainly not a bad chip!
Hey!! We know what we're doing! We want the optimal sound for the least amount of money without getting our own electrical engineering degree!:eek:
Thats ok , it helps to be sure the upgraded IC is not ringing with oscillation though:eyebrows:
Yes its about 6mm by 4mm :lol: Do you think we know what we are doing or something?
:lolsign: all you need is a 7520 owner who also owns a scope
HighFidelityGuy
14-04-2009, 20:35
:lolsign: all you need is a 7520 owner who also owns a scope
I have a 7520 and a access to a digital scope. :eyebrows:
Just tell me what I need to do and I'll give it a go.
I don't have a 7520 but it works quite decent in another dac I've been trying it in, it went a bit bright with some material,it actually seemed to improve after some running in, sound was quite forward compared to say the LM4562
Certainly not a bad chip!
The detail is excellent. Best I've heard so far. Just need to tame the top end a bit.
I have a 7520 and a access to a digital scope. :eyebrows:
Then what you waiting for, get probing:lol:
HighFidelityGuy
14-04-2009, 20:46
Then what you waiting for, get probing:lol:
Someone to tell me what I'm looking for and how to look for it. :doh:
I know roughly how to use a scope but how should I set everything up to look for oscillation?
The detail is excellent. Best I've heard so far. Just need to tame the top end a bit.
Its another chip that may have some HF ringing, this could be making it sound bright.
Problem is chips like this and 4032 are bloody fast and high bandwidth, they don't always work too well as a straight drop in replacement for a circuit designed to use say a NE5532 without some adjustments/modifications .
Its another chip that may have some HF ringing, this could be making it sound bright.
Problem is chips like this and 4032 are bloody fast and high bandwidth, they don't always work too well as a straight drop in replacement for a circuit designed to use say a NE5532 without some adjustments/modifications .
I'd say it was more revealing of a poor recording.
Someone to tell me what I'm looking for and how to look for it. :doh:
I know roughly how to use a scope but how should I set everything up to look for oscillation?
If you've an idea how to use it I presume you know how to adjust the volt/div and time/div etc
Replay a test signal like a sine wave, these can be downloaded and burnt onto a disc.
Look at the signal on the op-amps input pins and compare it against the output pins
Heres some small ringing on a 1k sinewave
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/12749957/361410084.jpg
You can get much worse than that:) sometimes the output can look wild without any signal
HighFidelityGuy
14-04-2009, 22:38
If you've an idea how to use it I presume you know how to adjust the volt/div and time/div etc
Replay a test signal like a sine wave, these can be downloaded and burnt onto a disc.
Look at the signal on the op-amps input pins and compare it against the output pins
Heres some small ringing on a 1k sinewave
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1293/4634025/12749957/361410084.jpg
You can get much worse than that:) sometimes the output can look wild without any signal
That makes perfect sense to me, you'd make a good teacher if you're not one already. :smoking: I should be able to set this up before the end of the week. Thanks!:)
Covenant
14-04-2009, 22:40
What a helpful bunch of people are on this forum. :)
No problem! no better way to learn than to get stuck in:)
Funny thing is some people seem to like the effect of instability , it can give the impression of added air and detail, what your hearing is stuff thats not on the actual recording but caused by the HF ringing.
Nothing worse to my ears than this brightness/distortion, its not good long term for your kit either
BTW theres more involved with thorough testing but as a simple starter to at least give you an idea if the op-amp stands half a chance in there
Leo,
How do find the 1364's? I'm pleasantly surprised.
If you like detail and forwardness I'm thinking you'll also like the AD8066's. I was using the 1364's for awhile and then switched back to the 8066 and noticed they were doing much the same thing but more of it. I'm liking that speed and clarity combined with my tube amp much better than the LME49720. My wife loves them too and says they sound totally different whereas the others sound mostly alike (to her).
Note that I'm running it in a TC-7510. Leo or Stan, you reckon there would be much difference in the sound for a 7520?
rhmjmango
15-04-2009, 08:29
No problem! no better way to learn than to get stuck in:)
Funny thing is some people seem to like the effect of instability , it can give the impression of added air and detail, what your hearing is stuff thats not on the actual recording but caused by the HF ringing.
Nothing worse to my ears than this brightness/distortion, its not good long term for your kit either
BTW theres more involved with thorough testing but as a simple starter to at least give you an idea if the op-amp stands half a chance in there
Hi Leo, are you referring to the 1364 chip?;)
If you like detail and forwardness I'm thinking you'll also like the AD8066's. I was using the 1364's for awhile and then switched back to the 8066 and noticed they were doing much the same thing but more of it. I'm liking that speed and clarity combined with my tube amp much better than the LME49720. My wife loves them too and says they sound totally different whereas the others sound mostly alike (to her).
Note that I'm running it in a TC-7510. Leo or Stan, you reckon there would be much difference in the sound for a 7520?
Thanks for the suggestion. I have a modded 7510 and a standard 7520. Not much in it but I prefer the 7520.
Thanks for the suggestion. I have a modded 7510 and a standard 7520. Not much in it but I prefer the 7520.
I'd really like to get one of those 7520's. If only they had 2 optical inputs.
Covenant
15-04-2009, 17:17
Tirna have today refunded my money for the 4032 op amp. I take it that means they have not found a solution to the height problem.
Next op-amp please?
odd...
I got an email from them saying they had fixed the problem, and were sending out teh refitted caps???
Hdn't someone before in this thread said they had got it back from Tirna and it fitted ok?
*confused*
I haven't heard anything since the original "there's a delay" email.
:confused: :scratch:
Covenant
15-04-2009, 17:47
The funny thing is I told them I wasnt bothered and I would adapt the case if they couldnt solve the problem.
Oh well....
Heres what I got sent April 13th
Hi,
The inductance of the vias is negligible at audio frequencies.
Don't worry about it. We have a solution that allows the case to fit over the adaptor.
We are sending out all orders that haven't been sent yet, with the modification made, and modifying orders that are being sent back to us.
Regards,
Alan Dripps,
Tirna Electronics.
Hi Leo, are you referring to the 1364 chip?;)
:lol: well it behaved in a dac I tried it in, no idea how well it runs in either a TC-7510 or 7520
Seems like they're forcing an exchange on the originals. I'm returning mine tomorrow, but I was thinking of just demanding a refund.. it seems to me that they're selling a "Beresford Upgrade" that they've never tried themselves, and that doesn't feel kosher to me. Should be our option after they sold something that didn't fit in the case.
Guess we'll see. I don't mind paying if folks here are successful with the new version.
Heres what I got sent April 13th
Hi,
The inductance of the vias is negligible at audio frequencies.
Don't worry about it. We have a solution that allows the case to fit over the adaptor.
We are sending out all orders that haven't been sent yet, with the modification made, and modifying orders that are being sent back to us.
Regards,
Alan Dripps,
Tirna Electronics.
Heres what I got sent April 13th
Hi,
The inductance of the vias is negligible at audio frequencies.
Don't worry about it. We have a solution that allows the case to fit over the adaptor.
We are sending out all orders that haven't been sent yet, with the modification made, and modifying orders that are being sent back to us.
Regards,
Alan Dripps,
Tirna Electronics.
if theres via's on the converter boards which go straight through to the smd op-amp pins 4 and 8 soldering the cap on the bottom board to these via's should be ok
Sure you all know what via's are
Covenant
15-04-2009, 20:29
if theres via's on the converter boards which go straight through to the smd op-amp pins 4 and 8 soldering the cap on the bottom board to these via's should be ok
Sure you all know what via's are
I will be the first to own up and say I dont know....your not talking about the latin for street are you?
I will be the first to own up and say I dont know....your not talking about the latin for street are you?
you ever noticed little holes on double sided pcb's? those holes are through plated connecting parts of the top layer track to the bottom layer track.
If theres a via on the bottom of the little converter pcb going straight to those needed pins on the top layer it should be pretty close as long as the boards not too thick
tizer2000uk
15-04-2009, 21:57
Guys, the revised Tirna board does the job perfectly, I can quite honestly say it is a job well done and dealing with them has been a pleasure.
Guys, the revised Tirna board does the job perfectly, I can quite honestly say it is a job well done and dealing with them has been a pleasure.
Outstanding, kinda expecting nothing less from these guys.
A+ ebayer I'd say.
Hopefully mine will arrive tommorow and I'll slot them in.
4562's are outstanding, if these are better..
cool.
Oh, listening to "Kind of Blue" for the first time thru the 7520.
Fekkin hell - your in the room!
That's great news. I'll just take the swap then.
Guys, the revised Tirna board does the job perfectly, I can quite honestly say it is a job well done and dealing with them has been a pleasure.
Guys, the revised Tirna board does the job perfectly, I can quite honestly say it is a job well done and dealing with them has been a pleasure.
+1
Got mine this morning, fits in the case no problem whatsovever.
Here we go again, burn-in time! (mabye)
Covenant
16-04-2009, 12:57
My apologies to everyone for causing confusion-Tirna have only refunded the postage to me :doh:. The revised op-amp arrived today so I will fit it tonight after I finish work.
popped in a LT1364 this morning, my o my what a revelation versus the stock opamps - it's like a new DAC all over again.
the percussion, seperation, soundstage, vocals .....all much improved and i expected some improvement but not this drastic. as some have mentioned they are quite forward in presentation but not overly and i expect this will tone down a little after a few hrs - glad i don't have bright amps though as i think it might be too much. the increase in detail being picked up is incredible to be honest.... guitars,cymbals + spatial sounds are off the charts.
got some 4032's on the way also so will see how they fare versus these 1364's.
StanleyB
17-04-2009, 10:30
The stock opamps are the same that are being used in other far more expensive DACs like the DAC1. It just goes to show how excellent the TC-7520 is in its basic design. By loading up a set of more refined opamps you can challenge a lot of other DACs. I wonder how a TC-7520 with THS4032 opamps fitted would stack up against the seriously expensive opposition out there.
HighFidelityGuy
17-04-2009, 10:47
I'd be really interested to see/hear a shoot-out between the modded 7520 and some £1000+ DAC's and the Linn Sneaky DS. My local hi-fi shop currently use the Sneaky as there reference system since it beat there old £5000 CD transport + DAC setup. If I get chance sometime I might challenge them to a duel. :eyebrows:
I need to call in for a chat sometime soon anyway.
technobear
17-04-2009, 11:05
... I wonder how a TC-7520 with THS4032 opamps fitted would stack up against the seriously expensive opposition out there.
So when is the TC-7520 SE launching then Stan?
We're waiting :)
(But we won't wait forever. There's a new Wadia DAC out soon that promises to blow the Benchmark and Lavry DA10/11 and a few others clean out of the water)
:popcorn:
The stock opamps are the same that are being used in other far more expensive DACs like the DAC1. It just goes to show how excellent the TC-7520 is in its basic design. By loading up a set of more refined opamps you can challenge a lot of other DACs. I wonder how a TC-7520 with THS4032 opamps fitted would stack up against the seriously expensive opposition out there.
it's an interesting debate for sure, i've never heard the Benchmark DAC with my gear only at shows but at 5 times the price it's hard to justify for most of us considering how good the 7520 can sound with these cheap upgrades.
traditionally i would rather tradeup my speakers/amps to the next model up than spend good money on exotic DAC's but messing with these opamps has just reinforced how important the start of the chain really is, regardless of amps/speakers.... once that information is lost it's gone for good.
having a blast today though - pity about the neighbours :lol:
StanleyB
17-04-2009, 11:51
So when is the TC-7520 SE launching then Stan?
We're waiting :)
(But we won't wait forever. There's a new Wadia DAC out soon that promises to blow the Benchmark and Lavry DA10/11 and a few others clean out of the water)
I'll leave the TC-7520 as it is and just give the modders a chance to burn their fingers on their soldering iron. Part of the fun in owning a TC-7520 is knowing that you got a stock unit that can be transformed into something even more potent for a few dollars more.
I have been listening to the WM8716 mod on the TC-7520. When fitted to the TC-7510 the results were so so. But on the TC-7520 with the THS4032 for line output and LM4562NA for headphone output it's going to be hard to beat. The detail depth is better, which I reckon is due to the lower SN ratio of the WM8716. But it could also be due to the fact that the PCM1716 is only a 8X oversampling DAC, whilst the WM8716 is a 64X oversampling DAC.
However, please note that swapping the DAC chip over is an expert only job! The chances of success in getting it right without previous experience is less than 1% I reckon.
Stan
Interesting about that Wadia.
HighFidelityGuy
17-04-2009, 11:57
I'll leave the TC-7520 as it is and just give the modders a chance to burn their fingers on their soldering iron. Part of the fun in owning a TC-7520 is knowing that you got a stock unit that can be transformed into something even more potent for a few dollars more.
I have been listening to the WM8716 mod on the TC-7520. When fitted to the TC-7510 the results were so so. But on the TC-7520 with the THS4032 for line output and LM4562NA for headphone output it's going to be hard to beat. The detail depth is better, which I reckon is due to the lower SN ratio of the WM8716. But it could also be due to the fact that the PCM1716 is only a 8X oversampling DAC, whilst the WM8716 is a 64X oversampling DAC.
However, please note that swapping the DAC chip over is an expert only job! The chances of success in getting it right without previous experience is less than 1% I reckon.
Stan
Interesting about that Wadia.
Hmm, interesting.
Would you consider offering a return to base upgrade option where you charged for swapping the DAC chip?
Also, is it a straight swap or are other modifications required to make it work properly?
Thanks.
StanleyB
17-04-2009, 12:12
I only had a couple of the chips to try out, and they are now all used up.
It's a difficult job that requires cutting out the old chip, cleaning the area, and putting in the new chip. It is nerve wrecking and requires an eye surgeon's nerve and skill. And to do it as nicely and clean as I did mine requires several prayers beforehand...
Hi Stan,
Would be really interested in your own opinion of the THS4032 fitted to the 7510 over the stock opamp? Just about to give it ago and was curious about your own findings.
Regards
Chris
StanleyB
17-04-2009, 13:23
The THS4032 is a very good line driver, so it will handle even hard to control interconnecting leads between DAC and amplifier with a lot of control. It will also transform the TC-7510, but the LM4562MA is just s good in the TC-7510.
Covenant
17-04-2009, 13:50
I only had a couple of the chips to try out, and they are now all used up.
It's a difficult job that requires cutting out the old chip, cleaning the area, and putting in the new chip. It is nerve wrecking and requires an eye surgeon's nerve and skill. And to do it as nicely and clean as I did mine requires several prayers beforehand...
But it helps to have 4000 spare 7520's in the stockroom! :lol:
Well I fitted my 4032 last night and couldnt tear myself aware from it. I dont see how you can get much better than this.
Out of interest I got the improved Tirna 4032.
Couple of pictures below:
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8180/picture029small.jpg
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/2315/picture028small.jpg
rhmjmango
17-04-2009, 14:41
popped in a LT1364 this morning, my o my what a revelation versus the stock opamps - it's like a new DAC all over again.
the percussion, seperation, soundstage, vocals .....all much improved and i expected some improvement but not this drastic. as some have mentioned they are quite forward in presentation but not overly and i expect this will tone down a little after a few hrs - glad i don't have bright amps though as i think it might be too much. the increase in detail being picked up is incredible to be honest.... guitars,cymbals + spatial sounds are off the charts.
got some 4032's on the way also so will see how they fare versus these 1364's.
There is quite a big difference in sound signature when using one or two LT1364 opamps. I had a LM4562 in the line socket and a LT1364 in the headphone socket for a couple of days and i noticed that the high frequencies where dominating on my Grado headphones, very detailed, very forward, very dynamic, but for me too much off everything.
I changed the LM4562 for another LT1364 and the sound signature changed completely. Now the low frequencies dominate much more and make the sound more balanced and less fatique. The bass now is really BIG!
I am waiting for the 4032 chip from Tirna how they stand out to this config.:)
apmusson
17-04-2009, 15:36
Well I fitted my 4032 last night and couldnt tear myself aware from it. I dont see how you can get much better than this.
I agree. The 4032 is superb. I would be up for a 7520 SE (Wolfson DAC & 4032) if Stan eventually decides to offer one. :cool:
Ade
... But on the TC-7520 with the THS4032 for line output and LM4562NA for headphone output it's going to be hard to beat.
Stan.. why do you prefer the 4562 on the HPA? Is it particularly suited to your AKG 701s and you might choose differently if you had Sennheisers? Just curious, as I have two 4562s and maybe should have Tirna just send one 4032 back instead of two.
Can anyone show a pic of how to install the newer 4032 (just a pic of it sitting in the socket) so I don't screw it up when it comes?
Can anyone show a pic of how to install the newer 4032 (just a pic of it sitting in the socket) so I don't screw it up when it comes?I'm an electronic mega-dunce and I've just used Stan's photo on page 35 of this thread as my guide to which way up - his left-hand opamp is the 4032. You'll need good eye-sight though, the chip is absolutely tiny!
http://www.beresford.me/images/mods/apcb.jpg
On the board you can see a small white arrow pointing to pin 1. This is in the top right hand corner on the board in the picture above.
I've stuck the 4032 back in after a week listening to the LT1364's. Straight away the sound is better.
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4628/picturesmall.jpg
StanleyB
17-04-2009, 17:24
Anyone noticed the other mods on my PCB;)?
Anyone noticed the other mods on my PCB;)?
Aye, the connections at the top aren't too clear though Stan?
Anyone noticed the other mods on my PCB;)?There's a couple of big lumpy things stuck on it?
Thanks guys.
Stan.. about the two chips vs. the HPA? (see above)
There is quite a big difference in sound signature when using one or two LT1364 opamps. I had a LM4562 in the line socket and a LT1364 in the headphone socket for a couple of days and i noticed that the high frequencies where dominating on my Grado headphones, very detailed, very forward, very dynamic, but for me too much off everything.
I changed the LM4562 for another LT1364 and the sound signature changed completely. Now the low frequencies dominate much more and make the sound more balanced and less fatique. The bass now is really BIG!
I am waiting for the 4032 chip from Tirna how they stand out to this config.:)
thanks that's quite interesting, i've got another 1364 i can pop into the headphone socket so i might pop that in before the beers and see if i get the same outcome. :)
i've given the single 1364 a good 6-7hrs playing time today and some of the forwardness has gone and a bit more bass has developed in the last hour ......was a little bass shy at first compared to the stock opamp (about the only negative) but not much in reality - i could easily live with the 1364 as it stands tbh, definitely lively but not harsh at all for most of my recordings....i think my Arcam amps gell with them nicely.
sounds like the 4032 really stand on top though, mine still aren't with me....but the 1364 is sounding phenomenal, and i can't imagine the 4032 actually improving it lol. - played a wide variety of tunes today Devo (yes Devo rock), Get Well Soon, Hot Chip (sounds unbelievable), INXS, Massive Attack, Black Crowes, Slipknot ....all of it sounds vastly improved and the metal/rock albums have a lot more energy than before.
Covenant
17-04-2009, 18:48
So what are the extra caps doing Stan?
They look to be soldered to 10k resistors which seem close to op-amp pins 8, Hmm, extra decoupling for the op-amps?
StanleyB
17-04-2009, 20:53
When using high current opamps it helps to have some extra energy storage close to the supply pins. Reggae and drum-n-bass lovers would notice the difference.
ReachtheSky
18-04-2009, 04:55
[QUOTE=Sensimilia;42020]I have been listening to the WM8716 mod on the TC-7520. When fitted to the TC-7510 the results were so so. But on the TC-7520 with the THS4032 for line output and LM4562NA for headphone output it's going to be hard to beat.
Stan
Hi Stan,
Is this your current optimum setup?
Could you explain your preference or suggestion to use "the THS4032 for line output and LM4562 for headphone output?"
Do you think this is better than using THS4032 in both locations?
Thanks Granville
StanleyB
18-04-2009, 05:52
More than one person has asked me about my preference, and in particular about how I use one LM4562 and one THS4032. The simple answer is that I am not hardwired to any particular configuration. I don't have the luxury to listen to the same DAC for too long. Every day brings new challenges and new ideas for me to try out. So I can't say what's best. I can only mention what I enjoy most.
Stan
HighFidelityGuy
18-04-2009, 07:14
When using high current opamps it helps to have some extra energy storage close to the supply pins. Reggae and drum-n-bass lovers would notice the difference.
Hmm, very interesting. I can see this suiting me nicely with my love of the bass. :eyebrows:
So other than the 100uF electrolytic cap between the resistors, I notice that a couple of the smaller caps (LC5 and LC6) are missing in that picture. Do these need removing to make the mod work properly?
Thanks.
http://www.beresford.me/images/mods/apcb.jpg
StanleyB
18-04-2009, 07:24
I notice that a couple of the smaller caps (LC5 and LC6) are missing in that picture. Do these need removing to make the mod work properly?
No comment:smoking:.
HighFidelityGuy
18-04-2009, 07:52
No comment:smoking:.
You like to keep us guessing don't you Stan. :ner:
Sorry I got the numbers wrong, that should have been MLC5 and MLC6.
Right, so I think the new cap goes between opamp pins 4 and 8. which we already know is for input power decoupling.
The two smaller caps appear to be 100pF and MLC5 appears to be between opamp pins 1 and 2, which are output A and inverting input A respectively.
MLC6 appears to be between opamp pins 6 and 7, which are inverting input B and output B respectively.
So the two smaller caps aren't on power lines so I'm guessing they are unrelated to the new cap but with my lack of electronics knowledge I'm probably wrong. :lol:
Would anyone else like to chip in here. :confused:
Anyone noticed the other mods on my PCB;)?
Its either my eyes playing tricks on me but it seems a few resistor values in the phones section have been tweaked too:)
StanleyB
18-04-2009, 11:37
Its either my eyes playing tricks on me but it seems a few resistor values in the phones section have been tweaked too:)
They are. I reduced the SPL.
Just thought I'd post an update on what I have done recently regarding op amps etc.
Firstly, I have decided to re-fit the 2 LM4562NA's - After quite long listening sessions, I think they have better synergy with both the K701's and the HD600's than the THS4032.
Secondly, I have never been happy with the op amp sockets - The op amps have always felt a bit "loose" in their sockets. So I removed them and have replaced with a couple of ulta low profile sockets by Mill-Max [part no 115-93-308-41-003000]. I got these from Digi-Key [part ED5308-ND] a while back for another project. They aint cheap at 80p each, but they are very good.Not only that, they sit 2mm lower than the stock socket, which has to be a good thing.
The TC-7520 is now sounding pretty good ;) Thanks Stan...
OK, that's it for now.
Ken
Quietschbox
20-04-2009, 20:13
"After quite long listening sessions, I think they have better synergy with both the K701's and the HD600's than the THS4032."
More detail on this? After all, people in this thread never mentioned their amplifier and speakers combos.
Which, as far as i know, are almost as important as both the DAC and output circuit type in use.
Or is this "the end" to the opamp replacement-project already, so the only remaining and convincing option may be replacing the DAC itself?
That would be sad. :(
Regarding the announced Wadia 121:
http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Wadia_151_121
http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/wadia_need_next/
this thing will be expensive, but i expect it to be a killer DAC.
Have a look at this DAC shootout:
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-100-1382.html
If you want me to translate sopecific parts, ask for.
The nutshell:
The "Wadia 12" DAC from years ago totally sunk them all, soundwise.
More detail on this? ...
With the op amp upgrade, I didn't want a one trick pony, but ones that suited both my main headphones via the headphone socket in the 7520 and the line-out through my existing headphone amplifier.
I try to limit my comments on actual sound, as this is very subjective but for my ears the combination of LM4562 op amps works best.
This to me is the fun of DIY - Trying different mods etc to achieve (for me) a better sound. :)
Ken
StanleyB
21-04-2009, 08:37
"After quite long listening sessions, I think they have better synergy with both the K701's and the HD600's than the THS4032."
More detail on this? After all, people in this thread never mentioned their amplifier and speakers combos.
Which, as far as i know, are almost as important as both the DAC and output circuit type in use.
I mentioned the combination of THS4032 on the line output and LM4562NA on the headphone output as my own preference. So there is still a bit of experimenting to be done for headphone users.
Or is this "the end" to the opamp replacement-project already, so the only remaining and convincing option may be replacing the DAC itself?
That would be sad. :(
The TC-7520 is one of the very few DACs that has user friendly modification potentials. But I am quite happy to take your deposit for your next DAC. You still got till the end of the year before I can figure out what new idea to come up with.
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-100-1382.html
If you want me to translate sopecific parts, ask for.
The nutshell:
The "Wadia 12" DAC from years ago totally sunk them all, soundwise.
Privately, many people have emailed me with their views that the TC-7520 is also better than the same DACs the WADIA was compared against. So nothing new there. If you surf the net it is very noticeable that the TC-7520 is hardly mentioned in any tests against other DACs. The same was not the case with the TC-7510, where people made great efforts to try to point out that the TC-7510 was bettered by DAC X/Y/Z. Early days yet, but I suspect that the TC-7520 is going to take something special that can outgun it, especially with the various opamp mods.
Stan
Quietschbox
21-04-2009, 10:14
I mentioned the combination of THS4032 on the line output and LM4562NA on the headphone output as my own preference. So there is still a bit of experimenting to be done for headphone users.
Ah well. This takes some weight out of Sponge's post. Misunderstood line out was meant.
The TC-7520 is one of the very few DACs that has user friendly modification potentials. But I am quite happy to take your deposit for your next DAC. You still got till the end of the year before I can figure out what new idea to come up with.
Well Stan. I don't know what this means. Is this misplaced criticism of sorts, in response to some honest comment ("would be sad")? After all, modding, as you yourself put it, means challenge fun and options for sound improvement at low cost. Sponge's post seemed to deliver a serious blow to that.
If it was not criticism, my honest opinion is that waiting to the end of the year is quite risky these times. Noone knows when things will really start to fall apart, so they can officially usher in their beloved global tyranny, on their own manufactured petty pretexts and silent consent of ignorant masses.
popped in my TH4032 opamps this morning after using the LT1364 for a few days of heavy use.
i must say that the 1364 is a much more revealing opamp than the 4032 with my gear but i have to agree with the others about HF ringing/brightness ....on some material it is extremely fatiguing - but this opamp really shines at times.
4032 sounds quite neutral and balanced so far - what to try next?? :lolsign:
what to try next?? :lolsign:
Get that Wolfson DAC chip in.
StanleyB
21-04-2009, 12:46
Well Stan. I don't know what this means. Is this misplaced criticism of sorts, in response to some honest comment ("would be sad")?
Nope. I mean what I say. If you need a Paypal invoice in case you think I am not serious, let me know:).
Get that Wolfson DAC chip in.
my hands aren't steady enough for that kind of surgery.
ReachtheSky
23-04-2009, 04:42
I have never attempted to change opamps before, even those in sockets. Would someone please advise a novice such as I how to do it with the 7520 without shorting out and damaging sensitive electronics!
I believe you need to earth the components somehow before starting, to prevent static damage, and do you then gently lever the existing opamp out with a small flat screwdriver? Then gently press the new ones into the same slots?
Thanks Granville
HighFidelityGuy
23-04-2009, 09:28
I have never attempted to change opamps before, even those in sockets. Would someone please advise a novice such as I how to do it with the 7520 without shorting out and damaging sensitive electronics!
I believe you need to earth the components somehow before starting, to prevent static damage, and do you then gently lever the existing opamp out with a small flat screwdriver? Then gently press the new ones into the same slots?
Thanks Granville
Hi Granville,
First off all, disconnect the DAC from the mains. I know it's obvious but I've got to mention it.
You need to make sure that you are connected to ground to prevent static damage. The best method is to use a proper anti-static wrist band connected to a special plug that goes in a mains socket. You can pick up a wrist band kit from most electronics suppliers. Using a proper wrist band will make sure both hands are free and they are also safer as they have a high resistance between you and ground to reduce the chance of electrocution. This is however unlikely when working on a low voltage DAC that's not plugged in. ;)
Failing that, just make sure that you keep in contact with something that's grounded as much as possible. Something like the outer metal of a phono plug that's connected to your amp, this will usually be connected to ground through the amp. Make sure you are grounded when touching the DAC or the separate opamps.
For removing the opamp, the best way would be to use a proper IC extractor tool, you can get these from electronics suppliers too. The proper tool pulls the IC out evenly and makes sure the pins don't get bent. Failing that I'd recommend something like a small flat screwdriver but preferably something that's plastic and not sharp. It's easy to slip and hack through the copper tracks on the PCB.
On the 7520 there are some small caps that are close to the opamp socket. These make getting to the sides of the opamp quite tricky. Make sure you don't press on these as they will crush quite easily.
Also, make sure you take your time and ease the opamp out bit by bit. If you rush you'll more than likely damage something.
Once you have the old opamp out, you'll need to form the pins on the new one to make it fit the socket. It your replacement is the same package type as the old one i.e. it's a silicon chip with 4 pins on either side, you will need to bend the pins in towards the chip slightly as they are usually too wide appart. If you are using a metal can opamp, you need to make sure you form the pins into the correct shape and order. This can be a bit tricky. Using some stripboard can help here as you can push the pins through the holes and get them the right shape. You'll then need to trim the pins to the correct lenght on this type of opamp.
Next you need to make sure you put the opamp in the socket the right way round. On a silicon package there is usually a dot next to pin 1 or sometimes a dent on the end between pin 1 and the opposite pin. In the case of the dent, pin 1 is on the left of the dent when you hold the chip so that the dent is at the top. The pin on the opposite side is pin 8. The opamp socket also as notch/dent at one end that should line up with the one on the opamp.
If you're using a metal can opamp, pin 8 usually has a tag above it. But it's always wise to download the data sheet and double check this.
If you get the 4032's on the adapter board, this can be tricky to tell which is pin 1. Personally I look at opamp (might need a magnifying glass) and turn it so I can read the writing on the chip. The bottom left pin is pin 1. Follow the copper track on the adapter board from pin 1 to the leg it's soldered to and make sure that goes to pin one on the socket.
Once the opamp/s are fitted, double check everything and then plug it back it.
That's the basics. I'm sure there's plenty of info about this online too, perhaps with pictures.
I hope that helps. :)
ReachtheSky
23-04-2009, 10:04
Hi HighFidelityGuy,
That certainly helps. Thank you very much for you extremely detailed effort to explain exactly what needs to be done when changing these opamps. I have a pair of THS4032 on order from Tirna elec for the 7520.
There may be one or two other non-electronic guys like me out there who’ll appreciate your instructions.
Cheers Granville
HighFidelityGuy
23-04-2009, 10:10
No problem. :)
I certainly wouldn't class my self as and electrics guy but I have had quite a lot of experience working with static sensitive equipment like PC's etc as I work in IT. So I'm ok with swapping parts etc but that's where my knowledge ends I'm afraid. :)
HighFidelityGuy
23-04-2009, 11:03
Hi Stan,
Would you consider selling the "opamp board" from the 7520 as a separate item for modders?
I was thinking today that it would make life a lot easier when trying out different opamps and other mods to have two boards to swap between.
What do you think?
Thanks.
rhmjmango
24-04-2009, 21:02
Nice combo!
LT1364 + LM4562(headphone)
Good balance of sound. Give it a try and see (hear) for yourself.
ReachtheSky
24-04-2009, 22:57
Nice combo!
LT1364 + LM4562
Which way around?
And what particularly did you like about the respective opamps?
OK, here is my take on the op-amps I have tried to date:
NE5532 - A Toyota Corolla chip - Cheap, reliable, perfectly capable but not able to make the pulse race.
OPA2132 - A Honda Accord chip - Does everything very well, would probably last a lifetime, solid and dependable - But pretty dull.
LT1364 - A Subaru Impreza chip - Very capable, lively yet practical, appeals to a certain type but can tend to be a bit harsh when driven hard.
LM4562NA - A BMW M5 chip - Designed for high performance but still very practical, smooth and sophisticated but just a BMW at the end of the day.
THS4032 - A Ferrari 365 chip - High performance, dynamic, very exciting and never dull, but hellish temperamental. No room for the kids.
Which do I drive?
A Beemer of course :)
Ken
Covenant
25-04-2009, 15:33
Wow-I have a Beemer and a Ferrari :gig:
ReachtheSky
25-04-2009, 23:10
Love your descriptions Ken.
I know you preferred the M5 for headphones, but which did you prefer for line out or preamp?
Still waiting for four bmw m5...singels..And they say there is a credit crunch on:eyebrows:
jon
Love your descriptions Ken.
I know you preferred the M5 for headphones, but which did you prefer for line out or preamp?
I have 2 M5's in there - It may be psychological, but when I changed the op-amp sockets, everything gelled and the best synergy for me came with the M5. Sure, the Ferrari is always exciting, but I wouldn't take it to the supermarket in heavy traffic - Whereas the M5 can be a pussycat - But with a Tiger under the loud pedal.
Ken.
It's all gone a bit Clarkson in 'ere! :)
(dons curly wig and tight jeans)
If this Op Amp was a girl.....
It's all gone a bit Clarkson in 'ere! :)
(dons curly wig and tight jeans)
If this Op Amp was a girl.....
Now that's a different subject..they would be all bmw minis:eyebrows:
jon
It's all gone a bit Clarkson in 'ere! :)
I think he would agree with me that the BMW M5 is the best sports saloon.................. In the world. :)
Quietschbox
26-04-2009, 15:18
LM4562NA - A BMW M5 chip - Designed for high performance but still very practical, smooth and sophisticated but just a BMW at the end of the day.
THS4032 - A Ferrari 365 chip - High performance, dynamic, very exciting and never dull, but hellish temperamental. No room for the kids.
I know where to order the Ferrari. But where to get the BMW, and how to
put it in place? Can one get the Ferrari and use its socket for the BMW?
And what about a, ahem, switch solution... impossible, useless, inferior, no way ever?
I know where to order the Ferrari. But where to get the BMW, and how to
put it in place? Can one get the Ferrari and use its socket for the BMW?
And what about a, ahem, switch solution... impossible, useless, inferior, no way ever?
There is the BMW..two singles http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/Diy-Hi-Fi-Shop_Opamps_W0QQ_fsubZ876615018QQ_sidZ125328348QQ_ trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322
jon
And what about a, ahem, switch solution... impossible, useless, inferior, no way ever?You could always buy a second 7250.....just a thought!
HighFidelityGuy
26-04-2009, 17:18
Does anyone know how difficult it would be to mod the volume control on the 7520 to make it remote controllable? I guess the pot would need swapping for a motorised one plus I'd need an Ir receiver suitable for controlling the motorised pot, or something like that. Does anyone know of any suitable kit's or parts suitable for the job?
I'm dismayed to see no one coming to the defense of the 4032 as I'm awaiting my replacement (to fit in case) set to be delivered this next week. I thought they were considered the best so far, and not too strident/wild with some material. I'm very much enjoying the 4562s right now.
Any new appraisals of the 4032s from others who'd sung their praise???
Covenant
26-04-2009, 18:16
I'm dismayed to see no one coming to the defense of the 4032 as I'm awaiting my replacement (to fit in case) set to be delivered this next week. I thought they were considered the best so far, and not too strident/wild with some material. I'm very much enjoying the 4562s right now.
Any new appraisals of the 4032s from others who'd sung their praise???
The 4032 is better in my system than the 4562 which I found a little bass heavy. Having said that I think the extremities of frequency response has increased over the past week so that there is little to choose between them other than the 4032 seeming to be more in control of bass response. Why this occurs I do not know :scratch:. An op-amp is not a capacitor so there is no chemical process involved.
I dont feel the need to try more op-amps but if a new one popped up that was liked I would try it.
Now IIRC Stan mentioned other tweaks.........
mwahahaha
26-04-2009, 18:20
I'm dismayed to see no one coming to the defense of the 4032 as I'm awaiting my replacement (to fit in case) set to be delivered this next week. I thought they were considered the best so far, and not too strident/wild with some material. I'm very much enjoying the 4562s right now.
Any new appraisals of the 4032s from others who'd sung their praise???
I still think the 4032's are brilliant and have had the lid off my 7520 for a few weeks as a result. Do you know if Tirna have got a working solution yet for the lid clearance we've had?
I don't want to send mine back though as I don't want to go back to the others for a few weeks while the new one comes through:doh:
Quietschbox
26-04-2009, 18:24
I'm dismayed to see no one coming to the defense of the 4032 as I'm awaiting my replacement (to fit in case) set to be delivered this next week. I thought they were considered the best so far, and not too strident/wild with some material. I'm very much enjoying the 4562s right now.
Any new appraisals of the 4032s from others who'd sung their praise???
Well, i don't know... browsing pages along the 4032 and 4562...
"Ad8620 Vs. THS4032"
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1658008
"In my Twistedpear COD DAC, at the balance to single conversion position after the AD826 IV, I have tried both AD8620 and THS4032, also LM4562, AD8066, LM6172, OPA2132 and OPA2064 etc.
*For pop/jazz/vocal music, I prefer THS4032 - a lot.*
The difference between THS4032 and other amp in this case is day and night. It sounds a lot fuller, more importantly, it has much better pace than other amp. It is simply more musical. It tips towards the lower end. But that is what I am looking for. Comparing to the Twistedpear Buffalo, the COD in on the thin side.
You have to try out THS4032."
Something for you?
This thread also says:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1156001#post1156001
"Have you checked the data sheet for the THS4032 compared to the older NJM4580?
It says the OP-amp (THS4032) cant drive a capacitive load unless it is smaller than 20pF. Check all outputs (pin 1 and pin7) to see if there is a proper protection resistor for to avoid oscillations and unstable operations. If there is capacitors connected right on the outputs it could be necessary to apply a series resistor from the output (20-75 ohm maximum). But Im not sure about the solution due to I dont have any schematics for the SRC2496 to look at and you havnt verified the oscillation on a scope?
Due to the high bandwith, this circuit operates in class-A and because of that it will be running pretty hot (ca 0.5W heat dissipating for each IC) but could of course run to hot if oscillate."
and
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1156028#post1156028
"Oscillating op-amps distort the sound badly, and that's what you are enjoying and calling "SOOO OOOOOPEN", distorted sound. Most pre-amp mods are actually based in making some stage oscillate by accident, but don't say it too loud or some people may become upset... (Anyway, the kind of people that does this stuff neither have an oscilloscope to check nor care about stability at all)."
and
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1156238#post1156238
"You can't use the THS4032 for most audio applications because IT'S NOT UNITY-GAIN STABLE, and most audio circuits require that condition. This op-amp is only stable for gains of 2 or higher, as it's intended for video buffering applications. There is no simple way to make it unity-gain stable.
Also, you can't use the THS4032 with +/-15V in a PCB designed for conventional op-amps because it requires specific layout considerations in order to handle those 0.45W of idle dissipation. Furthermore, most PCB layouts designed for conventional audio op-amps just can't handle the 100Mhz bandwidth."
and
"first thing you should do if wanting to mod circuits should be to purchase a decent oscilloscope for a couple of bucks. Analog instrument are nearly for free now a days and that will be your first choice measuring instrument to use if your intention is to modify circuits. Also, you will learn a lot when using such an instrument and also, its very very useful for all electronic developments, error measurements, modifications and services on broken/faulty equipments.
Otherwise all your future works with modifications will newer be verified only estimated by a guessing.
It will do with a scope in the range of 50 to 100 MHz, (best=100MHz) but you dont need a 2 channel scope, but its very convenient to be able to see what is coming in and what is coming out at the same time when measuring."
Not that i understand enough of it, but warnings about how to implement this thing, would like to get the hang of whats that all about...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1659635#post1659635
"I got THS4032 and THS4031.
they sounds good.
extended highs , full mids , well controlled and punchy lows.
The only thing I am not satisfied with is that sound stage is a bit narrow compared with traditional Audio OPAMP."
So many opinions on things. I once decided electronics is too much mathematics for me, so i stopped at basic level. Every once and then,
things like these make me wish i knew more and had some gear.
Covenant
26-04-2009, 18:54
I still think the 4032's are brilliant and have had the lid off my 7520 for a few weeks as a result. Do you know if Tirna have got a working solution yet for the lid clearance we've had?
I don't want to send mine back though as I don't want to go back to the others for a few weeks while the new one comes through:doh:
Yes-I have had the lid on my 7520 for a week.
mwahahaha
26-04-2009, 18:57
Yes-I have had the lid on my 7520 for a week.
Excellent! Now to find a window when I'm not at home to get mine sent off:)
4032s are better than the 4562s in my system by an appreciable ammount.
Sound more cohesive with all elements of the soundstage given equal clarity (and then some), not with emphasis on the vocals like I found the 4562s to have.
Don't get me wrong, over the stock amps they are both so much better, but the 4032 does what the 4562 does, only more of it and better.
Regarding measurements vs percieved sound quality?
Who cares?
If it sounds better, it IS better, musical involvement isn't about datasheet specs, it's something "between the lines" that you can't really quantify.
I don know about measurements from a hole in the ground, just go by my ears.
My €0.02 worth...
This is a hole in the ground, don't want you having any accidents Gary. :)
Quietschbox
26-04-2009, 21:30
Regarding measurements vs percieved sound quality?
Who cares?
If it sounds better, it IS better, musical involvement isn't about datasheet specs, it's something "between the lines" that you can't really quantify.
I don know about measurements from a hole in the ground, just go by my ears.
My €0.02 worth...
"Good" or "better" can be, not always is, quite subjective, personal, misleading.
As well as blindly believing in science and scientists.
Measurements for stability are important IMO, any op-amp with even mild HF ringing is not going to sound identical to any op-amp which is dead stable in the same circuit
Of course this is not suggesting all op-amps which measure stable do sound the same, because they don't.
ReachtheSky
27-04-2009, 00:12
Still waiting for four bmw m5...singels..And they say there is a credit crunch on:eyebrows:
jon
Hi Jon
Where are you planning to use the four M5 singles? Are you modding the 7520 to output separate channels?
Granville
ReachtheSky
27-04-2009, 00:19
Does anyone know how difficult it would be to mod the volume control on the 7520 to make it remote controllable? I guess the pot would need swapping for a motorised one plus I'd need an Ir receiver suitable for controlling the motorised pot, or something like that. Does anyone know of any suitable kit's or parts suitable for the job?
I wonder if Stan is considering remote volume control for the “7530.” It is the first question asked of me by everyone after hearing my 7520!
I wonder if Stan is considering remote volume control for the “7530.” It is the first question raised by everyone after hearing the 7520!
Everyone?
StanleyB
27-04-2009, 09:27
I wonder if Stan is considering remote volume control for the “7530.” It is the first question raised by everyone after hearing the 7520!
Why:confused:? Unless a motorized volume control is used (very expensive), the signal would have to be adjusted through a digital IC. Anyone knows of a digital volume control that is transparent and doesn't degrade the audio signal?
ReachtheSky
27-04-2009, 09:51
Why:confused:? Unless a motorized volume control is used (very expensive).........?
I didn't realise the motorized volume controls were that expensive Stan. Shame because they are very convenient for some of us....have to put our glass down....
Why:confused:? Unless a motorized volume control is used (very expensive), the signal would have to be adjusted through a digital IC. Anyone knows of a digital volume control that is transparent and doesn't degrade the audio signal?
A lot of the digital potentiometers I've seen can only handle very small signals, may clip if on the output of an active out stage.
What about on the output of the dac before the active output?
I've not really tried any of these chips yet but it should be possible to try hardwiring something on vero and trying it out, see how it performs
StanleyB
27-04-2009, 13:04
I've not really tried any of these chips yet but it should be possible to try hardwiring something on vero and trying it out, see how it performs
It does what it says on the can. i.e. it works as a volume control.
It does what it says on the can. i.e. it works as a volume control.
I mean see how it compares sonically against a normal pot
http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2778
HighFidelityGuy
27-04-2009, 14:55
Would this be a suitable motorised pot: LINK (http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Resistors-Potentiometer/Control-Potentiometers/Motorised-20k-dual-gang-rotary-potentiometer/78271/kw/)
It's a 20K log pot. I think the standard pot on the 7520 is 20K as it says 20K on the back but I don't know if it's log or linear.
Would this be a suitable motorised pot: LINK (http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Resistors-Potentiometer/Control-Potentiometers/Motorised-20k-dual-gang-rotary-potentiometer/78271/kw/)
It's a 20K log pot. I think the standard pot on the 7520 is 20K as it says 20K on the back but I don't know if it's log or linear.
Those are quite big, with the control/receiver board its going to take quite a lot of space, I doubt very much it could be used in the existing sized 7520 case
Not that cheap either http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260388227348
HighFidelityGuy
27-04-2009, 15:20
Yeah, I thought they looked a bit big. I think it's mainly the width that will be the problem.
On a different subject; does anyone know what the maximum output voltage is on the fixed and variable outputs on the 7520?
I asked the same question of Mr.B himself. The answer is: "the TC-7520 can output up to 1.8V on the line and the preamp output".
HighFidelityGuy
27-04-2009, 15:45
Thanks Krisbee.
That's odd, I was expecting it to be higher than that on the preamp output as I can't take my volume level much above 1/4 without it being too loud and my power amps are supposed to make maximum power from a 2.3V input. If I go above half volume with no music playing I get odd buzzing sounds from the speakers as though I'm over-powering the power amps input or something. I'll have to investigate further.
Afraid I can't help much with a lot of questions for the dac
Did you get this noise with the original op-amps installed?
HighFidelityGuy
27-04-2009, 18:02
No, I didn't have my power amps when I had the original op-amps installed so this is the first time I've used the variable outputs.
I did some testing when I got home tonight and it seems that I got it a bit wrong, it's not so much a buzzing, it's more of a crackling. Nothing too serious.
I also did some testing with an oscilloscope and got some interesting results.
Using a 50Hz test tone (all I had handy) I'm getting 200mV peak to peak from the variable output when the volume is at approx 1/4. The signal also looks a bit messy.
If I crank the volume up to full, the output goes up to 6V peak to peak. The fixed output is also 6V. At this level the signal looks super clean.
So that would explain why it's really loud for me above 1/4 as my amps are 550W, so even at 200mV they will be kicking out a fair amount of power.
I'll try and put the original op-amp back it to see if this gives the same results.
6v! Crikey thats some output
For general testing I use 1k at 0db http://binkster.net/extras.shtml .
For 50hz the pot may be having some effect on what your seeing on the scope
BTW, can you get get a reading on your scope of this crackling noise?
Another thing, I'd try the original op-amps and then see if you get the crackling
HighFidelityGuy
27-04-2009, 20:46
Ok, I've made a 0dB 1KHz test tone and done some more testing. I get slightly over 6V peak to peak with this on the 4032 op-amp and slightly over 5.5V with the 49720 installed.
I still get lots of fuzz on the waveform at low volumes but with 1KHz I also get some distortion to the peaks as well. This didn't happen on the 50Hz tone. The peaks are getting squared off slightly on the left side. This is on the 4032. The 49720 is even worse. The peaks look almost like a saw-tooth wave. This can't be good.
I'll try the original op-amps next.
Edit: I forgot to mention, I've not managed to get the crackling during testing. This only seems to happen through the amps, so I think it's because they're getting too much voltage. Also, I've noticed another odd problem: While playing the test tones, I sometimes heard a quiet ping come from DAC it's self. When this happend the wave form on the scope glitched like the DAC output was being cut off for a split second. This also can't be good.
Edit 2: For clarification; the squaring of the top of the waveforms didn't just happen at full volume, it was at any volume. So it's not the output clipping I don't think.
HighFidelityGuy
27-04-2009, 21:03
Right, with the original op-amp fitted, I get almost the same shape waveform as with the 4920 but with some extra distortion at full volume, so this is the worst so far. Interestingly I get an almost perfectly smooth waveform from the fixed output, so It seems to be the variable output that is distorting the signal.
I'll do more testing tomorrow night. Let me know if you think of other things for me to try. Oh and I'll try and take some photos of the scope display to make it easier to see what I'm going on about.
Leo 6v P to P is just a smidge over 2v rms ;) The same as 99% of CD players and DAC's ;)
Right, with the original op-amp fitted, I get almost the same shape waveform as with the 4920 but with some extra distortion at full volume, so this is the worst so far. Interestingly I get an almost perfectly smooth waveform from the fixed output, so It seems to be the variable output that is distorting the signal.
I'll do more testing tomorrow night. Let me know if you think of other things for me to try. Oh and I'll try and take some photos of the scope display to make it easier to see what I'm going on about.
If the fixed output is ok but the variable output is clipping at any setting on the pot then the actual op-amp gain may need reducing, should just need a few resistors changing
Leo 6v P to P is just a smidge over 2v rms ;) The same as 99% of CD players and DAC's ;)
Brain fart:mental:
ReachtheSky
28-04-2009, 01:44
Thanks Krisbee.
That's odd, I was expecting it to be higher than that on the preamp output as I can't take my volume level much above 1/4 without it being too loud and my power amps are supposed to make maximum power from a 2.3V input. If I go above half volume with no music playing I get odd buzzing sounds from the speakers as though I'm over-powering the power amps input or something. I'll have to investigate further.
The preamp output from the 7520 at 1.8V is a little less than most CD/DVD players output at about 2.0V.
I’m using the 7520 preamp output into mono block power amps powering B&W801 monitors and I can confirm that it works beautifully. The background is particularly quiet, almost silent at max volume. I suspect you may have a problem elsewhere or a faulty component somewhere?
HighFidelityGuy
28-04-2009, 12:47
Hmm, this is very odd then.
My monoblocks make full power at 2.23V and have an input impedance of 50K Ohms.
I don't know whether that means they are a good or bad match for the 7520's variable output. Does anyone know? :confused:
It should match ok, apart from the crackling noises and measured clipping on the variable output is everything else ok?
HighFidelityGuy
28-04-2009, 14:46
I've not had any similar problems with anything else. If I run the power amps off my AV amp I get plenty of range on the volume control (on the AV amp), no crackle, no pinging noises from the DAC.
I only get issues if I run the power amps directly off the DAC. Also, like I mentioned earlier, the fixed line output gives a clean signal, the variable output is distorted but that's only noticeable on the scope, I can't hear any distortion. It's as if there is something wrong with the volume pot or related circuitry between the op-amp and the variable output.
Any ideas?
As I don't have a 7520 I can't be sure how its run and can only give an idea to try and help.
From what your saying I get the impression the gain of the variable output section is too high and maybe this was highered during production to make it better suited to a wider range of headphones including high impedance ? if the headphone amp part also serves as a line stage then maybe its just too high for some amps input?
If I had this problem I'd lower the gain setting by adjusting the resistors around the op-amp in the variable output section, this would probably eliminate the clipping your getting on the scope and would definitely give a wider range on the vol pot if that makes sense?
Stan should give Leo a 7520 so he can be even more helpful!
Help! Is anyone having this issue? I took out my 7562s and put in the 4032s (new Tirna version). Variable out to my amp sounds fine. But the headphone amp sounds noisy/crappy/distorted thru the first 1/6 rotation (lower volume). I have the 50ohm Sennheiser 595s.
The HPA sounds fine if I... 1) remove the variable out 4032 and leave empty, 2) replace the variable out 4032 w/ the 4562, or3) use a 4562 back on the HPA with a 4032 on the variable out. Both 4032s sound the same (i.e. either works fine alone in the HPA, but as soon as two of them are onboard, the HPA sounds like crap).
Anyone else??? This is a bummer.
I wonder how many people are running it using the same op-amps and not realizing theres a problem if their not using headphones
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