AR The Legend/The Turntable

[twotone]

Hi guys, I bought one of these TTs from the classifieds recently. I wasn't really in the market for a new TT as I was perfectly happy with with a Rega Planar 3 and Denon DL-110 cart.

Anyway spotted the TT for sale and decided to buy it on a complete whim and my God what a difference, the music has simply changed from what i was listening to previously, I am actually stunned at the improvement, the detail, the bass, the soundstage, everything is different.

I have an Arcam FMJ 23T CDP which is fantastic but this TT simply pisses all over it.

And, as for the Rega Planar 3 the difference between both TTS is night and day.

Before I bought this TT my intention was to sell my entire system and start again but I'm now having serious second thoughts about that now.

My system now is the TT with a Denon DL-110 & AT 1120 arm, Proac Studio 140s, the aforementioned Arcam, a Sony TA-F6B integrated and ST-A6B FM Tuner.

I'm thinking the only thing that I'm going to try now is a different cart, at the moment I've the TT hooked up to the MC/Headamp of the Sony amp and it sounds really good to me but I might go for a good MM cart and try the MM phono stage of the Sony.

Grateful for any suggestions to improve things further.

Thanks

Tony

[The Grand Wazoo]

It's a much overlooked and wrongly dismissed turntable Tony and I'm not at all surprised that you're finding it to sound good.
I had a long period of messing about with several incarnations of the AR and this one was the most fully formed, I think.
The thing that people tend to overlook is it's potential to house a really top quality arm and therefore, the sky's the limit with your choice of cartridge. I'm not sure what's on yours, but they always came with something competent. But you can take this a lot further if you feel like it and have the cash.
I had some fun playing with armboard materials (the original is quite thin ply), mats and clamps.

[twotone]

It's a much overlooked and wrongly dismissed turntable Tony and I'm not at all surprised that you're finding it to sound good.
I had a long period of messing about with several incarnations of the AR and this one was the most fully formed, I think.
The thing that people tend to overlook is it's potential to house a really top quality arm and therefore, the sky's the limit with your choice of cartridge. I'm not sure what's on yours, but they always came with something competent. But you can take this a lot further if you feel like it and have the cash.
I had some fun playing with armboard materials (the original is quite thin ply), mats and clamps.

Hi Chris, the arm that came with the TT is an Audio Technica 1120 and there was a cheap AT MM cart on the arm when it arrived however I've since replaced that cart with a Denon DL 110.

The cheap AT cart was fine but I prefer the Denon and the Sony's MC phono stage.

I would be up for changing the arm and selling the current one on as it seems to be a wee bit light for using with heavier carts, they go for about £180 so that would go a bit of way towards a different arm.

I had a look at the Grace arms on a Japanese e-bay shop, these looked nice and had good reviews but I'm up for anything really.

Honestly though the music at the minute is marvelous, I really think that this is the first time I've actually ever really enjoyed vinyl since that was all there was to listen too when I was young:)

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at-1120.shtml

[julesd68]

Tony,

Just googled your Sony amp - looks absolutely gorgeous - I wouldn't be selling that in a hurry if it sounds as good as it looks!

The Proacs have a good enough rep so I would be starting with the Denon cart myself - I'm sure your lovely new AR will sing even more with a top-flight MM.

Do post a pic of the AR when you get a moment ...

[twotone]

Tony,

Just googled your Sony amp - looks absolutely gorgeous - I wouldn't be selling that in a hurry if it sounds as good as it looks!

The Proacs have a good enough rep so I would be starting with the Denon cart myself - I'm sure your lovely new AR will sing even more with a top-flight MM.

Do post a pic of the AR when you get a moment ...

Hi Jules, yeah the Sony Amp is wonderful but it's a bit temperamental to be honest and it's very old. I had it repaired last Sept time, the guy had to repair a circuit board and do some repairs to the PLPS too.

The on/off switch is sticky and sometimes I lose a channel, there seems to be a problem with aux selector switch but a wiggle soon cures the problem.

Also the VU meters need replaced, the joys of old amps:doh:

Yes I was thinking about the Denon being something I could change to make improvements easily.

Here's the Sony amp

Photo 2317 shows the PCB that was repaired.

http://flic.kr/s/aHsjDKSpEr

[julesd68]

hmm, yes you'll want to upgrade the cart soon enough but sounds like a new amp is on the cards aswell ... :(

Got any thoughts on what you'd like to go for?

[DSJR]

If you have the early "The Turntable," chances are you'll have a wobbly main bearing, which will ruin the sonics. If on the other hand your deck is one of the later ones (which I believe were renamed "The Legend"), you'll have a bloody good turntable there.

I'm worried though if it so easily trounces a Planar 3. Better certainly, but both should have a clear, lean and "bouncy" bass, the AR opening wider the aural window in the upper regions.

Should you decide to keep the AR for a long while, I suggest you look at an external supply for it to further improve the running of the motor, a new belt is mandatory and probably a new mat, although I have no idea what would be best. You certainly don't want to heavy up and make the bass all turgid and neither do you want a heavy plate plonked on top of the platter and fugging up the bearing. maybe a Funk, since the legend reminds me of a LPT at its best, quick, clear and delicate when suitably armed and cartridged.

Just take care of arm cable dressing and keep the suspension nice and free :)

[Rare Bird]

'The Legend' were a super sounding deck imho..

[twotone]

hmm, yes you'll want to upgrade the cart soon enough but sounds like a new amp is on the cards aswell ... :(

Got any thoughts on what you'd like to go for?

I've been looking at a rather nice AR 60 integrated Jules, it's been re-capped and looks great but it's very eighties looking and only 35w per channel but it does have a MM phono stage. A

Also I like the look of the Denon PMA 2000 integrateds but those are pretty rare.

Rega Brio-Rs appeal too however I've read some patchy reviews on those, some of them seem to suffer from hum or so I've read?

Which carts would you recommend?


There's some photos of the TT from the original sale thread

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23051



Tony

[Rare Bird]

A&R Cambridge 'A60' a lot of people seem to get Cambridge Audio & Acoustic Research (AR) mixed up with A&R Cambridge!

Anyhoots you'll not go far wrong with an 'A60' nice phonostage but the early ones were discrete (All transistors) later used IC's..

[twotone]

If you have the early "The Turntable," chances are you'll have a wobbly main bearing, which will ruin the sonics. If on the other hand your deck is one of the later ones (which I believe were renamed "The Legend"), you'll have a bloody good turntable there.

I'm worried though if it so easily trounces a Planar 3. Better certainly, but both should have a clear, lean and "bouncy" bass, the AR opening wider the aural window in the upper regions.

Should you decide to keep the AR for a long while, I suggest you look at an external supply for it to further improve the running of the motor, a new belt is mandatory and probably a new mat, although I have no idea what would be best. You certainly don't want to heavy up and make the bass all turgid and neither do you want a heavy plate plonked on top of the platter and fugging up the bearing. maybe a Funk, since the legend reminds me of a LPT at its best, quick, clear and delicate when suitably armed and cartridged.

Just take care of arm cable dressing and keep the suspension nice and free :)

Hi Dave, I think the TT has recently had a new belt and it came with an Inspire Achri mat.

I believe that it's also had the oil renewed recently too.

The main differences to me from both the Planar and the Legend are wider soundstage and bass but not a boomy bass more of 'big' sort of deep bass sound if you know what I mean, bass authority I think is what I mean.

Pretty sure it is a 'Legend' as that was what it was sold as.

On the back it says

Teledyne Acoustic Research

The AR Turntable

Serial no XE 005176

Tony

[DSJR]

All you need to do is clamp up the sub-chassis with the screw. keeping the top platter removed, place palm of your hand evenly on the top-centre of the inner platter and see if it rocks in the bearing if gently pushed down either side. It's quite noticeable if it's there, but the later decks had superb tolerancing and that transformed it for the better! Any suitable oil-fill will minimise any slight play that's left, especially since the platter is so light.

[twotone]

A&R Cambridge 'A60' a lot of people seem to get Cambridge Audio & Acoustic Research (AR) mixed up with A&R Cambridge!

Anyhoots you'll not go far wrong with an 'A60' nice phonostage but the early ones were discrete (All transistors) later used IC's..

This one here André

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=132115

[twotone]

All you need to do is clamp up the sub-chassis with the screw. keeping the top platter removed, place palm of your hand evenly on the top-centre of the inner platter and see if it rocks in the bearing if gently pushed down either side. It's quite noticeable if it's there, but the later decks had superb tolerancing and that transformed it for the better! Any suitable oil-fill will minimise any slight play that's left, especially since the platter is so light.

Thanks. I'll try that out.

Tony

[Rare Bird]

This one here André



Thats it tony, you can pick em up £50-£100.. I prefer the earlier ones with the seperate bottom plate, front & rear aluminium angle iron type facias..These also had thicker heatsinks.. They are all 5 pin Din's on the early models, the really early ones were 2 pin din speaker outlets..

[The Grand Wazoo]

A&R Cambridge 'A60' a lot of people seem to get Cambridge Audio & Acoustic Research (AR) mixed up with A&R Cambridge

Yeah, & it didn't help that Acoustic Research did an amp called the AR A06!

[Rare Bird]

Yeah, & it didn't help that Acoustic Research did an amp called the AR A06!

That's what i thought Tony might have been refering to but wasnt sure as the links don't seem to work he put up..

[twotone]

Thats it tony, you can pick em up £50-£100.. I prefer the earlier ones with the seperate bottom plate, front & rear aluminium angle iron type facias..These also had thicker heatsinks.. They are all 5 pin Din's on the early models, the really early ones were 2 pin din speaker outlets..

Thanks André, my speakers are 89db sensitivity at 8ohms, do you think those amps have enough power to drive the speakers?

BTW, is it easy enough to get din to rca adaptors?


Tony

[Rare Bird]

Yes the Mayware adaptors are still available..it will drive them ok i used an 'A60' for years with Heybrook 'HB1' speeerz which are around 89/90db..

If you want to source a later 'A60' they had RCA for turntable duties, Din's for the rest.. but like i say i prefer the construction of the earlier models..

[julesd68]

I was going to mention it, but looks like you are already on the trail of the A60 on PFM!

It looks absolutely stunning ... I've not heard one for 30 years but cannot see how you could go wrong for just 150 notes. And while you are at it I'd pick up the matching tuner - I had one of these until quite recently - lovely warm tone ...

Keep us posted!

[Mr Kipling]

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ar-turtable-indulgent-or-absolute-necessity.90606

http://vinylnirvana.com started off quite a modest site, but has developed over the years. http://soundofthewood.com looks interesting the quick look I had of it. Both are mentioned in the Steve Hoffman link

[seoirse2002]

Love the AR:)....this is my legend with a Linn LVX and K9 cart....Ive actually now stopped using a mat since I found using another LP as a mathttp://theartofsound.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=122&pictureid=996 makes her sound even better!!!

[twotone]

I was going to mention it, but looks like you are already on the trail of the A60 on PFM!

It looks absolutely stunning ... I've not heard one for 30 years but cannot see how you could go wrong for just 150 notes. And while you are at it I'd pick up the matching tuner - I had one of these until quite recently - lovely warm tone ...

Keep us posted!

Hi Jules, first of all thanks to you and every one else for the advice in this thread.

I've bought the amp on Pinkfish however the seller has offered me a slightly later amp that he has for which he has an optional plug in MC phono card which seems perfect for having the option to use which ever cart I end up going for but I'm a bit unsure now which one to go for, what do you think, any advice in this regard?

Regarding the tuner, yes I have considered buying it but I have the partner tuner for the Sony amp, an ST-A6B and it is a fantastic tuner in great condition which has been re-capped recently but it could easily be sold along with the amp.

Tony


http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-ST-A6B.html

[twotone]

Yes the Mayware adaptors are still available..it will drive them ok i used an 'A60' for years with Heybrook 'HB1' speeerz which are around 89/90db..

If you want to source a later 'A60' they had RCA for turntable duties, Din's for the rest.. but like i say i prefer the construction of the earlier models..

Thanks André, the seller of the amp is going to include one of those with the amp but obviously I'll need some more for the tuner and the CDP but they're not expensive, thankfully :cool:

Tony

[julesd68]

Great news Tony.

Me personally I would buy the earlier amp for sure. Before having a play with MC carts I would choose a really good MM cart and also get a new amp. When the time comes you'll be much better off buying a good SUT to work with the MM input instead of using an internal MC stage. Just my opinion of course!

[twotone]

Great news Tony.

Me personally I would buy the earlier amp for sure. Before having a play with MC carts I would choose a really good MM cart and also get a new amp. When the time comes you'll be much better off buying a good SUT to work with the MM input instead of using an internal MC stage. Just my opinion of course!

Thanks Jules, I'm going to take your advice mate:eek:

Now, regarding good MM carts, anyone have any opinion's thoughts?

Thanks

Tony

[walpurgis]

Hope I'm not being rude about anyone's amplifier, but I've owned a couple of A&R Cambridge A60 integrateds and not been impressed.

I found them much in the same mould as the NAD 3020, inoffensive maybe, but a bit two dimensional and bland, they were over-hyped, maybe because they were a safe recommendation for the magazines back then.

There are better options (like Andre's Ferrograph F307 for instance). A nice seventies Rotel RA-611 would be a far better sounding choice or maybe a Denon PMA-250SE? An original Cambridge P50 is a classic British integrated and still sounds remarkably good even now, in a different league to the A60.

[twotone]

Hope I'm not being rude about anyone's amplifier, but I've owned a couple of A&R Cambridge A60 integrateds and not been impressed.

I found them much in the same mould as the NAD 3020, inoffensive maybe, but a bit two dimensional and bland, they were over-hyped, maybe because they were a safe recommendation for the magazines back then.

There are better options (like Andre's Ferrograph F307 for instance). A nice seventies Rotel RA-611 would be a far better sounding choice or maybe a Denon PMA-250SE? An original Cambridge P50 is a classic British integrated and still sounds remarkably good even now, in a different league to the A60.

Hi Geoff, all comments are welcome mate.

I'll try the amp out but if it doesn't suit me I'll just sell it on:eyebrows:

Thanks

Tony

[julesd68]

My memory of the A60 is that its presentation was definitely on the "polite" side but still a quality performer IMO ...

At the end of the day I think it will boil down to system matching as usual. The Proacs are fairly lively performers I believe. I reckon with a careful choice of cart you'll get a good result.

Geoff - do you think one of those ADC carts could be a good bet for Tony?

I loved all my Nagaoka MM carts but don't think I would recommend one to go with the A60 - you might want something with a bit more "zip" ...

Will have a think ...

[wee tam]

hi tony , glad you are enjoying her , yes chaps most definately , a legend and not the earlier "turntable" and yes oiil / belt all new , no pay in the bearing etc , yes the AT arm is a bit "light" but can have a grub screw added (rear of arm 4mm threaded) to balance things out for heavier carts , cable is plug in /repacable , (it has a linn cable fitted , they are hugely upgradeable , but my megre funds did not allow :( but as i have an original "turntable" this is where i am going when funds allow , carts tony , mm grado , or goldring 1042 :) , i knew the cheap AT was a bit bright , but from what i've heard the goldring should fit the bill nicely .

[Macca]

Hope I'm not being rude about anyone's amplifier, but I've owned a couple of A&R Cambridge A60 integrateds and not been impressed.

I found them much in the same mould as the NAD 3020, inoffensive maybe, but a bit two dimensional and bland, they were over-hyped, maybe because they were a safe recommendation for the magazines back then.

There are better options (like Andre's Ferrograph F307 for instance). A nice seventies Rotel RA-611 would be a far better sounding choice or maybe a Denon PMA-250SE? An original Cambridge P50 is a classic British integrated and still sounds remarkably good even now, in a different league to the A60.

Well I have had the NAD, the A60 and several Denon PMA250 over the years and I would say you couldn't put a fag paper between them except for the phono stages - The A60 has a better MM phono than the NAD or the Denon - unless you mean the original PMA250 MK1 UK special edition which blows them all away. But just try finding one of those.

[julesd68]

Tony, what's your budget for the cart?

[twotone]

Tony, what's your budget for the cart?

Hi Jules, I've got the Denon to sell which is probably worth about £50 or so, so I could maybe go up to about £200 in total.

Had a look at the Goldring 1042 which comes in about £230 so could maybe stretch to that but obviously a low hours second hand one would be better.

BTW, I had a Grado MI cart that came with Planar 3 but I sold that on as I wasn't impressed with it, think it was a platinum if I remember correctly.

Thanks

Tony

[julesd68]

I am sure you know all the usual suspects but here's something interesting - a Shelter 201. They are known for all their top flight MC's but if you google this one you can find some user reviews with very happy owners ... List price is £200 but there's a few left here for £125 which is about the same price as importing one from Hong Kong ...

http://www.soundhifi.com/shelter.html

I reckon it would be a great cart, the only question being just how much better than the Denon ...

[twotone]

I am sure you know all the usual suspects but here's something interesting - a Shelter 201. They are known for all their top flight MC's but if you google this one you can find some user reviews with very happy owners ... List price is £200 but there's a few left here for £125 which is about the same price as importing one from Hong Kong ...

http://www.soundhifi.com/shelter.html

I reckon it would be a great cart, the only question being just how much better than the Denon ...

Thanks again Jules, reading that the shelter is actually a Sumiko Pearl which is half the price:eyebrows:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sumiko-Black-Pearl-MM-Cartridge-in-Spherical-Stylus-Black-Pearl-Spare-Stylus-/370625832921?pt=US_Record_Player_Turntable_Parts&hash=item564b0567d9

[Rare Bird]

There are better options (like Andre's Ferrograph F307 for instance). A nice seventies Rotel RA-611 would be a far better sounding choice or maybe a Denon PMA-250SE? An original Cambridge P50 is a classic British integrated and still sounds remarkably good even now, in a different league to the A60.

Hi Geoff
The Ferrograph amp needs a lot of work doing on it, especially the socketry on the rear, as you'll know the insert fixing centres are not 3/4'' centres like today's amps they are more 5/8'' hence they need small diameter barrel phono plugs like the old SME plugs, they also need to be long pins too again like the original SME's..

I prefer the old Trio 'KA2000' over the 'RA611' !

I still like the 'A60'

[julesd68]

Thanks again Jules, reading that the shelter is actually a Sumiko Pearl which is half the price:eyebrows:

Interesting! Just been reading a thread here on it ...

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1179255774&openfrom&1&4

Seems that the body is the same but stylus assembly is slightly different ...

[walpurgis]

Interesting! Just been reading a thread here on it ...

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1179255774&openfrom&1&4

Seems that the body is the same but stylus assembly is slightly different ...

Have a look at the Clearaudio MMs. They are from the same factory too!

[walpurgis]

Hi Geoff
The Ferrograph amp needs a lot of work doing on it, especially the socketry on the rear, as you'll know the insert fixing centres are not 3/4'' centres like today's amps they are more 5/8'' hence they need small diameter barrel phono plugs like the old SME plugs, they also need to be long pins too again like the original SME's..

I prefer the old Trio 'KA2000' over the 'RA611' !

I still like the 'A60'

Yes the Trio is very special. Sounds similar to the original Sugden A21. The RA-611 is pretty good though, it's not long since I sold my last one.

[julesd68]

I notice that there are plenty of ADC carts on ebay Geoff, if you import from the US - which are the models to look for?

[Rare Bird]

Yes the Trio is very special. Sounds similar to the original Sugden A21.

Ive been looking for a minto Richard Allen class 'A' jobbie for sometime now but no joy.. I have quite a few late 60's brown faced Trio amps.. I love the cheap & cheerful 'KA2000' but prefer my Trio 'TK150T' germanium version of the '2000' just sounds more earthy :D

[Jonboy]

Love the AR:)....this is my legend with a Linn LVX and K9 cart....Ive actually now stopped using a mat since I found using another LP as a mathttp://theartofsound.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=122&pictureid=996 makes her sound even better!!!


I have the exact same set up, great sounding tt's, what do you think is the top end for a cartridge for this arm as i have just got another one of these arms sitting here waiting to go on my Lenco when i get the spare time to fiddle, got to finish my extension and fit a kitchen first :(

[Rare Bird]

I have the exact same set up, great sounding tt's, what do you think is the top end for a cartridge for this arm as i have just got another one of these arms sitting here waiting to go on my Lenco when i get the spare time to fiddle, got to finish my extension and fit a kitchen first :(

Jon: if i remember the Mission '774LC' was the upgrade arm but to be honest i never saw the improvement! I have fitted a Zeta arm to one, fantastic but ive also use the original Mission '774' low mass arm that really made this deck sing IMHO.. I'm a low mass freak anyway :eyebrows:

[Jonboy]

Ive been looking for a minto Richard Allen class 'A' jobbie for sometime now but no joy.. I have quite a few late 60's brown faced Trio amps.. I love the cheap & cheerful 'KA2000' but prefer my Trio 'TK150T' germanium version of the '2000' just sounds more earthy :D

hopefully going to the Audio Jumble so i will keep my eye out for you just tell me your budget

[Rare Bird]

Not sure what they go for but it's imperative it's minto :eyebrows:

[Rare Bird]

tbh Geoff. I have a 1970 Panasonic 'SA73' Amp, apart from the slider controls it's sounds utterly fantastic but they are like hens teeth these days.. :eyebrows:

[seoirse2002]

Hi guys, I bought one of these TTs from the classifieds recently. I wasn't really in the market for a new TT as I was perfectly happy with with a Rega Planar 3 and Denon DL-110 cart.

Anyway spotted the TT for sale and decided to buy it on a complete whim and my God what a difference, the music has simply changed from what i was listening to previously, I am actually stunned at the improvement, the detail, the bass, the soundstage, everything is different.

I have an Arcam FMJ 23T CDP which is fantastic but this TT simply pisses all over it.

And, as for the Rega Planar 3 the difference between both TTS is night and day.

Before I bought this TT my intention was to sell my entire system and start again but I'm now having serious second thoughts about that now.

My system now is the TT with a Denon DL-110 & AT 1120 arm, Proac Studio 140s, the aforementioned Arcam, a Sony TA-F6B integrated and ST-A6B FM Tuner.

I'm thinking the only thing that I'm going to try now is a different cart, at the moment I've the TT hooked up to the MC/Headamp of the Sony amp and it sounds really good to me but I might go for a good MM cart and try the MM phono stage of the Sony.

Grateful for any suggestions to improve things further.

Thanks

Tony

The best cart I have ever used with mine was a Glanz MFG 51L if you can find one( I still have one)....I saw the model above MFG71L sell for over £250 on the bay recently...look here:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390507274513?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch% 2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D39050 7274513%26_rdc%3D1.........you will also find details of the 51L in his listing and not a huge difference spec wise

[The Grand Wazoo]

Like Andre, I had my Zeta on the last AR I owned. I was using a Koetsu Black in it.

[Rare Bird]

Thats it Chris real good combo.. I did have a Supex '900' at the time but couldnt afford to get it re-tipped.. I think i was using a Nagaoka 'MP50' with it ! always like Nags so wasnt that much put off, sounded superb all the same..

[Rare Bird]

Yes the Trio is very special. Sounds similar to the original Sugden A21. The RA-611 is pretty good though, it's not long since I sold my last one.


I have loads of crap in my lock up i can't part with cos they aint really crap! i only buy stuuf mint box for investment wise :) Here's a quick few photos, i have bits stashed orl over the place. :lol:


http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/Picture049.jpg

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/Picture050.jpg

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/Picture052.jpg

[Macca]

Not often that we get to see pictures of Andre's 'private collection':stalks::eek:

[Rare Bird]

You aint seen nothing but me feet were cold downstais couldnt find my slippers :lol:

[walpurgis]

I notice that there are plenty of ADC carts on ebay Geoff, if you import from the US - which are the models to look for?

Well, the ADC 25 and 26 are lovely, but finding an arm they work in is tricky, it has to be very low mass. My 26 just about copes with being used in a Mission 774.

I'd suggest you might get away with using the ADC 10E Mk.II, the 10E Mk.IV and the XLM III, in lowish to medium mass arms (the original XLM is too compliant). They certainly work in the Ittok and my 774.

The 10E Mk. II is superb, but very rare these days, certainly in the UK. In all likelihood you will probably find the 10E Mk. IV and the XLM III the easiest to track down and very nice they are too. The XLM II and the VLM are decent, but not as good, some people swear by the ZLM, but I've not heard one.

[twotone]

Well, the ADC 25 and 26 are lovely, but finding an arm they work in is tricky, it has to be very low mass. My 26 just about copes with being used in a Mission 774.

I'd suggest you might get away with using the ADC 10E Mk.II, the 10E Mk.IV and the XLM III, in lowish to medium mass arms (the original XLM is too compliant). They certainly work in the Ittok and my 774.

The 10E Mk. II is superb, but very rare these days, certainly in the UK. In all likelihood you will probably find the 10E Mk. IV and the XLM III the easiest to track down and very nice they are too The XLM II and the VLM are nice but not as good, some people swear by the ZLM, but I've not heard one.

What about my arm, the AT 1120, this is a low compliance arm isn't ?

[Rare Bird]

My Mayware just copes with the '26', my old 'Transcriptors 'Fluid Arm' was slightly better, must have been around 4grm.. Ive worked very hard on the Mayware to get my ADC '26' working optimum, i've removed the Mass ring from the arm, the next move is to take away the original armtube, replace it with a carbon fibre alternative. This should give a more rigid tube but at a lot more less weight, could be the lowest mass arm on earth who knows!! But i'd like to work on the headshell, maybe like the Funk 'FXR'

[Floyddroid]

Nice kit:lol:

[Rare Bird]

You been on the pop steve? :D

[twotone]

Anyone know anything about these carts, worth a punt?

Bit heavy for my arm at 6.5g but should be okay.

The seller is a dealer on PFM.

Tony

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130841263975?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

[twotone]

Ortofon made


Thanks, yes spotted that.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-192031.html

[julesd68]

Benz Micro that may be of interest ...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Benz-Micro-Ace-high-output-moving-coil-cartridge-/271145801863?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3f218c9887

[twotone]

Benz Micro that may be of interest ...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Benz-Micro-Ace-high-output-moving-coil-cartridge-/271145801863?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item3f218c9887

Thanks but I bought the older A60 amp with the MM phono stage:)

[julesd68]

That Benz is a high-output moving coil like the DL110 so should work fine with the MM input ...

[Rare Bird]

Thanks but I bought the older A60 amp with the MM phono stage:) There was an A&R 'HA10' head amp for the 'A60' if you wanna use low output MC.

[Jonboy]

Jon
I think your posting on the wrong thread

oops i havn't even had a drink

[Rare Bird]

:rfl: Too much excitement i recon :eyebrows:

[Jonboy]

all gone now, what a knob head

[twotone]

That Benz is a high-output moving coil like the DL110 so should work fine with the MM input ...

Oh right, thanks:cool:

[twotone]

There was an A&R 'HA10' head amp for the 'A60' if you wanna use low output MC.


Yeah, the amp seller gave me all of the details André

They sell for about £40 on e-bay occasionally apparently

I was really torn (well not that torn:D) between both amps, the later one came with a plug in MC phono card but I decided to go for the older amp and stick to MM carts for the minute.

I was offered the choice of covers for the amp, teaktastic or plain black. I opted for the plain black and should have the amp on Wednesday:cool:

[julesd68]

That was the nicest teak sleeve I've ever seen on an A60!! :eek:
If the colours were accurate that is ...

Plus, much easier to sell with the teak sleeve if you don't get on with the A60 - quick, get it swapped mate sharpish!!!

[Rare Bird]

Tony:
The good thing about the A&R 'HA10' was you could power it from the captive Din lead or seperate PSU. Other small units worth considering was the Lentek & Rogers 'MCP-100' battery units.

[twotone]

That was the nicest teak sleeve I've ever seen on an A60!! :eek:
If the colours were accurate that is ...

Plus, much easier to sell with the teak sleeve if you don't get on with the A60 - quick, get it swapped mate sharpish!!!

Too late mate it's in the post:doh:

Yeah I thought the teac sleeve would make it easier to sell on but I thought it looked pish:eek:

Actually the plain black sleeve is in great condition for a 30 year old amp, the seller seems to dabble in these amps, certainly knows his stuff that's for sure.

Nice guy too BTW

[twotone]

Tony:
The good thing about the A&R 'HA10' was you could power it from the captive Din lead or seperate PSU. Other small units worth considering was the Lentek & Rogers 'MCP-100' battery units.

Thanks André, I'll keep an eye out for one of those on e-bay. I checked out the sold listings and there were a couple sold recently for about £35 or so.

The amp seller said he'll keep an eye out for me too:)

[walpurgis]

What about my arm, the AT 1120, this is a low compliance arm isn't ?

Yes, the AT 1120 should be fine. it has pretty low mass and was designed for high compliance cartridges. If I remember correctly, it has a fluid damping facility which should allow it to be used with low compliance cartridges too. rather like my Mission 774, which is very versatile.

[Rare Bird]

Yeh same as the Signet 'XK35'..Tis a low mass arm around 5grm-ish

[twotone]

Thanks guys, I'm 'watching' that Benz cart on e-bay but it will probably go for stupid money.

Those Shure V15 or whatever carts look the business, are they too old now or are they worth buying?

BTW, I bought a set of digital scales how do I weigh the tracking force, do I just put the stylus on the scales and have the scales set at the same height as the LP?

Thanks

Tony

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shure-V15-Type-III-M-M-Cartridge-Boxed-with-Shure-stylus-/290850685096?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43b80d40a8

[DSJR]

The V15 III is today a bit of a marmite cartridge and it's SO easy to get it sounding hard toned and flat in perspective. It doesn't have to sound as bad as this, but it can do very easily. I tend to keep gravitating to my ancient ADC's, not the silly compliance ones, but the XLM III, ZLM, Phase IV (the best all-round and most modern of them all I feel) just make the reproduced music so enjoyable.

Tonearms for the Legend? The best you can afford I reckon. A Linn LVX isn't as good as a good-nick straight-arm Jelco IMO although a good surviving Basik Plus (with decent working counterweight insert) is tons better IMO, although they weren't durably made and many have been abused at 30 years or so old...... I have a sneaky suspicion that the SME 9" M2 model would be a fine choice as well, although this is only opinion rather than experience. Since I get dumped on by Mr Dunn every time I mention the "R" word, I should briefly suggest the better versions of their arms may make an interesting, durable and utterly consistent weight match to the suspension as well, since the popular cheap ones worked so well as I recall from years ago.

[julesd68]

the seller seems to dabble in these amps, certainly knows his stuff that's for sure.

Was reading a thread about your amp on PFM which your selling was posting on - you're right - this dude seems to be an A60 authority so I'm sure you've got one of the best examples ...

Has it arrived yet??

[twotone]

Was reading a thread about your amp on PFM which your selling was posting on - you're right - this dude seems to be an A60 authority so I'm sure you've got one of the best examples ...

Has it arrived yet??

Just arrived, I'm just about to open the packaging:eyebrows:

Right just hooked the amp up and connected the turntable to it, first impressions are very very good indeed. The amp is in amazing condition for an 1981 amp but the seller told me there that he's practically rebuilt it. He' said it's basically a Naim nait.

I'm using a first or second press of Transformer (Walk on the Wild side) as a reference track and this amp sounds much more musical than the Sony, cymbals are more clear as are vocals and the bass is just as good as it was on the Sony when I first hooked up the turntable on receiving it last week.

Piano sounds very lifelike.

Think I might have found a keeper here.

Tony

[julesd68]

I'd be worried if it sounds like a Naim Nait - yuk! I'm sure it's much more refined ... :eyebrows:

Good to hear it is hitting the mark - let us know when you've spent some more time getting to know it ...

Did you see the matching tuner in the AOS classifieds?? Black finish!

[twotone]

I'd be worried if it sounds like a Naim Nait - yuk! I'm sure it's much more refined ... :eyebrows:

Good to hear it is hitting the mark - let us know when you've spent some more time getting to know it ...

Did you see the matching tuner in the AOS classifieds?? Black finish!

I've got Norah Jones (first album) on right now and the amp does sound really refined. With the Sony her vocals sounded really 'shouty' a bit painful to be honest but not now, fantastic with loads of clarity on the top, I can hear the brush strokes which sound just right.

My previous set up was a Sugden A21aP and Croft Basic pre with phono stage, this A&R sounds much sweeter to me than that set up, I've also had a Sugden A21a integrated too but the A60 is at least as good if not better to my ears.

Mind you I didn't have the current turntable with those other amps.

Not seen the tuner on AOS yet but Richard, the guy I bought the amp from, has offered me one that he's about to re-build:cool: I might just take him up on his offer.

Tony

PS, Jules you got a link to that tuner? Thanks

[julesd68]

Result! :champagne:

I'm sure it makes all the difference that yours is "pimped" by an A60 afficionado ...

Hopefully you'll find a new cart you like and push its performance even further!

[julesd68]

Forgot to give you that link - you need to scroll down to see the tuner ...

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23528

[twotone]

Forgot to give you that link - you need to scroll down to see the tuner ...

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23528

Thanks Jules, the tuner from Richard is quite a bit more expensive than the on in the link but I would buy the re-built one in a heartbeat.

Looks like a Creek T40 tuner BTW, had one of those quiet nice.

Big problem I have is that the Sony is a fantastic tuner and it's just been re-capped, cost me £140 for the work.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-ST-A6B.html

[twotone]

The V15 III is today a bit of a marmite cartridge and it's SO easy to get it sounding hard toned and flat in perspective. It doesn't have to sound as bad as this, but it can do very easily. I tend to keep gravitating to my ancient ADC's, not the silly compliance ones, but the XLM III, ZLM, Phase IV (the best all-round and most modern of them all I feel) just make the reproduced music so enjoyable.

Tonearms for the Legend? The best you can afford I reckon. A Linn LVX isn't as good as a good-nick straight-arm Jelco IMO although a good surviving Basik Plus (with decent working counterweight insert) is tons better IMO, although they weren't durably made and many have been abused at 30 years or so old...... I have a sneaky suspicion that the SME 9" M2 model would be a fine choice as well, although this is only opinion rather than experience. Since I get dumped on by Mr Dunn every time I mention the "R" word, I should briefly suggest the better versions of their arms may make an interesting, durable and utterly consistent weight match to the suspension as well, since the popular cheap ones worked so well as I recall from years ago.

Thanks Dave, I've had a look at the Sumiko carts, pearl and black pearl at less that £70 and I've a bid on that Shure V15iii, might buy it if i can get it for cheap sub £100 or so.

I've seen recent completed listings for my tonearm which are around the £180 mark.

So that would give me a bit to play with, quite like the S type of arms but I think I'm going to stick to an SME mount which is what the current arm is. Also think I want an arm with a detachable head shell.

Quite like the look of this arm below and the AT cart, what do you think?

Tony

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111006117624?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audio-Technica-440-MLa-AT440MLa-Cartridge-NEW-/200510424954?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eaf5a477a

[julesd68]

Tony - I think you are going to have to try and find a low hours used cart to get a significant upgrade from your Denon unless you up your budget for a new one - something like the AT440 is more than likely a side-ways move ..

[twotone]

Tony - I think you are going to have to try and find a low hours used cart to get a significant upgrade from your Denon unless you up your budget for a new one - something like the AT440 is more than likely a side-ways move ..

Sound advice Jules, I like the Denon but...:eek:

That Benz, what can I expect to pay do you think?

Which carts are a significant upgrade Jules?

The Denon is about £150 new so presumably something in the £250 range new or £150 used, am I correct?

[julesd68]

Not sure - cheapest retail new is around £500.

I wouldn't go crazy on it since there's no guarantee what kind of hours it has done ...

[DSJR]

Quite like the look of this arm below and the AT cart, what do you think?

Tony

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111006117624?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Audio-Technica-440-MLa-AT440MLa-Cartridge-NEW-/200510424954?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2eaf5a477a

Those old solid SME's are a very safe choice, since with a more modern headshell (or even a newer type SME S2 with thicker metal or the older one with blac-tac filling in the void between cartridge and shell) they come into their own with modern cartridges. Worth a re-wire as they're over 40 years old (I think mine has a Pro-Ject re-wire kit in it plus original earth wire inside), but Johnnie (Audio Origami) should be able to advise on the best route to take, as well as cleaning and re-setting the horizontal bearings, which used to be set for rather too much (admittedly vertical so sort-of gravity loaded) slop.

[twotone]

Those old solid SME's are a very safe choice, since with a more modern headshell (or even a newer type SME S2 with thicker metal or the older one with blac-tac filling in the void between cartridge and shell) they come into their own with modern cartridges. Worth a re-wire as they're over 40 years old (I think mine has a Pro-Ject re-wire kit in it plus original earth wire inside), but Johnnie (Audio Origami) should be able to advise on the best route to take, as well as cleaning and re-setting the horizontal bearings, which used to be set for rather too much (admittedly vertical so sort-of gravity loaded) slop.

Hi Dave, thanks again for the advice, it's really appreciated.

Spotted this arm below, looks nice. How much would something like this go for do you think, £180ish?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281057564081?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

http://www.analogue-classics.com/html/sme_3009___3012.html

[twotone]

Right guys I've put a bid on this arm :eek:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281057564081?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

[DSJR]

Good luck! If you win it and wish to retain the later wiring arrangement, may I have first dibs on the SME cable, or at least the plug on the exit lead, since I really could do with one for my SME which is pretty complete otherwise.

[Dingdong]

If yer looking for a 3009 I've got one that was going on ebay in the near future. Rewired with vdH mss7 and with a new rubber coupling for the counterweight. Could be open to an offer to save me the hassle of ebay.

[fordy]

Tony:
The good thing about the A&R 'HA10' was you could power it from the captive Din lead or seperate PSU. Other small units worth considering was the Lentek & Rogers 'MCP-100' battery units.

I've got one of these HA-10 head amps and it has the wall wart psu for it too. I recapped it with some Pana FC's and its really rather good. Best bit is the adjustable loading inside. Versatile bit of kit.

[julesd68]

How are you getting on with the A60 Tony, now you've had a few days to play?

Also, I was recommended considering the wooden-bodied Grados recently when I was looking for an MM myself. This looks interesting at £240 new -

http://www.analogueseduction.net/grado-cartridges-and-stylus-replacements/grado-reference-platinum-phono-cartridge.html

Review -

http://www.gradolabs.com/page_reviews_detail.php?review=87

[twotone]

Good luck! If you win it and wish to retain the later wiring arrangement, may I have first dibs on the SME cable, or at least the plug on the exit lead, since I really could do with one for my SME which is pretty complete otherwise.

Certainly David :cool:

[twotone]

If yer looking for a 3009 I've got one that was going on ebay in the near future. Rewired with vdH mss7 and with a new rubber coupling for the counterweight. Could be open to an offer to save me the hassle of ebay.

Yes, I am looking for a replacement arm, SME, Jelco, poss Rega.

I've put an offer on the e-bay one (I'm currently the highest bidder) which expires tomorrow.

I would prefer a series 2 3009 (pre 1973 I think) not an 'improved'.

Which version is yours?

Thanks

Tony

[twotone]

I've got one of these HA-10 head amps and it has the wall wart psu for it too. I recapped it with some Pana FC's and its really rather good. Best bit is the adjustable loading inside. Versatile bit of kit.

Thanks :cool:

[twotone]

How are you getting on with the A60 Tony, now you've had a few days to play?

Also, I was recommended considering the wooden-bodied Grados recently when I was looking for an MM myself. This looks interesting at £240 new -

http://www.analogueseduction.net/grado-cartridges-and-stylus-replacements/grado-reference-platinum-phono-cartridge.html

Review -

http://www.gradolabs.com/page_reviews_detail.php?review=87

Hi Jules, I've just got round to connecting it up to my system this afternoon as I was waiting on three DIN to RCA connectors turning up in the post.

Have to say that the amp is really really musical.

I've checked it out with my tuner (R3 Jazz music requests right now) and it sounds wonderful, like wise with the CDP although I did detect a wee bit of sibilance last night on a vinyl recording of Nina Simone At Town Hall (this is a re-issue).

The amp is fantastic with jazz BTW. One of the things I did notice though is that it sounds pretty loud with the CP player at min volume setting but it's not mad loud, I can get the level just about correct but the volume control is about 1pm or just after twelve noon.

The CDP is connected to the AUX input and I have my TV connected to the Tape input and the other two (TT & tuner) go where they were designed to go and sound ok at low volume levels.

The tuner is at about two pm however I can use the tuner's volume control on the indirect inputs if I have to, to control the volume but I prefer to use the direct inputs.

Thanks for the cart links, I'll have a look.

BTW, that Shure cart is sitting at about £75 with about two hours to go, worth a punt?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290850685096?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649

Here's another nice SME arm I'm watching, the seller ballsed up his original advert but someone has put him right re the version of the arm.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390536039540?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

[julesd68]

Did you manage to get that Benz cart Tony?

[twotone]

Did you manage to get that Benz cart Tony?

Nah, I took your advice, it went for £236 plus £7 postage.

The SME arm auction is about to finish but I'm not going to bid anymore, it's currently at £204 plus postage, too expensive I think.

I'm not in any rush, going to try and buy a cart first and take it from there.

Quite like the reviews that those Garrot 77 carts get, see there's one on the forum but the seller's gone missing seemingly:doh:

Tony

[DSJR]

Why not try to get an old A&R P77 and have a new EsCo (Paratrace?) stylus fitted? The styli are around £75 and the original P77 bodies were toleranced for channel balance over the other two related models.

[twotone]

Why not try to get an old A&R P77 and have a new EsCo (Paratrace?) stylus fitted? The styli are around £75 and the original P77 bodies were toleranced for channel balance over the other two related models.

Sounds like a plan Dave, thanks.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-R-Cambridge-P77-Moving-Magnet-Cartridge-/170984816497?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item27cf7d3f71

BTW, that arm went for £260 plus £15 postage.

Tony

[julesd68]

The Garrott P77i is an A-W-E-S-O-M-E cart. :eek:

I recently acquired one as I felt it was even better than my much loved Nagaoka MP-50 - did everything as well as the MP-50 but is just a touch ballsier and more dynamic.

Here's the science -

http://www.garrottbrothers.com/p77i.html

I bought mine with just a few hours on from Vic at Trans-fi Audio. Don't know if this was his personal cart or whether he distributes them over here, so would be worth dropping him a line. You might end up having to buy on-line from Australia but that shouldn't be a problem.

[twotone]

Hi Jules, had a look at the new prices on Australian websites, bit pricy at 500 au$, roughly £350 so will need to try and take up Dave's suggestion or find a good second hand cart hopefully.

I've a bid on a A&R cart at the minute.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170984816497?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649

I got the Hunky Dory album BTW, third press I believe @ £54 posted, the guy had it advertised at £80 plus postage.

http://www.bowie-collection.de/70_74.htm

[Rare Bird]

I have a 'P77' here i hate it

[DSJR]

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but wouldn't it be funny if EsCo didn't actually make the styli for it.. I can't remember if Garrott still make the styli from scratch (s'cuse the pun) as I understand they used to.. The body certainly looks the same as the Sumiko/A&R etc etc generic one made for decades now...

[twotone]

I have a 'P77' here i hate it

An A&R or Garrot Andre?

[twotone]

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but wouldn't it be funny if EsCo didn't actually make the styli for it.. I can't remember if Garrott still make the styli from scratch (s'cuse the pun) as I understand they used to.. The body certainly looks the same as the Sumiko/A&R etc etc generic one made for decades now...

No worries Dave, I'm only hanging on by the skin of my teeth so unless I want to up my bid I doubt I'll get it.

They usually only go for about £35 or so.

[Rare Bird]

An A&R or Garrot Andre?

A&R

[wee tam]

seconded with andre , i have a p77 laying around , does not sound good at all

[twotone]

Thanks guys.

:smoking: