View Full Version : BP 'Ultimate Diesel' and oil/fuel-enhancing treatments for cars
Guys, do any of you use one or both of the above in your cars? If not, and you can, then I recommend that you do...........
I say this because recently I bought a new car: a 2007 Mercedes C320 Avantgarde SE CDI (as shown in my avatar), with 65k miles on the clock (near-mint), and with 225 BHP on tap and top speed of 150mph, it goes like shit off a shovel!
However, when I bought it, I was aware that it was due for a service, as a result of being informed of such by the car's computer, and also the dealer whom I bought the car from. Now when I take my cars for a service, I don't waste money taking them to one of the manufacturer's garages, which is especially pertinent when you're driving a Merc, as the costs of doing so can be horrendous (!); I take them to my local trusted (and very capable) local mechanic.
The car I have uses nearly 9 litres of oil, and I want the best, so I use Castrol Edge 5W-30 fully synthetic diesel oil. Therefore, I searched on-line and managed to get 9 litres of the above oil, and an oil filter, for £85 delivered, and gave it to the mechanic to use. He charged me £50 for the oil change and service, including resetting the computer, so that the service warning indicators were defeated. Not bad for a total of £135!
Now, the car was going superbly well before the service, but after it, it was much smoother again, and *really* responsive!! :eek: Goodness knows what sort of crap oil was in it before, or what kind of condition it was in. However, the 'piece de resistance' was still to come....
I'd long wondered if, just like in hi-fi between equipment made by the same manufacturer, there would be a similar 'synergy' between certain types of fuel and oil. Therefore, as BP and Castrol oils are related, I decided to see if filling my (almost empty fuel tank) with BP 'Ultimate Diesel' (for info, see here: http://www.bp.com/subsection.do?categoryId=9011882&contentId=7022626) would result in even greater performance than I was already getting from simply using whatever diesel was supplied at Asda filling stations, and particularly after reading about how good BP 'Ultimate Diesel' supposedly was in a motoring magazine, due to its higher cetane level.
Then, in an attempt to maximise things further, I bought a bottle of Millers Diesel Power Ecomax fuel treatment, from Halfords (see here for info: http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_37 0465_langId_-1_categoryId_255221), which is claimed to boost the cetane level of diesel fuel by a further four numbers, and poured a can of Wynns Super Charge oil treatment into the oil tank (detailed here: http://www.wynnoil.co.uk/products-wynns-oil-super-charge-oil-treatment.htm). Then I went for a 20-mile drive...
Well, all I can say is BLOODY HELL!! :wow:
The cumulative effect of the above has really optimised the performance of my car's engine. Acceleration and power have improved notably, such that 0-60mph, although I haven't actually tested the 'before and after', definitely seems quicker. The 'vroom factor' and bottom end torque have most certainly improved, as indeed has smoothness, which is now as silky as a very silky thing, and engine noise has noticeably reduced.
All in all, the combination of Castrol Edge 5W-30 fully synthetic oil/Wynns Super Charge oil treatment/ Millers Diesel Power Ecomax, with the superb BP 'Ultimate Diesel' has proved to be a revelation, and as such I would recommend (especially the latter) to anyone with a diesel car who cares about obtaining maximum performance from the engine.
Consequently, I shall be using all of the above from now on as a matter of course. Highly recommended, especially for 'petrol heads' seeking to eke out the last drop of performance from their cars!! :hotrod:
Marco.
Whilst I'm not questioning your findings you are comparing to asda diesel, which whilst cheap, is second in the make your engine run like a bag of nails stakes only to sainsburys low sulphur city diesel
Sure, Mark, I don't doubt that. However, my gut feeling suggests that there's probably a bit more to it. Once this tank full has been used, I'll compare the results of using Esso 'Energy' diesel instead, keeping everything else the same, and see what happens! Regardless of that, it certainly seems to suggest that there is a marked difference in the performance with supermarker fuels, compared with the 'proper' variety..... :exactly:
Also, I suspect that I've yet to reap the full rewards of what I've done. Continually using the BP Ultimate diesel with the Millers diesel fuel enhancer, with every 10 tanks full of fuel, will I'm sure result in even greater performance benefits over the long term. I'm rather pleased with this, as I'm the type of person who likes to get the most out of the things I own - hi-fi, cars, or whatever! :)
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
24-01-2013, 18:23
Most engines do not run at their optimum. Engines (in general) have to run on differing qualities of petrol/diesel and so are tuned to this level.
So it’s not surprising your Mighty Merc engine has responded to the extra care you have applied Marco.
Enjoy.
John
archiesdad
24-01-2013, 20:22
SWMBO has a Seat tdi fr, I run it on quality standard diesel(not supermarket) and use Millers additive alongside, that seems adequate and is the popular choice in the car club, never felt the need to add anything to decent oil in the sump though, Castrol Edge is a good choice.
Most engines do not run at their optimum. Engines (in general) have to run on differing qualities of petrol/diesel and so are tuned to this level.
So it’s not surprising your Mighty Merc engine has responded to the extra care you have applied Marco.
Enjoy.
Makes sense, John, I guess - and trust me, I'm enjoying it. Every time I get behind the wheel of this car, I wonder what thrills lie ahead!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hi Martin,
SWMBO has a Seat tdi fr, I run it on quality standard diesel(not supermarket) and use Millers additive alongside, that seems adequate and is the popular choice in the car club, never felt the need to add anything to decent oil in the sump though, Castrol Edge is a good choice.
Yup, it was either Castrol Edge, Motul 8100 X-cess or Valvoline Syn Power. In the end I decided on the Castrol - and don't regret it! I may try using one of the other oils at the next service, just to see if they'd bring any further improvements, but given the performance I'm getting now with Edge, that'd be difficult to imagine... :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
24-01-2013, 21:45
If it's more perormance you want Marco, I'd check out the Merc online fora and see what can be done to your engine. Most modern diesels are hampered with egr and dpf in the cause of low emissions. Have these removed and the engine remapped and you will probably gain around 50 bhp.
Mark Grant
24-01-2013, 21:50
Every time I get behind the wheel of this car, I wonder what thrills lie ahead!! :eyebrows:
Best be careful with that right foot as it's winter :D
Hi Ali,
If it's more perormance you want Marco, I'd check out the Merc online fora and see what can be done to your engine. Most modern diesels are hampered with egr and dpf in the cause of low emissions. Have these removed and the engine remapped and you will probably gain around 50 bhp.
Yup, mate, good advice. Those are things I'm considering doing at a later date. Right now, I'm just enjoying the car for what it is and applying some easily performed light tweaks, which have made a surprising improvement!
It's scary to know that this thing can be made to go even quicker. Honestly, as it is, it's an animal :eek:
The surge you get, forcing you back on your seat, when you kick down on the accelerator is something else... I had a dickhead in a new looking Golf GTI try to race me the other day, on a dual-carriageway near my mate's house, so I let him come along side me to make him think I was trying, then flicked the car into 'Sport Mode', pressed down on the accelerator and WHOOSSSHHH! Left him for dead!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Best be careful with that right foot as it's winter :D
Lol, Mark... The 'jolly japes' were had before the recent snow and ice!
Btw, Ian tells me you'd like to visit sometime soon for some OPPO vs. CDP shenanigans. Nice one. PM me with when you're thinking of coming, as my diary is filling up for the next month or so! :)
Marco.
Interesting videos here on the proven performance advantages of BP Ultimate Diesel:
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9011881&contentId=7022632
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9011889&contentId=7022591
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9027332&contentId=7049891
Marco.
I like diesel engines, particularly their torque. My last car was a 2010 Renault Grande Scenic 1.5 DCi and the power from that little motor was extraordinary. On paper it didn't look like much, in fact some would probably snigger, but in the real world I out-dragged some pretty capable machinery in the time I owned it. It was a hoot to drive and handled really well for one so big. It also had all the bells and whistles one could ever want. It was black pearl in colour, had smoked chrome wheels and privacy glass, so it looked really mean and moody :D
p.s. I like your Merc Marco ;)
sq225917
24-01-2013, 23:25
Marco it's not advised to use a Cetane enhancer with a fortified fuel, it retards the ignition point too much. Try running Tesco diesel with a slosh of this in it, http://www.dieselrhino.co.uk/VWT/vwtoffer.html
Everyone I know with a diesel uses this in their tanks, it's well known in the Volkswagen T4/5 circles and recommended by a couple of the tuners I know who have put it to the test with their own custom remaps for the VW TDI lump.
Interesting, Simon. I shall give that some thought. However, what do mean exactly by "it retards the ignition point too much", and why is that bad? I could guess, but I'd rather receive a proper explanation.
Certainly, at this stage, I can detect no negative effect of using Millers cetane-enhancing fuel treatment with BP Ultimate diesel - quite the opposite, in fact! :eek:
Marco.
Riislingen
25-01-2013, 09:16
Marco,
Seems like you are ready to go see Bob.
http://bobistheoilguy.com
The guys in there is all about analyzing used engine oil, finding that particular synergy between your engine and oil. Highly interesting (and amusing) read.
I've spent hours there myself in the past, so I guess that makes me an oil guy. German Castrol for the win..
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Hi Mikkel,
Lol... Most interesting! I'll give that a read later :)
Yup, I've always been into 'souping up'/tweaking engines, with the use of different spark plugs, fuels, oils, air and oil filters, fuel enhancers, etc, in order to maximise the performance of my car, as it's fun, relatively inexpensive and simple to do.
My interest in all that probably came from when I rode motorbikes, where I used to experiment with using different carburettors and exhust systems, too - all good fun! I especially used to love the smell of burnt Castrol 2-stroke racing oil in my race-tuned Yamaha LC350!! :eyebrows:
Oh, those were the days....
Marco.
Interesting, Simon. I shall give that some thought. However, what do mean exactly by "it retards the ignition point too much", and why is that bad? I could guess, but I'd rather receive a proper explanation.
Certainly, at this stage, I can detect no negative effect of using Millers cetane-enhancing fuel treatment with BP Ultimate diesel - quite the opposite, in fact! :eek:
Marco.
Basically the fuel auto-ignites too late in the compression stroke, which looses BMEP and therefore power.
Obviously you don't have much control over ignition timing with a Diesel!.
Indeed...
Would that be why then that, so far, I can detect only positives, in terms of engine performance, with the use of Millers cetane-enhancing fuel treatment, in conjunction with BP Ultimate diesel? :)
Perhaps it's different with petrol cars, when using the likes of BP Ultimate unleaded?
The reason why I'm mainly using the Millers is not necessarily to improve performance, through the increase in cetane numbers, but because of its superb (well-documented) cleaning properties.
My guess is that as my car had done 65k miles, when I bought it, there may be some 'gunk' in the engine that needs cleaning out (particularly if the previous owner used cheap supermarket diesel and/or inferior quality oil), to allow the BP Ultimate diesel to do its job fully.
Therefore, once I've used the Millers a couple of times, with the required amount of fuel, I may then revert to simply employing the use of BP Ultimate diesel on its own, in conjunction with Castrol Edge fully-synthetic oil.
Marco.
sq225917
25-01-2013, 10:41
The thing with a petrol engine is you can remap the ignition to match your fuel and get the burn you desire. With a Diesel there's nothing you can do as it's just temp/ pressure dependant, the only variable is the flashpoint of your point- adding too much cetane delays this and you lose power. It might be that the Merc engine was expecting to have a higher cetane diesel in it all along and was 'mapped' (for want of a better term that more accurately defines a diesel engines parameters) accordingly, in which case you'll not be robbing it of anything with a splash of Winns in with Shell Ultimate. Certainly on a VW T4 too much is a recipe for black smoke and destroyed glow plugs.
Anyway try the Rhino. Rhino + Tesco diesel works out half the cost difference of Shell Ultimate for the same results.
Covenant
25-01-2013, 10:48
I started a thread about fuel enhancers a while back. Sadly the benefit didn't last long. But what I did find out was that Lexus had not bothered to replace the fuel filter at the regular service. With the fuel filter replaced (every 40,000 in my case) the car runs fine.
Like Marco, I no longer use the main dealer.
My experience is, especially with luxury/performance cars, such as a Lexus or a Merc (BMW or whatever), main dealers play on the fact that their customers have a few bob and simply want the job done, without having too much interest in the finer points of the work carried out.
Therefore, said main dealers get lazy and cut corners, as chances are most of their customers won't know any better!
I'm not like that. I hate the possibility of being ripped off, so I retain control by providing my tried and trusted local mechanic with the lubricants, etc, I want used in the car, which I'll have bought beforehand for the best price I could find on the Internet. This is a guy I've used for years and whom I know does a superb job and takes a great interest in ensuring that after a service my car leaves his garage, mechanically, in tip-top condition, simply because I've built up a rapport with him. I also pay him in cash, so I get the best deal...! ;)
It's a small business, with just his father and him running it, so I prefer to give people like that my money, to get the personal touch, rather than a 'faceless' Mercedes dealership, where no doubt I'd pay through the nose to get an arguably worse job done!
Using the same local garage at every service or MOT also ensures that they get to know the car and the work that's been carried out to it, historically, which in turn has obvious benefits - and the guy (Mark) who owns the garage and carries out the work is the same age as me, and we always have a good laugh!
For me, there's nothing to beat doing business in such a satisfying manner. It makes owning a nice car, and driving it, even more of a pleasure :cool:
Marco.
I had my BMW 335d M-Sport coupe remapped by e-maps (http://www.e-maps.co.uk/)* and it's essential that I use good quality fuel since the timing has been optimised for it. I have used BP Ultimate for years, first the petrol stuff in my previous 540i and now the diesel version. It is excellent fuel and, if you care about performance, smoothness and the longevity of your engine, it's worth the extra cost. On the few occasions that I've been caught short and had to put ordinary diesel in, I can really feel the difference in pickup and acceleration.
Additives go even further and I use two. I add 100ml of acetone to most fills and this keeps the entire fuel system clean and reduces engine noise (there's plenty of info on acetone in fuel on the net). You can get acetone in bulk form from a marine chandlery. I also add Miller's Diesel Ecomax to most fills and this boosts the cetane value and gives it even more go.
As far as servicing goes, I do use my BMW main dealer as I want it done properly and they have all the diagnostic kit, tools and proper spares. Sorry, but I don't want pattern parts in my car. In any case, they are no more expensive than any other main dealer, they treat me with great courtesy, give me another car for the day and send me reminders in good time.
And servicing is as nothing compared with the cost of my tyres :eek:
* the twin-turbo engine is rated at 286bhp in stock form, mine is remapped for 350bhp and 700nm torque. It can lose traction under acceleration in third gear if I give it stick.
I had my BMW 335d M-Sport coupe remapped by e-maps (http://www.e-maps.co.uk/)* and it's essential that I use good quality fuel since the timing has been optimised for it. I have used BP Ultimate for years, first the petrol stuff in my previous 540i and now the diesel version. It is excellent fuel and, if you care about performance, smoothness and the longevity of your engine, it's worth the extra cost. On the few occasions that I've been caught short and had to put ordinary diesel in, I can really feel the difference in pickup and acceleration.
Additives go even further and I use two. I add 100ml of acetone to most fills and this keeps the entire fuel system clean and reduces engine noise (there's plenty of info on acetone in fuel on the net). You can get acetone in bulk form from a marine chandlery. I also add Miller's Diesel Ecomax to most fills and this boosts the cetane value and gives it even more go.
As far as servicing goes, I do use my BMW main dealer as I want it done properly and they have all the diagnostic kit, tools and proper spares. Sorry, but I don't want pattern parts in my car. In any case, they are no more expensive than any other main dealer, they treat me with great courtesy, give me another car for the day and send me reminders in good time.
And servicing is as nothing compared with the cost of my tyres :eek:
* the twin-turbo engine is rated at 286bhp in stock form, mine is remapped for 350bhp and 700nm torque. It can lose traction under acceleration in third gear if I give it stick.
I thought acetone was a no-no as it can degrade synthetic rubber hosts and other components in the fuel system?.
Only in much older cars, Alex. I have used acetone for 7 years in my 540i and 4 years in the current car with never a problem. Of course, manufacturers don't like you doing anything non-standard with their cars so they're always going to say that you shouldn't do it, it'll invalidate the warranty etc.
Note that we're talking about tiny quantities: 100ml in a tankful.
Martin, Good, ok. I know acetone is a great cleaning agent and will help keep injectors clean, help remove varnish from valves and piston crowns etc. At those concentrations your rubber bits will be ok. My exposure to other was way back as an octave booster in a petrol carburated turbo car, and it was problematic at the concentrations needed. It worked bloody well though... No knocking at even very high boost levels!.
High cetane fuel will not improve performance much as long as other exceeds what the engine is designed for (in standard tune). It will burn more completely though, so less soot cacking things up that benefit from staying clean. Tuned or remapped engines can be very different.
Shell optimax diesel works well in my Merc e320 cdi - slightly smoother/quieter idling and starting, but nothing really noticeable in terms of acceleration. Now where did I leave my boost controller? ;)
Cheers,
A.
Shell Optimax is pretty good too, but I think BP Ultimate has the edge in engine smoothness. There's also the issue of double Nectar points on every fill-up ;)
archiesdad
25-01-2013, 20:32
As far as servicing goes, I do use my BMW main dealer as I want it done properly and they have all the diagnostic kit, tools and proper spares. Sorry, but I don't want pattern parts in my car. In any case, they are no more expensive than any other main dealer, they treat me with great courtesy, give me another car for the day and send me reminders in good time.
There are several specialist non franchised garages near me, often ex dealer techs with the correct equipment but charging half or less dealer rates, these guys will, if requested use franchised parts(some suggest this), these guys rely on good verbal advertising and repeat business, I know who gets my work.
BTW, I've worked in the motor trade for years, in and out of franchised dealers and have seen lots going on, franchised servicing does not guarantee "proper" jobs.
Sure Martin, when I had company cars I used to know some disgraceful main dealer servicing. Remember Currie Motors? They were a shockingly poor Ford dealership that couldn't repair the simplest of problems. More often than not they would put faults on the car that weren't there before. They employed boys who hadn't a clue what they were doing.
I have been using BMW Wood in Hampshire for years and they have never put a foot wrong. Dealerships vary a lot and can't be put into a single category.
Indeed - and neither can independents........ :)
As far as servicing goes, I do use my BMW main dealer as I want it done properly and they have all the diagnostic kit, tools and proper spares.
That's your choice, mate, but you seem to be under the misapprehension that a good independent garage, with access to the right equipment and spares (BMW-sourced, if you want) couldn't do just as good a job. I'm sorry, Martin, but you're wrong.
Sorry, but I don't want pattern parts in my car. In any case, they are no more expensive than any other main dealer, they treat me with great courtesy, give me another car for the day and send me reminders in good time.
I don't doubt that, but have you ever tried using a good independent garage instead and doing a proper comparison between both, in terms of the service you receive and the quality of workmanship performed on your car?
I also don't get what you mean by "pattern parts". I can assure you that, even though I use an independent garage, I would insist that any parts fitted to my car were from Mercedes, even if I had to buy them myself and supply the garage with them! ;)
You're very much entitled to your choice of using a main dealer, which from experience you trust, Martin, but other than for the sake of convenience and familiarity, I'm afraid that your logic doesn't really add up.
Marco.
archiesdad
26-01-2013, 15:06
Loads of Martins on here it seems, bloomin' confusing.:grouphug:
I forgot to mention oil: only Castrol Edge allowed by BMW for my car, so no decision required.
I forgot to mention oil: only Castrol Edge allowed by BMW for my car, so no decision required.
I thought you might have had something to add to my previous post... ;)
Marco.
I haven't used any oil additives, Marco, only because the Castrol is already an excellent oil and my car uses virtually none between services.
Oh I see, you were referring to independents. Yes I used one for a while on my previous BMW and he was good and used BMW parts as I requested. However, I then moved away and bought a new car, so I've stuck with the main dealer who haven't put a foot wrong.
There's much less cost difference than you might think. As I said before, the cost of my tyres swamps the once annual service costs.
Ammonite Audio
26-01-2013, 19:28
I use Shell V-Power diesel in my cars. It's certainly cheaper than BP Ultimate where I live and it does what it says in the blurb, eg better, smoother and quieter performance, with a slight benefit in fuel economy that offsets the higher pump price, compared with Shell 'cooking' diesel, as long as the temptation to use the extra performance is resisted. On the rare occasions when I have to fill up my BMW 320d Automatic with ordinary diesel, the car feels and sounds like there's something wrong. My little Fiat Panda Multijet diesel had over 100k miles on the clock when I bought it and V-Power diesel has clearly done something to degunge the injectors etc, since 10k miles later it now runs like a sewing machine.
Best average (corrected) fuel consumption using V-Power diesel for me has been 63mpg in the BMW and a staggering 87mpg in the Fiat. I can't get close with cheaper fuels when on a deliberate economy run.
Oh I see, you were referring to independents. Yes I used one for a while on my previous BMW and he was good and used BMW parts as I requested. However, I then moved away and bought a new car, so I've stuck with the main dealer who haven't put a foot wrong.
I totally get that, mate - I mean why change anything if you're delighted with the service you already get? :)
However, just out of curiosity, how much does your main dealer charge you for a full service, including labour and all the necessary lubricants and stuff?
There's much less cost difference than you might think. As I said before, the cost of my tyres swamps the once annual service costs.
I suspect that our cars use similar-sized tyres, so I'll be feeling your pain once the unknown branded (brand new) ones, currently fitted to my Merc by the previous owner, are eventually replaced with my usual favourites, Bridgestones or Continentals!! :eek:
Marco.
Hugo - yes, I remember now that Shell Optimax is now called V-Power. I've used it a few times, especially since my local BP station doesn't seem to understand stock control and is always running out of BP Ultimate. My car responds well to it but is still even smoother on the BP stuff.
walpurgis
27-01-2013, 00:26
Would my 1971 Citroen 2CV benefit from any of the aforementioned?
I forgot to mention oil: only Castrol Edge allowed by BMW for my car, so no decision required.
Not true, Castrol is 'recommended' You can use any oil that meets the BMW LL-04 spec.
Bob just needs his elastic band changed every six months
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/BOB2.jpg
Hi Martin (he of the 'T' variety),
However, just out of curiosity, how much does your main dealer charge you for a full service, including labour and all the necessary lubricants and stuff?
:)
As for which type of diesel I prefer, I'll let you know when I've tried them all (fortunately in Wrexham, I've got access to all major types within a reasonable distance), but it'll take some going to beat the performance I'm getting from BP Ultimate!
Marco.
littlest hobo
27-01-2013, 10:08
Given that I drive a Smart fortwo cdi - sporting the worlds smallest turbo diesel production engine (excludes lawn mowers), I would need oil supplied by NASA to make much difference to 54 broken Shetland ponies. The DTUK box makes a big difference - I can now beat milk floats off the lights! :D
If it's more perormance you want Marco, I'd check out the Merc online fora and see what can be done to your engine. Most modern diesels are hampered with egr and dpf in the cause of low emissions. Have these removed and the engine remapped and you will probably gain around 50 bhp.
Was seriously interested in getting the dpf mapped out but heard a nasty rumour that it would result in instant mot failure due to difference in emmissions.
That's a very interesting point, Claire, and if true would kill any notions I have of having my car's engine re-mapped.
Would any of our resident 'engine re-mappers' care to comment?
Marco.
anthonyTD
27-01-2013, 10:49
Given that I drive a Smart fortwo cdi - sporting the worlds smallest turbo diesel production engine (excludes lawn mowers), I would need oil supplied by NASA to make much difference to 54 broken Shetland ponies. The DTUK box makes a big difference - I can now beat milk floats off the lights! :D
Was seriously interested in getting the dpf mapped out but heard a nasty rumour that it would result in instant mot failure due to difference in emmissions.
My Mrs has one too, great little car!
A...
Not true, Castrol is 'recommended' You can use any oil that meets the BMW LL-04 spec.
The last time I checked in my manual, Castrol was the only oil named.
Was seriously interested in getting the dpf mapped out but heard a nasty rumour that it would result in instant mot failure due to difference in emmissions.
A good remap won't do that at all. In some 14 years of using remaps in three cars, this is not true. I have never had an emissions failure in MOTs.
However, just out of curiosity, how much does your main dealer charge you for a full service, including labour and all the necessary lubricants and stuff?
My car only needs one service a year, and they alternate between minor service (about £250 fully inc) and major service (about £500 fully inc). I do not consider that to be high running costs for a high performance car.
I suspect that our cars use similar-sized tyres, so I'll be feeling your pain once the unknown branded (brand new) ones, currently fitted to my Merc by the previous owner, are eventually replaced with my usual favourites, Bridgestones or Continentals!! :eek:
I've tried a fair few tyres now and would say that Bridgestone runflats are quite poor tyres. I have opted not to use runflats any more (my risk, but many members of the BMW car club do likewise) and now fit my favourite Avon ZZ3s as a matter of course, and carry two cans of Tyreweld in the car.
walpurgis
27-01-2013, 11:42
I watched a repeat of 'Fifth Gear' the other day and they tested two of the high performance diesel fuels aginst a regular supermarket grade and in both cases there was an approximate 10% boost in power.
Indeed. It's not definitely not imagined, and once you get used to it, just a like the superior sound of a better hi-fi system, you can't live without it! :exactly:
I now wouldn't touch supermarket fuel with a bargepole.
Marco.
My car only needs one service a year, and they alternate between minor service (about £250 fully inc) and major service (about £500 fully inc). I do not consider that to be high running costs for a high performance car.
Ok, gotcha. So, just for reference, what sort of work is carried out in both types of service - basically, what more do you get for your £500 in a "major service", as opposed to a "minor" one?
I got an oil change, with filter, air filter change, engine tune, brakes adjusted, full diagnostic check and the computer service lights reset, by my local garage (where, trust me, they know just as much about the car as the mechanics do at a main dealer) for £50! Would that be termed as a minor or a major service?
Mind you, I had to supply the oil (9 litres of Castrol Edge fully synthetic) and filters on top of that, which cost me just under £100. Still, even at £150, that's £100 cheaper than you pay for a "minor service" of your car at a main dealer!
I shudder to think what I'd have paid for the same work to be carried out at my local Mercedes dealership, who once quoted me £60 +VAT to fit a new water bottle reservoir for the windscreen washer - a job that took me less than 10 mins to do myself - (excluding the cost of the part)!! :eek: :mental:
I'm trying to analyse if I'm missing out on anything, other than having an emptier wallet, by not using a main dealer for my car servicing.... ;)
I've tried a fair few tyres now and would say that Bridgestone runflats are quite poor tyres. I have opted not to use runflats any more (my risk, but many members of the BMW car club do likewise) and now fit my favourite Avon ZZ3s as a matter of course, and carry two cans of Tyreweld in the car.
Educate me, mate, what are "runflats"? How do they differ from normal tyres and what are their supposed advantages? Never heard of Avon tyres. Would you rate them better than Bridgestones or Continentals?
Marco.
The last time I checked in my manual, Castrol was the only oil named.
I think if you check Martin Castrol is the recommended brand, this is what is stated in my manual and also on the BMW website...
Marco, runflats are tyres that can continue to be driven on after a puncture for a limited milage and speed. The idea being to allow you to either get home or find a tyre fitter to replace it...IE not be stranded by the side of the road. The downside to them is replacement cost and the very stiff side walls they must have to be able to be driven on when flat. When they first came out they where pretty shocking but recently they have improved and I find the latest ones fitted to my BM to be just as good as normal Summer grade tyres.
Mark Grant
27-01-2013, 12:14
Was seriously interested in getting the dpf mapped out but heard a nasty rumour that it would result in instant mot failure due to difference in emmissions.
Removing the DPF might cause a problem, most people do the 'normal' remap and leave the DPF in place and working to catch the particles and soot etc.
My previous van was remapped and passed the MOT OK every year and wore out front tyres quickly :)
That was just a remap, no tinkering with the DPF.
links to DPF for people that are interested:
http://www.aa-academy.com/Training/Learning%20Zone/Diesel%20Particulate%20Filter%20%28DPF%29.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dpf&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=VxcFUYrMJYWK0AWa54CQAQ&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA&biw=1280&bih=963#hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&q=diesel+particulate+filter&revid=1165126623&sa=X&ei=ghcFUZiVEYjB0gXhtoGgCA&ved=0CE4QgxY&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41524429,d.d2k&fp=99ab84d5aed57881&biw=1280&bih=963
Ali Tait
27-01-2013, 12:19
Marco, runflats are what they sound like, tyres you can still drive on when they are flat. They have a very stiff sidewall, so can affect ride and be noisier than normal tyres.
Ammonite Audio
27-01-2013, 12:47
Am I correct in thinking that the new MOT testing regime now checks for the presence and operation of exhaust catalysts, DPFs etc? Previously, a diesel car had a fairly rudimentary emissions test.
I am a fan of diesel engines and their massive torque output. The trouble is that modern turbo-diesels have all sorts of bells and whistles attached for emissions requirement, and these things can often be troublesome. Intake manifold swirl flaps will be a familiar subject to BMW owners and exhaust gas recirculation systems and DPFs seem to be a mixed bag too. Given the considerable extra purchase and maintenance costs of a diesel vehicle, against improved economy of petrol cars, it's probably now not worth buying diesel unless you're doing big miles each year. The strange extra tax burden on diesel fuel does not help either.
Audioman
27-01-2013, 13:34
Ok, gotcha. So, just for reference, what sort of work is carried out in both types of service - basically, what more do you get for your £500 in a "major service", as opposed to a "minor" one?
I got an oil change, with filter, air filter change, engine tune, brakes adjusted, full diagnostic check and the computer service lights reset, by my local garage (where, trust me, they know just as much about the car as the mechanics do at a main dealer) for £50! Would that be termed as a minor or a major service?
Mind you, I had to supply the oil (9 litres of Castrol Edge fully synthetic) and filters on top of that, which cost me just under £100. Still, even at £150, that's £100 cheaper than you pay for a "minor service" of your car at a main dealer!
I shudder to think what I'd have paid for the same work to be carried out at my local Mercedes dealership, who once quoted me £60 +VAT to fit a new water bottle reservoir for the windscreen washer - a job that took me less than 10 mins to do myself - (excluding the cost of the part)!! :eek: :mental:
I'm trying to analyse if I'm missing out on anything, other than having an emptier wallet, by not using a main dealer for my car servicing.... ;)
Marco.
It's well known that independent garages are cheaper if they have the gear to adjust the in built computers on modern cars. Thus having the facilities to do a competent job. All this irrelevant if you have a new or newer motor which is still under the usual 3 years warranty. In that case you would be stupid not to use the main dealer for servicing. Unfortunately BMW and Mercedes dealers are renowned for their high charges.
Paul.
Taken from Piston Heads, posted back in Jun'12:
The new MOT regs do include a provision that any original emissions kit must remain on the car, ie you cannot remove cats/DPFs etc. However, this is a visual test and so removing the internals and refitting the empty DPF box would generally be a pass, most cars will then pass a smoke test even without the DPF in place.
The new regs do not include a fail for engine management lights, there has been a lot of misunderstanding as the lights that are included (airbag, traction etc) have been referred to as MILs which is what the trade generally considers to be an engine management light but in fact refers to any Malfunction Indicator Light.
Having said all that, I'm pretty sure these new rules have not yet been added to the test as fail items, was supposed to be in April I think but it didn't happen, not sure why? Either way, the details could all change by the time they are properly on the test.
If you do remove a DPF in most cases the ecu will require remapping not only to avoid a light coming on but also as many of the cars will drop into a pretty severe limp mode reducing performance, PHers in mid-north Staffordshire can email me for details . - Steve H
archiesdad
27-01-2013, 14:05
All this irrelevant if you have a new or newer motor which is still under the usual 3 years warranty. In that case you would be stupid not to use the main dealer for servicing.
Paul.
Hi Paul, the "Block Exemption" rule( if I've got the right title) means that you no longer need to use the franchised outlets for servicing to retain the warranty on any car, as long servicing is carried out as per the service guide you can go anywhere you wish. One of the few EC rulings that is of any use.
Martin T, the BMW dealer that was part of the motor group I worked used Mobil products in their workshop, Castrol/BMW have a marketing tie up as do some French manufacturers do with Total.
For the sake of clarity: I have not bypassed the DPF in my car and neither would I. I don't want a car that contributes to particulates in the air. I do wish that manufacturers would put a warning light on the dash when the burn cycle has kicked in, though. I can usually feel it but it would be nice to have visual confirmation.
I do appreciate that I do not need to have my car serviced by BMW in order to preserve my extended warranty. However, I choose to use them with open eyes and know that I'm paying more for servicing than I would an independent. I like the peace of mind that it gives me. I have no intention of changing that policy for the foreseeable future ;)
Oh, and the last time I checked, Mercedes servicing was way more expensive than BMW servicing. Audi also have the worst reputation for offhandedness with their customers.
Yup, rather strangely, Mercedes are seen as being 'more upmarket' than BMW (hence the higher prices for servicing), but I don't see that myself. For me, a 3-Series BMW is just as 'posh' as a C-Class Merc, ditto for 5-Series and E-Class.
However, I choose to use them with open eyes and know that I'm paying more for servicing than I would an independent. I like the peace of mind that it gives me ;)
Lol... I get that, mate, but it just shows how you and I, in that respect, are very different. It'd be the opposite for me - I'd be worrying if I was paying through the nose and being ripped off! :eyebrows:
You know what I'm like with 'SPPV', when it comes to hi-fi. With anything else, car servicing or whatever, for me, the same basic principle applies... ;)
Where may one obtain Avon tyres, and what is it you like about them?
Marco.
Marco, runflats are what they sound like, tyres you can still drive on when they are flat. They have a very stiff sidewall, so can affect ride and be noisier than normal tyres.
Thanks for that, Ali (and Neal). What are your favourite makes of tyres, then - and why? :)
When I buy my next set, I want to get the best I possibly can. I like the look of Bridgestone Potenza: http://www.bridgestone.com/products/passenger_tires/potenza/index.html
The tyres on my car are 18".
Marco.
Ali Tait
27-01-2013, 21:52
Been looking at tyres for the 166. Toss up between Goodyear Eagle Asymmetric 2's and Michelin Pilot Sport 3's methinks. ZZ3's are good too though, and cheaper.
What size are the tyres on your Alfa, Ali? Do you rate Bridgestone, or do you prefer Goodyear or Michelin?
Marco.
Ali Tait
27-01-2013, 22:06
Tyres are 225/40/18's. I think all those you mention are good makes, though from reviews on line the Michelins and Goodyears get higher scores than the Bridgestones. Saying that, in the real world there's probably little between them.
I have to say I rate the Avon ZZ3 also. Used them before and have some on the Alfa at the moment. They are very good tyres and a fair bit cheaper than the others.
I know bugger all about tyres, but my perception (probably wrongly) has always been that Michelin and Goodyear were more 'mainstream' and less specialist than the likes of Bridgestone, Continental and Pirelli.
What in the tyre world, if there is such a thing, is considered as the 'Rolls Royce' of brands? :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
27-01-2013, 22:28
I use this site, which seems to be quite comprehensive
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/
Where may one obtain Avon tyres, and what is it you like about them?
Avon ZZ3s (http://www.avon-tyres.co.uk/car/zz3) are very grippy in the dry and wet, they corner as if on rails and they have a reasonable lifespan. They are also much, much quieter than the hard and noisy Bridgestones. Warning: they are not run-flats. This may be of no consequence to you if you have a spare wheel. If you don't, like my car, then you make your own decision about carrying some Tyre weld (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_16 4880_langId_-1_categoryId_165664) instead. The benefit is that they cost damn nearly half the price and they're better tyres in all respects.
I buy my tyres from Black Circles (http://www.blackcircles.com/) and have them fitted at a local place.
I use this site, which seems to be quite comprehensive
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/
Thanks, Ali. I've had a quick look. Interesting! :)
Marco.
For non-runflats I always gravitate to Continental Sport Contacts, found them very good in the wet or dry and they are quiet as well...the choice though can be quite bewildering.
Avon ZZ3s (http://www.avon-tyres.co.uk/car/zz3) are very grippy in the dry and wet, they corner as if on rails and they have a reasonable lifespan. They are also much, much quieter than the hard and noisy Bridgestones. Warning: they are not run-flats. This may be of no consequence to you if you have a spare wheel. If you don't, like my car, then you make your own decision about carrying some Tyre weld (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_16 4880_langId_-1_categoryId_165664) instead. The benefit is that they cost damn nearly half the price and they're better tyres in all respects.
I buy my tyres from Black Circles (http://www.blackcircles.com/) and have them fitted at a local place.
Thanks for that, Martin. The Avons look good. I guess that my priorities would be handling in the wet, maximum performance at speed, and quietness. Would you say that all Bridgestones, in comparison with Avons, are noiser, or just the runflats?
I know you're kind of anti-Bridgestone now (after your experience with the runflats), but I can't help but think that these Potenza models look rather tasty:
http://www.bridgestone.eu/tyres/car-4x4-and-van/summer-tyres/car/sport
Check them out. I'd appreciate your opinion (and which ones you reckon would be best). Ali, or anyone else, your views would be equally as welcome! :)
Marco.
I've used the Potenza S-03 (non-runflat) and they were good. Not better than the Avons, but good. It's their runflats that I don't like.
Neal - agreed, the Conti Sports are good but I've always found them very expensive.
anthonyTD
27-01-2013, 23:29
Hi Marco,
Pirelli are a good safe bet for grip, and noise on rear wheel drive cars such as BMW and your Merc, however, they are quite soft, so don't last as long as some of the other brands.
I have used them on quite a few of my cars in the past, Ie; BMW, Porsche, And my current car [Audi TT MK 1] with nothing but praise for them, but its your call.
To be honest, [and according to one tyre dealer i was recently speaking with] there really is no such thing as a bad tyre these days, [not like the rubbish that used to be around] so, it really is a choice of brand names, and wear rate thats important to most people today.
A...
The Pirelli P-Zeros also look very good:
http://www.pirelli.com/tire/us/en/car/sheet/pzero.html
Too much bloody choice!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Anthony, you must've been reading my mind! :eyebrows:
Long-lasting isn't my No1 priority, as I don't do many miles these days, but the best performance is! :)
Marco.
My stupid car has a unique tyre size, and the only premium brand available is Pirelli with their P7 - expensive, but I got 50,000 miles out of the last set!
I got 50,000 miles out of the last set!
:eek: I'm lucky to get 15,000 out of my rears.
Ali Tait
28-01-2013, 10:51
Marco, run flats will always be noisier and have a harder ride because of the stiffer sidewall.
I'd agree with Martin, the ZZ3 will be as good as anything else, but cheaper. In fact, the last time I bought tyres, the owner said that was what he used on his own car, and being the ownerhe could have had any tyres he wanted.
Marco, run flats will always be noisier and have a harder ride because of the stiffer sidewall.
I'd agree with Martin, the ZZ3 will be as good as anything else, but cheaper. In fact, the last time I bought tyres, the owner said that was what he used on his own car, and being the ownerhe could have had any tyres he wanted.
True if you slap them on a car not designed for them Ali. Theres some truth in what you say, however, suspension tuning can compensate for the stiffer sidewalls and this is what BMW have done. I don't find the current tyres on my car are any worse than the non-runflats I retro fitted to my last car...
My car has M-Sport suspension so it's already stiff. I found the runflats just too much, creating a very hard and noisy ride. This was well reported in the reviews of the time. Switching to non-runflat reinforced tyres has softened the ride just enough to give a good combination of comfort and flat cornering.
I found the ride on my 335i Msport with runflats was appalling, so much so that the car would jump around on some B roads. My similarly suspended 330i MSport without run flats was great. My current X3 MSport with runflats has a very good ride, but the tyres are not ultra-low profile. Overall I hate runflats......
To make matters worse....when you get a puncture with an RFT you need a new tyre.
To make matters worse....when you get a puncture with an RFT you need a new tyre.
Well yes, but I consider that to be the case for all tyres these days.
My car has M-Sport suspension so it's already stiff. I found the runflats just too much, creating a very hard and noisy ride. This was well reported in the reviews of the time. Switching to non-runflat reinforced tyres has softened the ride just enough to give a good combination of comfort and flat cornering.
Mine too Martin, I think BMW may have refined things further for the latest F30 series, mines fitted with Bridgestone's and I find the ride very good. Better than my E90 on normal tyres.
To make matters worse....when you get a puncture with an RFT you need a new tyre.
Not true, just like a normal tyre it depends...IE: how far its been driven on and exactly where the puncture is. Dunlop give guidance for repair as do Bridgstone...
http://www.bridgestone.com/sc/runflat-system/qa/
Not true, just like a normal tyre it depends...IE: how far its been driven on and exactly where the puncture is. Dunlop give guidance for repair as do Bridgstone...
http://www.bridgestone.com/sc/runflat-system/qa/
If you take an RFT to most tyre repairers they will refuse to fix it, even if the puncture is well away from the sidewalls. I gave up fighting this as my car is a lease car. Even the leasing company insisted I had a new tyre. As the tyres are rare I had to go to a BMW dealer for a new tyre (twice so far...), this eats up a large part of the day.
One of the issues is that people don't tell the truth about how far they've driven on a flat. At low speed you won't get rubber powder so its nigh on impossible to assess damage. I'm sure it's possible to find a repairer to fix an RFT but it won't be easy.
For some reason the UK is much more strict on this than other countries, it could be to do with liability.
Understood Clive, it may have something to do with liability but maybe more to do with a sales opportunity. Just looked at a Goodyear document and again they advise they can be repaired and advise how...perhaps the main tyre outlets in this country just cant be bothered as the repair is more difficult and its just easier to sell a new one. Repairs can be done but they don't seem to have the motivation.
I did consider the sales opportunity too, there could be an element of this but this doesn't explain why the leasing company insists on stumping up for new tyres. It must be big cost to them.
If it keeps hitting them in the pocket maybe they will likely change their policies. This was interesting... Michelin also indicate they can be repaired. http://www.car-tyres.org.uk/articles/run_flat_tyre_repairs.asp
When I had a company lease car they where really tight on what tyre and when they could be replaced, they even used to send an inspector out if they thought you where trying it on!
archiesdad
28-01-2013, 20:28
:eek: I'm lucky to get 15,000 out of my rears.
Jings, I changed the rears on my Honda 9.5k, although they still had 2mm on them but felt done in at that and winter approached. Bridgestone RE050, S2k model specific, usually two sets of rears to one set of front.
The last link shows I'm not the only one to struggle with this. My car is a personal lease but they are tight on tyres except fot RFT punctures. Change tyres are 3mm tread....no chance.
Thanks for that, Martin. The Avons look good. I guess that my priorities would be handling in the wet, maximum performance at speed, and quietness. Would you say that all Bridgestones, in comparison with Avons, are noiser, or just the runflats?
I know you're kind of anti-Bridgestone now (after your experience with the runflats), but I can't help but think that these Potenza models look rather tasty:
http://www.bridgestone.eu/tyres/car-4x4-and-van/summer-tyres/car/sport
Check them out. I'd appreciate your opinion (and which ones you reckon would be best). Ali, or anyone else, your views would be equally as welcome! :)
Marco.
Marco,
Not sure what tyre size you are running (245/40R17?), but on my E class the best tyres I have tried is the OEM Continental Sport contact 2.
I have tried the the Pirelli P Zero and the Continental Sport contact 3. The Pirelli was a lot noisier, and the Sport contact 3 had a much crashier ride. All of the above were the MO high load factor tyre.
Cheers,
A.
The Pirelli was a lot noisier, and the Sport contact 3 had a much crashier ride. All of the above were the MO high load factor tyre.
Hi Alex,
What do you mean by a "crashier ride"? Also, forgive me for being fick, but what's an "MO high load factor type"? :)
Marco.
usually two sets of rears to one set of front.
Me too.
Marco,
The 'MO' means that it is a special Mercedes-approved OEM version. Mercedes will have tested 'MO' variants to ensure that the ESP and other electronic systems work properly, that they can cope with the maximum specified kerb weights, towing weight etc etc. Non 'MO' tyres may work as well or better, but they haven't been tested by Mercedes. I think as long as the load factor on the sidewall is comparable you shouldn't have problems.
What I meant by 'crashiness' was a poorer secondary ride - the car lost that nice 'gliding over small bumps' quality of ride that it had on the original tyres, and transmitted more vibration through the seat and steering over ripples and small bumps. The grip wasn't improved either, but at least they seem to be wearing out a lot more quickly so at least I won't have to endure them for much longer.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Thanks for the clarification - I see... So, as I'm a bit confused now, which tyres is it exactly you're recommending? :)
Marco.
Ian Walker
28-01-2013, 22:43
If your buying expensive tyres chaps dont forget this..it works.
http://www.atseuromaster.co.uk/nitrogen-inflation.htm
Good point, daftee... I'll remember that one!
Here's a silver version of my 'hearse' (are you watching, Jammy-Boy? ;)), only slightly older:
uVYZV8YZCHI
And the same Harman Kardon Logic 7 sound system, as in my car (minus the subwoofer):
NprBrKZdd2w
Apologies for the cheesy music! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hi Alex,
What I meant by 'crashiness' was a poorer secondary ride - the car lost that nice 'gliding over small bumps' quality of ride that it had on the original tyres, and transmitted more vibration through the seat and steering over ripples and small bumps. The grip wasn't improved either, but at least they seem to be wearing out a lot more quickly so at least I won't have to endure them for much longer.
Just to clarify, which ones are "them", and which tyres are you recommending - the Continentals (and if so, what type)? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I like the Continental Sport Contact 2 more than the Pirelli P Zero, and much more than the Sport Contact 3 (in 245/40R17 at least....).
It took about 30 feet to realise that I had chosen wrongly!.
BTW, My car is a E320 CDI Avant Garde with air suspension.
Cheers,
A.
Hi Alex,
Thanks for the clarification. It was the Contact 2 and Contact 3 that was mixing me up.
That's interesting. Did you find that the Contact 2 had as much grip as the Pirelli, and also overall, how much noiser and/or rougher was the ride with the Pirellis over the Contact 2?
Marco.
I think the Sport Contact 2s might be the ones: http://www.ctyres.co.uk/tyres/Continental/Sport_Contact2.php
I also like the look of this company who come out and fit them for you:
http://www.etyres.co.uk/
:)
Btw, I've read a few reviews about the Continentals "tram-lining" quite badly. What does that mean?
This review, by someone who seems quite sensible, and drives a performance car, swings it for me:
Given 97% (breakdown) while driving a BMW 535d M Sport (275-30-20-W)
Driving on a combination of roads for 18,000 spirited miles
These have so far lasted 18K of mainly mixed town and motorway driving. My car kicks out approx 270 BHP and I have 20 inch alloys. When these tyres were put on the tracking wheel alignment etc was done to the correct spec of the car as I wanted to avoid uneven tyre wear.
So far I must say these have been brilliant by far the longest wearing tyres I have had on any of my cars. I was apprehensive with 20 inch tyres as they cost almost 300 quid and I have heard they don’t last very long.
Well if you drive like a twat most of the time, have your car lowered to the stupid extreme, drive it like you stole it then yes they will perish in next to no time. But if you look after your car and rims and drive sensibly then yes these tyres will and can last.
I have approx 5mm on the front and the rears are down to about 4mm, the handling in the dry is as good as it can get but in the wet these tyres have been great and offer tons of grip without getting silly.
I am looking to do a re-map to up the power to 310 BHP and then things should get interesting.
I am definitely going to get another set.
Marco.
The 3's get a good write up http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Continental/Sport-Contact-3.htm
I've used the Conti 2's for many years and found them to be very good...
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Continental/Sport-Contact-2.htm
Thanks for that, Neal. I'll have a read :)
Btw, any idea what 'tram-lining' is and why it's bad?
Marco.
archiesdad
29-01-2013, 20:26
Tram-lining is when the front wheels will follow wear patterns in the tarmac rather than going where you desire, not something that you really want.
Ah, gotcha! I guess the effect of that would depend on the types of surfaces you're usually driving on...
Marco.
Ali Tait
29-01-2013, 20:55
Aye, but some tyres are much more prone to it than others. Worst tyre I've experienced it on was Yokohama.
Interesting... It's certainly not something I'd ever considered before.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I found the P zero to be a very good dry weather tyre. They were very good for traction and braking. Lateral grip was also good, and steering feedback/feel was very good too.
Tyre noise was worse than the Contis, especially on concrete. Much more tyre noise from the rear of the car, which is quite annoying. The ride was not brilliant.. Probably on a par with the Contis sport contact 3.
What was unwelcome was that there was a significant drop off in grip going from dry to wet, much more so than either of the Contis. A typical summer performance tyre if you like - might be an issue in your location!. They don't like cold weather at all and grip was reduced. Generally I prefer to trade off little dry grip in favour of wet grip, especially as my wife drives the car too and she isn't blessed with my god-like driving skills :)
The Contis are both better compromise than the pirellis in that respect, and wet grip and traction/braking are very good on both the 2's and the 3's. Steering feel is better on the 3's than the 2's, which feel ever so slightly numb on lock, with less self centering. Still a precise and consistent tyre.
Overall I found the Conti sport contact 2 the best trade off.
Cheers,
Alex
Most helpful, Alex. I think I'm pretty sold on the Conti 2s or 3s, when my current tyres wear out. I think I'll go for a couple of rears when my next service is due, and then get the fronts sorted after that :)
Some are saying, though, that the Contact 2s are discontinued, and then there are the 5s - not sure where they might fit into the equation?
Marco.
I was out washing and waxing the car (nice sunny day here in Wrexham) and had a look at the tyres that were on it in more detail.
There are two Landsails at the front, of Chinese origin, I believe. At the back, there is a Nankang, which I presume is also Chinese, and rather interestingly a Pirelli P Zero. I suspect that that one may have been the last of the original tyres that the previous owner fitted when he was feeling flusher! :)
Therefore, although all the tyres are in very good nick, two of them (the Landsails) brand new, I suspect that having all those different tread patterns in contact with the road surface isn't the best thing (although the car handles well at speed and the tyres don't seem especially noisy), I suspect that I've got a major upgrade still to come when I eventually change them all for Contis....
The best news, however (or worse, depending on how you look at it, in terms of cost), which I hadn't realised, is that after taking a tape measure to the tyres, I've discovered that they're bloody 22"!!! :eek: I thought that they looked distinctly 'chunky'... :eyebrows:
I can't find the exact alloys I've got, on-line, but they're AMG types similar to this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22-MERCEDES-ML-AMG-2006-2011-TEAM-DYNAMICS-MANHATTEN-ALLOY-WHEELS-5x112-/130740043478?pt=UK_CarParts_Acc_Wheels_tyres_Trims _Car_Rims_ET&hash=item1e70b6bed6
These of course are non-standard on a C320 CDI Avantgarde SE (the gorgeous wheels were one of the reasons why I bought the car), so whoever had it before me must've spent a bomb, as those AMG alloys cost around a grand each, WITHOUT tyres!!
So, if we're talking about £300 a tyre, if I go for Conti Sport Contact 2/3/5, or whatever, that's £1300 a wheel x 4..... Jeezuz - I'd better be careful where I leave the car!! :uhho:
Marco.
Do these Nankang NS-2s look a bit like your Avons, Martin?
http://www.nankangtyres.com.au/tyre1/ns-2.php
Scroll down a bit... The tread seems similar :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
01-02-2013, 12:40
What size are your tyres mate?
No, they're quite different. Here are the Avon ZZ3s:
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/images/tyres/zz3.jpg
Mine are 19" and the Avons cost me about £150 each (265/30 rears). The Bridgestone runflats were almost £300 each.
What size are your tyres mate?
They measure 22" across exactly. I'm not sure about the other dimensions :)
No worries, Martin.
Marco.
Ali Tait
01-02-2013, 14:11
It'll tell you on the side wall of the tyre, something like 235/40/R18, different numbers for different sizes of course. First number in the width of the tyre, second is the profile (distance from rim of alloy to outside edge of tyre). Third is diameter of alloy. There will also be a letter, v or similar, which tells you the speed rating of the tyre.
I think that I might have got this wrong, or rather it's not as simple as taking a tape measure to the tyres.... :eyebrows:
They're marked as 245 35 ZR 18 (that's the Pirelli P Zero one), so does that mean 18", then? :)
If so, why do the tyres measure wider than that from the outside when you're looking at them face on?
Marco.
Ali Tait
01-02-2013, 14:38
Quite a low profile then. They measure that way as the alloy has a raised lip around the inside and outside edges into which the edges of the tyre tuck, such that you can't see the inner tyre edges, so that they will stay air tight, for obvious reasons. If you took the tyre off the wheel and measured across the inner edges, you'd get 18 inches
Ah, gotcha... Well, they should be cheaper to replace then than 22s! :D
Quite a low profile then.
Is that a good thing? What, if any, are the advantages? :)
Marco.
I was out washing and waxing the car (nice sunny day here in Wrexham) and had a look at the tyres that were on it in more detail.
There are two Landsails at the front, of Chinese origin, I believe. At the back, there is a Nankang, which I presume is also Chinese, and rather interestingly a Pirelli P Zero. I suspect that that one may have been the last of the original tyres that the previous owner fitted when he was feeling flusher! :)
Therefore, although all the tyres are in very good nick, two of them (the Landsails) brand new, I suspect that having all those different tread patterns in contact with the road surface isn't the best thing (although the car handles well at speed and the tyres don't seem especially noisy), I suspect that I've got a major upgrade still to come when I eventually change them all for Contis....
The best news, however (or worse, depending on how you look at it, in terms of cost), which I hadn't realised, is that after taking a tape measure to the tyres, I've discovered that they're bloody 22"!!! :eek: I thought that they looked distinctly 'chunky'... :eyebrows:
I can't find the exact alloys I've got, on-line, but they're AMG types similar to this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22-MERCEDES-ML-AMG-2006-2011-TEAM-DYNAMICS-MANHATTEN-ALLOY-WHEELS-5x112-/130740043478?pt=UK_CarParts_Acc_Wheels_tyres_Trims _Car_Rims_ET&hash=item1e70b6bed6
These of course are non-standard on a C320 CDI Avantgarde SE (the gorgeous wheels were one of the reasons why I bought the car), so whoever had it before me must've spent a bomb, as those AMG alloys cost around a grand each, WITHOUT tyres!!
So, if we're talking about £300 a tyre, if I go for Conti Sport Contact 2/3/5, or whatever, that's £1300 a wheel x 4..... Jeezuz - I'd better be careful where I leave the car!! :uhho:
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Your tyre size is 245/35 R18. The 'ZR' is the speed rating of the tyre, which means they are ok for vehicles with a top speed of over 240Kph.
R18 means you have 18" rims - 22" would be ridiculous on a C class unless you want it to ride and handle like a skateboard!. the 18" refers to the diameter of the shoulders inside the wheel rim where the tyre bead sits, not the lip of the wheel rim.
I have to say that IMHO any current Chinese tyre isn't worthy of the car, and some are positively dangerous in the wet - replace them all asap!.
Her is a link to a set of tyre tests (http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2010-Autocar-Tyre-Test-RWD.htm), both on FWD and RWD cars. The Conti Sport Contact 3 generally wins. Honestly I'd bin the Nankang ditch-finders and fit some decent rubber - you won't go far wrong with the Contis!.
Cheers,
Alex
Ali Tait
01-02-2013, 15:34
Not a lot really. It's more for looks than anything else IMHO. The fashion nowadays is for bigger wheels, but cars actually handle better with smaller wheels. Low profile might give a better feel for the road through the steering wheel, depending on how your suspension is set up, but it makes for a less smooth ride, and you will really feel potholes etc.
The idea behind bigger wheels and lower profile tyres is that the contact patch grows due to the tyre being flatter against the road compared with a standard profile. So there is potentially more grip. The downside is that the tyre walls are thinner and less flexible, so the ride quality suffers. For runflats, it's an even worse problem as the sidewalls are highly reinforced and therefor even less flexible again.
I thought this user review of the Nankang NS2 was quite funny :lol:.
"Given 41% (breakdown) while driving a Ford Focus ST (225-45-17-)
Driving on mostly country roads for 20 spirited miles
READ THIS GENUINE REVIEW.
Grip in Dry - 6*
Grip in Wet - 1*
Progressiveness - 1*
Tyre wear - 10*
For anyone that is serious about driving and knows how to drive safely at the limit (pushing the car on country roads to the point of traction loss) then DO NOT buy these, they will KILL you and others around you if its wet cold (8c or less) or damp.
If you have a 4wheel drive sports car (evo etc) then you can have some serious fun in these but ONLY if your 4 wheel drive and genuinely know how to save your car when these tyres snap off the grip as they let go very suddenly!
For anyone that drives slow/normal and never has to brake hard (people in the city) then buy these as they will last 20,000-30,000 miles.
I tried to wear them down as quickly as possible to change them and they just wouldnt die, i wheelspan everywhere i could and they just stick two fingers up at me!
I hope this review saves some lives, i never crashed on these tyres but i can see how the average joe will end up in a tree from not expecting the snap off from the grip and lack of it in the wet"
Here is another more objective one:
THIS is for those of you who are looking for a REAL genuine feedback of the NS2. There is just too many different feedback from many diversity of the general population. Each and every individuals may have different ratings and standards. What you are looking for is a feedback that will genuinely help you understand the nature of this tire from professional drivers.
This tire is suitable for easy going to mild drivers and small compact economy cars only. Not recommended for high performance vehicles.
Tested on FF and FR performance vehicles with REAL-TIME Professional drivers:
90 degree Cornering at 90~120km/h: Extremely Poor (Lost over 50% handling)
180 degree cornering at 40~80km/h: Extremely Poor (Lost over 70% handling)
Full Throttle Acceleration at 0km/h to 100km/h: Poor (screams like hell)
Full Braking from 100 to 0km/h: Poor (some screaming + ABS triggered)
TreadWear: Good (the better the wear, the poorer the handling)
Comfort/Noise: Poor (Don't expect comfortable quiet tires with these)
Additional Notes:
- Not recommended for performance to high performance vehicles.
- Not Recommended for Mid-Size Sedans to Large SUV.
- Not Recommended for Full-Circuit Track use.
- Recommended for vehicles with less than 120hp, or small compact size vehicles.
- Recommended for Easy Going to Average Drivers only.
After-all these are cheap for a reason.
Ali Tait
01-02-2013, 15:41
BTW, it's only the "Z" that is the speed rating, the "R" refers to the fact that the tyre has reinforced sidewalls. Makes more robust and able to carry more weight, a good thing in an estate IMHO.
Hi Marco,
Your tyre size is 245/35 R18. The 'ZR' is the speed rating of the tyre, which means they are ok for vehicles with a top speed of over 240Kph.
R18 means you have 18" rims - 22" would be ridiculous on a C class unless you want it to ride and handle like a skateboard!. the 18" refers to the diameter of the shoulders inside the wheel rim where the tyre bead sits, not the lip of the wheel rim.
I have to say that IMHO any current Chinese tyre isn't worthy of the car, and some are positively dangerous in the wet - replace them all asap!.
It's tempting just to fit another three Pirelli P-Zeros, as the one that's there now is virtually new!! Mmmm....
Marco.
That's a good idea - just check that the tread depth is within 2mm or so of a new tyre and put them on the steering axle. Ask your tyre fitter to check that they are the same version of p zero.
Cheers
Alex
Excellent advice, Alex. I think that's gonna be the plan! :)
Marco.
archiesdad
01-02-2013, 20:56
The last company I worked for used Chinese made Triangle tyres, these were so bad I would not have fitted them to a wheelbarrow!, little grip-wear rate was unreal-and sidewall flex that made cornering an adventure every time I turned the wheel, but they where cheap, all the beancounters cared.
My Honda gets the Bridgestones that were designed for it and SWMBO's Seat get Michelins from Costco when the offers are on although normal prices there are good too.
The comments are certainly interesting about Chinese tyres.
I don't doubt for one second that they're shit in comparison with 'proper' ones from premium brands, and the latter is certainly the way I'll be going, but as 3 out of the 4 tyres currently on my car are Chinese, I can't say that I've noticed any of the problems reported...
Mind you I don't drive like a rally driver, but then I'm also not 'Mr Sedate'!
Marco.
There was a very illuminating statement in the Evo 2012 performance tyre test.
It said that the best tyre was so much better than the worst in the wet braking test from 50mph that at the point the car reached a stop while wearing the Contis, the same car wearing the budget tyres was still doing 20mph!. That is a HUGE difference in deceleration.
The difference in braking distance was something like 25m, which is staggering. Save money elsewhere people!.
Cheers,
A.
Audioman
02-02-2013, 00:09
The comments are certainly interesting about Chinese tyres.
I don't doubt for one second that they're shit in comparison with 'proper' ones from premium brands, and the latter is certainly the way I'll be going, but as 3 out of the 4 tyres currently on my car are Chinese, I can't say that I've noticed any of the problems reported...
Mind you I don't drive like a rally driver, but then I'm also not 'Mr Sedate'!
Marco.
Now you've got me going about used car dealers. Someone selling a Merc (or any car) should not be putting Chinese tyres on them. This was likely the previous owner but on a car of this value? :mental: I used to put new Good Years on my old Toyota when it was probably worth little more than a pair of them. Safety first mate - like a GP car everything else depends on the tyres especially in the recent weather conditions.
Frankly I have little faith in most things Chinese - it was some shitty defective Chinese made part that tipped London Taxis in Coventry over the edge. I don't see many people running to buy MG motor output assembled at Longbridge. Buyers have more faith in Kia in that market sector.
All valid points, chaps. I have no intention of keeping the Chinese tyres and have decided to go for another three Pirelli P-Zeros to match the good one which is already on the car.
Makes sense, as I can save about £300 that way, rather than buying four Contis! :exactly:
Marco.
That sounds like the most sensible plan, Marco.
I was forced again last night to fill up with Shell V-Power diesel as my local BP keeps running out of Ultimate. Perhaps they have a small tank and demand has risen? Anyway, I'm happy to report that V-Power gives very smooth running and good pickup with strong, steady acceleration. The engine runs quietly, too. Perhaps not the ultimate (!) grunt of the BP, but it remains my second favourite fuel.
Nice one, Martin. I'll bear that in mind should I experience the same problem, although I have a couple of BP stations local to me to choose from, and I always try and keep the car with a full tank of petrol, so I top-up regularly. Is the V-Power any cheaper?
I've been meaning to do a comparison between the different types of premium diesel, as I have BP, ESSO and Shell garages all within easy driving distance, but I've been so blown away by the performance of BP Ultimate (like you say, the 'grunt' it gives is quite incredible), that I've just stuck with it! :)
Marco.
I think the V-Power at my local Shell was 151.9p and BP Ultimate is around 152p, but remember these are southern prices!
Yup, but they may be cheaper than I pay up here. I'd have to check.
It's bizarre - sometimes the further north you go, the dearer fuel gets! I find that to be the case when I'm up in Glasgow, or worse, in the north of Scotland, which is ironic, as that's where the oil rigs are! :doh:
Marco.
That's market forces at work. Scotland has few petrol stations (don't get caught around the Glencoe area late in the evening) so they ramp up their prices accordingly.
don't get caught around the Glencoe area late in the evening) .
Especially if your name's MacDonald...
I think the V-Power at my local Shell was 151.9p and BP Ultimate is around 152p, but remember these are southern prices!
Martin & marco try this with your supermarket diesel http://www.dieselrhino.co.uk/VWT/vwtoffer.html it dose work;)have being trying it for two weeks now
jon
I'm happy to try anything, John, but remain a little dubious. Ok, it's 4p per litre instead of the 10p uplift of the premium diesels, but you still have to add it to base diesel of unknown quality. Can it really make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? Have you tried it?
I'm happy to try anything, John, but remain a little dubious. Ok, it's 4p per litre instead of the 10p uplift of the premium diesels, but you still have to add it to base diesel of unknown quality. Can it really make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?
Simon suggested this earlier, but I'm equally dubious, especially when the combination of Millers (also a cetane enhancer) and BP Ultimate, although not cheap, is such a formidable one.
Like you say, the approach does seem a little 'arse about tit'. It's a bit like trying to make the finest Bouillabaisse from Birds Eye fish-fingers, and then at the last minute, stirring in some clams and monkfish and hoping for the best!
For me, it's far better to start from the position of using the finest ingredients, and taking things forward from there. I'm up for experimenting, though! :)
Marco.
Yep - Millers plus BP Ultimate = Rocket Power.
I'm happy to try anything, John, but remain a little dubious. Ok, it's 4p per litre instead of the 10p uplift of the premium diesels, but you still have to add it to base diesel of unknown quality. Can it really make a silk purse out of a sow's ear? Have you tried it?
Well yes:eyebrows: I did give the Bp diesel a go before i bought the diesel rhino ...I think it is just the same performance but with cheaper diesel;) the car drives very smoothly and goes like hell:D
jon
Rhino boosts the cetane by 6 points, depending on your car you may get worse performance if using it with BP ultimate or Shell V-power. Rhino is designed to work with standard 50 cetane diesel so you get the benefits of BP and Shell performance fuels but at a lower price....the other benefit for high milage cars is the cleaning of deposits from the injectors and cylinders....this alone may account for many reports of better performance.
I add acetone 100ml to each tankful and that takes care of keeping the fuel system clean as well as improving injector atomisation. It certainly helps even BP Ultimate to be smoother and with faster pickup. At your own discretion, of course, although I've done it pretty much for the last 10 years.
Rhino claims to remove water from fuel :rolleyes: - just how does it acheive that then :scratch: . Once in the tank there's only one wayt out (unless you drain the tank :eek: ).
Yeah, a lot of these additives seem to claim alot but not back anything up with measurments or give details on how it works.....now where have we heard that before.... :scratch: Oh yes I know! :lol:
Rhino claims more power but the dyno plot I read about on the suppliers tuned T4 van showed only a 4.7HP increase at the flywheel, but, given thats well within rolling road tolerences and well within temperature, humidity and atmospheric preasure variations etc its hard to give credit to the results, however, many many customers of Rhino say it works....sooo, maybe there is some substance to the claims.
AFAIK to remove water from diesel (all diesel has some water) I believe they use some form of demulsifier that 'drops' the water out of the fuel into the tank where is gets filterd out by a fuel separator.
Water in diesel in boats is a much more serious problem and can stop them dead. Bacteria in diesel can also be a problem on account of big tanks and low usage, whereby the fuel can be sitting there for a year or more. Putting additives into the tank is common practice and replacing the water separator filter annually is a must.
I add acetone 100ml to each tankful and that takes care of keeping the fuel system clean as well as improving injector atomisation.
Isn't that part of the job of the Millers, Martin, (not to mention the detergents already present inside BP Ultimate)?
Do you still feel it's necessary to add acetone on top of the Millers fuel treatment? I'm not sure I will add anything further to my car's fuel system than what I use already :)
Marco.
Covenant
14-02-2013, 11:53
I don't know if it's a coincidence but about six months after putting a fuel additive in my diesel car I had problems resulting in the fuel filter having to be replaced. It's a bit complicated in that it should have been replaced by the dealer at a service but wasn't. It cost £150 to do and the car is going fine now. In my car the fuel filter is difficult to get to so it was probably the mechanic being lazy. The filter was full of black gunge. I use the cheapest supermarket fuel I can get and am not going to change!
Probably because the additive shifted all the muck that builds up and the filter caught it. I think its a false economy to use cheap supermarket fuel, just my 2p worth...
+1. I've had my eyes opened with just how crap it is, compared with 'proper' fuel. Never again would I pollute my car's engine with the garbage :nono:
You wouldn't fill your body continually full of shit (junk food), so why do a similar thing to your car? Both need looking after properly to perform at their best!!
:exactly:
Marco.
Isn't that part of the job of the Millers, Martin, (not to mention the detergents already present inside BP Ultimate)?
The acetone does something that Millers doesn't. I don't put Millers in every tank but I do put acetone in. I carry two small plastic 100ml bottles in the car and fill them from a large 5l can that I buy from a boat chandlers. I think what I feel in the smoothness and incredible pickup is the acetone causing very fine atomisation of the diesel fuel enhancing its burn. I can certainly feel when I've stopped using it if I run out.
It works equally well with petrol.
Interesting... Perhaps next time I'm down you could let me try a spot in my car? :)
I'd certainly have a long enough journey back on the motorway to assess the 'before & after' effects! ;)
Marco.
Maybe buy a bottle of nail varnish remover to try it, check the label? I'd buy a clear product as you can't be sure what's in it but it's unlikely to be horse.
Equine-enhancing? More horse power? Neigh, shurely not.....
Marco.
Marco
I run one of these as my daily runabout for a couple of years.
Sport contact 5's are the best overall units I have run on them period.
Always run on either Shell or the BP ultimate, this gives much smoother driving, increased pick up and less smoke.
When I used the original 3 liter lump, with the remap and sprint booster I regularly obtained between 43-48mpg on a run @ 2250 rpm if you have the 7 speed box you will know what final drive ratio that equates too.
in gear times are where this car is at, it can manage sub 6 if you are good at launches, but the 60-110 times (race track only of course) are where this car excels
I have one now with a bigger lump in which generates around 800lbs of torque, great fun with M5's but no fun in the snow leave at home lol
You can take that unit up to around 280bhp safely and 448lbs of torque
I change the oil every 8000 miles regardless and use either Motul or Fuches 5/30W also would also advocate changing the fuel filter every 10K as well.
Just watch the front lower arms which do not seem to last long lol!
With the limiter out of the loop and at Snetterton I will peg the clock and return around 164mph.
A good all round tub
Hi Tony,
Most interesting...! Before we go any further, which "tub" are we talking about, mate? Are you saying that you have/had the same car as me? :)
Marco.
Interesting... Perhaps next time I'm down you could let me try a spot in my car? :)
Sure, that'll be a good test.
Maybe buy a bottle of nail varnish remover to try it, check the label? I'd buy a clear product as you can't be sure what's in it but it's unlikely to be horse.
No, don't!! Nail varnish remover is not pure acetone, it has gums in it which will do your injectors no good at all. If you're going to try it, use only pure acetone from boat chandleries and the like.
You'll also turn your car into a tart.
Marco.
Audioman
15-02-2013, 14:21
I'm having a laugh reading the comments here. Especially in regard to additives. There is no way of telling if these are really of benefit to car engines. Certainly in the old days a dose of Redex would clear out the system in an old banger quite effectively. What do the car manufacturers think about the use of such products when you have to make a claim for mechanical failure under warranty?
Surely modern Diesels are designed to run on the standard fuel unless you have a specialist high performance model. All fuels are made to basic standards which I'm sure that the engines are designed to run on. What evidence is there that all Supermarket fuel is inferior to the brands? In practice it is now quite hard to find Shell or BP garages in many areas. What guarantee is there that the fuel is consistent?
Now you go faster stripes Diesel boys :) - a 2 or 3 litre turbo diesel is pretty powerfull and has surprisingly good acceleration and will easily exceed the national speed limit. So I can't see the advantage of the enhanced fuels and additives for normal driving. Or are you guys part of that Street Racing burn up boys crowd that take over certain roads on a Sunday. :lol:
Paul.
So I can't see the advantage of the enhanced fuels and additives for normal driving.
On what basis are you making that statement, Paul? Armchair criticism is the easiest thing in the world to do but it won't get you much respect.
Have you tried driving a high performance big diesel? Even better, one like mine that has been remapped for high cetane fuels? Have you ever seen a car on a dyno generating maximum power - the noise alone is a scary thing and you'd remember if you had. To be able to view the power curves before and after is to learn lots that you won't learn from the comfort of your armchair.
I've spent over 10 years trying different fuels and additives in big petrol and diesel cars and I've learned a lot during the way (for instance, Redex isn't all that good). I certainly know what works and the difference in feel is very obvious.
Audioman
15-02-2013, 15:51
On what basis are you making that statement, Paul? Armchair criticism is the easiest thing in the world to do but it won't get you much respect.
Have you tried driving a high performance big diesel? Even better, one like mine that has been remapped for high cetane fuels? Have you ever seen a car on a dyno generating maximum power - the noise alone is a scary thing and you'd remember if you had. To be able to view the power curves before and after is to learn lots that you won't learn from the comfort of your armchair.
I've spent over 10 years trying different fuels and additives in big petrol and diesel cars and I've learned a lot during the way (for instance, Redex isn't all that good). I certainly know what works and the difference in feel is very obvious.
Martin.
Perhaps you missed the humorous element in my post. I did indicate that high Cetane fuels are relevant for large engines set for performance. Seriously though the science behind some of these additives is not obvious. They may apparently improve performance but are there unknown problems being caused down the line? I suppose it all depends to what mileage you keep the car for anything to become apparent.
However the only benefit I can see, given our roads aren't designed to be used as race tracks, could be improved MPG that more than offsets the extra cost. BTW last time I used fuel enhancers Redex was probably the only product out there :). No one's giving any answers as to why branded fuel should be a guarantee of superior quality. I think I have alternated roughly 50/50 between Shell and Morrison's since I've had my Passat 2.0 TDI and not noticed any obvious differences.
Paul.
I'm having a laugh reading the comments here. Especially in regard to additives. There is no way of telling if these are really of benefit to car engines. Certainly in the old days a dose of Redex would clear out the system in an old banger quite effectively. What do the car manufacturers think about the use of such products when you have to make a claim for mechanical failure under warranty?
Surely modern Diesels are designed to run on the standard fuel unless you have a specialist high performance model. All fuels are made to basic standards which I'm sure that the engines are designed to run on. What evidence is there that all Supermarket fuel is inferior to the brands? In practice it is now quite hard to find Shell or BP garages in many areas. What guarantee is there that the fuel is consistent?
Now you go faster stripes Diesel boys :) - a 2 or 3 litre turbo diesel is pretty powerfull and has surprisingly good acceleration and will easily exceed the national speed limit. So I can't see the advantage of the enhanced fuels and additives for normal driving. Or are you guys part of that Street Racing burn up boys crowd that take over certain roads on a Sunday. :lol:
Paul.
All fuel from the forecourt has additives! The base Cetane level for Diesel requires additives IE: Cetane enhancer for it to meet the minimum requirement... Supermarket stuff meets the minimum standard for Cetane and quality but it does have some additives, the branded stuff exceeds this with the 'max power' versions obviously. Millers has proven to work, here's a link back to an old forum I used to frequent often where the cleaning ability of Millers was highlighted: http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188065
For Rhino a similar test needs to made before Im 100% convinced but the anecdotal reports so far are very good.
Perhaps you missed the humorous element in my post
Yes, missed (hidden) smiley alert clearly :)
It's not about racetrack performance and I'm no boy racer, it's about having mechanical empathy and revelling in a machine that performs well. There's some of that in all of us here with our hi-fi systems, too. I would say that I 'make progress' - fast but always staying within the envelope of safety and my abilities.
As for your Passat, I could be uncharitable and suggest that VW diesels are a little 'agricultural' at best ;)
Yes, missed (hidden) smiley alert clearly :)
It's not about racetrack performance and I'm no boy racer, it's about having mechanical empathy and revelling in a machine that performs well. There's some of that in all of us here with our hi-fi systems, too. I would say that I 'make progress' - fast but always staying within the envelope of safety and my abilities.
As for your Passat, I could be uncharitable and suggest that VW diesels are a little 'agricultural' at best ;)
:eek: Martin dose that go for a audi as well?:D
jon
Audioman
15-02-2013, 18:52
Yes, missed (hidden) smiley alert clearly :)
It's not about racetrack performance and I'm no boy racer, it's about having mechanical empathy and revelling in a machine that performs well. There's some of that in all of us here with our hi-fi systems, too. I would say that I 'make progress' - fast but always staying within the envelope of safety and my abilities.
As for your Passat, I could be uncharitable and suggest that VW diesels are a little 'agricultural' at best ;)
VW diesels are pretty advanced nowadays. First to introduce Common Rail Engines. I could say a lot about badge snobbery though :). Don't BMW have the villain's favorite alarm system?
:eek: Martin dose that go for a audi as well?:D
jon
Since they use the same engines I assume Martin's answer would be yes.
Hi Paul,
All I can comment on is the difference that I can feel in the smoothness and responsiveness of my car's engine, after going from using Asda's own diesel, to BP Ultimate (with Millers cetane enhancer).
The sense of upgrade achieved was as obvious as when I went from an LP12 to a modified SL-1210... I.E. not subtle! ;)
It's not a top speed thing, but rather about acceleration and engine responsiveness: the sense of a near-instantaneous surge of power achieved with just a quick blip of the accelerator pedal - and that sense is heightened with the use of a premium diesel, such as BP Ultimate, particularly in conjunction with Millers cetane enhancer.
Furthermore, the engine runs notably smoother and is less noisy, especially at high speeds on motorways, so that there is a greater sense of 'gliding along on a pillow of air', but then part of that effect is a Merc thing, and why I love driving them so much, as they 'feel' very different to drive than your average car. BMWs are similar in that respect, but you tend to 'sense' the road more with those, which is why both types of car have their aficionados.
Anyway, you're entitled to be sceptical about the benefits of premium branded fuels, but all I can do is confirm the very real benefits I've experienced after using them, and state that once 'sampled' (with a high-performance car), there's no going back!! :exactly:
Marco.
I could say a lot about badge snobbery though :).
You could, but you'd be wrong in my case. I love BMW's superb engineering prowess.
Don't BMW have the villain's favorite alarm system?
Apparently so!
You could, but you'd be wrong in my case. I love BMW's superb engineering prowess.
Yes, that's why you have a Bushmaster DAC and modified SL-1210 in your system - you BIG BAD BADGE snob you!! :D
Marco.
Hi Paul,
All I can comment on is the difference that I can feel in the smoothness and responsiveness of my car's engine, after going from using Asda's own diesel, to BP Ultimate (with Millers cetane enhancer).
The sense of upgrade achieved was as obvious as when I went from an LP12 to a modified SL-1210... I.E. not subtle! ;)
It's not a top speed thing, but rather about acceleration and engine responsiveness: the sense of a near-instantaneous surge of power achieved with just a quick blip of the accelerator pedal - and that sense is heightened with the use of a premium diesel, such as BP Ultimate, particularly in conjunction with Millers cetane enhancer.
Furthermore, the engine runs notably smoother and is less noisy, especially at high speeds on motorways, so that there is a greater sense of 'gliding along on a pillow of air', but then part of that effect is a Merc thing, and why I love driving them so much, as they 'feel' very different to drive than your average car. BMWs are similar in that respect, but you tend to 'sense' the road more with those, which is why both types of car have their aficionados.
Anyway, you're entitled to be sceptical about the benefits of premium branded fuels, but all I can do is confirm the very real benefits I've experienced after using them, and state that once 'sampled' (with a high-performance car), there's no going back!! :exactly:
Marco.
+1;)I keep my fix in the boot:D
jon
Yes, that's why you have a Bushmaster DAC and modified SL-1210 in your system - you BIG BAD BADGE snob you!! :D
:rfl:
Interesting feedback and warning about Rhino over on the UK-MKIVS.net forum regarding using Cetane improvers with v-power where too much is a bad thing. Guy rolling road tested before and after and lost power, too high a cetane will loose you power, it need to be used with standard diesel.
That's the theory, Neal. However, in practice, adding Millers cetane enhancer to BP Ultimate (in my car) unquestionably further improves engine performance in all areas.
I cannot comment about Rhino and V-Power, as I haven't tried that combination yet :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
16-02-2013, 21:05
It's interesting reading this thread, funny how the tone and ebb and flow of it is exactly the same as a thread about say, someone's favourite vinyl spinner, and how convinced the various parties are about how this and that makes a DEFINATE improvement. :eek:
FWIW, I definitely notice a difference in the performance of my banger when I stick some premium in, but then it is a 3.0 V6 Alfa, which is fun even on the regular stuff. To answer an earlier comment, no, it's not all about boy racer stuff, but the car does pick up faster and is more responsive on the fancy stuff, and I do notice it when deciding to go for a wee jaunt along one of the many fabulous twisty roads I'm lucky enough to live nearby to, which makes the overall experience that little bit more fun and grin enducing! :)
Mark Grant
16-02-2013, 22:00
As for your Passat, I could be uncharitable and suggest that VW diesels are a little 'agricultural' at best ;)
The older 1.9 diesels did have the sound of a Massey Ferguson ;) but the newer two litre 16 valve diesels are surprisingly good, not far off the smaller BMW diesels.
Mark Grant
16-02-2013, 22:22
What do the car manufacturers think about the use of such products when you have to make a claim for mechanical failure under warranty?
Most likely a void warranty, not a problem unless something major goes wrong :eek:
Having suffered a spectacular total engine failure in a 3 litre BMW about a year ago (wife's car when I was driving it a little bit enthusiastic on my favourite county road near home :doh: ) I am much more wary of warranty issues and also wary of planting the right foot to the carpet.:eyebrows:
Now you go faster stripes Diesel boys :) - a 2 or 3 litre turbo diesel is pretty powerfull and has surprisingly good acceleration and will easily exceed the national speed limit. So I can't see the advantage of the enhanced fuels and additives for normal driving. Or are you guys part of that Street Racing burn up boys crowd that take over certain roads on a Sunday. :lol:
Paul.
I see what you are getting at but it is not the top speed it is the progress you can make with 200 to 300 horses available and all that torque.
So easy to nip past anything at any time safely and it is so addictive to drive something powerful enough to frighten yourself.
( I only have a 140 horse power VW caddy van now)
I see what you are getting at but it is not the top speed it is the progress you can make with 200 to 300 horses available and all that torque.
So easy to nip past anything at any time safely and it is so addictive to drive something powerful enough to frighten yourself.
Hehehehe... Exactly! And you know that, don't you, having been in my 'catapult' recently? :eyebrows:
Fancy a shot yourself next time? :)
Marco.
That's the theory, Neal. However, in practice, adding Millers cetane enhancer to BP Ultimate (in my car) unquestionably further improves engine performance in all areas.
I cannot comment about Rhino and V-Power, as I haven't tried that combination yet :)
Marco.
No theory about it Marco the guy published the before and after figures of taking the cetane level too far, it will be dependent on the engine and map but at some point adding too much cetane enhancer will reduce power.
Sure, Neal. However, that's not what is happening with my car. I'll let you know if the situation changes :)
Marco.
Interesting feedback and warning about Rhino over on the UK-MKIVS.net forum regarding using Cetane improvers with v-power where too much is a bad thing. Guy rolling road tested before and after and lost power, too high a cetane will loose you power, it need to be used with standard diesel.
That was more than likely with a diesel engine in standard tune. Many people report that just Ultimate and V-Power show no difference in their cars, let alone adding Millers. In mine, with the mapping I have, there is an incremental improvement with both the super-diesels and Millers.
That was more than likely with a diesel engine in standard tune.
As far as I know, the engine in my car is in standard tune, yet I can most definitely detect a significant increase in performance when using BP Ultimate with Millers, so I'm not sure it's that...
Perhaps it's just a compatibility thing? :)
Marco.
As far as I know, the engine in my car is in standard tune, yet I can most definitely detect a significant increase in performance when using BP Ultimate with Millers, so I'm not sure it's that...
Perhaps it's just a compatibility thing? :)
Marco.
Good engines like good fuel..simple;)..put crap in get crappy performance out:D
jon
As far as I know, the engine in my car is in standard tune
There are different levels of tune even in 'standard' models. It's all about bhp per litre. Yours is quite a high spec so I would expect it to respond better to good fuels. Frankly, all the German six and eight cylinder diesels are extremely refined these days.
Makes sense, I guess, Martin :)
Marco.
Ian Walker
18-02-2013, 08:26
You do know dont you chaps, that ALL the fuel companies tankers fill up from the same tanks although i'm told fuel from Tesco,Asda and Sainburys give you much more Horse power...........Trots off.:)
You do know dont you chaps, that ALL the fuel companies tankers fill up from the same tanks
Somehow, daftee, I don't think that would be legal. It also can't be the case, as the significant performance increases gained when using premium fuels (such as BP Ultimate) are very real, not imagined, and that of course wouldn't be the case if all the fuel was the same.
Marco.
The second bit was, but I'm not sure about the first part! ;)
Marco.
Audioman
18-02-2013, 09:39
Somehow, daftee, I don't think that would be legal. It also can't be the case, as the significant performance increases gained when using premium fuels (such as BP Ultimate) are very real, not imagined, and that of course wouldn't be the case if all the fuel was the same.
Marco.
The higher Octane fuels obviously come from a different tank than the standard ones. However given there are only a few refineries (remember concerns when one went bust recently) and a fair number of brands (inc supermarket) it is fair to assume that many share the same source. Not saying that Shell and BP don't have their own refineries but putting a branding on it doesn't mean it's different. They can call the additives in the premium fuels any name they want for marketing purposes but doesn't guarantee that they are different from one another.
Paul.
They can call the additives in the premium fuels any name they want for marketing purposes but doesn't guarantee that they are different from one another.
It does, if you can feel the difference in performance in your car, when you make the comparison! How many times do we have to state this fact before it sinks in...?? :rolleyes:
Marco.
I didn't make myself clear about my cetane comments earlier; I don't doubt the improved feel and smoothness of Ultimate + Millers, I've run (and still run) the same. If the standard car ECU mapping or after market re-map can make use of it then there is a real improvement, my comment was about taking the cetane level too far as this will loose you power wether your car has a standard map or aftermarket map...
Regarding where the fuel comes from, you would be surprised, this post was made on the singletrack forum a few years ago and I've read similar posts years earlier on other forums from guys who work at the fuel depots, so don't think your Ultimate or V-Power is something completely different other than the additives from the standard diesel stock. ;)
There are a handfull of refineries around the country owned by different companies (ie most of the fuel supplied to humberside/south yorks/lincs will come from Lindsey oil refinery at Grimsby owned by Total). They supply base Petroleum spirit (and other fuel oils) to terminals (again, any terminal could be owned by any oil company). Every local man and his tanker will fill up at that terminal. The majors usually have dispensers on the gantries so they can add their additive to the base Petroleum Spirit or Diesel at the terminal.
It's not quite as simple as that, because some companies will have their own storage elsewhere, then it all depends on the best price they can get. Sometimes they may send tankers to the nearest terminal, then other days use from their own storage. All the oil companies and oil distributors in Scotland, for example, will be using that same base stock from Grangemouth oil refinery. The same principle applies everywhere else, the nearest refinery will supply the majority of the stock, but in some parts of the country it could be coming from 2 refineries.
Did you know that there are only 12 refineries in the UK and, of those, only 1 in Scotland. The one in Scotland is at Grangemouth and it supplies 90% of fuel to Scotland (I only know this because I built a Diesel bunkering depot near there) I think it's BP owned but can't remember for sure.
It's worth having a gander at this: http://www.simplemotoring.co.uk/supermarket-vs-branded-fuels/#.USH9HqXKE-Y :)
Thanks for the clarification, Neal. Quite clearly, in terms of my own car, this is the case:
If the standard car ECU mapping or after market re-map can make use of it then there is a real improvement...
:exactly:
Regarding where the fuel comes from, you would be surprised, this post was made on the singletrack forum a few years ago and I've read similar posts years earlier on other forums from guys who work at the fuel depots, so don't think your Ultimate or V-Power is something completely different other than the additives from the standard diesel stock.
Thing is, I don't give a flying fook where it comes from (it could come out of a donkey's backside, for all I care). All that matters to me is that using a premium diesel provides my car with a genuine increase in engine performance, which it most certainly and undisputably does. Simples! :)
Marco.
It's worth having a gander at this: http://www.simplemotoring.co.uk/supermarket-vs-branded-fuels/#.USH9HqXKE-Y :)
Exactly, lots of other resourse pointing out the same, good quote:
The base fuel is the same for all companies – in fact, it usually comes from the same tanks at the local fuel refinery/distribution centre. What varies is the additives package that goes into the fuel. These additives packages are secret recipes of extra ingredients that help keep the engine clean and improve lubrication inside the engine cylinders.
Each fuel company has its own additives packages and these are different. So it is possible (but not common) for some drivers to feel that their car responds better to the additives used by one fuel manufacturer over those of another.
Currently I'm experimenting with the Rhino additive on a Revo Mapped PD130 Seat using standard forecourt Diesel, my feeling so far is low end pickup is better and its smoother than Ultimate alone, there seems to be less smoke at start up and on on-boost...MPG appears to have imptoved as well but only time will tell over many more miles...
It's worth having a gander at this: http://www.simplemotoring.co.uk/supermarket-vs-branded-fuels/#.USH9HqXKE-Y :)
Indeed... From the link:
Let’s start with the easy bit. Premium fuels, such as Shell V-Power and BP Ultimate are not the same as regular petrol or diesel fuels. They have a different, more sophisticated package of additives for cleaning and lubrication, and have a higher octane rating (petrol) or cetane rating (diesel).
Octane and cetane ratings describe the way a fuel burns inside an engine. Broadly speaking, a higher rating means a fuel will burn more efficiently and effectively inside your engine. This may improve performance and/or economy slightly – although not all drivers will see a noticeable difference.
Exactly - and I've got a feeling that those in the latter category are a little irked about that situation...
If you don't notice a difference, then buy a better car!! :D
;)
Marco.
Ian Walker
18-02-2013, 12:34
Somehow, daftee, I don't think that would be legal. It also can't be the case, as the significant performance increases gained when using premium fuels (such as BP Ultimate) are very real, not imagined, and that of course wouldn't be the case if all the fuel was the same.
Marco.
Well just pop down to your local refinery daftee and observe..
Lol... We've established now (if you read the above links) that the original source for the fuel may be the same, but what makes premium diesels, and other premium fuels, unquestionably different, are the additives used.
Besides, as I've already said, the proof of the pudding is in the using (and the comparing), so I know that the BP Ultimate diesel I use is far better than any supermarket fuel, in my car - and so that's all that matters!! :)
Others who use premium fuels in high-performance cars agree.
Marco.
I'm just gobsmacked this thread had the mileage in it TBH :scratch:
It's about cars, isn't it? Almost like denigrating each other's manhood :lol:
I'm just gobsmacked this thread had the mileage in it TBH :scratch:
Well it's been powered by BP Ultimate, innit? It's all that extra VVVVVRRRROOOOMMMM... :lol:
Marco.
Exactly, lots of other resourse pointing out the same, good quote:
The base fuel is the same for all companies – in fact, it usually comes from the same tanks at the local fuel refinery/distribution centre. What varies is the additives package that goes into the fuel. These additives packages are secret recipes of extra ingredients that help keep the engine clean and improve lubrication inside the engine cylinders.
Each fuel company has its own additives packages and these are different. So it is possible (but not common) for some drivers to feel that their car responds better to the additives used by one fuel manufacturer over those of another.
Currently I'm experimenting with the Rhino additive on a Revo Mapped PD130 Seat using standard forecourt Diesel, my feeling so far is low end pickup is better and its smoother than Ultimate alone, there seems to be less smoke at start up and on on-boost...MPG appears to have imptoved as well but only time will tell over many more miles...
Nice neal you have joyed the rhino club as well?;)
jon
Well it's been powered by BP Ultimate, innit? It's all that extra VVVVVRRRROOOOMMMM... :lol:
Marco.
:D :cool:
Nice neal you have joyed the rhino club as well?;)
jon
:D Well it's early days yet, still going through the 3-2-1 purge n clean routine, so won't really know for a few more miles yet...
We were talking about tyres here, as well as fuel additives. I'm happy to report that my new Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 2 265/30 R19 tyres which I bought at a special price from Black Circles are stupendously grippy in both wet and dry. I'm used to feeling the twitch of traction at the limit, and seeing my ABS light flicker in the dash, when I'm making progress with the Avons in winter. I can report that this virtually doesn't happen at all with the Goodyears in the same conditions.
They get a great press and yet are usually priced at Michelin levels which is why I avoided them (although I've used them on previous cars). They certainly give an added sense of security and I'm well pleased.
http://www.goodgrip.co.uk/images/products/goodyear_eaglef1asymmetricsuv__.jpg
Nice one, Martin - enjoy! I'm sticking with the P-Zeros, for the moment, which I've found are fab :)
On the subject of fuel, having tried other 'premium diesels' and got mixed results, I'm sticking with BP Ultimate (in conjunction with regular shots of Millers Diesel Ecomax), which in my car anyway, clearly gives the best engine performance and also fuel economy.
Marco.
Yes, agreed about BP Ultimate diesel. I've tried them all and I'm happy to report that the BP is substantially the best, followed by Shell V-Power.
I use occasional shots of Millers Diesel Ecomax and a regular 100ml dose of pure acetone in each tankful. My car is very happy and runs beautifully.
Mark Grant
24-04-2013, 17:26
There is a new one, Shell V-Power Nitro+ , the name sounds fast :) and look at that pump nozzle it's so bling :)
http://www.shell.co.uk/gbr/products-services/on-the-road/fuels/vpower/what-is-v-power-nitro-plus.html
( Happy here so far with Standard BP diesel + Millers on test - no more Morrisons diesel for me)
Another opportunity to sell something more expensive! (not you Mark!) We are getting great results from standard diesel and Diesel Rhino additive, well past the 3-2-1 priming cycles, on a 85K PD130, startup smoke is reduced a hell of a lot and uneven idle has gone...pick up from low and part throttle is waaay better and the car is smoother to rev...this is more than we achieved running Millars and any of the 'super' diesels together plus it works out cheaper. MPG appears to be up as well by about 3mpg. Car now needs a service so it will be interesting to see how it goes afterwards.
There is a new one, Shell V-Power Nitro+ , the name sounds fast and look at that pump nozzle it's so bling
http://www.shell.co.uk/gbr/products-services/on-the-road/fuels/vpower/what-is-v-power-nitro-plus.html
Interesting, Mark... I'll look out for that, try it, and compare it with BP Ultimate! :)
( Happy here so far with Standard BP diesel + Millers on test - no more Morrisons diesel for me)
What changed your mind, then - was it anything to do with this thread?
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-04-2013, 04:55
The new stuff is the same, just has some different additives.
Well, yes, I wouldn't expect it to turn into rocket fuel, lol, so it'll essentially be the same, but the different additives may indeed make it different - and possibly better... ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-04-2013, 10:38
Aye, maybe.
Best to suck it and see, although not literally... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-04-2013, 11:44
Haha aye.
On another note, anyone tried Terraclean? It's a new system where your engine is fed a very high purity fuel which is supposed to clean all deposits from the injection and fuel systems. I've read good things about it. Any info anyone?
For petrol or diesel cars?
Ali Tait
25-04-2013, 12:08
Both.
I'll check it out, although I maintain my own system cleaning with 100ml of acetone in each tankful.
Ali Tait
25-04-2013, 13:29
Apparently it will remove stuff that can't be removed any other way short of completely stripping the engine.
Ali Tait
25-04-2013, 13:32
Edd China was advertising it on the telly.
It looks, from the website, like it could be either brilliant or foo. Any independent reviews of the process?
Ali Tait
25-04-2013, 14:13
Just what I've found on the web. I do remember it being used on an episode of Wheeler Dealers several years ago, and if the results were not fudged, it made a huge difference to the emissions figures.
I think it was the episode with the 8 series beemer, but I could well be mistaken.
Mark Grant
27-04-2013, 11:44
What changed your mind, then - was it anything to do with this thread?
Marco.
Aye :)
In my 2012 VW caddy van with 2.0 common rail Diesel engine I always used Morrisons diesel.
Tried some Millers with it as Halfords was beside our local Morrisons.
Not sure if there was much difference, maybe a little bit more 'snappy'
Then I needed to fill up while on a long motorway journey and the garage was a BP, filled up with standard BP diesel with Millers added and after a while the average MPG on the dashboard appeared to be slightly higher than usual. :scratch:
The next day it did feel a little bit more responsive and a little bit more traction control kicking in when pulling out of junctions.( I hate that when the engine goes 'slack' for a second or two...)
I soon adapted to this with a slightly lighter right foot at junctions especially if damp roads.
So for me so far standard BP diesel with Millers is good.
probably about 6% or 7% savings in fuel consumption compared to Morrisons diesel on its own when driving steady.
Also put the same BP + millers in my wifes car a few weeks ago and took a photo of the average fuel consumption display on the dash as a reference before resetting it and will check it again next time it is filled up to see if there is any difference.
This was the Millers Ecomax
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_37 0465_langId_-1_categoryId_255221
Not sure how that compares to Diesel Rhino in price per litre of fuel treated or performance differences but I will try some one day.
Luckily for me a local garage closed and was relaunched as a BP garage and they are just about price tracking Morrisons :)
Gmanuk101
03-05-2013, 11:46
I've used that very same product in a HOnda Civic I used to own, it actually improved the car's MPG by about 5! must have been some crap built up somewhere being a derv.
I also used to put tesco 2 stroke oil in every fill up... 200ml to a 55 litre tank.
got rid of any black smoke from the exhausts and also made the engine smoother.
Just a small update to this thread... I've been using BP Ultimate diesel quite happily for months now, which my car has responded very well to. However, my local Shell station has recently got in V-Power Nitro+ diesel (as a recent upgrade to the standard V-Power), see here for details: http://www.shell.co.uk/gbr/products-services/on-the-road/fuels/vpower/what-is-v-power-nitro-plus.html
V-Power Nitro+ has a RON (octane) value of 99 (as opposed to the 97 RON of BP Ultimate), so along with Shell's claims that, I quote: "V-Power Nitro+ contains 99% of the same compounds found in the Shell V-Power race fuel, used by Ferrari." See here: http://s03.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/country/gbr/downloads/pdf/fuels/shell-vpower-nitro-plus-infographic-high-quality.pdf and also intrigued by some of the claims for its cleaning power, I decided to give it a go...
After the first tank-full my initial thoughts are that it seems to provide a slightly smoother ride, than that offered by BP Ultimate, although engine responsiveness is notably better (especially in the acceleration band, low down in the rev range, between gear changes), resulting in a bit more 'poke' on tap, when accelerating hard from a standing start. However, it's early days yet in my assessment, so we'll what happens after I've used 3-4 tank-fulls of the V-Power Nitro+, and then revert back to BP Ultimate diesel.
Furthermore, when my next oil change is due (in the next 2000 miles), I'm going to try some Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5W-30 Premium Fully Synthetic Engine Oil, see here: http://www.epc.shell.com/docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_Kingdom_Shell_Helix_Ultra_ Extra_5W-30_(en-GB)_TDS.pdf and here: http://www.shellhelix.co.uk/Shell-Helix-Ultra-Data.pdf This will replace my usual Castrol Edge.
Therefore, we will see what difference (if any) that makes. This Shell oil is also now the officially approved choice for Mercedes cars, although not that this has influenced me any more than it did when their approved choice was Mobil 1, and I still continued to use Castrol Edge... I've always liked using Castrol oils in my cars and motorbikes, way back to the days of GTX and the 'R' racing oil for 2-strokes, as I've continually found it to perform exceptionally well - so the Helix Ultra Extra will have to go some to displace it!
Anyway, if anyone is curious, I shall report back with the results of both in due course :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
03-10-2013, 11:45
I believe the Nitro + is the same as the original V Power, just with some different cleaning additives.
Fith Gear did a comparative test of fancy fuels using a rolling road but I think only one of them actually added any extra horsepower compared to the supernmarket fuel and it wasn't much - about 3 BHP
Ali Tait
03-10-2013, 12:16
Fifth Gear did some tests with various things last week to what improved bhp figures on a secondhand car. The biggest improvement (13BHP) was from a fuel system cleaner added to the petrol. Seems they really do work.
Yup, Martin. Here's the vid:
gQghB4asSnI
The clear difference (even the Optimax) was shown to make to high-performance engines was one of the reasons I decided to try the Nitro+. I'm certainly impressed with it so far, and seems rather better than the old V-Power, which I found inferior to BP Ultimate. I'm also not sure if the standard V-Power was 99 RON. I suspect it was a little less (perhaps 98?)
It could be that I'm noticing even more of a difference now since I've fitted a TDI tuning box, thus upping the engine's BHP from 224, to 285bhp. I guess that, just as a hi-fi system with sufficient resolution can show up differences with things like cable changes, and cause them to be significant, so is the engine in a performance car that's tuned to respond to differences in the fuels and lubricants it receives :)
We'll see what happens when I fit the BRABUS pack to the Merc [http://www.brabus.com/en/raster.php?page=4&sub=5&modell=3644&klasse=149&kategorie=9], which is supposed to be a REAL animal! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Fifth Gear did some tests with various things last week to what improved bhp figures on a secondhand car. The biggest improvement (13BHP) was from a fuel system cleaner added to the petrol. Seems they really do work.
Which one was it, Ali?
Marco.
Ali Tait
03-10-2013, 13:08
Redex I think.
Is this what you're referring to, mate:
WQN-0zvZNbY
If so, it's certainly interesting, especially as I recently tried some STP Complete Fuel System Cleaner (diesel version) in the Merc, and definitely noticed an improvement: http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&productId=869347&catalogId=10151
Even though I've been using 'fancy fuels' now for a while, I decided to ensure that the whole fuel system was clean (as I've no idea what type of fuel or oil the previous owner put into the car), and then maintain that cleanliness by continuing to use BP Ultimate diesel (and now more recently Shell V-Power Nitro+).
On the odd occasion when I use a Cetane improver (just for that extra little boost), I've found that STP Diesel Treatment is just as good as Millers, at half the price! Martin T, take note :)
The video was also interesting in that it proves how much you can regain lost power and/or maintain existing power by simply ensuring that your car's engine is kept in tip-top condition, by regular servicing. I've certainly recently experienced the benefits of fitting new air and fuel filters, together with new glow plugs and relay to my car (all of which was needing done, as the previous owner had let things slide somewhat in those areas), so it all needed sorting.
Once done, I could really FEEL the difference that the cumulative effect of those things made to engine performance. After all, cars need regular maintenance and servicing, just like people!! ;)
Marco.
Ali Tait
03-10-2013, 13:49
Aye, that's the one. Have you thought about having a Terraclean done?
Ali Tait
03-10-2013, 13:54
Check out their website -
http://www.terraclean.co.uk/
Been thinking about doing my 166.
Ali Tait
03-10-2013, 14:02
Vid here when it was used on Wheeler Dealers. A great result if it wasn't fudged-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiViPKIoG68
Just a small update to this thread... I've been using BP Ultimate diesel quite happily for months now, which my car has responded very well to. However, my local Shell station has recently got in V-Power Nitro+ diesel (as a recent upgrade to the standard V-Power), see here for details: http://www.shell.co.uk/gbr/products-services/on-the-road/fuels/vpower/what-is-v-power-nitro-plus.html
V-Power Nitro+ has a RON (octane) value of 99 (as opposed to the 97 RON of BP Ultimate), so along with Shell's claims that, I quote: "V-Power Nitro+ contains 99% of the same compounds found in the Shell V-Power race fuel, used by Ferrari." See here: http://s03.static-shell.com/content/dam/shell-new/local/country/gbr/downloads/pdf/fuels/shell-vpower-nitro-plus-infographic-high-quality.pdf and also intrigued by some of the claims for its cleaning power, I decided to give it a go...
After the first tank-full my initial thoughts are that it seems to provide a slightly smoother ride, than that offered by BP Ultimate, although engine responsiveness is notably better (especially in the acceleration band, low down in the rev range, between gear changes), resulting in a bit more 'poke' on tap, when accelerating hard from a standing start. However, it's early days yet in my assessment, so we'll what happens after I've used 3-4 tank-fulls of the V-Power Nitro+, and then revert back to BP Ultimate diesel.
Furthermore, when my next oil change is due (in the next 2000 miles), I'm going to try some Shell Helix Diesel Ultra Extra 5W-30 Premium Fully Synthetic Engine Oil, see here: http://www.shellhelix.co.uk/Shell-Helix-Diesel-Ultra-Data.pdf and here:http://www.epc.shell.com/docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_United_Kingdom_Shell_Helix_Diesel _Ultra_AB-L_5W-30_(en-GB)_TDS.pdf This will replace my usual Castrol Edge.
Therefore, we will see what difference (if any) that makes. This Shell oil is also now the officially approved choice for Mercedes cars, although not that this has influenced me any more than it did when their approved choice was Mobil 1, and I still continued to use Castrol Edge... I've always liked using Castrol oils in my cars and motorbikes, way back to the days of GTX and the 'R' racing oil for 2-strokes, as I've continually found it to perform exceptionally well - so the Helix Ultra Extra will have to go some to displace it!
Anyway, if anyone is curious, I shall report back with the results of both in due course :)
Marco.
You have a diesel though Marco, no? RON (Octane) is for Petrol....the equivalent rating for diesel is CETANE and it works differently to RON. Both the Octane and CETANE rating for Nitro+ is the same as is was for VPower.
You have a diesel though Marco, no? RON (Octane) is for Petrol....the equivalent rating for diesel is CETANE and it works differently to RON. Both the Octane and CETANE rating for Nitro+ is the same as is was for VPower.
Hi Neal,
Yup, sorry. My boo-boo! :doh:
However, I did correctly refer to Cetane, when discussing enhancers. Regarding the bit I've highlighted, are you 100% sure, and if so, do you have any links confirming that fact (and exactly what the Cetane rating is, compared with that of BP Ultimate diesel, as that is my current benchmark)?
Regardless, and I don't know whether it's because I've recently fitted the tuning box, I'm definitely getting better results now with Shell V-Power Nitro+ diesel, than I am with BP Ultimate, or indeed I have done with standard V-Power diesel. Perhaps its the effect of the former's claimed greater cleaning power? Dunno... Anyway, it works!! :)
Marco.
I'll have a look at the STP stuff, although Millers Diesel Ecomax is a known good additive which I have used for years. I don't use it for every fill-up, I alternate with two-stroke mineral oil, which makes for a very silky smooth engine.
As for BP v Shell, even if the new Shell is better than the BP I'm likely to stick with BP as I get double Nectar points for Ultimate and another double for paying with my Amex Nectar card. So quadruple points on every fill-up :)
Vid here when it was used on Wheeler Dealers. A great result if it wasn't fudged-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiViPKIoG68
Most interresting, matey! I'll certainly give that some serious consideration :)
Marco.
I'll have a look at the STP stuff, although Millers Diesel Ecomax is a known good additive which I have used for years. I don't use it for every fill-up, I alternate with two-stroke mineral oil, which makes for a very silky smooth engine.
Defo give it a go, Martin and see what you think.
"As for BP v Shell, even if the new Shell is better than the BP I'm likely to stick with BP as I get double Nectar points for Ultimate and another double for paying with my Amex Nectar card. So quadruple points on every fill-up" :)
Lol... That seems like a no-brainer! Do you use your Nectar points a lot? With a Shell Driver's Club card, once you have enough points, you can get vouchers for money off of your fuel.
Much as I like collecting Nectar points, money off fuel is more attractive, especially with the amount of fuel my car uses on short-ish journeys (i.e. running Del to and from college, which is a return mileage of around 44 miles). It's great on long distances though, which it was designed for.
Therefore, with the fuel vouchers and the fact that my car seems to perform better on Nitro+, I'm probably going to become a Shell fanboy :D
Just for fun, maybe give the new V-Power a go and see what you think of it, purely in performance terms?
Marco.
anthonyTD
03-10-2013, 15:12
One of the main benefits from using some of the higher grade Diesel variants is cleaner running, leading to much less build up of soot and gunge in key areas such as inlet manifolds, and EGR valves etc...
A...
The Black Adder
03-10-2013, 15:57
I use the ultimate stuff in the Mini... Although I did try it in the Audi (2.7 TDi V6) but it didn't really do much. But the Mini seems to love it, smoother running and noticeable better MPG.
I would be careful with additives though, ask your dealership if it's good to use. A friend of mind had a Merc and used to use the Redex stuff. After a few years of using it the fuel filter inner housing started break up and he had a real job getting them to fix it under warranty. Redex shouldn't rot or break down any kind of plastics used in that part of the engine so he put it down to a fault in design with that particular fuel system.
One of the main benefits from using some of the higher grade Diesel variants is cleaner running, leading to much less build up of soot and gunge in key areas such as inlet manifolds, and EGR valves etc...
A...
Do you put any of the 'fancy stuff' in your Audi? :)
Marco.
I would be careful with additives though, ask your dealership if it's good to use. A friend of mind had a Merc and used to use the Redex stuff. After a few years of using it the fuel filter inner housing started break up and he had a real job getting them to fix it under warranty. Redex shouldn't rot or break down any kind of plastics used in that part of the engine so he put it down to a fault in design with that particular fuel system.
Sorry to hear that, Joe. When I spoke with my local Mercedes dealership, they were pretty non-committal with regard to the efficacy of fuel additives (I doubt that they would risk endorsing them), although they did recommend the use of BP Ultimate. Like Martin, I only use a Cetane booster occasionally, so I doubt it will cause any long-term problems :)
Marco.
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