tc 7510 mods [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

robyonekenoby

19-03-2009, 20:25

Hi folks,

I wanna post my mod to this well known dac

replaced psu caps with 3 panasonic FM 2200 uF
replaced 1716 decoupling cap with sanyo OSCON SP 100 uF 10V + .33 uF MKT
replaced opamp decoupling cap with rubycon ZA (ultra low ESR) 100uF 35V + .33 uF MKT and the cap behind with one panasonic FM 1000 uF
added 2.2 uF MKT to bypass both 7810 and 7805
replaced opamp with AD8620
replaced opamp output cap with mundorf mcap 4.7 uF 400V
replaced opamp input cap with mundord mcap 2.2 uF + rubycon ZA 22uF 35V
replaced opamp FB caps (C5 and C6) with 1nF MKT; I've had to increase value from the original 220pF to 1nF to smooth out the over brilliant and sharp ad8620 sound signature

the result?

coupled with my DIY amp based on tripath TA2020

AMAZING !!!

deep, warm and rock solid bass, clear and open midrange, super detailed highs

the sound stage is spectacular, I can not just listen the music, but also look at the instruments materialized in the air, loudspeaker simply disappear
hours listening at volume high enough to disturb neighbour without any ear fatigue, just an unlimited pleasure

for the first time in my life classical music make sense to my ears, is alive, full of energy

I've just a question for you experienced guys: I replaced also the ceramic cap above the opamp with a .22uF MKT; is probably the V+ V- bypass I guess, but I'm not sure about the effect of different capacity

the larger the better or whatelse?

James G

23-03-2009, 04:05

Roby, I love what you've done with it! I bet it does sound great. I wish I could give you advise on your question, but I'm just taking my first steps into DIY. Your mods are much more inspired than mine. Well, here's a bump anyways. :)

Would you be so kind as to maybe add the pcb labels to the parts you changed for a newbie like me? For instance, I'm not sure about the location of the 1716 decoupling cap. Also, we love photos, if you have any you'd like to post. Thanks!

robyonekenoby

23-03-2009, 12:54

Sorry I don't remember the number on PCB, I'll check next time I reopen the cabinet to make some new mods (thinking to replace all polyester with Wima film and foil)

Anyway it's easy to identify the capacitor to replace: is the only small electrolytic (black, hermei brand) beside the 1716 chip

I prefer don't post any picture because after many soldering & desoldering, destroyed and rebuilt pcb tracks, capacitor leads in middle air, the result is not a nice seeing :lolsign:

James G

23-03-2009, 14:24

Anyway it's easy to identify the capacitor to replace: is the only small electrolytic (black, hermei brand) beside the 1716 chip

Ahh, ok. I know which one you're talking about now. Thanks.

I prefer don't post any picture because after many soldering & desoldering, destroyed and rebuilt pcb tracks, capacitor leads in middle air, the result is not a nice seeing :lolsign:

I know what you mean. Mine is getting that way too. I'm the guy that made the "wrecked my Beresford" thread after all. :(

:scratch:It's just that I've suddenly taken a keen interest in all this stuff, and I just can't let it alone. Guess I just need to have patience.

James G

26-03-2009, 03:51

When you say "replaced opamp input cap with mundord mcap 2.2 uF + rubycon ZA 22uF 35V", how exactly do you implement that? Do you just solder both caps together on each side? Why would you need to add the poly and the lytic together?

The opamp input caps are EC4, EC5 right? The ones below the opamp?

Sorry for so many questions.

robyonekenoby

27-03-2009, 15:57

exactly, the two tiny lytics below the opamp, but pay attention, there are 4 caps below the opamp, the two inner are power decoupling caps, the two outer are the signal input coupling cap, the stock is 22uF hermei

As everybody know, lytics are not good for coupling (except MAYBE blackgate and elna), a good polypropilene film is a big improvement on every aspect

First I replaced them with two mundorf mcap 2.2 uF, but I discovered the capacitance is too small and I've lost bass weight, so I put in parallel the two rubycon 22uF to increase capacitance and restore bass extension

With this combination I have good detail in midrange and highs plus tight and deep bass

But I'm wondering the little lytics are introducing a minimum amount of distortion anyway, so I'm going to replace everything with single mcap 10uF

Also I've decided to replace the output caps, swap the mundorf for Audyn MKP plus film and foil

Tweaking hifi I've learned that replace signal coupling caps (also tweeter cap in speaker crossover) is the most effective way to improve sound quality

The second best is replace power decoupling caps for much lower ESR

James G

28-03-2009, 02:05

Thanks Roby, you're a champ for explaining that to me. So running the polys in parallel restores frequencies lost by the lytics! Nice.

I'm going to the electronics store today to see what I can find.

FireFly

28-03-2009, 15:23

What is difference between 7510 and 7520 models?

For op-amp rolling check link bellow. I agree 110% with this.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/little-dot-mk1-opamp-rolling-304261/

Sign-up at www.linear.com and ask for some free samples
LT1364 is good choice, way better than LM4562.

robyonekenoby

28-03-2009, 22:00

Today I replaced the 2.2uF mcap + 22uF rubycon ZA with a single mcap 4.7uF for the opamp input coupling

Well, the bass is a bit less heavy but still acceptable (I'm convinced 10uF is the right value here) but all traces of harshness are gone now, so I could remove the 1nF caps in the output filter

So in my opinion the AD8620 is not a 'metallic and harsh opamp' as many people suggest, but being a very fast, accurate and precise opamp, you must pay attention to what you feed in, because it accurately reproduce and amplifies also HF noise and distortion coming from input electrolytics caps, while a slower opamp like the 4558 acts like a low pass filter

Would be my pleasure if some expert of this forum comments this statement

Maybe I'm wrong, but my ears told me I climbed another step up to the nirvana :)

leo

29-03-2009, 00:01

Maybe I'm wrong, but my ears told me I climbed another step up to the nirvana :)

I don't think anybody could argue with that, as long as your ears are happy :cool:

NRG

29-03-2009, 01:52

Exactly Leo!

Opamps are very subjective and cct / implementation dependant as long as you are happy then no argument...however...sweeping statements such as X opamp is better than Y and sweeps all before it should be taken with a large pinch of salt! ;) ....IMHO!

James G

29-03-2009, 07:03

I went to the store but could not find any Mundorfs. What I could find in that capacitance in poly-film was huge with massive, thick posts! I couldn't visualize how to fit them in. So I think I'll have to wait on that part until I get some better experience.

What do you guys think of using tantalums instead for opamp decoupling? If it's ok, should I use the same capacitance as the aluminum 'lytics?

robyonekenoby

29-03-2009, 11:41

James, as I know, lytics have always higher ESR than film caps, so to address this problem is common practice to use more capacitance than required, the bigger the cap the lower the ESR

Film caps are huge compared to lytics, film and foil (the best) are even bigger, too much to fit in the small tc7510 case, so I went for mundorf metallized polypropilene film

I arranged the two big caps off the opamp zone, in an area where there is room to accomodate them, and connected via two solid copper wire (taken from a sat cable core) soldered in the original caps pcb holes

Make a google search for mundorf you can find many web reseller

Given my experience, I suggest to remove every lytics from the signal path

Some folks claim tantalum are not good for signal coupling too, but I've never tried

As I learned from Cyril Bateman articles "Capacitor sound", nothing beat film caps for signal coupling

Polypropilene is better than Polyester due to its lower dielectric dissipation, film and foil give an order of magnitude less dissipation than metallized film, and increasing voltage rating reduce impedance

My mundorf are 400V rated

NRG

29-03-2009, 14:02

I don't believe ESR is a necessary consideration for a coupling cap. Using a larger or smaller (smaller if going from 'lytic to film as film caps are physically larger but have less capacitance and therefore may not fit) value of capacitance may cause an audible roll off in the frequency band at some point IE: a 100uF lytic with 10K o/p res forms a high pass filter at well under 1Hz or DC in practical terms but replacing the cap with a say a 1uF film cap causes the -3db point to move to 16Hz...

Now that by itself may not be noticeable but the o/p res is in parallel with the input of the next stage (pre-amp) and if low enough it may become audible. That's not saying it will but its just to highlight what possible effect swapping caps with different values can have.

Also there are film caps and there are 'film' caps. Other caps can and do beat film caps for coupling...For instance, from bitter experience, I would never use a Solen in a low voltage coupling situation, they sound gray and dull, they are best used in 'speaker xovers for which they where designed...a good 'lytic like a BlackGate will outperform the Solen in this case. Measurement wise the Solen is better but listening wise its not...

While I'm no fan of putting 'lytics in the signal path sometimes its unavoidable and sometimes a really good 'lytic can sound better than a film cap.

Also Paper in oil caps are preferred by some for valve amp coupling, they 'add' to the sound and are pleasing on the ear, film caps can sound very clean and incisive in this application, some may prefer that presentation... and really that's what is comes down to...personal preference and practicality.

robyonekenoby

29-03-2009, 16:07

In my mind, ESR should have some effect on the cap max slew rate, and the slew rate is a very important factor in the ability to reproduce the more subtle details in the music signal and notes attack transient

The lower the ESR, the higher the slew rate, I guess

In an electrolytic, the charge speed transfer is affected by ion drift in the electrolytic media, it's a kind of electro chemical reaction, and also the reaction speed is conditioned by temperature
Also ion drift cause noise, it's the source oh 'hash' audible especially in vocalist 'S' and 'C', and absorb energy, the dissipation factor of an electrolytic is 3 orders of magnitude greater then a film a cap

A film cap is faster because it's a pure electrostatic charge transfer, and so it gives a far greater slew rate

This is just my idea about how things work, but still experimenting to catch the ultimate truth

Can you explain better why an high voltage film cap is not well suited for coupling application like I/V stage in the dac?

I'm very interested in this argument

leo

29-03-2009, 17:43

Theres way too much to discuss regarding caps, Q factor, the way ESR varies with frequency etc
Higher ESR usually has more losses, of course average ESR also has its uses in some apps

Using a electrolytic for coupling in the signal path is ok as long as its got correct DC bias

I think Tants value alters with DC and add distortion, I've not really used Tants in coupling before tbh just in certain decoupling apps

Ali Tait

30-03-2009, 08:00

Hi-Fi Collective is a good source of Mundorf,and lots of other stuff too.

robyonekenoby

30-03-2009, 08:41

When I swapped the two hermei input coupling caps with rubycon ZA, first I noticed a brighter sound, soo bright I had to increase cap value in the output filter from 220pF to 1nF to restore a correct balance

Probably the cause is in the ZA ESR going lower increasing the frequency
So I've learned a lesson: an ultra low ESR cap while is good for decoupling, is not for coupling

When I replaced rubycon with mundorf mcap 4.7uF, the sound became so sweet and balanced that I removed the output filter cap; the presentation now is super clear and detailed while not fatiguing, vocalist and instrument are absolutely alive and present

If I put 10uF I probably get more warmth and bass depth, I'll try soon

Removing the output filter cap introduced another problem: I can hear HF background noise, not a white noise, but a kind of near ultrasound

I don't want to suppress it restoring output filter because while the noise is in the audible frequency, suppressing it I suppress also some music information

I want to understand where the noise comes from and suppress from the source

I've tried to supply power with a battery and nothing change, so the source is not the wall power supply

I added MKP 0.1uF 400V caps to the 7810 exit and nothing change

I'm wondering if the noise comes from a ground plane oscillation, I wanna try to desolder tracks going from DAC to headphone opamp

NRG

30-03-2009, 19:10

As I learnt the ZA does need some running in, it's also 'leaky' according to Leo, I doubt its the ESR.

What o/p filtering caps? Do you mean the ceramic bypass caps? The o/p cap is there to block DC and it forms a high pass filter with the o/p res. If the opamp where driven by a balanced supply the op cap could be eliminated in theory, maybe a small offset would remain... you would have to find out if your next stage has an input blocking cap.... I think Leo runs his DAC's without an o/p cap.

I can also hear a HF hash noise on my 7510 without the ceramic cap but its only with the volume turned right up, otherwise it's quiet as a mouse and sound better for it IMHO.

leo

30-03-2009, 20:11

Yes, I don't need coupling caps in the Sabre, The AYA can also be used without a coupling cap depending which output stage I use;) The common base AD844 needs a cap, the discrete I/V don't, DC is taken care of in the nulling circuit

If I had to use a ceramic cap it would be COG/NPO, if the values can't be had in those I'd find another alternative to ceramic disc types, I hate those bloody things!

leo

30-03-2009, 20:12

I think he means the filter cap for NFB resistor for the op-amp ?

robyonekenoby

30-03-2009, 20:26

I gave 100 hours of running in to the rubycons, and the sound became very warm in the bass and low midrange, but highs were still too edgy, I had to replace the 220 pF ceramic caps with 1nF to avoid ear fatigue, but in this way highs were too flat and died

For output filter I mean the two tiny smd ceramic caps on both side of the opamp, not the dc blocking caps (actually mundorf mcap 2.2uF ;)); I suppose they are part of a low pass filter, because I noticed increasing capacitance the cut frequency decrease and highs are suppressed

before removing them, the noise was very subtle, and clearly audible just at full volume, but now is audible also during a music pause at normal listening volume

I don't wanna restore them because the sound now is sooooo detailed, soooo sweet and crystalline, soooo everything that I absolutely don't wanna go back

Must find the source for this noise

Please somebody could help me ? :confused:

robyonekenoby

30-03-2009, 20:50

Add some extra reports

with the rubycon ZA in input and 1nF in the opamp FB cap, the sound is sweet, but vocalist and some instruments like sax and violin loose some life, are not really there yet

swapping rubycon for mundorf polyprop film, the sound become too laid back
first try I halved the FB cap to 500 pF: less laid back, but in the highs dynamic is compressed, a little harsh and grainy

removing the FB cap the miracle: everything comes to life like never before, without ANY trace of harshness

... except for the hiss noise :scratch:

leo

30-03-2009, 20:55

I presume its the caps that are mentioned to be replaced with MKP types in the MOD21 part2? , increasing those caps is going to lower bandwidth
Have a look on scope, 1nf is far too much tbh, this goes across the NFB resistor for the op-amp

I'd refit the 220pf and try an alternative to the Rubycon caps

leo

30-03-2009, 21:05

What op-amp you using btw

robyonekenoby

31-03-2009, 07:10

AD8620

input 4.7uF mundorf mcap (next 10uF)
output 3.3uF Audyn MKP Plus

opamp power decoupling rubycon ZA 100uF (I'd like 220 but they don't fit in that position)

1716 power decoupling OSCON SP 100uF

disconnected legs to and from the headphone opamp

also I added 0.1uF MKP 400V to the 7810

robyonekenoby

31-03-2009, 20:32

The noise doesn't come from I/V stage opamp: I've just tried to break signal lines between opamp and dac, and the noise desappear; remain just the typical very low hiss, barely audible

So the source must be located in the dac section; the noise I'm talking about is a kind of 'fiiiiiii' very very high frequency, at the edge of audible spectrum

leo

31-03-2009, 21:09

Probably the HF garbage coming out of the dac chip, its why you need filters

robyonekenoby

01-04-2009, 15:52

It's a sad news, because since the HF noise is audible, suppressing it means also suppress music information for the same bandwidth

robyonekenoby

01-04-2009, 17:56

I had to restore filter caps

After one hour listening at medium volume, the amp start clipping :(

so scaring!!!!!

probably in the noise there is an ultrasound component, not audible but deadly for the amp (and tweeter too)

so in the end I restored 500pF, and now things seems to work well

hope to have not damaged my tweeters .....

chrism

17-04-2009, 16:19

Just swapped the opamp to the THS4032 which was a bit tricky to do. Tried really hard to follow Stan's method but the new opamp just would not stick so had to use a little solder. Did not add the 100nF decoupling cap though.

Sound wise, it's only been in a few hours but the highs are a little smoother and the depth of the soundstage greater than before.

Will report back after a week or so of running in.

Regards

Chris

chrism

18-04-2009, 15:03

Listened last night and the THS4032 really is a fantastic upgrade. Had another listen this morning and after about 10 mins got the dreaded crackle from one speaker. Switched the lot off and tried again afer about 3 hours and no crackle.

I suspect that the opamp is failing when hot. Not sure if this is just the one I have or typical of this amp - any thoughts?

Thought that I might just have a once over looking at my the soldering and add the decoupling cap just incase its my poor workmanship.

Regards

Chris

leo

18-04-2009, 16:29

More than likely suffering from instability , it may be on the edge so can burst into instability at any time causing it to over heat, continued overheating will damage the chip permanently increasing noise

Go over your soldering with a magnifying glass, any dodgy solder joints may be causing intermittent contact , more chance of intermittent contact after it gets warm/hot

Get that bypass cap across pin4 and 8;) see if it helps

Also do not heat up the legs too much, this can cause damage

chrism

19-04-2009, 13:46

Hi Leo,

Added the decoupling cap to leg 4 and 8 and had the DAC running for 24 hours. Good news, the problem appears to have been corrected (not sure why this helps but it does appear to).

Interested in the Mod21 Part 2 (Wima FKP2's to C5 and C6) and wondered what this mod does to the sound? I am looking to just sharpen the bass a little - it's strong and tuneful but a tad smeared (making heavy bass lines sound a little slow) and wondered if the 21 part helps here.

Regards

Chris

jon1

19-04-2009, 21:18

chrism

20-04-2009, 12:15

Thanks jon.

For the Mod 21 Pt 2 I noticed that Stan suggested Wima FKP2 220pf/63v or 100v. Is this the way to go or are the results bettered with an alternative?

Not certain which way round the Wima's go as I can't see any markings on them - can they go either way or is there a + /- direction?

Any help greatfully accepted.

Regards

NRG

20-04-2009, 12:57

Either way...

chrism

20-04-2009, 13:43

Thanks again jon.

What about input psu caps whilst I am at it - I noticed that someone has used Nichicon 4700 - 25v ones laid on their sides but not sure if any benefit was gained from the mod. Any thoughts?

Regards

Chris

jon1

20-04-2009, 19:44

jon1

20-04-2009, 19:48

Thanks again Jon.

What about input psu caps whilst I am at it - I noticed that someone has used Nichicon 4700 - 25v ones laid on their sides but not sure if any benefit was gained from the mod. Any thoughts?

Regards

Chris

Chris..... I have not touch them as of yet..happy with the SQ i have at this moment in time

jon

chrism

21-04-2009, 15:53

Sorry to keep asking for help.

Could anyone point me in the right direction for those Nichicon Gold 4700 uf / 25v caps used on the input DC supply by one of you chaps?

Fancy trying them but can't find where to buy them (RS does not have them and Farnell appear to want a min £20.00 order).

Regards

Chris

StanleyB

21-04-2009, 16:38

Try ebay iem 280272015831 instead.Just keep in mind that you need to give the DAC at least 15 seconds to charge up the cap the first time you plug it into the mains, otherwise the DAC will automatically switch off again. Also, due to the higher energy content the 4 input LEDs may light up on switch on. But just press any of the input selectors and that gets sorted.
I have them fitted to two test units and the same type of caps were used in the TC-7510+.

chrism

21-04-2009, 18:14

Hi Stan,

Thanks for the info, they really look the part.

Do I go for one 10,000uf/16v and wire link the existing holes where the second cap was?

Are there any ebay companies doing the Wima FKP2's as I have to buy 10 of them if I use RS.

Thanks again.

Chris

leo

21-04-2009, 19:10

When you say link out, do you mean a link across + and - where the old cap was? if so , No as it'll short the supply rail out:)

If you live in the UK Maplin sell the Wima's http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=98156

StanleyB

21-04-2009, 19:12

You'll find the 10000uF fits perfectly in the middle two holes of which one is the -of one of the existing caps and the other is the + of the other existing cap.

I got my WIMA caps from Maplin
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?menuno=12469

Stan

chrism

22-04-2009, 07:53

Thanks Stan and Leo,

Gone for the one you have tried Stan and will use the middle two holes leaving the outer two as just holes. Could you spell out which side is + ve just so I don't cause a minor explosion and wake my neighbours!

Should have thought about Maplin's so thanks again.

Really enjoying the THS4032 mod and well worth the effort.

Regards

Chris

StanleyB

22-04-2009, 08:11

Could you spell out which side is + ve just so I don't cause a minor explosion and wake my neighbours!
The white stripe on the caps is the - side. So the plus side is the one without the stripe...

chrism

22-04-2009, 09:20

Hi Stan,

Looking at EC15-1 and 2 with the twin 2200/25v caps in (I hope that I am looking at the right caps!) the holes are front to back so I am not certain which two the new 10000/16 single cap would go across. I can see that both -ve holes are at the back of the board nearest the DC socket.

Sorry to go on and take your time but I know what will happen if I get this wrong.

Regards

Chris

leo

22-04-2009, 12:17

Presuming its a TC-7510 you have
If both of the original 2200uf caps are in parallel just fit the new single 10'000uf one in either EC15-1 or 2

The most important bit is to be sure the + and - are NOT reversed
If the new 10'000uf caps legs are spaced out wider than the originals so their not a direct drop in the holes you can carefully bend/form the legs so they'll fit

leo

22-04-2009, 12:23

BTW, on some pcb's I've worked on which use largish value caps , sometimes they have another set of holes to allow alternative caps with wider or shorter spaced legs to be fitted.
I don't know if these dacs have the same

chrism

22-04-2009, 13:05

Hi Leo,

No I only have two sets of holes for the existing 2200/25 caps. So it looks like I will just leave one set of holes open and fit the new cap to the other (or leave one 2200 in place and rig the new 10000/16 to the other?). Unfortunately the new cap only has 6 and 10mm leads so I may have to solder a bit of wire them to lengthen them.

Regards

Chris

leo

22-04-2009, 13:29

I'd take out both 2200uf, a single 10'000uf is more than enough

Problem with extending legs is that they may drop off once you start heating them up onto the pcb pads so be careful

I don't suppose the spacing of the legs is wide enough for you to fit +v of cap leg into EC15-1 +v hole and -v of cap leg into EC15-2 -v hole?

StanleyB

22-04-2009, 14:41

I don't suppose the spacing of the legs is wide enough for you to fit +v of cap leg into EC15-1 +v hole and -v of cap leg into EC15-2 -v hole?
That's exactly how the PCB was designed for... My take on it is that if it isn't obvious, don't do the mod.

chrism

22-04-2009, 14:53

Sorry Stan I had not ment to get you going, I really appreciate the time you spend with us mere mortals.

I was a little confused with your explanation of using the middle holes as there are none. When I have the cap I was going to see if it fitted as Leo's suggestion prior to bodging!

Hope that you don't mind me contributing to all the fun.

Regards

Chris

leo

22-04-2009, 15:18

I had an idea its what he mean't earlier :)

I think Stans just concerned incase folks damage their dac, I'd imagine he aleady receives a few mails from folks after a mistake they did with mods.

TBH I'd only recommend mods to those that can fault find, it only takes a small error to cause lots of problems.
I've repaired stuff before where people have put certain components in the wrong way, its not usually pretty;)

chrism

22-04-2009, 15:27

Hi Leo,

Point taken - everyone interested in modding has to start somewhere, even the top lads!

Regards

Chris

robyonekenoby

23-04-2009, 12:24

Last update

finally I reached a nice and probably definitive configuration on my mods

all tantalum caps around pcm1716 and cs8414 swapped for oscon sp
dac output coupling audyn plus (polyprop film&foil) 6.8uF
opamp ad8620
opamp bypass rubycon ZA 100uF + 100nF polyester
feedback loop filter cap 220 pF wima mkp2
opamp output coupling audyn plus 3.3uF

absolutely the greatest result, everything is right, from deep bass to extreme high, soundstage, presence and not fatiguing

the last big jump was swapping two mundorf mkp (metallized film) for film foil in the dac output coupling: deeper and tighter bass, more balanced and refined highs, more presence and less fatigue

The absolute superiority in clarity, transparency and definition of film&foil caps really worth every penny they cost, save money in coupling cap is a bad business, for few tens euros you loose the full potentiality of your system

of course size is an issue, but I've found a simple and reliable solution: I aligned the caps on the case top, with legs going down vertical inside holes drilled in the top

Legs are so thick that bending them below the top is enough to firmly fasten caps without any other fastener; this expensive caps provide also fashion casing, with elengant golden letters, so the results is quite elengant also

Ali Tait

23-04-2009, 17:05

Agreed about coupling caps,though my experience is in valve amps.I like SCR teflon and Audionote coppers.Both great caps.

robyonekenoby

23-04-2009, 19:18

Yeah, but you are talking about very expensive caps; for me in this case the law of diminishing return start to make sense

anyway, I'd like to try them :eyebrows:

Ali Tait

23-04-2009, 19:26

I guess it's a matter of perspective.NOS valves can be very pricey,as can output transformers etc.Against such prices,30 or 40 quid is not that much really.Still,looks a lot for a little plastic round thing! :)

robyonekenoby

23-04-2009, 20:23

I saw an interesting DIY project about tube output stage, lampizator I guess

No experience with tubes, but I'm very tempted, could be my next frontier ;)

PJPro

30-04-2009, 18:25

Stanley recommends a 12V, 5A, switched mode power supply (from Maplins) as a potential upgrade. Does the 7510 really need this much juice? If not, what is the requirement in terms of current?

StanleyB

30-04-2009, 22:00

Stanley recommends a 12V, 5A, switched mode power supply (from Maplins) as a potential upgrade. Does the 7510 really need this much juice? If not, what is the requirement in terms of current?
I assume it is the 5A capability that leads you to make that conclusion? It never even crossed mind. A better choice than the Maplin's is an upgrade to the TC-7520 power supply. The DAC only needs less than 300mA.

jkeny

01-05-2009, 17:51

I just did some mods to a friends 7510:
- replaced output caps with Blackgate std 100uf 50V
- removed parallel ceramic caps
- replaced op-amp PS caps with Panasonic FC 100uF 100V
- solder linked out R11 & R14
- changed C5 & C6 to 200pF polystyrene
- left the 4558 op-amp be

He sensed that the volume may have decreased - is there any possible reason for this?

I've warned him that the Blackgates may take 1-2 weeks to break in but I don't know if this is what's being experienced here?

PJPro

01-05-2009, 19:13

I assume it is the 5A capability that leads you to make that conclusion? It never even crossed mind. A better choice than the Maplin's is an upgrade to the TC-7520 power supply. The DAC only needs less than 300mA.
Is the TC-7520 PS linear? I've been to your site and can only find the PS mentioned in relation to the TC-7520. Do you sell them separately?

The reason I'm asking these questions is that I'd like to build a linear power supply for my TC-7510. I'm thinking about the Young-Jung Power Supply (http://tangentsoft.net/elec/yjps/). But the YJPS can't really handle current over 330mA.

Can you recommend another?

jkeny

01-05-2009, 19:50

PJPro,
Here's some to look into just for a start:
http://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/
http://sjostromaudio.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=27

chrism

02-05-2009, 08:43

Ok have received the 10,000uf/16v cap to replace the 2x2200 uf/25v ones at EC15-1 and 2. The Samwha cap legs are fairly narrow and do not appear long enough to span across 15-1 +ve to 15-2 -ve as I had thought.

I think I have two solutions:

1. Solder extension wires to the new cap or 2. Fit the new cap in the EC15-1 position leaving the second 2200 alone.

Any thoughts gratefully received before I wade in.

PS I am modding a TC 7510 6/4 to save any confusion.

Regards

Chris

chrism

02-05-2009, 10:00

Hi,

Sorted it by bodging!

Filed the flat legs down on the new cap and shaped them into pins and fitted it into EC15- 1 position and left the other 2200uf in place.

Well it works and is playing happily and at the moment. Does not sound different at the moment but probably needs to be left on for a couple of days to know for sure.

Regards

Chris

jkeny

02-05-2009, 10:01

The standard advice for all PS issues is to keep the leads short so on this basis you should solder in the cap. You're also probably better off with 2 smaller caps (2*4700uf) than one large one (10,000uf) for reasons of lower ESR!

Edit: oops cross post

jkeny

04-05-2009, 10:52

OK, my friend that i did the mods for says there is a definite distortion in the mids - I'm trying to determine what is most likely causing this after my mods: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=43846&postcount=64
Has anybody else encountered this problem?

I suspect it may be the polystyrene feedback caps in C5 & C6? But I'm also wondering about the change to these caps without changing the op-amp - I see that someone has had to change this because of a new AD8620 op-amp but I haven't changed the op-amp

replaced opamp FB caps (C5 and C6) with 1nF MKT; I've had to increase value from the original 220pF to 1nF to smooth out the over brilliant and sharp ad8620 sound signature

Rich 10

05-07-2009, 18:05

Another quick question on the C5/6 change. I did the Mod 21 pt 1&2 including the change to LM4562. Noticeable improvement. This was my first SMD soldering attempt so I was pleased. However, I do not want to risk any more and damage the board. Do the caps changes make much difference?

StanleyB

05-07-2009, 20:51

You can remove C5/C6, then solder a 100nF between pin 4 and 8 of the LM4562 in order to keep the opamp stable.
If you got any of that brown gunge from the soldering attempt all over the PCB in the area you worked on, get some white spirit and a few cotton buds and carefully clean up the mess. It makes a difference on the heights.

STan

Rich 10

06-07-2009, 05:26

Thanks for the reply. So leaving the original surface mount caps in place is not a good idea then?

StanleyB

06-07-2009, 06:31

You can leave them in, or try the mod I suggested. Do a 'before and after' listening session to see if you can hear a difference. Pay attention to wind and string instruments.

STan

Rich 10

06-07-2009, 16:17

Thanks again. I will also make sure everything is really clean from flux residue as you suggested.

StanleyB

13-07-2009, 18:34

I have made some changes to my site at www.beresford.me and started off with adding details of the WM8716 mod for the TC-7510 for those who are interested.

I found a pic at the same time of my first prototype build of the TC-7510+, which I then changed to the TC-7520. Might be of interest to those who have been reading on some forums how I am just a rebadger:lol:

http://www.beresford.me/images/mods/TC-7520A.jpg

leo

13-07-2009, 18:43

Thats dead smart Stan! I'm impressed:smoking:

I love to see home etched pcb's

chrism

14-07-2009, 17:25

freddiecas

14-07-2009, 17:36

Hi Stan,
I see you have just posted a wire mod applicable for the 1716 on your site, joining pin 15 to +ve etc. What does this do to the output of the dac? I'm curious thanks :)

StanleyB

14-07-2009, 17:47

Hi Stan,
I see you have just posted a wire mod applicable for the 1716 on your site, joining pin 15 to +ve etc. What does this do to the output of the dac? I'm curious thanks :)
If I tell you, I'll have to kill you afterward just to make sure you don't disclose it to any other DAC manufacturer:eyebrows:.

StanleyB

14-07-2009, 18:08

Hi Stan,

Did the wire mod as shown on the new web page yesterday and liked the change to the sound. I detected a bit clearer treble and more depth to the sound.

Is it general concensus that we can remove C5/C6 on the 4032 with the 100nF between pin 4 and 8 installed?

I would like to go for the WM8716 mod also but not sure if the DAC is a straight swap for the PCM 1716 on the 7510.

Regards

Chris

1. Glad you liked the change after the mod. Some suggestions that I stopped extracting more from the TC-7510 are therefore quickly dispelled;).

2. The LM4562MA (surface mount type) is the one to go for in that position due to RF issues. You can then remove those caps, but solder a 100nF between pins 4 and 8 of the 4562. You can also change R18 & R19 to 10K 1/8Watt metal type resistor in that case. This gives you a bit more gain and dynamic range. 12K works sometimes on some musical tastes.

3. If you add those wire links as in the mod the WM8716 is a straight swap.

I use a heavy bodied Stanley knife to press litely on each IC pin till I hear a slight click. That indicates that the pin has been cut. After you have cut through each pin, lift the IC out. Now glide the tip of a hot soldering iron over each of the cut pin ( one at a time!!) that is still stuck with solder on the PCB. This will lift the pin off the PCB. Glide the iron away from the other pins next to it, not towards the other pins! Otherwise they'll stick together.!!!
Next just place the new WM8716 right over the PCB and carefully rest a fine tipped iron for not more than 5 seconds on pin 1, and then on pin 15.
Check that the other pins are all aligned over the correct track space on the PCB. If they are, carefully rest the iron one each remaining pin one by one for not more than 5 seconds. I myself use 3 seconds as my safety guide.

If you do it this way you won't need to use any solder at any stage. And the operation will be hard to distinguish from a surface mount machine.
I recommend using a table magnifier for this job, and with a lot of lighting.

Stan

freddiecas

14-07-2009, 20:55

If I tell you, I'll have to kill you afterward just to make sure you don't disclose it to any other DAC manufacturer:eyebrows:.

ok, I'll arrange a cemetary plot! :lolsign:

chrism

15-07-2009, 07:26

1. Glad you liked the change after the mod. Some suggestions that I stopped extracting more from the TC-7510 are therefore quickly dispelled;).

2. The LM4562MA (surface mount type) is the one to go for in that position due to RF issues. You can then remove those caps, but solder a 100nF between pins 4 and 8 of the 4562. You can also change R18 & R19 to 10K 1/8Watt metal type resistor in that case. This gives you a bit more gain and dynamic range. 12K works sometimes on some musical tastes.

3. If you add those wire links as in the mod the WM8716 is a straight swap.

I use a heavy bodied Stanley knife to press litely on each IC pin till I hear a slight click. That indicates that the pin has been cut. After you have cut through each pin, lift the IC out. Now glide the tip of a hot soldering iron over each of the cut pin ( one at a time!!) that is still stuck with solder on the PCB. This will lift the pin off the PCB. Glide the iron away from the other pins next to it, not towards the other pins! Otherwise they'll stick together.!!!
Next just place the new WM8716 right over the PCB and carefully rest a fine tipped iron for not more than 5 seconds on pin 1, and then on pin 15.
Check that the other pins are all aligned over the correct track space on the PCB. If they are, carefully rest the iron one each remaining pin one by one for not more than 5 seconds. I myself use 3 seconds as my safety guide.

If you do it this way you won't need to use any solder at any stage. And the operation will be hard to distinguish from a surface mount machine.
I recommend using a table magnifier for this job, and with a lot of lighting.

Stan

Thanks again Stan.

I have already gone for the 4032 so I will keep C5/C6 as advised. Will have a go at R18/19 though.

Thought about using a hot air gun for the WM 8716 as I have a friend who has one.

Don't know how you do it for the money! ;)

lovejoy

23-07-2009, 06:49

Anyone know of a good source for WM8716 chips?

I ordered a couple from nikko-electronics.co.uk last week, but they now tell me they're out of stock until the end of the month. I'm itching to try one in my 7520 now that I've invested the money in a nice soldering station.

NRG

23-07-2009, 07:15

Farnell but theres a minimum order value.....

http://uk.farnell.com/wolfson-microelectronics/wm8716seds/24bit-dac-192khz-stereo-8716/dp/1354193

lovejoy

23-07-2009, 07:32

Thanks for that Neal. They're a good bit cheaper than nikko as well. I think I shall cancel the order and re-place with Farnell seeing as they have them in stock. I'll order a load of them to make up the minimum quantity and that way I can mod all of my friends 7510s/20s as well ;).

NRG

23-07-2009, 08:41

Cool! If your going to do that and have a 'spare' I'll certainly take one off your hands. :)

StanleyB

23-07-2009, 09:23

I'll order a load of them to make up the minimum quantity and that way I can mod all of my friends 7510s/20s as well ;).
Don't forget to do the additional wiring mod on the TC-7510 if you fit the WM8716.

Stan

lovejoy

23-07-2009, 09:40

StanleyB

23-07-2009, 09:57

Will do Stan, thanks for that.

I had just been looking at the wire mod for the 7510 on your site and was thinking of just doing the mod, then I persuaded myself to go the whole hog and just order some chips. I'm going to do the 7520 first as that's a straight swap, then if I like what that does, I'll go back and do the 7510.
If there is enough interest, I might do a special 'mod' price for those who are skilled enough to uprate a TC-7510 with the WM8716, and would like to do just that.
The TC-7510 with the WM8716 and LM4562MA plus Maplin pSU sounded better than the DAC1 when I tested one a few months back. I ended up selling it for £200 to the DAC1 owner:lol:.

Anyone interested in converting a TC-7510 from stock, just PM or email me for a 'mod' price. I can even do it without the power supply if you already have a PSU.

Stan

DaveK

23-07-2009, 10:37

Anyone interested in converting a TC-7510 from stock, just PM or email me for a 'mod' price. I can even do it without the power supply if you already have a PSU.

Stan

Hi Stan,
I know that I have indirectly asked you this question before but I'm from Yorkshire - sometimes we're a bit stubborn ;). If you are offering a 7510 upgrade service any chance you'll be offering one for the 7520, PLEASE?
Cheers,

StanleyB

23-07-2009, 10:55

Hi Stan,
I know that I have indirectly asked you this question before but I'm from Yorkshire - sometimes we're a bit stubborn ;). If you are offering a 7510 upgrade service any chance you'll be offering one for the 7520, PLEASE?
Cheers,
Hi Dave,

I am not offering an upgrade service. Not enough hours in a day to do everything old chap:). And there are no doubt a few people out there who could use the extra income from doing mods.
I am offering the TC-7510 at a special price to those who are interested in buying one with the intention of modifying it.

I leave the upgrade service to anyone or any other company who are interested in that line of business. I can even add their details on my web site if it is sent to me.

Stan

Stratmangler

23-07-2009, 11:38

Hi Stan

I'm going to give the wire mod a go tonight (assuming that I can scrounge some hook-up wire off a pal this afternoon). Would you anticipate the usual (very) long run-in time that all the previous mods took, or will the changes to be expected be pretty well there from the off ?

Chris:)

StanleyB

23-07-2009, 11:47

I'm going to give the wire mod a go tonight (assuming that I can scrounge some hook-up wire off a pal this afternoon). Would you anticipate the usual (very) long run-in time that all the previous mods took, or will the changes to be expected be pretty well there from the off ?

The results are noticeable within 15 minutes. Don't forget you need two pieces of wire. Soldering the one to pin 15 of the PCM1716 is a magnifying glass job!

Stan