View Full Version : Small Secondary Speakers
I'm thinking of building a small pair of secondary speakers for my computer-based system, and to perform show duties as my main pair are immovable.
I'm thinking of LS3/5a copies and am looking at these items:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160855698603?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150894512532?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Any comments or experience of these?
Secondary system: Windows 8 desktop PC, optical feed to Caiman DAC, Mini-T amp.
If it's any help to you, an old ex-colleague and friend has just bought some Stirling HS88 speakers (under £700 built I believe), which, apart from the screw-on cabinet backs and the lack of BBC royalties paid, are identical to the LS3/5A V2, being calibrated in exactly the same way. He's absolutely over the moon with them and rates them higher than the originals, which he still has a soft spot for. Doug has also suggested that he's never seen a pair of originals meet the spec, as the drivers have drifted off over the decades.
The drivers Doug uses lack the "quack" and iffy top end the old B110 drivers suffer from and the tweeters lack the spit and tinsel that characterised the T27 in almost all it's uses as a main tweeter. I think the bass unit saw service in the original Harbeth P3's and it was excellent in this role, going louder more cleanly than the Harbeth 3/5A's with which I compared them directly.
Give Doug a ring and discuss your requirements with him. He's another goodie I understand and you should get the hang of him with a call or two.
Good luck...
dantheman91
22-01-2013, 14:15
Keesonic Kubs. Suprising little things and wont break the bank.
If I were setting up such as system I'd go for the cute little Mission 760i speakers. Vifa D19 tweeter (as used on Snell / Audio Note speakers), front ported and quite easy to find on eBay. Pay no more than £50. :)
Covenant
22-01-2013, 14:52
If I were setting up such as system I'd go for the cute little Mission 760i speakers. Vifa D19 tweeter (as used on Snell / Audio Note speakers), front ported and quite easy to find on eBay. Pay no more than £50. :)
Agreed. I got the 780SE's off ebay for £35 and they are fine for computer duties
Dingdong
22-01-2013, 16:04
How's about a small pair of Ushers?
walpurgis
22-01-2013, 18:22
I'd second that Mission 780 SE (first series) recommendation. Remarkable little speakers with a big punch. I had mine years ago and I keep toying with the idea of tracking down another pair. One of the few Hi-Fi items I still really miss. They make the LS3/5a sound pretty weedy.
The Grand Wazoo
22-01-2013, 18:51
Martin actually said he wanted to build some speakers guys!
I'd think for about £400, you'd be doing OK Martin - I'm pretty sure you could move them on for that or thereabouts if they proved to not be the thing for you. LS3/5a's have significant weaknesses as I've no doubt you absolutely must know. As a proper main hi-fi loudspeaker I couldn't live with them myself, but on stands either side of a desk, fed from a decent computer system, you must be using them in an purpose close to the one they were designed for. In that application, they could sound great, I'd think.
Yes, thanks Chris, I know all about LS3/5a weaknesses and my computer usage, as you suggest, is very near-field (about 0.5m). At that proximity, they should have great neutrality, fine detail and punch above their weight. I was hoping that the Stirling kit with its up-to-date drivers would outperform both the B110's slight veiling in the midrange and the T27's cool and zingy treble (I know both as I used to run Cambridge R40 speakers many years ago).
If I tell you that I am using a venerable pair of Videotone Minimax 2 speakers at the moment, that should set the scene for small monitors of higher quality. So I guess I'm asking if anyone has actually heard the Stirlings and what they think of them.
Interesting idea, Martin. Good luck with it! :)
Marco.
Should you consider letting the Minimax's go Martin could I get first dibs please? :eyebrows:
The Grand Wazoo
22-01-2013, 19:20
Sorry, yes - I was just thinking aloud really Martin - the main point of my post was to remind people that you didn't want recommendations for built speakers.
He-he, they'd be a bit smaller than the AR monsters I have either side of my desk at the moment (on stands - the desk wouldn't take the weight!)
oscarsaudio
22-01-2013, 20:08
how about a single full range driver design something like the Onken's (planet 10/diyaudio)
He-he, they'd be a bit smaller than the AR monsters I have either side of my desk at the moment
I've just looked them up :eek:
walpurgis
22-01-2013, 20:40
If you fancy small full range units, these are nice. Good manufacturer. I've bought from this seller and had good, friendly service.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aucharm-4-inch-Fullrange-Speaker-Matched-Pair-/251148650533?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3a79a04825
how about a single full range driver design something like the Onken's (planet 10/diyaudio)
Unknown quantity and the information is sketchy and tricky to find. Another possibility is a Fostex driver in a small cabinet like these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/speaker-box-Fostex-FE-127-pair-/160922266622?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D11%26meid%3D5061981094312263195%26pid%3D100 011%26prg%3D1005%26rk%3D5%26sd%3D160679409752%26
However, the driver is discontinued and, again, they are an unknown quantity to me. At least I know the LS3/5a well.
If you fancy small full range units, these are nice.
Another interesting idea, thanks Geoff.
Should you consider letting the Minimax's go Martin could I get first dibs please? :eyebrows:
If I could be persuaded to part with them ;)
I wouldn't blame you for wanting to hang onto them (what am I saying???) :D
Now then, the Fostex FF125WK looks like a fab 5" driver, full range and designed for a small reflex enclosure. Requiring no crossover does appeal from an efficiency and signal purity point of view.
http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/fostex-ff125wk-917-p.asp
I've not heard many Fostex driven speakers and they've all sounded different!
Stratmangler
22-01-2013, 22:17
Looks to be a bit fierce (and peaky) in the presence band
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/store/images/Image/FF125WK-curve.png
Yep, but then speaker response curves rarely look good. Here's the Stirling LS3/5a frequency response:
http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/666SB35fig2.jpg
Dingdong
23-01-2013, 09:55
There's a nice pair of Tannoy Mini Autographs on ebay. Nice if you like that sort of thing.
spendorman
23-01-2013, 10:31
How about these, should be good with the Falcon history and experience:
http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/ls3-5a/falcon-ls35a-mini-monitor.html
How about these, should be good with the Falcon history and experience
Now that's interesting, thanks Alex.
Those little Tannoys will give you ear-ache unless they're tamed with a fruity and soft amp to drive them...
Have any of you EVER compared the likes of spitchy old MiSSSSSSSSion 760's and 780's (SE or otherwise) and Keesonik Kubs with the likes of a good original LS3/5A? The latter on domestic launch were so much better than anything anywhere near their size it seems daft to even contemplate the ghastly Missions with inadequate crossovers and nassssty little tweeter implentation. Times has moved on and the plots of the Stirlings were averaged out in a room with a 2db lift in the mid bass I think from memory (the P3ESR's have a similar bass bump and their review seemed to discuss that the room didn't help this aspect).
Like I said, give Doug Stirling a phone before ordering anything, as he'll give you the low-down on exactly what the kit offers. Got to be better than AVI Neutron 5's :lol:
Covenant
23-01-2013, 13:39
Those little Tannoys will give you ear-ache unless they're tamed with a fruity and soft amp to drive them...
Have any of you EVER compared the likes of spitchy old MiSSSSSSSSion 760's and 780's (SE or otherwise) and Keesonik Kubs with the likes of a good original LS3/5A? The latter on domestic launch were so much better than anything anywhere near their size it seems daft to even contemplate the ghastly Missions with inadequate crossovers and nassssty little tweeter implentation. Times has moved on and the plots of the Stirlings were averaged out in a room with a 2db lift in the mid bass I think from memory (the P3ESR's have a similar bass bump and their review seemed to discuss that the room didn't help this aspect).
Like I said, give Doug Stirling a phone before ordering anything, as he'll give you the low-down on exactly what the kit offers. Got to be better than AVI Neutron 5's :lol:
Well, I have never been so insulted in all my life, spitchy mission speakers indeed. (Don't know what it is but it doesn't sound nice) LOADS of people on here like them.
I am flouncing out of here :argument:
Dingdong
23-01-2013, 14:56
Those little Tannoys will give you ear-ache unless they're tamed with a fruity and soft amp to drive them...
Pah!!
Again, have you listened to them? Bigger proper modern Tannoys are one thing, but the babies? The little Autographs do look fun though when they're not playing.
I sold Missions for many years and was subjected to 760's, 780's and the Se models for their entire production life. I always preferred their models with bigger bass units I'm afraid (700LE and 781 from memory of around this period) although I accept they wouldn't really be suitable for desktop mounting due to too much undamped bass possibly..
Dingdong
23-01-2013, 18:14
Again, have you listened to them?
Yes.
Dingdong
23-01-2013, 19:11
Good :)
Yes they were. ;)
daytona600
23-01-2013, 20:41
. So I guess I'm asking if anyone has actually heard the Stirlings and what they think of them.[/QUOTE]
martin i use stirling broadcast v2 on my desktop , with a mytek dsd 192 dac/pre & 300b 9wpc monos , also in free space on custom tripod stands
superb speakers , liquid mids & imaging
Seen these used mainly in asia at the end of money no object systems
Martin would you consider doing a pair of small 3.5 inch to 4 inch full range drivers?
In a ported or vented box?
Martin would you consider doing a pair of small 3.5 inch to 4 inch full range drivers?
In a ported or vented box?
You may just like it.
In the UK, Ted Jordan is still beavering away at this very thing with consistent results. I doubt you'd get the lovely "BBC Blend" of virtues, but the sound would be more direct and precise I reckon. However, there'd be far more demands on the driving system to "get it right," as any distortion or harshness further back would be rather ruthlessly revealed or even exaggerated, if you see what I mean..
Martin would you consider doing a pair of small 3.5 inch to 4 inch full range drivers?
Yes I am - in fact I'm still looking with interest at the Fostex full range drivers and a small ported box - probably the 5" driver.
My thanks again for all the contributions and ideas which were all carefully investigated. I decided that, since these will be second speakers, and since I've always wanted to investigate this method, I would select a single-driver small speaker with no crossover as my project. I'm hoping the purity of signal reaching the driver will be special and that the resultant sound will be great for near-field listening. The remaining issue was which driver to select and finding a flat-pack cabinet to suit.
I've gone for the well regarded Fostex FF125K 5" full-range driver from Wilmslow Audio for ported operation (an advantage for a small speaker, I think):
http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/ekmps/shops/wilmslow/images/fostex-ff125wk-917-p.jpg
Wilmslow sell a flat-pack cabinet, but in my searching I found a guy in Moldova who makes these ready-made ones, which look nice:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/speaker-box-for-Fostex-FF-125-K-pair-/00/s/NjA4WDkxMg==/$T2eC16FHJI!E9qSO8Hl+BQ2t)BUH1!~~60_57.JPG
I'll be taking photos of the 'project' (such as it is) and will review the resulting speakers once built.
That looks great Martin, I'm in the same boat or due to be as I am hoping to return to the Caymans for a few years and need a small speaker to take with me, together with my Mini-T and HRT DAC, everything else will go into storage. My entire music library will fit on a 2TB drive :)
I look forward to the progress reports.
I really ought to have a go at summat like this for myself - lazy git I am....... The LS5/9's are very "organic and smoothly coloured," but a desktop really needs something a bit more "direct" sounding I think. If the port makes the sound too "porty" thus mounted, rather than on stands, I'd probably suggest a Wilko bath sponge cut in two on standby :lol:
Good luck and hope the sound suits - should I reckon...
everything else will go into storage
Very low rates at my storage facility in Suffolk - I'll even turn everything on from time to time and play music through it to make sure nothing has seized up! :lol:
Those speaker cabs do look good Martin - will be watching this one with interest, nice one. :thumbsup:
I've just received the cabinets from Moldova and they were well packed and look gorgeous, with an excellent finish to the veneer. The Fostex drivers are due in at the end of the week so more later.
Fostex drivers have arrived. Assembling...
Photos later.
Looking forward to seeing those Martin ;)
Canetoad
26-02-2013, 16:57
:popcorn:
Haselsh1
26-02-2013, 18:06
Can't wait to see the photo's. I've wanted to do this very project for years.
Let's call it final assembly, shall we? If I refer to this as a project you might think that some work was involved, instead of simple soldering and screwing. After seeing what some DIYers elsewhere on this forum can achieve, I'd have to hide!
Parts
2 x ready-made custom ported cabinets (eBay seller from Moldova)
2 x Fostex FF125WK drivers (Wilmslow Audio)
Length of Black Rhodium Twist speaker cable
4mm plugs
Some thick loft insulation
Silver solder
Stick-on feet
Assembly
Umm... put it all together.
Photos
Parts laid out. The reflex cabinets arrived finished and polished. Even the rear terminal panel was pre-fitted! The drivers came with a sealing gasket and self-tapping screws and washers.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8243/8511067118_13c8de9682_b.jpg
Bang - done! I will eventually replace the self-tapping screws with T-Nuts and hex bolts so that I can experiment more easily. Loft insulation was inserted through the driver hole before assembly.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8249/8509958903_e19cdb5c86_b.jpg
When I said near-field I meant it! This configuration, using a corner desk, is perfect as nearfield speakers sound better when they're not pointing directly at you. Driving them is my Windows 8 desktop PC via S/PDIF optical to a Caiman DAC and then a Mini-T amp.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8247/8509958535_fb36500f9b_b.jpg
Sound
They're on continuous soak test to loosen them up a little. I shall leave them running all day tomorrow. Listening notes after they've settled down!
I'm also going to experiment with varying levels of damping, different damping materials and perhaps a brace from the back of the cabinet to the driver magnet.
walpurgis
26-02-2013, 22:51
Those look very good.
Do yourself a favour though, remove the loft insulation ASAP and vacuum the cabinets out, as this stuff sheds bits of fibre that will go through the rear cone suspension spider and contaminate the voicecoil gap!
Instead, try some of this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300715136687?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
And use 1" thick polyeurothane foam sheet on the back panel (experiment then glue on if happy).
Leave an area around the back of the reflex ports clear of wadding by a couple of inches or so.
Ali Tait
26-02-2013, 23:09
Not to mention the fibres will chuff out of the port and you will breathe them in, and you don't wanna do that!
They look really good. I'm interested to hear what you think of them as I need a small set of speakers for my PC based system.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
southall-1998
26-02-2013, 23:41
I still must try some Sterling LS3/5a V2s!
Good advice, chaps. I'll remove the loft insulation pronto!
They look fabulous Martin :cool:
MikeMusic
27-02-2013, 08:59
Just needs a 2nd screen and an IBM keyboard and perfect
:)
LOL, I am thinking of upgrading my 22" to a 24" Samsung, the same as at work. I prefer not to have two screens.
That Microsoft keyboard is a good looker and the wireless works perfectly, but it encourages more typos than an old fashioned Cherry type keyboard. The key shapes and short throw seem to be the culprits, as well as lack of positional accuracy on my part.
MikeMusic
27-02-2013, 09:32
LOL, I am thinking of upgrading my 22" to a 24" Samsung, the same as at work. I prefer not to have two screens.
That Microsoft keyboard is a good looker and the wireless works perfectly, but it encourages more typos than an old fashioned Cherry type keyboard. The key shapes and short throw seem to be the culprits, as well as lack of positional accuracy on my part.
I like Viewsonics. Have a 28 and 22"
Check the resolution is 1080 or more when buying as my 28 only does 1920x1200. Can be some daft prices on Ebay
I love having 2 screens
My Logitech wireless is very nice too
hoopsontoast
27-02-2013, 09:44
Nice, those cabinets look great for the money!
I put 24 hours of continuous music through the Fostex speakers in order to loosen them up, and after sounding a little flat and constrained initially they have opened up very well.
They have a remarkably open and coherent sound, neutral in tone and with reasonable bass extension (the 5" driver does well but they won't give LS3/5as a hard time in this respect), reasonable dynamics but very well resolved microdynamics, very good transparency when used in near-field conditions, and lovely effortless midrange. There is a very slight nasality, just detectable with some music, that I suspect is down to the not yet optimised damping. They are not at all harsh or hard edged as some members or the response graphs suggest.
Listening to different styles of music, their performance with big choral music (Vivaldi's Gloria) is very vivid, creating a wonderful small but continuous soundstage in my study. In fact, they image very well indeed. Trying out their bass extension, Massive Attack's Mezzanine sounded robust with some quite impressive hard struck bass drum. Playing Jewel's Spirit reproduced her lovely breathy voice nicely with a fair amount of insight.
They will certainly take some power and mercilessly reveal the Mini-T's power limitations when it starts to clip (I am constantly amazed that anyone can run a Mini-T as a main amplifier in a hi-fi system, the power envelope is just too limited).
I have some proper lambswool damping on order, as well as Tee Nuts and hex bolts to make the job of modifications easier. Will report on how the sound changes with damping once I've done it.
They are lovely looking cabs Martin, congratulations on a job well done. Are they performing the way you expected them to?
Actually yes, Dave. I have to bear in mind the total outlay of about £88 for the speaker cabinets and £120 for the drivers all-in, so hardly beer money but a tiny fraction of the cost of my big Ushers, and quite a lot less than the LS3/5a kits. In this latter context, they don't try to do what they can't do (i.e. deep bass) but they do not disgrace themselves at all in midrange transparency that is so important to me.
I don't think I could have done better for the cost.
Mission accomplished then, and they do look rather classy ;)
I have now removed the loft insulation and repacked the speakers with Monacor MDM-3 High End Speaker Dampening Pads (http://www.monacor.de/en/products/speaker-technology/product-listing/product-detail-page/?artikelid=2499), a bit of a misnomer really as it's more wadding than pads. They are made from sheep's wool and polyester. I used a pack in each speaker, folding the dual layers in three and cutting a slot to allow the internal cable through.
I also took the chance to drill out the holes and insert M4 Tee-Nuts, bolting up the drivers nice and tight with M4 domed hex bolts and washers.
Well, what a difference good damping material makes. Of course, there are more hours on the speakers now and things overall have improved noticeably. That slight nasality has gone and the sound is even more wide open, clear and easy with the detail. Bass is a little more up front (although they are no bass monsters) and the sound is very coherent top to bottom.
I am very impressed with the Fostex drivers. They're not cheap but they show real pedigree, performing way better than any small full-range driver I've heard. No wonder they're popular in horn loaded designs.
So, job done and I have an 'emergency' set of small speakers that will always get me out of trouble. Just for fun, I'm going to run them on the 'big rig' to hear what they can really do - just as soon as I can find a pair of stands to put them on. Talk about tiny and huge next to the Ushers!
Talk about tiny and huge next to the Ushers!
:worthless:
The Grand Wazoo
12-07-2013, 21:08
I'd be interested in how these speakers are proving now you've been living with them for a while, Martin - any thoughts?
Hi Chris - the best thing I can say about them is that I don't think about them any more. That's praise indeed as I simply put on music (mostly Spotify at high bitrate) while I'm working at the PC and I get lost in the music and my work.
They are a great match for the souped-up Mini-T and Caiman, the whole definitely sounding like a good quality near-field hi-fi system. I think the quality of the full-range Fostex driver carries them, with their highly detailed and natural midrange, and the cabinets are nice looking, well made and great value for money. I should add that Black Rhodium Twist makes a fine external and internal wiring cable, in fact I'm using more of it for the Gale refurb project.
Are they better than an equivalent ready-made speaker? I think so but of course I haven't heard them all. For their cost and that of the Mini-T, they are excellent. Of course, the Paul Hynes PSU distorts the overall cost but that was a little treat for myself. There's always the satisfaction of having put them together, too.
Love the Avatar, Dave. I wonder how many will get the reference? I'll see if I can take a photo of 'Little and Large' sometime.
The Grand Wazoo
13-07-2013, 10:12
That's great Martin, thanks for that - always useful to know how things pan out in the long term after the honeymoon period is over. That first bloom of love for the product is always greater when it's something you've had a hand in building too, I'd think!
I remember when I built my first amp - the Linsley-Hood 75. I was well proud of that and it sounded bloody good, too.
Martin
These look terrific!
You are on to something. I saw a video on youtube of a similar speaker build and they sounded surprisingly good :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq-H_lGnRtQ
Could I ask for the link to were you purchased the speaker cabinates? I tried to find them on ebay but seemed to have missed.
Thanks!
The Grand Wazoo
13-07-2013, 13:44
Stuart,
The guy trades on Ebay as Audioproduct - I know of him because he does plinths for Lencos & things and a friend was thinking of getting one.
Here's his Ebay shop (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/audioproduct/m.html?item=160922266622&pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item2577b6ebfe&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562)
Chris has it, Stuart. Don't be put off by his Moldova address, everything arrived as promised and was very well packed. The cabinets are great value for the money; in fact Wilmslow sell a kit cabinet for the Fostex driver that is more expensive than his ready-made ones.
These are the cabs: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/speaker-box-for-Fostex-FF-125-K-pair-/150970167612?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item232685f13c
Thanks guys - will take a look :)))
LOL, I am thinking of upgrading my 22" to a 24" Samsung, the same as at work. I prefer not to have two screens.
That Microsoft keyboard is a good looker and the wireless works perfectly, but it encourages more typos than an old fashioned Cherry type keyboard. The key shapes and short throw seem to be the culprits, as well as lack of positional accuracy on my part.
I just bought a Samsung S24B350 - and i can say it is great! very happy with it :)
Dave
Is there any reason you avoided the larger enclosure for the Fostek 206s?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/speaker-box-for-Fostex-FE206E-pair-Bass-Reflex-Type-Enclosure/151011949057?_trksid=p2045573.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111000%26algo%3DREC.CURRENT%26ao%3 D1%26asc%3D16547%26meid%3D227044744069288072%26pid %3D100033%26prg%3D7839%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D1 50970167612%26
Im still considering what secondary speakers to get - though i do see a nice set of Ushers on ebay at the mo - probably hard to beat... have you heard these? Im looking for something with 'low listening fatique' risk ... "
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MATCHED-PAIR-USHER-COMPASS-X-708-STANDMOUNT-OR-BOOKSHELF-SPEAKERS-EXCELLENT-/200946446467?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item2ec9577083
Chris has it, Stuart. Don't be put off by his Moldova address, everything arrived as promised and was very well packed. The cabinets are great value for the money; in fact Wilmslow sell a kit cabinet for the Fostex driver that is more expensive than his ready-made ones.
These are the cabs: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/speaker-box-for-Fostex-FF-125-K-pair-/150970167612?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item232685f13c
Martyn Miles
31-01-2014, 07:55
Well, I have never been so insulted in all my life, spitchy mission speakers indeed. (Don't know what it is but it doesn't sound nice) LOADS of people on here like them.
I am flouncing out of here :argument:
Just because ' LOADS of people like them ' doesn't mean anything.
LOADS of people read the Sun newspaper.
Loads of people wouldn't have it in their house...
LOADS of people read the Sun newspaper.
I say the same thing whenever I'm told that LOADS of people do something ;)
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