Full Range Speakers!

[walpurgis]

Full range speakers.

By this I mean single transducer drive units that cover the whole audio band, nothing with a separate tweeter (or sub for that matter).

I have owned and used full range drive units from Jordan, Elac, Coral, Goodmans, Jordan Watts, Coral, Eagle, Lowther, Fane and many others. Currently I have (as some of you may have seen) just aquired a pair of Chinese 'Aucharm' 6 1/2" single cone, full range Diatone copies.

My experiences with the various mentioned drivers varied a lot.

The Jordan Watt modules had great potential, but driver design drawbacks prevented them from achieving what they might have done. The chassis enclosed the cones too much, causing colourations.

I did not get on with the Lowthers (two pairs of Acoustas with square frame PM6 units in), they may have been spectacular, but they were horribly coloured.

The best were the Coral Beta 10 units, which were truly fabulous, followed surprisingly maybe, by the little Eagle FR65, a very nice quality twin cone 6 1/2" driver, rumoured to also come from the Coral factory in Japan. I tried the larger 8" Eagle FR8, but it did not sound as good.

I've used reflex and horn enclosures with full range units, but don't have a preference, rather, going with what seems to suit each driver at the time.

Has anybody got any experience of these types of drive units and if so what did you use and how?

[Ali Tait]

I use Visaton B200's in my OB's, though only from 200Hz up. From there down is handled by a pair of Eminence Alpha 15" per channel. Sound very good to me. Recently won a pair of DX3 Lowthers, which I may try in place of the B200's.

[Westyman]

I have a pair of Jordan-Watts Junos sitting downstairs as I type this. They were from my Mother's house as we cleared it post-mortem. Cant quite decide what to do with them, as I seem to remember quite liking their sound and I have an unused Nytech amp up in its box in the loft.....

Didn't there used to be a Tannoy single drive unit or was that more of a co-axial unit?

My Dad also had a Hartley-Turner full range that I recall had an electromagnet rather than a permanent magnet. But then he did add a Kelly Ribbon tweeter later.

[walpurgis]

The Visatons have a good reputation, but I've not heard any.

There are some interesting drive units about these days. Fostex have had some good stuff for donkey's years. Feastrix are making a big impression (at a price). At more modest cost, Tang Band have some very nice looking units. Not well known, but looking very good are the L Cao 'Diatone' derived units (see eBay), which look beautifully made. Also on eBay are some dinky 4" full range units from Aucharm, which look very cute and well made, a bit like mini Lowthers.

[walpurgis]

I have a pair of Jordan-Watts Junos sitting downstairs as I type this. They were from my Mother's house as we cleared it post-mortem. Cant quite decide what to do with them, as I seem to remember quite liking their sound and I have an unused Nytech amp up in its box in the loft.....

Didn't there used to be a Tannoy single drive unit or was that more of a co-axial unit?

My Dad also had a Hartley-Turner full range that I recall had an electromagnet rather than a permanent magnet. But then he did add a Kelly Ribbon tweeter later.

Tannoy and Goodmans (Imagio) have marketed ICT full range drive units which I suppose could be argued as being virtually single transducer units, as they have only one voice coil, the tweeter being driven by inductance from the bass coil field.

Tannoy also made a 12" driver for their Audiometric system in the sixties, but that was a bass unit to all intents and purposes.

[Ali Tait]

I've heard a few designs using Mark Audio drivers, these are very good IMHO. I have a pair of DMarKens using Alpair 6 that Colin built for me. They travel about with me as I work away from home.

[hoopsontoast]

I have used the following:

Fostex FF225K- Huge dynamics and very very smooth up to 8kHz, needed a supertweeter and a bit coloured (Jericho Horns) but probably would sound great in OB.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7006/6514893911_35e82accd7_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6514893911/)
image0045u (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6514893911/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

Veravox 5s - Unobtainable now, pity at they are brilliant, not too harsh, quite smooth and nice and dynamic for a 5". Used in a BiB, Ported and OB.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3618/3667098657_6ae824528a_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/3667098657/)
Hoops Audio speakers (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/3667098657/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3109/3309367302_49ce0ce92a_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/3309367302/)
Veravox's (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/3309367302/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

Veravox 3/Omnes Audio BB3.AL - Great little 3" driver, similar presentation to the 5S but without the dynamics, limited SPL.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6059/5901853764_fb7623527f_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/5901853764/)
BB3.AL (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/5901853764/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

Bandor 50mm - much similar to the Veravox 3, bit more bass.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3088/2292695190_09a5d52fbc_z.jpg?zz=1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/2292695190/)
Bandor Spheres - Up close (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/2292695190/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

CSS FR125S - Nice, works well in sealed and ported boxes, decent bass but limited SPL.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7015/6514893647_8db4f1056a_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6514893647/)
pict0734zm1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6514893647/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

[walpurgis]

Interesting selection. Are those all your own Rob, or are they stock photos?

Amazing how much the Fostex FF225K resembles the vintage JBL LE8 T (another lovely unit).

I've not tried any of the drivers shown except for the tiny Bandor unit, which is nicely made and pretty, but hopeless as a full range speaker really. It just can't generate enough output, not even in a horn. I found it to bottom out on its suspension before any useful levels were reached regardless of what type of enclosure was tried.

Am I correct in thinking the Hoops Audio speakers are in vertical exit 1/4 wave horns cabinets? It certainly looks like it, I was toying with the idea of something along those lines for the Aucharm Diatones.

[hoopsontoast]

Interesting selection. Are those all your own Rob, or are they stock photos?

Amazing how much the Fostex FF225K resembles the vintage JBL LE8 T (another lovely unit).

I've not tried any of the drivers shown except for the tiny Bandor unit, which is nicely made and pretty, but hopeless as a full range speaker really. It just can't generate enough output, not even in a horn. I found it to bottom out on its suspension before any useful levels were reached regardless of what type of enclosure was tried.

Am I correct in thinking the Hoops Audio speakers are in vertical exit 1/4 wave horns cabinets? It certainly looks like it, I was toying with the idea of something along those lines for the Aucharm Diatones.

Yes, they are/were all my own speakers.

Yeah the Bandor drivers were perfect for near-field listening.

The Hoops Audio ones are just a simple ported bipole (two drivers, one forward and one back). The ones below are the 1/4 wave / horn hybrid as per the BiB (Bigger is Better) designs over on diyaudio.

[walpurgis]

Looks like you're as bad as I used to be. I always had a speaker project on the go. Can't get away with it so much these days, as I'm short of room to keep them and to work on them. Due for another go though, for the new units. This picture is what I had in mind:

http://i49.tinypic.com/33krp1f.jpg

[hoopsontoast]

Yup that looks like a BiB, unfortunatley I dont think the worksheet is available now, to design the enclosure.

No real speaker projects on the go now, getting the 104/2's up and running properly is as much as I get these days. They are about as opposite of full-range speakers as you can get!

[Stresss42]

Hi all, anyone seen these ....Visaton Fontana speakers. ( Omnidirectional ) ?

http://www.visaton.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_75&product_id=227

Anyone heard anything like these...can't find any reviews. All the very best, Steve.

[hoopsontoast]

They are not full-range drivers in those Visaton speakers IIRC.

It would be easy to make your own design though, get some sort of cone to act as the director and mount a full range facing upwards and away you go! :D

To add to that list, I have had a few more full-range driver based speakers.....

My current Goodmans Axiom 201s:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3807/12026877805_ae19ab7519_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/12026877805/)
Speakers (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/12026877805/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

Also current, but spare, another pair of Veravox 5S drivers, in a aperiodic enclosure:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2869/10377500894_8e5077320a_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/10377500894/)
Veravox / Fountek (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/10377500894/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

Another pair of Fostex FF225K drivers in OB:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7420/9597033555_75da90e337_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/9597033555/)
Test Baffle #1 Fostex FF225K (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/9597033555/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

Eclipse TD-508 Mk1:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8093/8549644324_72f2dc0701_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/8549644324/)
Eclipse TD-508 Mk1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/8549644324/) by RSdesignUK (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

[chelsea]

Look forward to hearing the goodmans at scalford.
Would love to hear those coral betas one day.Seem pretty rare though.

[John]

Hoping to hear some of these when I come back from Cebu
http://madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-fullrange/markaudio-alpair-12p-8-paper-cone-full-range/

[Stresss42]

Very - very interested in this...been thinking about building my own speakers for some time. Including ideas on enclosure design.

( for example 18mm cement particle board for the enclosure instead of mdf / ply etc ).... I like the simplicity of a full range driver - and the lack of a complicated crossover.

How does the treble sound without a dedicated tweeter ? Any one have some designs for some floorstanders / enclosure capacity etc using a very high quality single driver ?

Thanks very much to all, will be watching this one closely ! Steve.

[hoopsontoast]

Re needing a tweeter, it really depends on the driver.
Some I have had like the Veravox, CSS, Bandor etc dont need one I feel. The larger ones like the 8" Omnes Audio, Fostex and current Goodmans certainly do.
Most if not all full-range drivers wont have the best off axis performance anyway, and will be quite directional.

[John]

I heard the frugel 3 loudspeakers and was pretty surprised how good the treble was
http://hifipig.com/electricbeach-frugel3-loudspeaker/

[hoopsontoast]

Yeah the smaller metal cone drivers seem to do better in this regard, the Jordan JX92S I have heard sounded fine without a tweeter, and of course the 2" Bandor unit is basically a large tweeter.

[walpurgis]

As some of you will know, I ended up buying the 8" alnico magnet L Cao units:

http://i43.tinypic.com/16m845y.jpg

I'm still buying a few bits and pieces I'll need before I start building cabinets.


Up for grabs, a spare pair of very nice Sixties/early Seventies, 8" Eagle full range 8 ohm twin cone drivers:

http://i41.tinypic.com/9zn9dt.jpg

These sound very nice and are efficient too. They have alnico magnets and are I believe a rebadged Coral product. Most Eagle speakers came from either Coral or Foster back then. A cheap way of getting into decent sounding full range speakers. Anybody interested in making any offer please PM me.

[Welder]

Full range, hmm, I don't think so. :scratch:

To the best of my knowledge there isn’t a full range driver in production and never has been. I do not know of a single drive unit capable of giving a flat response, give or take 5db from 20Hz to 20Hz let alone redbook standard or the possible frequency range of some of the best vinyl with suitable electronics.

[jostber]

The Stein Music Master Class speakers use a special kind of full range drivers:

http://translate.google.no/translate?hl=no&sl=es&tl=en&prev=_dd&u=http://www.hifilive.es/2012/01/21/stein-music-master-class-sp-1-1-2/

[Welder]

There is of course a 'full range' unit from Volt. :D
It doesn’t quite cover the full audio range, but looking at some of the so called full range drivers mentioned above you may at least get to hear most of the music with one of these; :eyebrows: bass roll off isn’t that drastic until around 60Hz.

http://www.voltloudspeakers.co.uk/About_Us/about_us.html



Apart from being a well made, it will handle plenty of Watts and do bass in something rather less than a half height wardrobe. :eek:

If I was trying to achieve the currently impossible (single drive unit full audio range speaker) this unit would be very high on my list.

[Ali Tait]

Hoping to hear some of these when I come back from Cebu
http://madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-fullrange/markaudio-alpair-12p-8-paper-cone-full-range/
Nice drivers, I have a pair to try in my OB's.

[hoopsontoast]

There is of course a 'full range' unit from Volt. :D
It doesn’t quite cover the full audio range, but looking at some of the so called full range drivers mentioned above you may at least get to hear most of the music with one of these; :eyebrows: bass roll off isn’t that drastic until around 60Hz.

http://www.voltloudspeakers.co.uk/About_Us/about_us.html



Apart from being a well made, it will handle plenty of Watts and do bass in something rather less than a half height wardrobe. :eek:

If I was trying to achieve the currently impossible (single drive unit full audio range speaker) this unit would be very high on my list.

:scratch:Are you on about the FR220.1 which is a coaxial driver with crossover and separate tweeter?

[Welder]

:scratch:Are you on about the FR220.1 which is a coaxial driver with crossover and separate tweeter?

No.
The unit I would be interested in is PsCX8/151

[hoopsontoast]

No.
The unit I would be interested in is PsCX8/151

But again, that's a coaxial unit with built in crossover and tweeter.....

I am not sure that anyone actually peruses your demand for:


I do not know of a single drive unit capable of giving a flat response, give or take 5db from 20Hz to 20Hz let alone redbook standard or the possible frequency range of some of the best vinyl with suitable electronics.

There is more to speaker performance than having a flat on-axis frequency response..... IME anyway.

[Welder]

I did write full range in inverted comma’s. ;)

The OP asked for a single transducer that covered the entire audio band. Lets take that to be roughly 14Hz (still audible) to 22KHz (not audible to me but a decent set of young ears may hear this). There were then a whole load of posts suggesting “full range” speakers, many of which are far from full range. I just wanted to point out that there is no such beast……:)


Absolutely agree, there is more than flat response over the audible frequency range, but it’s not a bad starting point. Personally I’m rather fond of hearing bass frequencies at a comparable SPL to the midrange or higher frequencies, others it seems, don’t find dramatic roll off from say 150Hz at all disturbing.


Given there is no such driver I’ve joined in with the rest and made a recommendation of a unit that I would consider if I was building “a not quite full range but hear most of the frequencies without spending loads of money to hear a lot less”. ;)

[Ali Tait]

S'why I like the wideband driver with bass helper approach - Visaton B200 from 200hz up, Eminence 15 inchers from 200hz down. Works well IMHO.

[Beobloke]

Full range, hmm, I don't think so. :scratch:

To the best of my knowledge there isn’t a full range driver in production and never has been. I do not know of a single drive unit capable of giving a flat response, give or take 5db from 20Hz to 20Hz let alone redbook standard or the possible frequency range of some of the best vinyl with suitable electronics.

What about the Goodmans Imagio ICT driver, as mentioned on Page 1?

One voice coil and no crossover componentry means it's not any kind of multi-unit driver. It's a 6.5" unit so does the bass end nicely and it's flat to 20kHz at 30 degrees off axis up the top.

The Imagio speakers have some unique strengths and can sound superb. When i worked at Goodmans, I saw copies of documentation that was looking at how to develop the design further but the move away from hi-fi speakers and then Goodmans' eventual close in 2005 put pay to this, sadly.

[John]

Nice drivers, I have a pair to try in my OB's.
If I like them and they are good as my friend says I might do the same

[John]

I use duel concentric and start to apply augmented bass much like Ali at 56hz

[Ali Tait]

The A12P is very good John, heard them a couple of times at Owston.

[John]

I have to wait till March till I can have a listen

[Ali Tait]

Worth the wait John.

[Stresss42]

I heard the frugel 3 loudspeakers and was pretty surprised how good the treble was
http://hifipig.com/electricbeach-frugel3-loudspeaker/

Thanks very much for the link John, now looking at the Mark Audio CHR-70 OR Alpair-10A http://www.markaudio.com/
Also : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nee_InC_ubo

Planning a build - towers with the CHR-70 / OR Alpair 10A drivers. Mark audio also allow download of complete box dims / cu capacity etc. Thanks again John.

[John]

I just heard the A12P with the Gooldwoods 18 really liled what this combo did and driver not fully bedded in so more to come

[John]

Thanks very much for the link John, now looking at the Mark Audio CHR-70 OR Alpair-10A http://www.markaudio.com/
Also : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nee_InC_ubo

Planning a build - towers with the CHR-70 / OR Alpair 10A drivers. Mark audio also allow download of complete box dims / cu capacity etc. Thanks again John.
The Alpair are really nice really good full range drivers and with the right cabinet should sound pretty good

[Ali Tait]

The paper cones are generally said to be better than the metal cones.

[John]

the paper cones are lovely but the drivers I heard only had 400 hours on them and they need double that to fully be at their best according to reports

[Ali Tait]

Yes, I had mine at work for a couple of weeks, I'd leave them on overnight to get some hours on them.

[Stresss42]

Really excited about the build - can't wait to start.

Trying to find some 18mm Baltic Ply now. None at wickes. Damn.

Also - how to achieve a near piano black gloss finish over finely sanded ply. Gonna be tough.

[John]

Please do a build thread once you start Steve always love seeing how these things develop

[hoopsontoast]

Sounds like a fun project! :)

[Stresss42]

Will do John 100%. Will have to email admin / moderator I can't start a new thread being a junior member !! ???

Anyway I'll have to put up some pictures of the ply cabinets when made - may have to wait a while longer untill I can afford the Mark Audio Alpair 7 drivers.
( New house is killing me ). :brickwall: Thanks again for the link John - the Alpairs seem to be absolutely perfect. Highest regards to all. Steve.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Will have to email admin / moderator I can't start a new thread being a junior member !! ???

Are you sure about that? Have you tried Steve?

[John]

Steve you can start a new thread without any issues the Alpairs are really good but give them time to burn in before judging

[Stresss42]

Are you sure about that? Have you tried Steve?

Hi there just messaged you...bet it's easy isn't it and I just embarrassed myself !!!! :doh:

[John]

Yes click Post New Thread top left in the area you wish to put it in

[walpurgis]

Really excited about the build - can't wait to start.

Trying to find some 18mm Baltic Ply now. None at wickes. Damn.

Also - how to achieve a near piano black gloss finish over finely sanded ply. Gonna be tough.

To achieve a good even finish the surface has to be sealed before applying any kind of top coat. There are various types of primers, but I like using a couple of coats of wood hardener first as it penetrates wood or MDF surfaces well, it makes it impermeable and toughens it, this reduces the amount of primer required, if you fine sand it you can even apply the top finish direct, as the surface is now very stable. I've done it this way in the past many times.

By the way, my own full range speaker project is likely to kick off this week or next. I'm just finalising the cabinet design (in my head and on paper), so I can calculate material requirements and purchase the same. Not decided on cabinet finish yet. I usually veneer, but may go for an enamelled finish for a change. My project will also be featured in a new thread.

Good luck with yours Steve.

If you want any pointers, just ask me. I'm reasonably good at this sort of thing, it'll be something like the fifty third pair of speakers I've built.

[Stresss42]

Hi Geoff thanks for the info. Do you use mdf or plywood ? You found ply / mdf to be better to work with? ( wont go into the acoustic qualities...can of worms )...would ply become brittle with wood hardener ?
53 pairs of speakers ? Were your most successful and best sounding builds full range drivers ? When I decided to do a build I went slightly crazy looking at different cross-over options I gotta be honest.

Cheers Geoff. Steve.

[Stresss42]

Mark Audio Alpair 7 Generation 3 - Ordered. !!

http://www.rumoh.eu/en/mark-audio/3868-mark-audio-alpair-7-gen3-grey.html