View Full Version : How wide is your 1210's soundstage?
Wakefield Turntables
19-01-2013, 11:09
I've often heard that one of the main complaints with the 1210 is the width of its soundstage. Well, why? What limits the 1210s soundstage? My soundstage fills the entire width of my room, but with some recordings it's quite narrow. I've always presumed that's just how the record was mastered. Any comments on the subject would be most welcome and any ideas on improving soundstage width would be greatly accepted. :cool:
What limits the 1210s soundstage?
The width of the soundstage is also determined by the rest of the set. particular the preamplifier is responsible for that.
RobbieGong
19-01-2013, 11:28
Hi Andrew, I dont know the tecnicalities around what may or not give a wide soundstage or why the Techies may have a narrow one compared to other decks, if thats the case. I find the soundstage with my Techie good for the size of my listening room (13.5ft x 11ft). My speakers also image well so when so that gives me a sense of 'soundstage' if that makes sense.
I would say what we call soundstaging is 90% the loudspeakers and room and the other 10% the arm and cartridge. I can't see how the motor unit in isolation can affect soundstaging. All it has to do is spin the record at the right speed with the mimumum of vibration and noise.
Wakefield Turntables
19-01-2013, 11:51
The width of the soundstage is also determined by the rest of the set. particular the preamplifier is responsible for that.
Johan, can you elaborate how the pre amp impacts on the soundstage?
I must admit to not being the brightest in the class ;)
Hi Andrew, I dont know the tecnicalities around what may or not give a wide soundstage or why the Techies may have a narrow one compared to other decks, if thats the case. I find the soundstage with my Techie good for the size of my listening room (13.5ft x 11ft). My speakers also image well so when so that gives me a sense of 'soundstage' if that makes sense.
Wow! You have a similar size room to mine and to some extent your findings mirror my own. Don't get me wrong I have no issues with my soundstage as I mentioned it fills the width of the room, sometimes, wider still. But it's just I have issues with trying to understand which components of the deck influence the soundstage? I think that comment is too easily used and assumptions that it's the deck changing the soundstage rather than components are too easily made, where's the evidence for a start??
I would say what we call soundstaging is 90% the loudspeakers and room and the other 10% the arm and cartridge. I can't see how the motor unit in isolation can affect soundstaging. All it has to do is spin the record at the right speed with the mimumum of vibration and noise.
Hmmmm good points. I too think its more the speakers and room interaction rather than the physical aspects of the deck. Additionally cart and tonearm will have soon input but is the input influence the soundstage :scratch:
. Additionally cart and tonearm will have soon input but is the input influence the soundstage :scratch:
If the recording has soundstage information on it then the better the arm/cart combo the more of that recorded detail it will retrieve and consequently be reproduced by the rest of the system downstream and translate into a 'soundstage effect' in the room. Just thinking aloud but seems logical to me.
Difficult to explain in english for me. :(
The better the pre-amplifier has been built up, the better the entire display. Also the soundstage.
Compare a budget preamp with a high end preamp for example. And you know what I mean.:)
Wakefield Turntables
19-01-2013, 12:19
Difficult to explain in english for me. :(
The better the pre-amplifier has been built up, the better the entire display. Also the soundstage.
Compare a budget preamp with a high end preamp for example. And you know what I mean.:)
That's a very good explanation. I have a matched preamp with matched active speakers so, theoretically, they should be the best for each other. My preamp costs roughly 6500€ so it's should throw out a decent soundstage :D
I have a matched preamp with matched active speakers .........
Yes. The match and synergy of the equipment is very important. 1 +1 = 3 in this way.
You can be very expensive components throw together, but if the match is not there........... draws on nothing.
chris@panteg
19-01-2013, 12:41
Yes but why does a TT like the Michell Gyrodec throw out such wide stage , regardless of any fancy pre ?
Yes but why does a TT like the Michell Gyrodec throw out such wide stage , regardless of any fancy pre ?
Yes of course. I mean only that the rest of the set also plays a major role. and not only to fix the turntable......... But ....... Rule No 1: Everything starts at the source.......... In this case, the record player. But this is not all decisive.
Frankyc2003
19-01-2013, 13:51
There is a lot to 'Soudstage'. It is a very interesting audio concept.
I read recently that it is in fact a total illusion of the mind. A kind of short cut your brain takes to make things sound 'in a room'. It is not measurable, like any other audio concepts that you can test, visualize and measure.:scratch:
From the old 1980's filters making your recording sound like they were made in a cathedral, to the small amount of euphony that valves will introduce in your system, there is many ways of creating a 'wide' soundstage.
As far as I understand it, from the pre amp point of view, phase accuracy is essential. Any lag or delay on one channel will ruin the illusion.
For example a Single Ended Triode amplifier will offer a wider soundstage than a push pull because of its high signal accuracy. At least that's how I understand it...:mental:
Depth, height, width can all be felt and experienced.
Then as said earlier there is solidity. You want your imaging to be rock solid...
In my experience, height is the most difficult to achieve.
The techie is great at depth I think. Its width of imaging ranges from good to Great, but will never be amazing...
BUt that doesn't matter too much to me...
:ner:
The techie is great at depth I think. Its width of imaging ranges from good to Great, but will never be amazing...
What would the limiting factor be?
I always thought it was more to do with the record/cd rather than anything else.
Yes it is, but some T/Ts defo do soundstaging (width and depth) better than others.
With the Techy, my feeling is that the limiting factor there is the plinth (especially the rubber part) - or more accurately, the relationship between the plinth and the motor unit, in terms of how effectively vibration created by the latter is dealt with by the former, and therefore what the stylus 'sees' in that respect, and reproduces accordingly along with music, subsequently robbing recordings of certain inherent sonic properties.
If someone could build me a plinth made from a 'sandwich effect' of a solid-wood inner section (perhaps ebony), surrounded by slate, which I could just drop the top plate of my Techy into, I'm almost certain that this would be the ultimate in isolation, and would address the slight issue the Techy has in terms of soundstaging (and absolute filigree detailing at high-frequencies).
Marco.
Frankyc2003
19-01-2013, 23:06
I conccur with Marco. I believe that if you could isolate the tonearm mounting from the main body of the techie, you would get a wider soundstage. The down fall of the deck is that mix between rubber, hard black under chassis and solid metal.
On the other hand you could argue that the sub-chassis is very well thought out and that if the motor is introducing vibration and affecting the sound the best method would be to sink that vibration, so what material is best for that? I'm not really convinced that there is a problem here to be solved.
I totally agree, Francois.
On the other hand you could argue that the sub-chassis is very well thought out and that if the motor is introducing vibration and affecting the sound the best method would be to sink that vibration, so what material is best for that?
Well, I'm a great believer in eliminating problems at source, rather than applying a 'bandage' afterwards, in an attempt to deal with said problem, which is why I think that what Francois and I are suggesting would be fundamentally more effective! :)
Marco.
I totally agree, Francois.
Well, I'm a great believer in eliminating problems at source, rather than applying a 'bandage' afterwards, in an attempt to deal with said problem,
Marco.
I agree.
Just out of interest and bearing in mid Chris's post earlier, would the general consensus be that quality belt drives like the Sondek, Gyrodeck etc do the 'soudstage' thing a little better than DD or idler drive?
In my experience, yes - and they generally sound a little more detailed, too.
What most belt-drives lack in comparison, and which is HUGELY important to me, is the way that D/Ds and idlers 'propel' the music along, rhythmically, with tremendous vigour, especially in the lower frequencies, creating an addictive 'fun factor' with any music that's remotely beat-driven, consequently making our elastic-band friends, in that respect, sound somewhat anodyne and lacking in joie de vivre. :exactly:
Marco.
chris@panteg
19-01-2013, 23:51
The plinth feels very solid and extremely well damped , its tempting to think it's overdamped ? Robbing the music of a little ambience , however the Notts decks are very high mass , highly damped turntables that produce a pretty wide and spacious soundstage , do they not ?
I think just enjoy the SL1200 for what it is and stop looking to solve problems that don't really exist ?
In my experience, yes - and they generally sound a little more detailed, too.
What most belt-drives lack in comparison, and which is HUGELY important to me, is the way that D/Ds and idlers 'propel' the music along, rhythmically, with tremendous vigour, especially in the lower frequencies, creating an addictive 'fun factor' with any music that's remotely beat-driven, consequently making our elastic-band friends, in that respect, sound somewhat anodyne and lacking in joie de vivre. :exactly:
Marco.
That is pretty much my thoughts too. Althought I would not say lacking joie de vivre - because they just dont! They are great to listen to - But I would say they are lacking the confidence of the DD/idler.
Oh, I'm more than happy with mine, Chris. However, the plinth is the one area where nothing has yet been done, and where I believe some improvements *could* be made.
The plinth feels very solid and extremely well damped , its tempting to think it's overdamped ? Robbing the music of a little ambience..
If I were being hyper-critical, those are my feelings, too.
One day I'll go there and address the issue in the thorough manner with which I'm known to tackle these things, but I'm certainly in no rush to do so! :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
19-01-2013, 23:57
I agree.
Just out of interest and bearing in mid Chris's post earlier, would the general consensus be that quality belt drives like the Sondek, Gyrodeck etc do the 'soudstage' thing a little better than DD or idler drive?
Martin , I used an LP12 for many years , soundstaging and imaging were not a strong feature ! In fact it was pretty much left and right , narrow and flat .
It had a nice lively bounce with good timing but rather honky tonky at times .
That is pretty much my thoughts too. Althought I would not say lacking joie de vivre - because they just dont! They are great to listen to - But I would say they are lacking the confidence of the DD/idler.
The key word there, Martin, was in comparison. Most belt-drives I've heard do lack 'joie de vivre', compared with the best D/Ds and idlers. There's only one belt-drive T/T I've heard which does the 'D/D thing' almost as good as a D/D turntable, and that's a friend's £25k Systemdek - that thing boogied like a bastard!! :eek:
But yes, I agree about the "confidence" thing, although I prefer the word 'authority' :)
Marco.
Martin , I used an LP12 for many years , soundstaging and imaging were not a strong feature ! In fact it was pretty much left and right , narrow and flat .
It had a nice lively bounce with good timing but rather honky tonky at times .
Yes, but 'ye old fruitbox' is hardly the best example, in that respect, of a typical belt-drive T/T. What you're describing is correct, but merely the inherent (and somewhat unique) colorations of the Linn, not that of the best belt-drive turntables.
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
20-01-2013, 01:28
The LP12 did it so badly that Linn pronounced the soundstage as a complete irrelevance. So much so, that you had to wonder why they bothered with stereo at all.
The LP12 did it so badly that Linn pronounced the soundstage as a complete irrelevance. So much so, that you had to wonder why they bothered with stereo at all.
Not my experience of the LP12 although I have never owned one myself I spent many hapy hours listening to a friend's set up with this deck (the original version) and I did not have any criticism to make about soundstage although I admit that is not top of my priorities in reproduction. Have to say I remain sceptical that the motor unit alone can influence the soundstage in any appreciable way.
Wakefield Turntables
20-01-2013, 14:54
Yes it is, but some T/Ts defo do soundstaging (width and depth) better than others.
With the Techy, my feeling is that the limiting factor there is the plinth (especially the rubber part) - or more accurately, the relationship between the plinth and the motor unit, in terms of how effectively vibration created by the latter is dealt with by the former, and therefore what the stylus 'sees' in that respect, and reproduces accordingly along with music, subsequently robbing recordings of certain inherent sonic properties.
If someone could build me a plinth made from a 'sandwich effect' of a solid-wood inner section (perhaps ebony), surrounded by slate, which I could just drop the top plate of my Techy into, I'm almost certain that this would be the ultimate in isolation, and would address the slight issue the Techy has in terms of soundstaging (and absolute filigree detailing at high-frequencies).
Marco.
This design of has been done before to some extent its called the inspire monarch TT :doh: The only difference is thats its wood and aluminium. Which I think to some extent is a good idea. We talk about isolation. What are we isolating exactly? EMI/RFI/Vibration ?? I disucssed the posibility of designing a new plinth ages ago but it fell flat on its arse. :confused:
I conccur with Marco. I believe that if you could isolate the tonearm mounting from the main body of the techie, you would get a wider soundstage. The down fall of the deck is that mix between rubber, hard black under chassis and solid metal.
Where would we put the tonearm?? The only way to isolate the tonearm would be to add an additional layer of dampening material between the tonearm board and the aluminium chasis, maybe 1mm sorbothane? This would then knacker up your tonearm geometry setup.
On the other hand you could argue that the sub-chassis is very well thought out and that if the motor is introducing vibration and affecting the sound the best method would be to sink that vibration, so what material is best for that? I'm not really convinced that there is a problem here to be solved.
I already thought of this as well. I suggested plonking the MN bearing on a bed of sorbothane in its pit. This has two problems. Firstly it would raise the MN bearing between 0.5 and 1mm which again would screw up platter and tonearm alignment. Another solution would be to keep the MN in its pit and then fill the area with silicone which would dampen the bearing and also additionally stabilise the bearing in place. Additionally the underside of the whole of the aluminium sub chasis could be covered in dampening material similar to whats used in CD players to stop jitter. There happens to be a massive thread with regards the Marantz CD63 KI over on diyaudio.com which highlights its usage.
I totally agree, Francois.
Well, I'm a great believer in eliminating problems at source, rather than applying a 'bandage' afterwards, in an attempt to deal with said problem, which is why I think that what Francois and I are suggesting would be fundamentally more effective! :)
Marco.
Perhaps you could be right and wrong, Marco. Wrong if your skint and all you can afford is a plaster, correct if you can afford a properly designed plinth.
Here's my take.
Lets imagine lots of nasty things get into the PCB/tonearm and all cabling associated with the deck. The PCB is housed in a aluminium sub chasis which is great for stopping EMI / RFI but crap for vibration (its not very STIFF), like carbon fibre for example. So I make a compromise in the knowledge that I have some EMI & RFI protection but very little vibration protection. My solution is to dampen the underside of the platter and fill in the holes of the platter underside with silicone and dampening materials. Inside the subchasis when ever possible sit everything on sorbothane. Additionally remove any crap from the PCB thats nots needed and anything it all that could conduct nasties into the PCB so this is all additional wiring and gizmo's that arnt needed i.e strobe/pitch slide etc etc. Hopefully this will give me some additional protection against vibration and EMI/RFI and vibration into the subchasis. I have additionally attempted to stiffen up the subchasis by filling in things like the strob / cueing lamp/ pitch control etc with resin filler.
Now the platter. I have the MN aluminium and Cu platter. i havent changed to the new version because I'm a firm believer in the possibility that rotating hunk of metal offers me very good protection against EMI/RFI and vibration (i'll explain in a minute). The platter acts like a sandwhich which rotates over the PCB offering some protection against nasties whilst the cartridge sits on the vinyl which just happens to sit on again a nice screen from the PCB, hopefully stopping any crap getting into the cartridge. Now what about the platter and vibration? Well my subchasis is markedly dampened and my MN sits on a sorbothane bed which means the bearing is pushed into the sorbothane to hopefully stop the vibration of the bearing getting into the subchasis.
The only area where I havent looked into is the tonearm. I would suspect that some of my ideas could be used here but I have not tried. ;) I do have a few more ideas like trying small ferrite coils or potentially re-sheathing my internal silver wiring in RFI/EMI rejecting sheathing.... the list goes on. I think that these things have improved the soundstage. But, the biggest and most annoying things is that I have no proof. :steam:
Frankyc2003
20-01-2013, 20:29
Where would we put the tonearm?? The only way to isolate the tonearm would be to add an additional layer of dampening material between the tonearm board and the aluminium chasis, maybe 1mm sorbothane? This would then knacker up your tonearm geometry setup.
Funny that you mention this, because that's exactly what I had in mind... I believe that if your arm assembly allows for easy VTA adjustment, 3 o-ring around the screws contacting the plinth wouldn't make too much of a problem to the original geometry...
IMHO, at least...:scratch:
To my way of thinking the soundstage is a good measure of quality. The best improvements I got in the soundstage were all associated with an improvement in one item or another, for example
Amp: from Anthem 225 to ATC SIA
Coxial Cable: from Nordost to Oyaide
Dac from Moon: 100D to Wyred4 Sound Dac-2
Recording: Living Voice remastering of Elvis hits
In each case as the quality (timbre, noise, etc) improved so did the soundstage.
My conclusion is that if your soundstage is improving that is just one measure of the overall quality of the system. Many improvements at the mid range of hi-fi (where I sit) can be done by tweaks that reduce jitter.
Wakefield Turntables
20-01-2013, 21:46
Funny that you mention this, because that's exactly what I had in mind... I believe that if your arm assembly allows for easy VTA adjustment, 3 o-ring around the screws contacting the plinth wouldn't make too much of a problem to the original geometry...
IMHO, at least...:scratch:
O rings are ok around the screws but you should be thinking covering maximum surface area. Your solution would provide the most optimal solution for dampening. I might make this next weeks project. ;)
Audioman
23-01-2013, 20:33
Just come to this late. While it may be that all components may add or subtract to sound-staging I have to go along with Marco as the source being most important.
While belt drives might be better in this respect than direct drives I wouldn't say the LP12 excels particularly in this area. On the other hand if you put a Gyro Dec in virtually any set up you should be guaranteed a nice wide sound-stage.
This would suggest the plinth design or lack of plinth has a lot to do with this area of sound presentation. I would think materials used and bearing design have a big influence. The rubber base in the SL1200 may result in it being somewhat over-damped.
Paul.
We don't always agree, Paul, but on this one, we're definitely singing from the same hymn sheet! :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
24-01-2013, 09:43
The Nottingham Analog decks use high levels of damping , yet produce a wide and spacious soundstage , why is that ?
Maybe because it's a belt-drive T/T, Chris, and so unlike a direct-drive T/T, doesn't have to deal with the vibration generated, through the plinth and ultimately into into the path of the stylus, of having a powerful motor strapped directly underneath its platter!
Think why many high-mass string-drive T/Ts have their motor units placed in separate pods, well away from the main chassis... ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
24-01-2013, 10:14
I'm not buying that Marco , don't forget other DD's produce nice wide soundstage's like the Trio or a Brinkman , also the SL1210 does have very decent depth to its stage , I feel if it was the plinth ? You wouldn't get that either ?
Wakefield Turntables
24-01-2013, 11:37
Belt drives also have issues with rotation friction from the belt to the platter which may have an impact on soundstage, I would have to agree with Chris that the 1210 does have great depth.
Guys,
You're misunderstanding where I'm coming from! :doh:
Allow me to explain... I, personally, have no issue whatsoever with the ability of my Techy (or anyone else's I've heard) to create a perfectly acceptable and believable soundstage. It is NOT a major issue.
What I'm saying is that out of all the many things that the SL-1200/1210 does supremely well, especially when modified, soundstaging is one of those things that it does less brilliantly than others!
If you accept that NO turntable is perfect (or any type of T/T drive system for that matter) then some types of turntables will do certain things, sonically, better than others. That is a simple fact. Therefore, all we can do is choose our compromises. With the Techy, this means that soundstaging is not an area, in its stock incarnation, plinth-wise, where it will excel. Other T/Ts, IMO, do that particular aspect of musical presentation better.
Would I swap one of those other T/Ts for my modded SL-1210, and trade what they do better, in terms of soundstaging, for all the other things my T/T would wipe the floor with them with? No, not on yer nelly!!!! :exactly:
However, that doesn't mean either that I wouldn't want to improve on what I perceive as its weakest link........
Hopefully, that'll have better explained my position on the matter.
Marco.
Mine gives a great soundstage to my ears. And to others' as well. :) Quite clearly my favorite source to listen to. Gives me musical joy each time.
Rare Bird
25-01-2013, 01:27
Turntable gives sondstage!!
I've often heard that one of the main complaints with the 1210 is the width of its soundstage. Well, why? What limits the 1210s soundstage? My soundstage fills the entire width of my room, but with some recordings it's quite narrow. I've always presumed that's just how the record was mastered. Any comments on the subject would be most welcome and any ideas on improving soundstage width would be greatly accepted. :cool:
Quite high and wide:).
Wakefield Turntables
25-01-2013, 15:01
Quite high and wide:). Is this your sounstage or are you describing an appendage (oo-er missues :eek:).
Is this your sounstage or are you describing an appendage (oo-er missues :eek:).
If we talking about my appendage it obviously imply a room filling sound...........:lol:
Aye, if you were standing inside a teepee! :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
26-01-2013, 04:07
Turntable gives sondstage!!
Can someone please explain ?
Wakefield Turntables
26-01-2013, 08:44
Can someone please explain ?
Isn't that your own post Andre :scratch:
Lol... He's losing it! :eyebrows:
Marco.
chris@panteg
26-01-2013, 13:55
No , I think Andre is asking a question ? I think some folks get too hung up on soundstaging and imaging malarky , how important is it ?
Wakefield Turntables
26-01-2013, 20:24
oh! I see :doh: The original point of the thread was to discuss if your 1210 projected a large soundstage.
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