PDA

View Full Version : Whoo Hoo. My Naim CDI is back and working perfectly :)



pjdowns
15-03-2009, 15:00
So I have a weird one for you.

My CDI was suffering from a 'Popping' sound after approx 10 mins of playing the CD Player, so, about 4 months back I decided to put it in the loft as I had made the decision not to get it repaired.

My wife and I decided in February to go ahead and get it repaired, so, I take it out of the loft and visit Audio T in Basingstoke who sent it off to Naim.

A lovely lady, Shiela, called me from Naim last week to explain that they had had had the machine on test for a while and couldn't find any problems it. It is decided to return the machine.

I get it back yesterday, play a number of CD's on it, and quite right, it is working perfectly.

So how could this be ?

There is a thought that it could have something to do with it being placed in the loft, allowing it to cool down, but that sounds like hype to me .... I guess it could have been something within the machine that was playing up or I guess it could have been the start of a problem, which will return ....

But, Hey, I have the CDI back and I am sooo happy.

Oh and it literally kicks the living crap out of the Squeezebox. So much deeper and controlled bass, warmer almost analogue sound, you can listening without having to turn off the system due to fatigue....oh and the instrument seperation is stunning....

Paul.

NRG
15-03-2009, 15:09
The squeezebox needs an external DAC, you can't compare one to the likes of a Naim CDi without it. Try the comparison again with a SB/Beresford combo.

Marco
15-03-2009, 15:12
Nice one, Paul :)

Am I right, Neal (or anyone else), in saying that the CDI uses TDA 1541s?

Marco.

Spectral Morn
15-03-2009, 15:44
Hi Marco

No. I thoughts so too, but it was the CD1 which has these dacs not the I model. I had to trawl a bit to confirm this.



Regards D S D L-----Neil :)

Marco
15-03-2009, 16:08
I suspected so. In that case it explains a lot. Multi-bit TDA1541s sound nothing like modern DAC chips, particularly when they're properly implemented such as in the case of the CDI, and I would therefore expect the Naim player to "kick the living crap" out of a Squeezebox.

Comparison with the Beresford would be very interesting.

Marco.

{Edit: just noticed your latest edit. Are you absolutely sure? I thought that the original CDS (the CD1 you mention) and the CDI both used TDA1541s}.

Marco
15-03-2009, 16:17
Hi Neil,

The Naim CDI does in fact use TDA 1541s. Scroll down to the list at the bottom here and you'll see :)

http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/TDA1541%20corner/TDA1541.html


NAIM AUDIO CDI TDA1541A-S1 (Single Crown) There's even a picture of a CDI near the bottom clearly fitted with TDA1541s...

Interersting site, too!

Marco.

Spectral Morn
15-03-2009, 16:26
Hi Marco

My gut feeling was that it had (but not being a Naim expert I decided to check). However I did a bit of checking and all indications I could find was that it didn't use these chips, I even had a look in the Naim forum. :confused:

I have a link to that guys site and as you say very interesting indeed...and indeed there it is, my gut was right but my mind was wrong ;)


Regards D S D L---Neil :)

Marco
15-03-2009, 16:30
Observe the picture, Neil! ;)

Marco.

pjdowns
15-03-2009, 17:07
Hi Marco

No. I thoughts so too, but it was the CD1 which has these dacs not the I model. I had to trawl a bit to confirm this.



Regards D S D L-----Neil :)

Just to clarify, Naim never produced a Naim CD1, only a CDI. A number of people have got confused about this over the years.

When Naim first started producing CD Players back in the early 90s:

There was a CDS1 (2 box CD Payer, Transort/DAC and then Powersuply) and there was a CDI (Single box player) Mine :) :)

Paul.

pjdowns
15-03-2009, 17:12
I suspected so. In that case it explains a lot. Multi-bit TDA1541s sound nothing like modern DAC chips, particularly when they're properly implemented such as in the case of the CDI, and I would therefore expect the Naim player to "kick the living crap" out of a Squeezebox.

Comparison with the Beresford would be very interesting.

Marco.

{Edit: just noticed your latest edit. Are you absolutely sure? I thought that the original CDS (the CD1 you mention) and the CDI both used TDA1541s}.

Marco,

I agree totally, I think a Squeezebox with a Beresford would give the CDI a real run for it's money....and on that subject if I had the money, I'd buy one and be able to make that comparison :)

For the past hour or so I have been sitting here, listening to many different genres of music and can confirm that the CDI was very much missed while it was away, there hasn't been a point on any album, where I have had to go and turn the volume down because it sounded too bright.

Also, the wife was listening to Tears of Joy by Antonio Forcione and said ...

"You can hear him tapping his hands on the guitar, while playing"

My life, on the Squeezebox it sounds like a confused mess, on the CDI, almost as though he is in the room.... :)

But then again, I am being a little unfair to the Squeezebox, for convenience, it is an excellent machine and like we've said, connected upto a Beresford it would be pretty good.

But it has to be said that Naim do something very, very special to the CD players to make them sound so good :)

Also, they gave it a very nice clean. Thanks Naim :)

P.

Spectral Morn
15-03-2009, 17:26
Hi Paul

Thanks for the info. Not being into Naim ( I prefer valves to solid state) I must confess to having poor knowledge of the product or its history. However my first thought was that the early Naim players used TDA 1541 but I then doubted myself. Had a hunt and couldn't find info to confirm this, but only to put doubt on it. Sometimes ones first thought is the right one...though not always.

Bottom line, glad your players back fixed....


Regards D S D L---Neil

pjdowns
15-03-2009, 17:37
Hi Paul

Thanks for the info. Not being into Naim ( I prefer valves to solid state) I must confess to having poor knowledge of the product or its history. However my first thought was that the early Naim players used TDA 1541 but I then doubted myself. Had a hunt and couldn't find info to confirm this, but only to put doubt on it. Sometimes ones first thought is the right one...though not always.

Bottom line, glad your players back fixed....


Regards D S D L---Neil

Fair enough Neil, thanks for looking into which Dac they used though, it is of interest to me :)

Thank you for saying that you are glad that the player is fixed :) ... I am currently beaming from here to, well everywhere :) ... I am having sooo much fun listening to my system again ... where as with the Squeezebox I regularlily got fed up due to fatigue.... :(

IPaul.

Spectral Morn
15-03-2009, 17:47
Hi Paul

There is indeed something special about these earlyish multi-bit tda 1541 dac using CDP's. I agree not bright, for the most part though some can be. I have a Marantz CD 94 mk 2 which I have been playing about with recently(it had sat unused for 6 years or so) and the sound though not perfect, we are talking about a 20 year old cdp, has both amazed and thrilled me. I have a new review coming up soon in Strokes of Genius. There in I will go into more detail about this (plug over). Its nice to get thrilled and excited by the music we listen to and indeed, it is all the little details hidden by poor kit, that make the whole experience come a live.


Regards D S D L---Neil :)

pjdowns
15-03-2009, 17:53
Something that is for sure Neil is that I am in no hurry to upgrade my system now :)

The CDI has reminded me how good the Exposure/Naim/Epos combo work together :)

Consider the age of this system 15 + years, it is still very impressive :)

P.

Marco
15-03-2009, 18:09
Synergy is a great thing, Paul, when you get it right. Also, I've had much experience of classic systems outperforming some of today's gear, so don't be so surprised with the results you're getting - and don't be in a hurry to get rid of any of it either! :)

Being a long-standing ex-Naimee I'm completely au fait with their product range (at least certainly the 'olive' stuff), so I had a strong suspicion that the CDI used TDA1541s. I certainly knew the old CDS did, which is why many preferred it to the CDS2, as it changed to Burr-Browns.


But it has to be said that Naim do something very, very special to the CD players to make them sound so good

Also, they gave it a very nice clean. Thanks Naim.


The quality and efficiency of work carried out by Naim's service department is legendary. I no longer use their gear but I still have a big respect for the company and some of the people who run it. They are one of the hi-fi companies which make you feel proud to be British.

You've got top-notch classic CDP there, so enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

pjdowns
15-03-2009, 18:33
The quality and efficiency of work carried out by Naim's service department is legendary. I no longer use their gear but I still have a big respect for the company and some of the people who run it. They are one of the hi-fi companies which make you feel proud to be British.

You've got top-notch classic CDP there, so enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

So reference the service, what impressed me so much was in the way Sheila from Naim gave me a concerned call at work to say that they had had the CDI on test for over a week and hadn't found anything wrong with it. She rang to see if I could confirm the fault that I thought the player was experiencing and when I explained it through, she seemed almost put out that they couldn't find anything, which to me was very impressive, because she really cared :).

Also, they cleaned the CDI so well. Much better than I could have done LOL....It looks like new again :)

Oh don't worry Marco ... I am currently and will continue to enjoy listening to this system :)

Also, I have always thought that the Exposure amp combo I have was underrated so with the CDI and playing through the Epos ES-14's the system is sounding so good :)

Currently listening to 'Dire Straits - Love Over Gold' and the acoustic guitar played by Mark Knopfler is quite something :)

P.

DSJR
15-03-2009, 19:55
Now Paul, have you set up the ES14's the way the designer intended? You know what I mean.........

I can also tell you that just 'cos the machine has TDA 1541's, doesn't guarantee a good sound, believe me. I can think of one or two "bitstream" players that creamed the cheaper Philips/Marantz "16 bit" players we sold at the time........

The CDS never sold itself to me and my Micro creamed it on a Naim system (I think the demonstrator we had is actually my machine...). The CD-I was a different kettle of goodies altogether and the CD-2 and eventually the CDX are horrible by comparison IMO.

leo
15-03-2009, 20:16
Totally agree with the above, the old classic TDA1541A is one of my favourite chips but I've heard so many units using these which sound crappy!
I've heard the Naim CDI can be turned into a bit of a beastie after being modified, after seeing some pics of the guts and layout it certainly looks to have potential

pjdowns
15-03-2009, 20:59
Now Paul, have you set up the ES14's the way the designer intended? You know what I mean.........

Hi Dave,

Nope, personally, I think the speakers sound average with the plugs in, to almost box like whereas with the plugs out, within my system you have a much, smoother, open sound, deeper bass and masses of control. I just don't like the sound with the plugs in, I have tried it on many occassion and always removed the plugs quicksmart :). Also, IMHO, with the plugs out they are an extremely special speaker.



I can also tell you that just 'cos the machine has TDA 1541's, doesn't guarantee a good sound, believe me. I can think of one or two "bitstream" players that creamed the cheaper Philips/Marantz "16 bit" players we sold at the time........

The CDS never sold itself to me and my Micro creamed it on a Naim system (I think the demonstrator we had is actually my machine...). The CD-I was a different kettle of goodies altogether and the CD-2 and eventually the CDX are horrible by comparison IMO.

It is interesting to know that the TDA 1541 didn't work well in all machines, but I guess that it just the way things go.

Reference the CDS, I cannot comment because I have never had a chance to hear one, but I have a friend that used to have a CDS and then got it converted to a CDS2 a while back when Naim were doing a deal and has regreted ever since, he much prefered the 'warmer' sound of the CDS.

Also, I'd agree that the CDI is better than either the CD2 or CDX, neither quite had the edge that the CDI has. The CDX2 though is at least on a par, if not better than the CDI.

For me, I'd guess, I'd have to go for either a CDS2 (Not sure that it work, see previous comments) or a CDS3 to get a significant upgrade.

The CDS3 cost over 8k now brand new so that's not likely to happen :(.

Paul.

pjdowns
15-03-2009, 21:01
Totally agree with the above, the old classic TDA1541A is one of my favourite chips but I've heard so many units using these which sound crappy!
I've heard the Naim CDI can be turned into a bit of a beastie after being modified, after seeing some pics of the guts and layout it certainly looks to have potential

Hi Leo,

I don't get how a TDA1541A in one machine could sound different from anther, but then again I have NO electronics experience whatsoever so it is like voodoo language to me LOL.

Intereted in the fact that you can potentially modifiy the CDI in such a way as to upgrade it, but then again, why bother, it is a damn good piece of kit on it's own merits :)

Paul.

Marco
15-03-2009, 22:41
Hi Dave,


I can also tell you that just 'cos the machine has TDA 1541's, doesn't guarantee a good sound, believe me. I can think of one or two "bitstream" players that creamed the cheaper Philips/Marantz "16 bit" players we sold at the time........


Indeed - it's all to do with implementation. It takes a bit of effort and know-how, not to mention more complex circuitry, to get 1541s to sound optimal, as I'm sure Leo would agree :)

TDA 1541s, like anything else in hi-fi, aren't 'magic bullets' - if the rest of the design isn't up to scratch then the results will be mediocre, which is why some of the smoother-sounding (but ultimately rather bland) bitstream players of the day often 'outperformed' the more intrinsically musically adept multi-bit players. Get it right though, and there's no better sounding DAC chip than the TDA1541 in single or double crown versions, IMO.


The CDS never sold itself to me and my Micro creamed it on a Naim system (I think the demonstrator we had is actually my machine...). The CD-I was a different kettle of goodies altogether and the CD-2 and eventually the CDX are horrible by comparison IMO.

I disagree about the CDS. The one you heard must have been broken because all the ones I've used and heard (in Naim systems) were superb and exhibited that beguiling musicality that good TDA1541 machines all have in abundance. If a CDS is performing optimally a Micro shouldn't outperform it in the context of a Naim system, providing of course that the Naim system in question was set-up properly in the first place.

In many ways I preferred the CDS to the CDS2 I later bought brand new for just over £6k (those were the days - not!), no doubt in no small part due to the different DAC chips. I'm sure that the transport mechanism used in the CDS2 was also different. I loved the 'top hat' puck, too of the CDS which was a much more user-friendly and clever design than the small round puck Naim then used on all their latest players.

As for the CD2, I've not heard one, but I owned a CDX with and without an XPS and found it to be an excellent CD player. In fact, some prefer a CDX/XPS to a CDS2 and I can understand why.

Marco.

pjdowns
20-03-2009, 20:56
I loved the 'top hat' puck, too of the CDS which was a much more user-friendly and clever design than the small round puck Naim then used on all their latest players.

Totally agree with you on this one Marco,

The 'Top Hat' puck is something quite special, and looks the part too :)

My Dad has a Naim CDS3 and although I'd say the rest of the CD Player whoops my CDI, there is something almost tacky about the CDS3's puck.

P.

The Grand Wazoo
21-03-2009, 00:14
I had a CDI - one of the very early ones (I actually won it in a competition in Hi-Fi World just after it was first introduced) and I sold it only about a couple of years ago. I was very happy with it. It had some quirks that made me despair, but it made good music and I had to spend a lot to significantly better it.

Despite the theory of the time that Naim stuff only really works with Naim stuff, I was always happy with how it sounded through some really diverse combinations of gear - in fact some of the best sounds I ever got out of it were through my Radford STA15. You just never know till you try do you?

YNWaN
21-03-2009, 20:31
Paul, very glad to hear your CD problems are now cured (odd though).

Spectral Morn
21-03-2009, 20:40
While I freely confess to not liking the sound of Naim amplifiers ( I don't like many Solid State amps anyway), I do think their CD players are very good...at least the ones I have heard outside of a Naim system context. This was something that happened occasionally in the shop I worked in (we didn't do Naim). I always suggested that the Naim CDP be kept, and the amplification be changed...that advice was always based on the customer wanting of the Naim bus.

I think that sources tend to have broader use outside of a mostly closed system like Naim. At least that has been my experience...so far.


Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Marco
21-03-2009, 20:41
Hi Mark,

Welcome back :)

Marco.

NRG
21-03-2009, 23:03
As I'm finding out with my TDA1541a DAC experiment, its a very fine line between making the TDA sing and making is sound so-so. I think many manufacturers just did not know how to get the best from it in the early days...

Marco
22-03-2009, 00:04
I think that's very true, Neal. It is a difficult and quite expensive chip to optimise. There are some cracking examples of TDA 1541s 'done right', the CDI (and CDS) discussed here, and the AMR reviewed by Neil in Strokes of Genius being three of them, and of course the venerable Marantz CD7 and Sony CDPR-1/DAS-R1.

However, you could also probably reel off two dozen players or more featuring TDA1541s which sounded pants for reasons discussed, but like you say, get it right with this chip and the sonic and musical rewards are substantial... :)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
22-03-2009, 00:29
I had a CDI - one of the very early ones (I actually won it in a competition in Hi-Fi World just after it was first introduced) and I sold it only about a couple of years ago. I was very happy with it. It had some quirks that made me despair, but it made good music and I had to spend a lot to significantly better it.

Despite the theory of the time that Naim stuff only really works with Naim stuff, I was always happy with how it sounded through some really diverse combinations of gear - in fact some of the best sounds I ever got out of it were through my Radford STA15. You just never know till you try do you?

Photos here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2175 (bottom of page)

DSJR
22-03-2009, 11:42
Hi Dave,



Indeed - it's all to do with implementation. It takes a bit of effort and know-how, not to mention more complex circuitry, to get 1541s to sound optimal, as I'm sure Leo would agree :)

TDA 1541s, like anything else in hi-fi, aren't 'magic bullets' - if the rest of the design isn't up to scratch then the results will be mediocre, which is why some of the smoother-sounding (but ultimately rather bland) bitstream players of the day often 'outperformed' the more intrinsically musically adept multi-bit players. Get it right though, and there's no better sounding DAC chip than the TDA1541 in single or double crown versions, IMO.



I disagree about the CDS. The one you heard must have been broken because all the ones I've used and heard (in Naim systems) were superb and exhibited that beguiling musicality that good TDA1541 machines all have in abundance. If a CDS is performing optimally a Micro shouldn't outperform it in the context of a Naim system, providing of course that the Naim system in question was set-up properly in the first place.

In many ways I preferred the CDS to the CDS2 I later bought brand new for just over £6k (those were the days - not!), no doubt in no small part due to the different DAC chips. I'm sure that the transport mechanism used in the CDS2 was also different. I loved the 'top hat' puck, too of the CDS which was a much more user-friendly and clever design than the small round puck Naim then used on all their latest players.

As for the CD2, I've not heard one, but I owned a CDX with and without an XPS and found it to be an excellent CD player. In fact, some prefer a CDX/XPS to a CDS2 and I can understand why.

Marco.

Hi Marco,

'Scuse the late reply. I just wanted to confirm that my views on the CDS were based on several demo examples (Studio 99 was one of the biggest Naim dealers in the eighties) and the Micro was on loan for a good few weeks (it wasn't just me who found this either - the sales director went mad because "we" didn't follow the party line).

I just found the CDS had a certain processing of the signal that I didn't like, which was missing in the CDI for some reason (I'm so glad that Paul D has his up and running again - a damned good machine). The CDS2/XPS didn't sound like its predecessor either, having a slightly creamy quality if anything - but SO good - this one creams my player and I loved it to bits. The bass "expression" and power very much like a good anaolgue master tape played on a valve based tape deck as I recall.........

The CDX is harsh toned to me (very "CD" like) and the XPS only serves to make the bass more powerful. A very mechanical and unmusical experience to me (I was one of the first "tune-dem" victims, programmed by Ivor personally :smoking: :gig:).

mwahahaha
27-03-2009, 18:01
Les Wolstenholme of Avondale Audio I'm sure shares your enthusiasm for the TDA1541 Marco, both the CD-Players he mods (Naim CD3 and Arcam Alpha 5) are 1541(a) machines.

My Avondale modded Arcam is probably the best source I've ever owned and I regularly regret selling it... From what I understand an improperly implemented 1541 can give a muffled top end and wooly bass - of course correctly implemented and as I heard it sings beautifully!

If I had more confidence in the future of CD I may even buy another one or splash out on one of his Naim CD3 conversions. I'm put off investing money into CD though as I do get the feeling that at least 16/44 lossless downloads if not 24/96 can't be far off from the major record labels.

Marco
27-03-2009, 20:50
I agree. Spending significant amounts of money on a CD player now is a complete waste of money, given what can be achieved with computer audio. The secret though is in the quality of the DAC used, and that is still where the venerable old TDA 1541 can reveal its magic ;)

Marco.

pjdowns
28-03-2009, 14:55
Latest update:

I have been listening to the CDI today and am hearing things that I had forgotten were there on certain albums the detail is that great :)

Have been listening to:

Simply Red - Home
Nitin Sawhney - Prophesy
James Taylor - October Road.

One thing this machine is so good at is acoustic guitar... the detail is stunning :)

Paul.

pjdowns
28-03-2009, 14:57
Les Wolstenholme of Avondale Audio I'm sure shares your enthusiasm for the TDA1541 Marco, both the CD-Players he mods (Naim CD3 and Arcam Alpha 5) are 1541(a) machines.

My Avondale modded Arcam is probably the best source I've ever owned and I regularly regret selling it... From what I understand an improperly implemented 1541 can give a muffled top end and wooly bass - of course correctly implemented and as I heard it sings beautifully!

If I had more confidence in the future of CD I may even buy another one or splash out on one of his Naim CD3 conversions. I'm put off investing money into CD though as I do get the feeling that at least 16/44 lossless downloads if not 24/96 can't be far off from the major record labels.

Now that is interesting as I had considered buying a CD3 from Les had I not been able to get the CDI repaired, didn't realise that they used the same DAC.

mwahahaha
28-03-2009, 14:59
Maybe the moral of the story is that the latest and greatest isn't always so. A piece of equipment - even though it has technologically been superseded still has that certain something that makes it very special indeed. The Avondale Arcam I owned was the same - I didn't care what bitrate / upsampling was going on - just put the disc in and hit play:smoking:

Enjoy:)

pjdowns
28-03-2009, 15:07
Totally agree mate :)

I don't even mind getting up and putting a CD in and this means that I am getting Some exercise, which can't be a bad thing :lolsign:

P

mwahahaha
28-03-2009, 15:19
There's one thing I've noticed about CDI owners (I unfortunately haven't heard one so can't comment personally) no other player will do as long as there's a shred of life left in the ol' war-horse!

I guess the killer is the transport as Naim won't be any help as far as I know. I know Les keeps a stock of new CD3 transports to be able to service the ones that he sells into the future. You should try and have a listen to his CD3 at some point - one hell of a player!

pjdowns
28-03-2009, 15:55
Don't worry, I will.

You're right about the mech, that is a problem, but I am lucky in the fact that mine was replaced when I purchased the CDI about 5 years ago and has a perfect Nextel ring, so I am not too worried about that....

Hoping that the problems I had with it before it went to Naim have gone away... it could have been something to do with me trying to clean the laser with Bluetack LOL.... Hell I am an IT geek, not an electronics engineer LOL.

Oh and Def Leppard sounds excellent on the CDI ... Love this band :)

DSJR
28-03-2009, 17:49
Paul, you clean the platter and puck innards with blu-tac, NOT THE LASER!!!!! :lol:

Glad you're enjoying it. I'm playing some good "electronic" tunes this aft too. Them Big Moog sequencers don't 'arf plumb the depths.......