View Full Version : Skale Counterweight
Ammonite Audio
11-01-2013, 18:50
I've got one of the Tiger Paw Skale counterweights coming, courtesy of Signals. If I don't like it, Alastair will take it back, so no risk. It's a straightforward and elegant piece of design that will hopefully give the old Ittok a lift in performance.
http://www.tiger-paw.com/images/sKale%20019-s.jpg
Will be interested in your thoughts on this.
Johnnie7
11-01-2013, 23:23
it may well help if your using a extra heavy cart on your arm
but my experiance with this unit and heavy carts is that:
the linn VTF scale becomes unreliable possibily because the arm was ment for a cart around (ill guess) at 6-7 grams and thats what the spring inside the vtf dial is expection to calibrate against :)
the skale has in it 3 rubber rings to give it more Decoupling ...over the 2 rubber rings the linn weight has
...my experience MM cart prefer decoupled weights and MC like coupled weights as a general rule ...but some carts do transcend the gap and work differently with both
will be really interesting to find out your results m8
:cool:
bw
j7
sq225917
12-01-2013, 10:30
It's a nice looking doohickey that, all their stuff looks well considered.
I've got one of the Tiger Paw Skale counterweights coming, courtesy of Signals. If I don't like it, Alastair will take it back, so no risk. It's a straightforward and elegant piece of design that will hopefully give the old Ittok a lift in performance.
http://www.tiger-paw.com/images/sKale%20019-s.jpg
I've got one Shuggie on my Ittok. You won't be sending it back.
If I remember when it was set up, it balances out with the tracking force at 0.5 - that's just where it balances. Set the tracking weight then using a stylus gauge. I found the adjustments minute to make any changes - seemed finer than with the old weight (perhaps it was just my perception).
Not a smack in the face change ( although others have said it is ) but very soon I realised that everything was better controlled - bass was deeper but cleaner (so initially it may seem 'bass light' - it's not). Soundstage is wider. Overall it's just better.
Also found cartridge tracking weight was virtually as recommended by manufacturer - by that I mean adjusting within the tracking range made it worse either way. I would certainly start there and see if its right. Also give it a couple of days to bed in before tinkering with different tracking weights.
If you haven't had Johnnie7 tweak your Ittok, that's what you need to do next.
ENJOY.
Ammonite Audio
12-01-2013, 16:45
I've got one Shuggie on my Ittok. You won't be sending it back.
If I remember when it was set up, it balances out with the tracking force at 0.5 - that's just where it balances. Set the tracking weight then using a stylus gauge. I found the adjustments minute to make any changes - seemed finer than with the old weight (perhaps it was just my perception).
Not a smack in the face change ( although others have said it is ) but very soon I realised that everything was better controlled - bass was deeper but cleaner (so initially it may seem 'bass light' - it's not). Soundstage is wider. Overall it's just better.
Also found cartridge tracking weight was virtually as recommended by manufacturer - by that I mean adjusting within the tracking range made it worse either way. I would certainly start there and see if its right. Also give it a couple of days to bed in before tinkering with different tracking weights.
If you haven't had Johnnie7 tweak your Ittok, that's what you need to do next.
ENJOY.
Johnnie has waved his wand over it:)
Johnnie has waved his wand over it:)
So ...... what do you think of the Skale?
:hmm:
Johnnie has waved his wand over it:)
Kinky... :lol:
Ammonite Audio
15-01-2013, 15:15
So ...... what do you think of the Skale?
:hmm:
I have not received it yet.
Looking forward to hearing about this. Ittok is an option for my latest Linn. I've just put a Khan on it, beautifully made bit of kit.
Ever compare the Ittok to a 750d?
Ammonite Audio
17-01-2013, 16:44
Looking forward to hearing about this. Ittok is an option for my latest Linn. I've just put a Khan on it, beautifully made bit of kit.
Ever compare the Ittok to a 750d?
Not directly. I sold my 750D long before buying the Ittok. My feeling is that they are very different beasts and each have their strengths, but I reckon the J7 fettled Ittok is in a much higher musical league. The 750D is good for the money but no bargain giant killer. Hopefully the Skale will help the Ittok to be even better. On an LP12, the Ittok should be a natural partner.
C´mon Shuggie. Spill the beans re. the Skale and the J7 Ittok. I´m twitching.
Softer decoupling for the old clanker? You must be joking surely????? On the decks I used an Ittok on, not just the LP12, the counterweight needed to be as tight a fit as the plastic insert would allow, otherwise the sound went to pieces in comparison. If thorough cleaning and degreasing didn't sort it, we kept replacement inserts to retro fit just in case...
It'll be interesting to read what you think, but a softer decoupling isn't what I believe the Ittok wants or needs. As for the tracking force dial, it should be extremely accurate and quite benign in the scheme of the arm's construction and lively high frequencies as supplied. I'd have thought the best update would be to let Johnnie 7 have a go at it, re-wiring, checking and resetting the bearings and possibly damping the clanky old tube out with a foam fill, which shouldn't make things worse at the very least. You never know how many amateurish dealers (:lol:) or numpty end users have been at it since it was made now, do you :rofl: ?
P.S. Loads on the Linn forum about it and "Guru" Peter Swain seems to be approving on the performance on offer while he's jetting round the world sorting out everyone's LP12's and systems. T'would appear there either is or will be an ARO option as well..
Ammonite Audio
25-01-2013, 17:37
If you read what I've already written in this thread, you will see that Johnnie has already fettled my Ittok.
The Skale has not yet materialised, so I still cannot comment on its performance, compared with the standard counterweight, but often these things are worth trying, particularly since there's no financial risk when dealing with Signals. Established theory can be wrong, you know; and in this hobby, often is.
Softer decoupling for the old clanker? You must be joking surely????? On the decks I used an Ittok on, not just the LP12, the counterweight needed to be as tight a fit as the plastic insert would allow, otherwise the sound went to pieces in comparison. If thorough cleaning and degreasing didn't sort it, we kept replacement inserts to retro fit just in case...
It'll be interesting to read what you think, but a softer decoupling isn't what I believe the Ittok wants or needs. As for the tracking force dial, it should be extremely accurate and quite benign in the scheme of the arm's construction and lively high frequencies as supplied. I'd have thought the best update would be to let Johnnie 7 have a go at it, re-wiring, checking and resetting the bearings and possibly damping the clanky old tube out with a foam fill, which shouldn't make things worse at the very least. You never know how many amateurish dealers (:lol:) or numpty end users have been at it since it was made now, do you :rofl: ?
P.S. Loads on the Linn forum about it and "Guru" Peter Swain seems to be approving on the performance on offer while he's jetting round the world sorting out everyone's LP12's and systems. T'would appear there either is or will be an ARO option as well..
I keep reading about the "lively high frequencies" on the Ittok and I´ve never experienced any of this with a 304, a 103Pro or my present Troika. Maybe it´s because mine´s an LVIII
I look forward to reading Shuggie´s verdict when and if......
I hadn't realised your Ittok had been "done," apologies. I'd like to know what happens to the bass resonance with some cartridges with the different way of mounting though. Some arms need direct clamping of the counterweight, others not,but then, in my day one could get another sub-ring from older Ittok counterweights and stick these to the existing one. Maybe Linn should sell these again, or even make a heavier one themselves?
JazzBones
26-01-2013, 15:41
I hadn't realised your Ittok had been "done," apologies. I'd like to know what happens to the bass resonance with some cartridges with the different way of mounting though. Some arms need direct clamping of the counterweight, others not,but then, in my day one could get another sub-ring from older Ittok counterweights and stick these to the existing one. Maybe Linn should sell these again, or even make a heavier one themselves?
Dave, when J7 reworked my Ekos a couple of years ago, Kondo silver wire, internal damping, etc., I got him to make me a bespoke counter weight which incorporates a clamping grub screw, I never went back to Linn's own weight for the Ekos (a big brother to the Ittok). Many years ago Linn themselves sent me a heavier Linn counter weight to balance out my Koetsu Black. If I could get my Photobucket to work I'd show some pikkies. This Ekos will go back on its natural partner my Linn LP12. On my Tekky I will be using my J7 reworked Jelco 750D, Oyaide headshell plus KB which I feel will be a better match for the KB unless someone knows better :)
Whatever, that Skale counterweight does look tasty which would look good on my Ittok2Black. Have another unbuilt LP12 in the loft.... I'm beginning to get like Beobloke (Adam)..... Have you noticed how people are coming out, as it were, and boldly admitting to using Linn LP12s on the AoS, once upon a time one would get ya pillared and shot at for doing this?
Dave, when J7 reworked my Ekos a couple of years ago, Kondo silver wire, internal damping, etc., I got him to make me a bespoke counter weight which incorporates a clamping grub screw, I never went back to Linn's own weight for the Ekos (a big brother to the Ittok). Many years ago Linn themselves sent me a heavier Linn counter weight to balance out my Koetsu Black. If I could get my Photobucket to work I'd show some pikkies. This Ekos will go back on its natural partner my Linn LP12. On my Tekky I will be using my J7 reworked Jelco 750D, Oyaide headshell plus KB which I feel will be a better match for the KB unless someone knows better :)
Whatever, that Skale counterweight does look tasty which would look good on my Ittok2Black. Have another unbuilt LP12 in the loft.... I'm beginning to get like Beobloke (Adam)..... Have you noticed how people are coming out, as it were, and boldly admitting to using Linn LP12s on the AoS, once upon a time one would get ya pillared and shot at for doing this?
lol :lol:
I can own up to having a couple of LP12s too :doh:
So what has Johnnie done to your Jelco?
I keep reading about the "lively high frequencies" on the Ittok and I´ve never experienced any of this with a 304, a 103Pro or my present Troika. Maybe it´s because mine´s an LVIII
I look forward to reading Shuggie´s verdict when and if......
Depends what the ittok's mounted on. On a 1980's spec fruitbox, the liveliness is masked by the squidgy soft LP12 colourations. Put one on anything more neutral and the treble can go all messy and vague. The 103, 103 Pro and average un-restored Troika are hardly the sharpest or crispest pickups around either, although if you sent the latter to EsCo for a full retip and rebuild, you'd be wrong in thinking they'd messed the cartridge up..
I'm not really knocking the Ittok, since I owned several and set up hundreds in my time, but outside of the closeted Linn system, it could be a bit "clanky," as experiences listening to one on a Logic 101 and Systemdek showed - the Systemdek was transformed for the better with a Mission 774 fitted for example I remember and I've NEVER heard an AT95E sound as good as it does on this combination for whatever reason :)
Depends what the ittok's mounted on. On a 1980's spec fruitbox, the liveliness is masked by the squidgy soft LP12 colourations. Put one on anything more neutral and the treble can go all messy and vague. The 103, 103 Pro and average un-restored Troika are hardly the sharpest or crispest pickups around either, although if you sent the latter to EsCo for a full retip and rebuild, you'd be wrong in thinking they'd messed the cartridge up..
I'm not really knocking the Ittok, since I owned several and set up hundreds in my time, but outside of the closeted Linn system, it could be a bit "clanky," as experiences listening to one on a Logic 101 and Systemdek showed - the Systemdek was transformed for the better with a Mission 774 fitted for example I remember and I've NEVER heard an AT95E sound as good as it does on this combination for whatever reason :)
I partly agree with DSJR, but only to the extent that a 'not top spec' LP12 does indeed limit what the Ittok can do. Having upgraded my LP12 with a Keel, radical, and Tiger paw, the Ittok is delivering fabulous results.
I had previously been happy with the LP12 sound but with the changes its in a different league.
It may be that a 'not top spec' LP12 will give better results with a different arm - but the Ittok is a superb performer for the money ( having been Johnnie 7'd). If your sound is off look to the turntable not the arm, and that includes the shelf its sat on. Experiments with Oak plinths, Acrylic, sandwiched acrylic are interesting. Then change the feet that the plinths stand on - acrylic beads, foculpods, spikes, etc.
Interesting this. The Ittok as supplied had easily measurable hf resonances (better but still there by the LVIII version) which if anything, served to spice up the rather soft toned karma and Troika in stock form - Jimmy & I always used to joke that these cartridges started out perfect and went downhill as they "ran in :)." I appreciate how different (better?) an LP12 will sound with all the add-ons (you must be rich :lol:) but I'd have thought that this would have served to make the Ittok livelier than ever?
There again, I prefer the more mellow (refined?) tones of Zeta's, SME's best (which often show how bad many cartridges really are in my experience) and the Alphason, which seemed a great and workable compromise.
We live and learn - keep it coming chaps :) :respect:
Interesting this. The Ittok as supplied had easily measurable hf resonances (better but still there by the LVIII version) which if anything, served to spice up the rather soft toned karma and Troika in stock form - Jimmy & I always used to joke that these cartridges started out perfect and went downhill as they "ran in :)." I appreciate how different (better?) an LP12 will sound with all the add-ons (you must be rich :lol:) but I'd have thought that this would have served to make the Ittok livelier than ever?
There again, I prefer the more mellow (refined?) tones of Zeta's, SME's best (which often show how bad many cartridges really are in my experience) and the Alphason, which seemed a great and workable compromise.
We live and learn - keep it coming chaps :) :respect:
Perhaps the Johnnie7 tweaks ( damping, etc.) have removed those 'resonances'?
The 'old' linn/Naim 'alliance' worked because each product complemented (masked/compensated) for each others sound (allegedly). All I'm saying is that a tweaked Ittok sounds neutral to me and allows the sounds out - so if the sound is off, it's not the Ittok. By the way, my LP12 doesn't sound like an LP12 any more - it now does what perhaps it should have always done? Cost a few bob to do - but the changes do make a difference and are not just different. Can't think of a better way to spend your redundancy money.
:lol:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.