High output MC carts

[The Black Adder]

Hi all.

In the pursuit of trying more carts does anyone have any experience of the high output carts like Ortofons MC1 / 3 Turbo?

I'm liking the idea of these more and more... And could be a very good match for the TD124 for example.

The Current addition (Goldring G800) is a low compliance cart and so is ok but not best suited for the Thorens in that regards.

My Tone arm is the SME 3009 S2 none improved.

Also, they say that the tips of these High output MC carts are none repairable... is this (really) the case?

Cheers
Joe

[Haselsh1]

Before I got my current Project RPM4 I used one of their introductory decks fitted with an Ortofon MC-1 Turbo and I have to say, I didn't like it at all. It was far too coarse for my liking with none of the finesse of my current OM-30 Super. I'm sorry I can't comment further but it was quite some time ago.

[freefallrob]

I have an Ortofon Vigor HOMC (basically a rebadged MC3 Turbo with a fine line stylus), it's quite light and fairly low compliance but works well in a Rega RB300, tracks like a champ and sounds dynamic and fun with a large sound stage. It doesn't quite have the detail, balance and insight of the Goldring Eroica LX LOMC, but has punch and sounds 'linear'.

I like it, must try it in the Techys arm actually.......

I ran it at Scalford in 2011 (I think) into an EAR834P and folks seemed to enjoy it alot:).

Rob.

P.s I haven't heard the MC1 Turbo, but I don't think it's specs are good enough...

P.s.s I couldn't advise on the tip repair, never had one done.

[Riislingen]

Hi Joe,

I can share my limited experience, as the only HOMC I have owned was the Dynavector DV10X5.

And what an amazing little gem that is :D As an alternative to MM, for the price, it´s got my vote any day of the week.

It fits medium weight arms well, tracks superb and has a great balance with a good whack down low - just as I prefer.

http://www.stereophile.com/phonocartridges/947/

[Haselsh1]

Hi Joe,

I can share my limited experience, as the only HOMC I have owned was the Dynavector DV10X5.

And what an amazing little gem that is :D As an alternative to MM, for the price, it´s got my vote any day of the week.

It fits medium weight arms well, tracks superb and has a great balance with a good whack down low - just as I prefer.

http://www.stereophile.com/phonocartridges/947/

Yeah, back in the day, I had an Ultimo 10X and it was a fabulous cartridge. I wonder how it has grown up...?

[hifi_dave]

Hi all.

In the pursuit of trying more carts does anyone have any experience of the high output carts like Ortofons MC1 / 3 Turbo?

Also, they say that the tips of these High output MC carts are none repairable... is this (really) the case?

Cheers
Joe

No, they can be replaced/re-tipped but probably not worth it because you could buy another for less.

You might also like to investigate the Sumiko Blue Point. A great little high o/p MC which works well in the SME.

[The Black Adder]

Thanks guys, some great responses there.

I'll take a look in to those.. :)

A bit thin on the ground are the Vigors and the DV10X5 though.. lol

[The Black Adder]

Does the Denon DL-110 fall in to my arena?

I know... I know you guys have probably used one of these, it seems to be one of those carts that everyone has had but I've never tried one of these so be gentle.. lol

[freefallrob]

Never tried the DL110, never heard one either or the 160 rather bizarrely!

Yeah you won't find much on the Vigor, only probably posts by me:D.

[freefallrob]

Here's an old set up of mine (the one used at Scalford) with the red vigor installed!

Get a MC3 Turbo and you have the same thing basically.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=84&pictureid=484

[The Black Adder]

Here's an old set up of mine (the one used at Scalford) with the red vigor installed!

http://theartofsound.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=84&pictureid=484

Ooooh... Dog dick red n all... lol

They seem to be quite a rarity. Saying that, the MC3 is a little more easier to come by as it's a current model. I wonder what the differences are.. if any.. apart from the colour obviously. :)

[freefallrob]

I don't think there are any differences, I picked the Vigor up off ebay, I think it was a production run for an OEM turntable manufacturer' which I think was/is Acoustic Solid, I don't think it was supposed to be available in this territory...

[Haselsh1]

Never tried the DL110, never heard one either or the 160 rather bizarrely!

Yeah you won't find much on the Vigor, only probably posts by me:D.

In 2009 I bought a Denon DL160 just before the price hike. It wasn't a patch on my OM-30 and I sold it for as much as I had paid for it. In my opinion, a very over rated cartridge.

The OM-30 is much more delicate in its presentation.

[freefallrob]

I used to own a Super OM30, it is a superb cartridge and a stupidly sold it:doh: like you do, it wasn't you that bought it from me was it?!

[Haselsh1]

I used to own a Super OM30, it is a superb cartridge and a stupidly sold it:doh: like you do, it wasn't you that bought it from me was it?!

:eyebrows: I bought mine many years ago and have tried so hard to improve on it only to find I can't unless I spend silly money and I am not likely to do that until I get a better deck. It has been my trusty friend for around eight years now.

[Haselsh1]

Rob, Derbyshire, very nice part of the World :)

[RobbieGong]

In 2009 I bought a Denon DL160 just before the price hike. It wasn't a patch on my OM-30 and I sold it for as much as I had paid for it. In my opinion, a very over rated cartridge.

The OM-30 is much more delicate in its presentation.

Funny old game isnt it, I read a while back on the net where some guy who had tried a good number of mc's (he names them), writing about how the best for him was the DL 160. Goes to show one mans meat, systems, variables and personal tastes etc :eyebrows:

[Riislingen]

I heard very good things of the Denon DL110, as opposed to the 160.

Te Dynavector might not be the talk of the town everywhere due to their higher end stuff getting most of the attention. Make no mistake though, it´s a killer cart and had quite a following here in the Nordics for a great number of years, that along with the Garrot Brothers entry level series touted by Fletcher as Tracer X.

The Dynas resell value should be pretty much equal to what you pay as well, that is if you don´t like it :eyebrows:

[The Black Adder]

I heard very good things of the Denon DL110, as opposed to the 160.

Te Dynavector might not be the talk of the town everywhere due to their higher end stuff getting most of the attention. Make no mistake though, it´s a killer cart and had quite a following here in the Nordics for a great number of years, that along with the Garrot Brothers entry level series touted by Fletcher as Tracer X.

The Dynas resell value should be pretty much equal to what you pay as well, that is if you don´t like it :eyebrows:

It looks like a good one to try for certain.

What does output voltage matter on these carts.. I mean the Shure V15 was 3.5mv and the Dynavector is 2.5mv and a Decca Gold is 5mv!...

So what gives in sound quality or is it just more or less volume?

[Rare Bird]

The Current addition (Goldring G800) is a low compliance cart and so is ok but not best suited for the Thorens in that regards.

My Tone arm is the SME 3009 S2 none improved.

Also, they say that the tips of these High output MC carts are none repairable... is this (really) the case?



Hi Joe
I'm just wondering why the mention of Low compliance!, what does this have to do with High Output MC! or im i missing something?

However the only High output MC's ive used are Denon 'DL110', 'DL160' & Mayware 'MC7V'.. The latter of which i still have & will get tipped when funds allow :eyebrows:

Actually Joe i used the 'DL110' in an SME '3009' Imp, sounded ok to me..

[Riislingen]

It looks like a good one to try for certain.

What does output voltage matter on these carts.. I mean the Shure V15 was 3.5mv and the Dynavector is 2.5mv and a Decca Gold is 5mv!...

So what gives in sound quality or is it just more or less volume?

It should be no big deal I´d say. The Croft seem to have some 1.7mV sensitivity on the phono input and on top sports substantial gain - I wouldn´t worry unless you are having gain/volume issues already.

As for sound quality, I suspect nothing.

[The Black Adder]

Hi Joe
I'm just wondering why the mention of Low compliance!, what does this have to do with High Output MC! or im i missing something?

However the only High output MC's ive used are Denon 'DL110', 'DL160' & Mayware 'MC7V'.. The latter of which i still have & will get tipped when funds allow :eyebrows:

Oh, sorry... my fault.

I'm wanting to go to a higher compliance cart, see what the arm likes best. So I've been recommended the MC1 or MC3 to try but just wondered which others would be good to try.

[Rare Bird]

Nein they are both low compliance!

[The Black Adder]

It should be no big deal I´d say. The Croft seem to have some 1.7mV sensitivity on the phono input and on top sports substantial gain - I wouldn´t worry unless you are having gain/volume issues already.

As for sound quality, I suspect nothing.

Cheers man.. :)

[The Black Adder]

Nein they are both low compliance!

Gah..!!?? - Got wrong end of t' mucky stick there then...!

[trio leo]

I had a Dynavector 10 x 5 for a few years and I thoroughly enjoyed it, it was agile and revealing, I thought it was good value for money.

regards Al

[The Black Adder]

Hi Alan.

How is the Audio technica AT24 on the 124?

[walpurgis]

I didn't like the high output Ortofons, the MC1 in particular was very unrefined to say the least. Same applies to the Sumiko BP. I found the Denon DL-110 reasonable, but a bit bright and breezy, the dearer DL-160 was much better and sounded very pleasant, the Dynavector 10X in its various versions over the years has always been good too.

[The Black Adder]

Thanks very much all... All the best.

Joe

[Dominic Harper]

I have a few high out put denons here that I plan to experiment on with better cantilevers and tips so one may be up for grabs once I have done my Frankenstein bit on them.

[Dominic Harper]

Went through my ods n sods and had a Denon DL110.
Have fitted one of my nickel cantilevers and a Fritz Gyger Sig tip.
First impressions are very good indeed. Tracking at 1.4 grams and sounds sublime! When camera battery has charged will post a pic.

[adamg]

Does the Denon DL-110 fall in to my arena?



I use a DL-110 on my stock SL1200 and find it to track very well with very low noise. All the attributes of the 1200 are maintained including that punchy bass.

I think the DL-110 has been described as a bit broadcast like in its sound and this is not unfair. It may not be the life of the party but is still one of the first on the dance floor with rock, reggae and electronic. Its also good company when its time to come down with some female vocals, or acoustics.

Excellent cart for the money. I can't compare it with many others though.

[The Black Adder]

Thanks Adam... Interesting stuff indeed.

Hi Dom, your inbox is full matey!

Cheers
Joe

[Dominic Harper]

Sorted

[dowser]

I'd recommend the DL110 too - I have 2 (well, 3 actually, bent cantilever on my first one...how much for a new cant/tip Dom?!).

Richard

[WAD62]

Does the Denon DL-110 fall in to my arena?


I've been using one for a few years on my Axis/Basik+ setup, and am very happy with it, although it only had a K9 to compete with so that's not too hard...

It's a good choice if your records are a little old and worn as the stylus gets right into the groove, whilst surface noise is reduced :)

[walpurgis]

I tried the DL-110, but found the DL-160 far better, more weight and refinement, even thought they are closely related. Shame the DL-160 is only available second hand now.

[freefallrob]

Fitted the Ortofon Vigor to the SL1200mk2 last night, god it's a good little cart!

:hairmetal:

[Reffc]

I've tried a few including the Sumiko BPS, The BPS EvoIII, the Eroica HOMC, and the Denon DL110.

The best all rounder was the Denon (lots of punch and energy but still reasonably refined) and it was the cheapest of the lot.

The upsides to HOMC over a good MM? I can't see any TBH.

The downsides? Plenty. Lets start with the advantages of a LO MC. The idea is that by reducing the mass and inertia of the cantilever, your reduce unwanted distortions and improve S/N ratio, channel separation, and detail.

By contrast, HO MC needs to have substantially more coil windings to generate the eletrickery needed to generate MM level outputs (Between 1 and 1.5mV) whereas a typical LO might generate 0.25 to 0.5mV. The disadvantage is that this leads to higher mass = higher inertia.

Why is inertia bad? because more energy is needed to dampen the movement and generate the speed of response needed, especially where frequency rises. The problem with many HO designs is that they need to be relatively low compliance to counteract inertial behaviour but also need to employ some form of flux damping. They retain higher inertia than many MM designs so by definition many have higher distortion values, which increase with frequency as well as amplitude.

Dynavector patented their own flux damping mechanisms to counteract the rising distortion issue and managed to produce a very capable HO performer with the 10x series, with that technology also employed with the 20xH cartridge.

Of all the HO variants out there, the only two that have really floated my boat have been the 10x5 and the DL110. I never got the hear the DL160 which I'm told was a big step up from the DL110.

As Dave has already mentioned, it costs more than its worth to re-tip a HO MC so value/performance means that only the competitively priced versions like the DL110 are really worth paying for if vinyl is the main source.

The downsides of going LO MC are of course the additional expense of the carts plus having to have a decent SUT or dedicated MC phonostage, although once you have these, there are several companies willing to re-tip most MCs for a few hundred pounds.

If budget is the issue and you've no plans to go LOMC then sticking with a good MM makes a lot of sense.

[Dominic Harper]

Denon now sporting one of my hand made cantilevers and a FG S tip.

http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/DSC02689_zpsfe7554d8.jpg

[Dominic Harper]

I have decided to let this cartridge do the rounds. Blackadder will be first on the list and he can then post it to another member and so on until it finds its way back.
All I ask is people give me an honest appraisal of this cartridge.

[Natalie NWA]

Anybody who wants to try this cartridge, please let me have a list of names. Alls we ask is that you take care we hen using it and that it gets back to NWA. I will send to Joe first and inform him to send it to the next person an so on.

Cheers
N

[Marco]

Oh, sorry... my fault.

I'm wanting to go to a higher compliance cart, see what the arm likes best. So I've been recommended the MC1 or MC3 to try but just wondered which others would be good to try.

Hi Joe,

Is the G800 not hitting the spot now? Judging from your earlier remarks, I thought you were loving it! :scratch:

Your SME 3009 isn't a bad match for the 3009, otherwise I wouldn't have sold it to you. There are many people, Barry on here being one of them, who use very low compliance cartridges, such a DL-103s and Ortofon SPUs, with their 3009s, so the G800 should present it with no problems! :)

If there is any form of mismatch, it'll be down to the sonic and/or electrical characteristics of your phono stage and/or preamp, which would be strange as you have a Croft.... Could you outline what exactly it is you're hearing and what it is you're trying to 'fix', which you perceive as being wrong or sub-optimal?

Hope you like Dom's tweaked DL-110 - no doubt you will!

Marco.

P.S What's happened to your avatar?

[Dominic Harper]

I think Joe may curious as to what a better tip will do, sorry Joe if I am wrong. The G800 should work really well in the 3009. I tried it in one with no issues.

[Marco]

Yup, unusually, he's not really explaining himself very well... ;)

The new cant and tip will be a no-brainer (as will going from a MM to an MC), and so I'd expect your tweaked DL-110 to piss all over the G800!! :eek:

For reference, how much would you charge for the work you've carried out to the Denon, if someone were to send you a donor cartridge, to have similarly modified?

Marco.

[Beobloke]

I've tried a few including the Sumiko BPS, The BPS EvoIII, the Eroica HOMC, and the Denon DL110.

The best all rounder was the Denon (lots of punch and energy but still reasonably refined) and it was the cheapest of the lot.

The upsides to HOMC over a good MM? I can't see any TBH.

The downsides? Plenty. Lets start with the advantages of a LO MC. The idea is that by reducing the mass and inertia of the cantilever, your reduce unwanted distortions and improve S/N ratio, channel separation, and detail.

By contrast, HO MC needs to have substantially more coil windings to generate the eletrickery needed to generate MM level outputs (Between 1 and 1.5mV) whereas a typical LO might generate 0.25 to 0.5mV. The disadvantage is that this leads to higher mass = higher inertia.

Why is inertia bad? because more energy is needed to dampen the movement and generate the speed of response needed, especially where frequency rises. The problem with many HO designs is that they need to be relatively low compliance to counteract inertial behaviour but also need to employ some form of flux damping. They retain higher inertia than many MM designs so by definition many have higher distortion values, which increase with frequency as well as amplitude.

Dynavector patented their own flux damping mechanisms to counteract the rising distortion issue and managed to produce a very capable HO performer with the 10x series, with that technology also employed with the 20xH cartridge.

Of all the HO variants out there, the only two that have really floated my boat have been the 10x5 and the DL110. I never got the hear the DL160 which I'm told was a big step up from the DL110.

As Dave has already mentioned, it costs more than its worth to re-tip a HO MC so value/performance means that only the competitively priced versions like the DL110 are really worth paying for if vinyl is the main source.

The downsides of going LO MC are of course the additional expense of the carts plus having to have a decent SUT or dedicated MC phonostage, although once you have these, there are several companies willing to re-tip most MCs for a few hundred pounds.

If budget is the issue and you've no plans to go LOMC then sticking with a good MM makes a lot of sense.

The other issue that people often forget is that of the phono stage. A HOMC cartridge needs a stage that has good range of adjustment as they offer near-MM output levels but still work best with MC-style loading. A simpler 'MM or MC' phono stage will not provide this.

On several occasions I've encountered people sticking a HOMC straight into an MM input (like the manufacturer often tells them to!) and wondering why they're not very impressed with the result.

[The Black Adder]

Hi Marco.

Sorry for being vauge... No, I love the G800... It's fine but I'm just curious in trying a different cart to see if I can take out the slight rumble which I've got.

I'm guessing here that it could be down to the arm and the deck so I was just thinking of trying something different hence HOMC's.

lol.. But to be honest as I told Dom I don't know if I can get a match for the sheer scale that the G800 (modded by Dom) so this is just a curiosity.. Nothing else.

If I can find a fix to this, that would be superb.. Still gonna keep the G800 anyways.! ~:)

[The Black Adder]

I have decided to let this cartridge do the rounds. Blackadder will be first on the list and he can then post it to another member and so on until it finds its way back.
All I ask is people give me an honest appraisal of this cartridge.

Sounds like a good plan matey! - I tried to PM but your box was full.

[adamg]

The other issue that people often forget is that of the phono stage. A HOMC cartridge needs a stage that has good range of adjustment as they offer near-MM output levels but still work best with MC-style loading. A simpler 'MM or MC' phono stage will not provide this.



I'd have to agree with this re: the DL-110. I felt it needed a little more gain than the 40dB (I think) my Project SEII offered on MM setting.

Although this isn't really the case for the inbuilt phono of the Myryad Z142 integrated I'm using now - don't have specs for this right now.

Point is depending on output voltage HOMC can sit in the middle of standard MM / MC gains set on non-adjustable phono stages. Please correct me if I'm wrong as not an expert.

[Marco]

Hi Joe,


Sorry for being vauge... No, I love the G800... It's fine but I'm just curious in trying a different cart to see if I can take out the slight rumble which I've got.


No worries, matey. However, if you've got audible rumble (common with some idlers) then that isn't the fault of any cartridge, nor will any cartridge fix or ameliorate the problem. You need to sort your T/T!


But to be honest as I told Dom I don't know if I can get a match for the sheer scale that the G800 (modded by Dom) so this is just a curiosity.. Nothing else.

If I can find a fix to this, that would be superb.. Still gonna keep the G800 anyways.! ~:)

Coolio... You'll struggle to find an affordable cartridge with the bottom-end heft of Dom's modded G800, although his DL-110 might do the trick, and give you more finesse and top-end expressiveness, too!

Oh, and sort out your (lack of) an avatar - your posts look weird and rather bare without one!!

Marco.

[The Black Adder]

Hi Joe,



No worries, matey. However, if you've got audible rumble (common with some idlers) then that isn't the fault of any cartridge, nor will any cartridge fix or ameliorate the problem. You need to sort your T/T!



Coolio... You'll struggle to find an affordable cartridge with the bottom-end heft of Dom's modded G800, although his DL-110 might do the trick, and give you more finesse and top-end expressiveness, too!

Oh, and sort out your (lack of) an avatar - your posts look weird and rather bare without one!!

Marco.

Hi Marco.. The rumble isn't that bad really.. Perfectionist as I am... lol To be honest I think my records may need a good clean too...

Will do Avatar.. I was half way through a change when something came up...

[walpurgis]

Hi Marco.. The rumble isn't that bad really.. Perfectionist as I am... lol To be honest I think my records may need a good clean too...

Will do Avatar.. I was half way through a change when something came up...

I don't know what TT you use Joe, but there is a significant 'rocking moment' in the axis of turntable spindle/bearings. If you up the vicosity of the bearing lubricant this may help keep the spindle centralised once rotating and reduce rumble. EP90 or even STP may suit. (unless of course it's a grease packed bearing)

Geoff.

[Marco]

Hi Marco.. The rumble isn't that bad really.. Perfectionist as I am... lol To be honest I think my records may need a good clean too...

Will do Avatar.. I was half way through a change when something came up...

Nice one, matey. Yep, you know my views on RCMs! ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

For reference, how much would you charge for the work you've carried out to the Denon, if someone were to send you a donor cartridge, to have similarly modified?


:popcorn: :popcorn:

Marco.

[Dominic Harper]

Sorry Marco. For the new cantilever, tip and tweak the suspension would be £400, so may not be a viable option for some considering the price of the cartridge, but bear in mind the Goldenote Tuscany Moving Coil Cartridge is essentially a Denon DL110 with a new body and turned into a low output version and that retails for $5800!!
I am just listening to the Denon as I type :)

[Dominic Harper]

BTW, I will be doing a low output version as well.

[Marco]

Sorry Marco. For the new cantilever, tip and tweak the suspension would be £400, so may not be a viable option for some considering the price of the cartridge, but bear in mind the Goldenote Tuscany Moving Coil Cartridge is essentially a Denon DL110 with a new body and turned into a low output version and that retails for $5800!!
I am just listening to the Denon as I type :)

Indeed... For me, these exercises are all about achieving the highest SPPV. Now, if the Denon in question, at a cost of around £510, including your mods and its cost new, as a stock item, is competing with and perhaps outperforming other cartridges at, say, £1500 and above, then it's a viable proposition, much the same as it is with fitting a 'posh' canty and tip to a G800!

I don't buy the argument of 'just purchase a better cartridge in the first place', simply because that supposedly 'better' cartridge may not exist, or not exist within the financial spending limit of the potential buyer of a 'budget-modified' cartridge, such as the Denon... And besides, it's fun having something different from the norm!!

Just wait until I get you to do the same with my Stanton 500 'DJ cartridge', as you did with the Denon - that'll be another 'one in the eye' of the purists!!! :D

Marco.

[walpurgis]

BTW, I will be doing a low output version as well.

New coil assembly, or just taking a few winds off? (sorry Dom, just being cheeky!)

[Dominic Harper]

I will be re winding the coils. Winds simply cannot be taken off as they are bonded.

[walpurgis]

Yes I've noted the laquer/doping on various MCs coil assemblies. Peeling off wire that fine intact would be pretty awkward to say the least. What's the standard material for the coil former these days?

[The Black Adder]

Sorry Marco. For the new cantilever, tip and tweak the suspension would be £400, so may not be a viable option for some considering the price of the cartridge, but bear in mind the Goldenote Tuscany Moving Coil Cartridge is essentially a Denon DL110 with a new body and turned into a low output version and that retails for $5800!!
I am just listening to the Denon as I type :)

Bloody ell! - Didn't know that! lol... old rope or what.

[vouk]

Sorry Marco. For the new cantilever, tip and tweak the suspension would be £400, so may not be a viable option for some considering the price of the cartridge, but bear in mind the Goldenote Tuscany Moving Coil Cartridge is essentially a Denon DL110 with a new body and turned into a low output version and that retails for $5800!!
I am just listening to the Denon as I type :)

Yikes! How can they possibly get away with that? I mean, what's the body made out of, unobtainium or something?

[Marco]

For the idiots with more money than sense, price is an irrelevance! :wanker: :rolleyes:

Marco.

[Stratmangler]

... I'm just curious in trying a different cart to see if I can take out the slight rumble which I've got.

Your deck needs sorting out - cartridges do not cause rumble ;)

[Natalie NWA]

Your deck needs sorting out - cartridges do not cause rumble ;)

Quite right, a cart will not cure rumble. This usually means a good service from our experience.
Natalie

[The Black Adder]

I've been experimenting.. It's more groove noise than rumble.

[Dingdong]

I've been experimenting.. It's more groove noise than rumble.

Try a Benz. They seem pretty quiet on that sort of thing in my experience. And get your arm rewired. Or get an M9. 'Twill sound way better.

[The Black Adder]

yep.. a re-wire is on the cards. Is Audio Origami the best place for that?

I needs a new RCM too no doubt.

[Dingdong]

Or Dom might do it if you ask him nicely.

I used vdH MSS7 in my 3009 and it was a huge improvement. The old wire fell apart.

I put vdH Mcs-150 in my Hadcock as it seemed the most flexible and it proved very easy to work with.
I'm sure Cardas or anything will be better than stock.

I'm lucky enough to have bought someones diy rcm and finished it off. Total cost to me is 30 quid. Works a treat hooked up to my old vacuum cleaner.