Hi from Dorset

[timmyc]

Happy New Year!

I am in the process of setting up a separate Vinyl system. I have a Meridian Digital Theatre system already, so am looking to see what I have to do with my present vinyl kit to better CD, if possible.

Im not looking to add the vinyl to the Meridian setup but run the 2 completely separatly.

My Vinyl system so far is:-

Audiolab 8000A+P biamped
a very old Sansui 222 MK2 (doesnt sound too good but allows me to experiment to find out why),
Rega Planar 3 (which didnt work when it was given to me but now it does!!)
Project RPM 5.2 turntable
XLPS V3 phono stage
AT120E, Ortofon 510, and Ortofon 2m Red cartridges
Rogers LS55 speakers.

I have a spare Meridian CD Transport and DAC which I am connecting to the Vinyl setup for comparison purposes. I also have quite a few identical records and CDs.

I have heard many times that Vinyl is superior to CD, so I have finally decided that its time to put this to the test!

Now I realise the system I have is probably not the best for Vinyl but it was relatively cheap to assemble and it allows me to do a direct comparison between the 2 formats through the same amp.

[prestonchipfryer]

Hello Tim and welcome to the AoS. :)

[DSJR]

Hi and welcome.

At their best, vinyl and CD *should* sound as near as darn it the same. Of course reality kicks in hard here and there are severe failings on both sides in the mastering, cutting, pressing of both vinyl and CD masters as well as the playback devices and that's when the fun starts :lol:

P.S. The little LS5's will happily take an amp upgrade (hint-hint ;))

[timmyc]

Little LS5s??....they are the LS55s...3 way floorstanders....how big do I need?

[timmyc]

My Meridian CD Transport and DAC is an interesting setup. The DAC is actually the 565 processor, which has a DAC in it. Meridian do all the DSP and tone control stuff in the 'Digital domain' and therefore I can use these tone controls when playing CDs. I dont have to touch the tone controls (which are pretty rubbish) on the Audiolab. This has allowed me to set output levels and bass and treble to try and mimic the output of the turntable.

Using the Ortofon 510 cartridge, I can mimic the record almost exactly by 'tuning' the CD output. There is hardly any difference at all. The big difference is the 'digital silence' you get with CDs and lack of record surface noise.

However, the AT120E cartridge is something else and I have found it is not possible to mimic that at all closely. There is much more detail in mid and top but very little bass compared to CD on the same system. There is actually a little too much treble really and the bass needs a pump up. Both the ref CD and DAC into the Audiolab and and the full Meridian system downstairs tell me there should be more bass.

I have used a digital weigher thing and Test LPs for setting up bias and stylus weight and although I can hear a lot of difference depending on these settings, I cant find my bass...I have also tried an isolation platform, different interconnects, turntable mats, protractors etc and am running out of ideas. The Audiolab A+P and the Rogers LS55s are not bass shy...

[DSJR]

Little LS5s??....they are the LS55s...3 way floorstanders....how big do I need?

Apologies, I misread it..... :duh:

[DSJR]

The Ortofon 510 is a great little cartridge and one I've always had a soft spot for. The AT120E is a strange one and not a universal model in all honesty. In an old SME "Improved" fixed head arm (and in my flimsy old Garrard AP76) at a smidge under 1.5g it sounds fine, albeit with the usual lift at around 10kHz which so many jap pickups exhibit these days (for good reason for their particular vinyl mixture).

My advice here would be to move the AT120E on and get a 520 stylus which is more refined and with even lower noise floor...

[Jonneville]

Hi Tim. My first turntable many years ago was a Sansui 222 Mk2, which I replaced with a Rega Planar 2 in '78. To be honest, the Rega wasn't really that much better, although as that was my first ever upgrade my expectations were probably rather high. Don't know whether the Planar 3 is a huge improvement over the 2. Both TTs were paired with an Ultimo 10X, now called the Dynavector 10X.

Regards

Jon'.

[Macca]

I would suggest that the lack of bass is down to the cartridge and to a lesser extent the decks you are using. A cart with a fuller balance will help - I'd recommed a Nagaoka MP110, you won't lose any top end but will get a richer, fuller sound than with the AT.

However to get CD type bass off LP you realy need to look at getting either a much more expensive TT (something like a Linn Axis or LP12 or a Michell) or if you want to stay on the budget side go for a direct drive like the Technics SL1200 or an idler like the Lenco G75. I use an SL1200 and quite often think I am playing a CD until it hits the run out groove.

Oh yeah you will also need an record cleanign machine eles the pops and crackles are a dead giveaway.

For the record I don't think that vinyl is inherently superior to CD. In fact on paper it is easily the other way round. Just that in practice the abilities of CD are rarely fully expoited in the recording process. Vinyl is easier/more pleasant to listen to for a variety of psyco-acoustic reasons and I suspect that is why a lot of people prefer it to digital.

[Floyddroid]

Big welcome Tim. sounds like an interesting project. enjoy your time here. It's a great forum.:)

[timmyc]

The Ortofon 510 is a great little cartridge and one I've always had a soft spot for. The AT120E is a strange one and not a universal model in all honesty. In an old SME "Improved" fixed head arm (and in my flimsy old Garrard AP76) at a smidge under 1.5g it sounds fine, albeit with the usual lift at around 10kHz which so many jap pickups exhibit these days (for good reason for their particular vinyl mixture).

My advice here would be to move the AT120E on and get a 520 stylus which is more refined and with even lower noise floor...
my turn to duh!

Its a 520 cartridge not a 510. I also forgot that when I initially set things up, I used a Grado FS3 not the Ortofon. So I changed the AT120E for the Orto 520 on the Project deck and that has improved things a lot.

The AT120E was initially put with the Rega deck and I thought that sounded very nice. It sounds completely different on the Project.

[timmyc]

Hi Tim. My first turntable many years ago was a Sansui 222 Mk2, which I replaced with a Rega Planar 2 in '78. To be honest, the Rega wasn't really that much better, although as that was my first ever upgrade my expectations were probably rather high. Don't know whether the Planar 3 is a huge improvement over the 2. Both TTs were paired with an Ultimo 10X, now called the Dynavector 10X.

Regards

Jon'.
I thought there was a big improvment from the Rega P3 over the Sansui. (Actually, I think I even prefer it to the Project). Its also very easy to change cartridges on the Rega which for what I want at the mo. However, playing stuff on the Rega has come to a grinding halt at the mo as the wires of the Rega R200 arm are falling apart.

My Sansui needs attention anyway. I am going to have a look at the wiring because it hums and crackles a bit and also mod the bottom board which is very thin carboardy type stuff. Apparently, if one changes that for a nice piece of ply and give it some decent isolation from the table it sits on, improvements can be made. We shall see....

[timmyc]

I would suggest that the lack of bass is down to the cartridge and to a lesser extent the decks you are using. A cart with a fuller balance will help - I'd recommed a Nagaoka MP110, you won't lose any top end but will get a richer, fuller sound than with the AT.

However to get CD type bass off LP you realy need to look at getting either a much more expensive TT (something like a Linn Axis or LP12 or a Michell) or if you want to stay on the budget side go for a direct drive like the Technics SL1200 or an idler like the Lenco G75. I use an SL1200 and quite often think I am playing a CD until it hits the run out groove.

Oh yeah you will also need an record cleanign machine eles the pops and crackles are a dead giveaway.

For the record I don't think that vinyl is inherently superior to CD. In fact on paper it is easily the other way round. Just that in practice the abilities of CD are rarely fully expoited in the recording process. Vinyl is easier/more pleasant to listen to for a variety of psyco-acoustic reasons and I suspect that is why a lot of people prefer it to digital.

I think so far, it was mainly due to the cartidge At120E with the Project deck and arm. Im sure when I connected the 120 to the Rega, it was completely different.

I hear what you say about clean records. I have washed a few and that helps alot. I am going to make a homemade wash and vacuum dry box very soon.