Upgrading. A tale of two T/Ts

[MikeMusic]

I have a few items to upgrade my 'work in progress' Technics

Up to yesterday the sound quality league was
Rega Isis CDP
Linn LP12
Technics

I upgraded to the Mike New bearing module and a Funk Firm platter yesterday.
Definite improvements in each case which need more time and words I will add later. I will swap back to the old bearing as it took a very careful hour between playing old and new bearing. (Having a lunatic young dog we are looking after going berserk about 5-6' away from me as I was intently doing delicate things did *not* help anything at all)
Rough guess : The new Technics combo is ahead of the LP12 now, possibly as good as the Isis.
For those looking to change their bearing. It's doable but not enjoyable unless you are into electronic fiddling for fun. Very handy having MartinT on the end of various emails.
More to come.........

[Wakefield Turntables]

For those looking to change their bearing. It's doable but not enjoyable unless you are into electronic fiddling for fun. Very handy having MartinT on the end of various emails.
More to come.........

Well done mate nice to hear you enjoyed plonking in your MN bearing. It will take several months before you can fully appreciate just what it does. If you ever go further and get the tripple regs installed then you can add another 3 months before every settles down, including your perception of what your hearing;)

[MikeMusic]

Well done mate nice to hear you enjoyed plonking in your MN bearing. It will take several months before you can fully appreciate just what it does. If you ever go further and get the tripple regs installed then you can add another 3 months before every settles down, including your perception of what your hearing;)

Not keen on the plonking, but I did like Ry Cooder's plinking after !
If it burns in like the Ultimate, Yannis interconnects and the Isis I will be a very happy bunny

[Marco]

Nice one, Mike. I look forward to your extended thoughts after some more listening.

Hope you had a nice Christmas. I'll defo be down to your place in the new year, for various shenanigans - I need to give my new Merc a proper run!! :eyebrows:

Anyway, matey, Happy New Year (and many happy hours of listening)! :cool:

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

Nice one, Mike. I look forward to your extended thoughts after some more listening.

Hope you had a nice Christmas. I'll defo be down to your place in the new year, for various shenanigans - I need to give my new Merc a proper run!! :eyebrows:

Anyway, matey, Happy New Year (and many happy hours of listening)! :cool:

Marco.

I'm swapping back tonight or tomorrow to compare better

2 whole days off for Christmas, but 1 more tomorrow !

Yes, Mercs like Saabs aren't run in until about 100,000 miles
You can show me how to extract more from my system, whatever is in it

Happy New Year to you too.

[MikeMusic]

Tested the mods again.

1. Original Technics bearing then swapped for Mike New bearing
Yes. A big improvement.
Sound stage wider with more detail.
VFM ? Yes. But from those who already have one in place - it gets better so very much VFM
2. Original Technics platter swapped for Funk Firm platter.
Before I swapped I knocked the original with my knuckles - 'ring'. Tapped the Funk Firm platter - 'clunk'
Another improvement. In the same vein as before but more like populating the spaces made by the bearing with more detail. Solidifying the sound.
Biggest change probably by the MN bearing. Add the 2 and a nice sum of the parts greater than the individuals

Ok
How does the LP12 compare ?
Surprise. Pretty well. Less detail more warmth. I just preferred the Technics setup. Sally just preferred the LP12

Some time passed. My brain worked - another surprise !

The Technics is sat on a Mana Reference top, on top of a Mana 4 shelf with the PPP, Hicaps, 500 and PSU under

The LP12 is sat on a Mana Reference top, on top of another Ref top, on a 5 shelf holding 82, Tivo, SUT and Toshiba DVD - under that are 3 Mana Sound bases.

Play Technics on the original Ref/4 shelf then on the Ref/Ref/5 shelf/3 Sound bases
Big improvement
Sometimes you forget what you know. Mana kit is good

So probably the Technics will prove better in all respects than the LP12 set up and maybe the Rega Isis, which usually sits on the Ref/Ref/5 shelf/3 Sound bases has an unfair advantage

More to come

[chris@panteg]

How did the mana change the sound of the Technics , could you elaborate a little more Mike ?

[MikeMusic]

How did the mana change the sound of the Technics , could you elaborate a little more Mike ?

More detail, everything tightened up. Overall better sound quality. Around the same improvement as the bearing or the platter, maybe more
Bear in mind this is comparing Mana Ref top on a Mana 4 shelf compared to Mana Ref top x 2, Mana 5 shelf on top of Mana soundbases x3.
All the Mana items are spiked either into the wood on the item under of the concrete floor
I assume putting the Technics on a lump of wooden furniture would make it sound quite a bit worse.
I've tested Mana against wooden furniture or a Sound Org table.
It was significantly better

[MartinT]

Great to hear of the changes, Mike. Your observations pretty much match mine for the improvements. I'm glad you managed the bearing swap but I don't recall a dog with attitude being mentioned in the instructions.

The bearing will continue to bed in for a while. What mat are you using with the Funk platter?

[MikeMusic]

Great to hear of the changes, Mike. Your observations pretty much match mine for the improvements. I'm glad you managed the bearing swap but I don't recall a dog with attitude being mentioned in the instructions.

The bearing will continue to bed in for a while. What mat are you using with the Funk platter?
Ah yes the dog. Not recommended
Take one nervous system, apply mad dog, wreck nervous system
Sally's daughter Kate kindly left Cav(endish) Poodle Cavalier cross for us to look after. I didn't even know he was in the room, bending over the innards of the Technics, being very careful what I was doing when the outburst came.

The mat is still the standard Technics.
My next task is to work out how to adjust the Jelco arm height and fit the Achromat. If I feel really daring I then balance the weight correctly on Marco's old cartridge.
Like the bearing once I've done it I'll have it in my repertoire

Not too sure what to do after that. Perhaps just listen to lots of music

[MartinT]

The Jelco's arm height is adjusted with a small hex key - you should see the head somewhere in the arm pillar. When you fit the Achromat, experiment a little with thin double-sided adhesive tape to connect it firmly to the Funk. If you like it, use Vaseline (yes, I've heard all the jokes) to form an air-tight bond.

[MikeMusic]

The Jelco's arm height is adjusted with a small hex key - you should see the head somewhere in the arm pillar. When you fit the Achromat, experiment a little with thin double-sided adhesive tape to connect it firmly to the Funk. If you like it, use Vaseline (yes, I've heard all the jokes) to form an air-tight bond.

Thanks
Best way to get the arm level with the mat ?
Assume it needs to be better than by eye.

Vaseline all over the surface !
:eek:

[DSJR]

Eye with ear backup is fine usually. My tendency was to set the pillar too high by a mil or so, but once I realised this, I was able to set the arm so it looked slightly down and confirmation with my colleagues who confirmed it was actually correct.

Most cartridges out there, for whatever reason, often prefer the arm slightly down instead of slightly up at the back. Of course the Decca is opposite if anything (it's got to be different :lol:) but seriously, most records have differing thicknesses and many cutting heads weren't always set absolutely tight and square either, so the whole thing is a shambles for OCD types. Just get it sounding right on the majority of records and forget about it thereafter!

[MikeMusic]

Eye with ear backup is fine usually.

Most cartridges out there, for whatever reason, often prefer the arm slightly down instead of slightly up at the back. Of course the Decca is opposite if anything (it's got to be different :lol:) but seriously, most records have differing thicknesses and many cutting heads weren't always set absolutely tight and square either, so the whole thing is a shambles for OCD types. Just get it sounding right on the majority of records and forget about it thereafter!

Thanks
Yes 'course records vary too so I need to feel brave and go by eye then
As it's not an LP12 I won't need pixie dust

[MartinT]

Best way to get the arm level with the mat ?

Tiny spirit level on the headshell, or else use gridded paper behind the arm, with the edge resting on the plinth surface.

[MikeMusic]

Tiny spirit level on the headshell, or else use gridded paper behind the arm, with the edge resting on the plinth surface.

Duh ! Dense me.
I hadn't connected the tiny spirit level with the headshell
Duh again - the grid - obvious now you tell me
Sometimes my preparation is plain over thinking

[MikeMusic]

Can someone tell me how to adjust the height on the Jelco please ?

I assume it's the little hole on the base of the arm, right hand side, likely what Martin says is the arm pillar - for an Allen key I don't have at home. The pdf manual I downloaded on line is as good as a chocolate teapot

Fitted the Achromat and the arm looks almost level anyway - by eye
Didn't play for too long but it sounds very good. Far more value than the price.

When it comes to this sort of fiddling I'm better at picking up leaves in the garden ........

[MartinT]

You will definitely need an Allen (hex) key of the right size, Mike. There's no getting around it.

Glad you like the Achromat, it really is a bit special, isn't it?

[MikeMusic]

You will definitely need an Allen (hex) key of the right size, Mike. There's no getting around it.

Glad you like the Achromat, it really is a bit special, isn't it?

Coincidentally a full set of Allen keys arrived yesterday so I can get to it now with a bit more guidance to be safe

I was expecting small and subtle changes. Bigger than that for sure.

[AlfaGTV]

I was expecting small and subtle changes. Bigger than that for sure.

What are you saying?
A. You were expecting bigger improvement that didn't occur
B. You got bigger improvement than you were expecting

Sorry... Confuzed :confused:

Regards
//Mike

[MikeMusic]

What are you saying?
A. You were expecting bigger improvement that didn't occur
B. You got bigger improvement than you were expecting

Sorry... Confuzed :confused:

Regards
//Mike

Management summary :
Buy one. You won't regret it


Was expecting subtle, minor improvement

The difference was more than subtle and quite marked.

Didn't listen for too long as the height needs adjusting.

[AlfaGTV]

Management summary :
Buy one. You won't regret it.

That part i did understand! Thanks for clarifying! :)
Regards Mike

[MikeMusic]

That part i did understand! Thanks for clarifying! :)
Regards Mike

Trouble I seem to have is - it's fine leaving my brain, my fingers do the right things then when someone else reads it the meaning changes !
:)

I love
You think you understand what I said, but what I said is not what I mean

[Canetoad]

I have that problem all the time with my wife. She's German and English is her 2nd language. :doh:

[MikeMusic]

I have that problem all the time with my wife. She's German and English is her 2nd language. :doh:

*Plus* !

Shes a she

and you're a

he

[Canetoad]

I don't know... She's pretty butch! :lol:

Adds a whole new level of complexity!

[MikeMusic]

I don't know... She's pretty butch! :lol:

Adds a whole new level of complexity!

:lol:

[MikeMusic]

Plucked up the courage to change the height of the Jelco
Oh, easy. Done

Achromat now in place

Undoing I found it wasn't that tight and could turn easily either way

How much leverage should I put on the Allen key to tighten back up ?

[chris@panteg]

Just nip it up , not too tight .

[MikeMusic]

Just nip it up , not too tight .
Thanks
I'll double check tonight how tight and keep an eye on it in case there is any movement

Being over 4' high it was easy to level by eye - sort of thing you get used to being a printer !

[chris@panteg]

Take your time , be interested to know of the comparison with your LP12 , how do both decks make you feel about the music ?

[MikeMusic]

Take your time , be interested to know of the comparison with your LP12 , how do both decks make you feel about the music ?
I have and will.
Rather be slow than broken

All being well the LP12 / Technics comparison is Sunday

[chris@panteg]

That's good ,I still like the LP12 , my Steely Dan LP's never sounded as good since it left .

[MikeMusic]

I'm still on the case comparing two turntables honest

Tried two cables supplied by Yannis from the Technics to the SUT
No easy way to change the cable from the Aro/LP12 I don't think

A 423.5 and a 428
We didn't know which was which
Compared. Out of around 7 tests the Blue and white won all bar one
Must be the more expensive of the two ...............

No

The 428 is a better more rounded, detailed cable.
Ok both still new and maybe I'm missing a trick.
Both have identical connectors BTW

[MikeMusic]

was the addition of a Whest Phono Pre Amp
Currently only played the Technics through it
All being well LP12 gets a listen tomorrow

[MikeMusic]

I thought it would be. No.

Technics v’s LP12
Technics up first – fine
LP12 – Oh. Not a lot of difference there. Need to call for reinforcements

Reinforcements arrive
LP12 up first – fine
Technics – bit more detail, more sustain, slightly more space, sounding slightly ‘slower’ - not so much different to the LP12
I would choose the current Technics to listen to over the LP12, but I would be happy listening to the LP12

Full Spec’s
LP12
Serviced about a year ago. Aro / Lyra Dorian / Valhalla / Original Linn interconnect via cheap BNC/Phono Connector (!)

Technics
MCRU Linear PSU/Mike New Bearing/Funk firm platter/Achromat/ Jelco SA-750D/Yannis Interconnect.

Common
Kimber Signature mains lead
Ortofon SUT
Whest Phono Pre
Into Naim 82 direct

I have to disconnect and move one to bring the other in, move in and reconnect so a few minutes in between each session.

[MartinT]

Shows that your real issues were mostly phono preamp and power.

[MikeMusic]

Shows that your real issues were mostly phono preamp and power.

Hmm, hadn't put that 2+2 together

Shows how an LP12 can be held back

[MartinT]

I suspect that the Naim is now holding you back.

[chris@panteg]

Mike I think with your 500 you really need the 552 pre to go with it :sofa:

[Marco]

I thought it would be. No.

Technics v’s LP12
Technics up first – fine
LP12 – Oh. Not a lot of difference there. Need to call for reinforcements

Reinforcements arrive
LP12 up first – fine
Technics – bit more detail, more sustain, slightly more space, sounding slightly ‘slower’ - not so much different to the LP12
I would choose the current Technics to listen to over the LP12, but I would be happy listening to the LP12

Full Spec’s
LP12
Serviced about a year ago. Aro / Lyra Dorian / Valhalla / Original Linn interconnect via cheap BNC/Phono Connector (!)

Technics
MCRU Linear PSU/Mike New Bearing/Funk firm platter/Achromat/ Jelco SA-750D/Yannis Interconnect.

Common
Kimber Signature mains lead
Ortofon SUT
Whest Phono Pre
Into Naim 82 direct

I have to disconnect and move one to bring the other in, move in and reconnect so a few minutes in between each session.

I'm glad that you could make sense of all that, Martin! :doh: ;)

Mike, could you report your findings in a way which is easily read and digested, rather than in scribbles/'shorthand'? Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

I suspect that the Naim is now holding you back.

I know a bloke with a Pass who says he'll bring it over for me to listen to......
:eyebrows:

[MikeMusic]

Mike I think with your 500 you really need the 552 pre to go with it :sofa:

The price is a bit of a turn off tho

[MikeMusic]

I'm glad that you could make sense of all that, Martin! :doh: ;)

Mike, could you report your findings in a way which is easily read and digested, rather than in scribbles/'shorthand'? Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Will have a think and then another go

[MartinT]

I know a bloke with a Pass who says he'll bring it over for me to listen to......

:lol: I'm in ultra-busy season. Will do soon...

[Marco]

Will have a think and then another go

Lol.... Please do. Remember that others reading will likely not know what's going on inside your head before your fingers hit the keyboard! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

No mention of the cartridge on the Technics.

[MikeMusic]

No mention of the cartridge on the Technics.

Oops
That I can fix easy
Ortofon SPU

[MikeMusic]

:lol: I'm in ultra-busy season. Will do soon...

Always happy to go for a short session

Can I have the Pass dimensions and any relevant cable lengths to check it will fit ok ? May need to set up another Mana table
I have the interconnect with phono out, for the Pass, to XLR in, for the Naim 500

[MikeMusic]

Will have a think and then another go

I'm in a loop, can't see for looking

Doesn't make much sense if you don't know hifi.

Short version
I compared the Technics to the LP12 and thought the Technics would totally outclass the LP12
I was surprised it didn't
Called on Sally to confirm what I was hearing. She confirmed

[Audioman]

I'm in a loop, can't see for looking

Doesn't make much sense if you don't know hifi.

Short version
I compared the Technics to the LP12 and thought the Technics would totally outclass the LP12
I was surprised it didn't
Called on Sally to confirm what I was hearing. She confirmed

Forget about Linn and Technics and try something else. The Linn's limitations (only curable by ultra expensive upgrades?) were obvious to me back in the 80's. A Technics without heavy and expensive mods will sound different and not necessarily better. I always suggest NA or Mitchell for sensible money. If you want a better sounding DD why not try a Pioneer PL71 ?

Paul.

[MikeMusic]

Forget about Linn and Technics and try something else. The Linn's limitations (only curable by ultra expensive upgrades?) were obvious to me back in the 80's. A Technics without heavy and expensive mods will sound different and not necessarily better. I always suggest NA or Mitchell for sensible money. If you want a better sounding DD why not try a Pioneer PL71 ?

Paul.
I made what I see as 'the jump' from the SQ I had to what I heard in Martin T's system. I see the complete system now in Division 1, not at the top but doing very well.
The Technics does a good job.
What surprised me was the LP12 without further mods isn't so far behind

[Marco]

Short version
I compared the Technics to the LP12 and thought the Technics would totally outclass the LP12
I was surprised it didn't
Called on Sally to confirm what I was hearing. She confirmed


Lol.... No reason why your Techy should "totally outclass" your LP12, as both are very good T/Ts. Sonically, they will both have their strengths and weaknesses.

If you want to ascertain which is 'best', then ask yourself which one you listen to more! ;)

Marco.

[MartinT]

Agreed - your other work on system improvements has simply benefitted both decks!

[Marco]

Indeed. Good point, Martin.

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

Lol.... No reason why your Techy should "totally outclass" your LP12, as both are very good T/Ts. Sonically, they will both have their strengths and weaknesses.

If you want to ascertain which is 'best', then ask yourself which one you listen to more! ;)

Marco.

Surprised me the Technics wasn't better as I heard improvements with each mod.
Raises a point that occurred to me, probably to do with focus.
When you upgrade or change one item you can (usually) hear that change.
If you change a lot or come back and compare after a lot of upgrades then the difference seems less than the sum of all the changes you heard one at a time
I'm not taking anything back to where it was though !

[Marco]

Yup, Mike, I can get that :)

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

Yup, Mike, I can get that :)

Marco.

I would love to hear a fully modded version of each at the same time.
Off the top of my head that would be with the LP12 total cost somewhere (£100s or £1000s ?) above the Technics ...... ?

[Marco]

Well, if it's the highest SPPV we're talking about, as they say, 'the game's a bogey'! ;)

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

Well, if it's the highest SPPV we're talking about, as they say, 'the game's a bogey'! ;)

Marco.

What budget figure to compare the 2 ? - that they both have to come in at or under ?
Carrying on in academic mode...
Could you sensibly use some components on both, say arm and cartridge ?
One thing that must hold my LP12 back is the original 5 pence interconnect

[hifi_dave]

What budget figure to compare the 2 ? - that they both have to come in at or under ?
Carrying on in academic mode...
Could you sensibly use some components on both, say arm and cartridge ?
One thing that must hold my LP12 back is the original 5 pence interconnect

Cheap as chips. This is/was the standard Naim incon cable and does your TT no favours. The arm will sound heaps better if J7 re-wires it.

[MikeMusic]

Cheap as chips. This is/was the standard Naim incon cable and does your TT no favours. The arm will sound heaps better if J7 re-wires it.

Ah, that's 2 cables then. The Naim one in the Aro and I assume the Linn from the weeny DIN connector in the Aro out to the SUT
Who is J7, Audio Origami ?

[hifi_dave]

That's the man - Audio Origami.

A total re-wire will improve the Aro significantly and be less expensive than a replacement arm.

[MikeMusic]

That's the man - Audio Origami.

A total re-wire will improve the Aro significantly and be less expensive than a replacement arm.
How might that affect the 2nd hand value of my Aro ?
Common sense says it should be worth more, but....

[MartinT]

If it's done by J7, its value should be enhanced.

[MikeMusic]

If it's done by J7, its value should be enhanced.

So says logic, for sure
What about the market place who may want an "original" Aro not one that sounds good ?

[hifi_dave]

So says logic, for sure
What about the market place who may want an "original" Aro not one that sounds good ?

Well, that 'market' ain't gonna want your Aro.

However, that sort of market is usually only interested in quality vintage gear, not an Aro.

However, however, Audio Origami does great work and I'd have no qualms about buying an arm fettled by him.

[MikeMusic]

Well, that 'market' ain't gonna want your Aro.

However, that sort of market is usually only interested in quality vintage gear, not an Aro.

However, however, Audio Origami does great work and I'd have no qualms about buying an arm fettled by him.
I just reduced my sale price then.
That needs some thought
Agreed about Audio Origami. I've only heard good things