View Full Version : what next for my SL 1210?
So I've been musing if I wanted to improve the SQ of my vinyl replay source what single upgrade would give me the most bang for my buck? Any change would need to be a significant improvement. My inclination would be a new arm - or perhaps received wisdom would be to get a totally new deck (what?) and move the current one on to part fund it. These are just idle musings (not least because I actually have no idea what an improvement might sound like :mental:) but might make the start of a worthwhile thread :lol:
Steve
Edit- oops! Apols for incorrect post placement :doh:
Technics SL-1210 II/Vantage Audio bearing, platter & PCB upgrades/Vantage Audio PSU/Isonoe's/Jelco 750/Dynavector 20x2/Pure Sound T10 SUT
It seems like you covered everything...
Maybe it's time for an SP15 or SP10?
On the other hand, I never saw a review of a full blown 12xx versus an SP15 or SP10, so I don't even know how big a difference there is.
Not to mention the price difference...
You ask for an improved SQ, not so simple, I think, it would be easy to change the sonic signature.
Another cart would cover that, but if you like the DV, why change it.
The DV might benefit from a lighter arm, but again, will that combo outperform the Jelco/DV???
Maybe it's time to question the rest of your set?
(I wouldn't know, as I've never heard it)
On the other hand, I never saw a review of a full blown 12xx versus an SP15 or SP10, so I don't even know how big a difference there is.
You need to read the archives of AoS properly, Karl:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1023
:eyebrows:
Oh, and that was when my SL-1210 was only 60% as good as it is now! Quite frankly, a "full blown" Techy, with all the bits that are available for it these days, would totally outperform a *stock* SP10, providing that the same arm and cartridge were used on both T/Ts.
If anyone thinks differently, then they've either never heard a "full blown" Techy, or their brain has been badly influenced by exaggerated reputations! ;)
Marco.
New and better cartridge Steve? (Better shut up on that score 'cos I don't wish to have my face smashed in and then "rebuilt" in an "interesting" way by your good self :lol:)
This is so difficult here to recommend different turntables due to this site. I mean, I could always recommend an NAS deck like the Dias as a possible alternative for example, and I can guarantee that even if you put one of my "shitty" Garrards into your amp, the 25RS would eke out every last drop they had to offer without magnifying the bad bits (general noise and rumble).
No, I still feel that Dynavector of yours is a real blind alley of colouration and feel that the next step up would be far better. Leaving aside the SPU's which we know work well in the Jelco, one of the Lyra's might be worth a look as well as the better Ortofons (Cadenza Bronze I think but can't be sure) and in fact, Dynavector themselves have a whole world of fine expensive cartridges which I guarantee will eat yours alive in terms of truthfulness... The latest XX model should be a great starting point... latest AT33 PTG? Rega Apheta (yes, it's those pesky Rega bods again with a genuinely innovative cartridge design which is direct and musical with it...)
Sorry, I'm banging on again and forget that what I want from records ain't necessarily what many other vinyl-people want. I DON'T want a nice comfy sound from records, but neither do I want total shiny sterility. THIS is where the better cartridges can come in presenting the vinyl with a musical, civilised and sometimes dynamic way (when the limiters have been turned off in the cutting) and something the Croft RS phono stage will leap on to reproduce for you at the first opportunity. Hell, the 25RS even made a Shure M97HE with suspect pedigree sound amazing ;)
You need to read the archives of AoS properly, Karl:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1023
:eyebrows:
Thanks, waiting for the prices op the SP10's to lower now :lol:
I'm joking, hope to fix my 1200 next week, parts finally arrived :steam:
Stephen that is already a well sorted Techie! If it were me l would definately upgrade the arm and cart- to what? The world is your lobster, SME V, Ortofon Cadenza........nice problem to have.
Stephen that is already a well sorted Techie! If it were me l would definately upgrade the arm and cart- to what? The world is your lobster, SME V, Ortofon Cadenza........nice problem to have.
Thank you Andy
Absolutely no hurry to move on - just day dreaming - which is nice :dance:
Steve
Wakefield Turntables
31-12-2012, 14:38
have you considered optimising your PCB?? You could do the following very easily :-
1. Remove the pitch control
2. Remove the cue lamp
3. Remove the strobe
It takes 5 minutes and removes less crap going into the main PCB. You could also have a word with Paul Hynes and have the tripple regs installed and whilst he's at it he could also star earth all the connections.
It looks like you respect Vantage Audio gear, I have no problem with that they are ace, but..... you could have a better PSU installed, a Paul Hynes SR5 might be up your street. Finally, its the same old boring stuff, better arm, better cart, maybe a nice Yannis 222 litz tonearm cable?? Worlds your lobster mate :cool:
have you considered optimising your PCB?? You could do the following very easily :-
1. Remove the pitch control
2. Remove the cue lamp
3. Remove the strobe
It takes 5 minutes and removes less crap going into the main PCB. You could also have a word with Paul Hynes and have the tripple regs installed and whilst he's at it he could also star earth all the connections.
It looks like you respect Vantage Audio gear, I have no problem with that they are ace, but..... you could have a better PSU installed, a Paul Hynes SR5 might be up your street. Finally, its the same old boring stuff, better arm, better cart, maybe a nice Yannis 222 litz tonearm cable?? Worlds your lobster mate :cool:
Hi Andrew - the PCB has already been "Vantaged" - basically a re-work of the grounding and a few extra components added _ Richard wont divulge what they do :eyebrows: although the strobe and pitch control are still in circuit so might be worth a little dabble ;)
Happy New Year :champagne:
Steve
Wakefield Turntables
31-12-2012, 16:03
Has it been recapped? Why dont you post us a picture of your new PCB? I have some photos of my old PCB floating around so you should be able to see what he's done. I have included a couple of pics of my PCB as it is now. It looks quite different from stock. :D
Yes and there are new bits on the underside of the PCB where there were none before - Richard was quite keen I didn't take close up photies when he installed it got fear of his circuits being copied -
Steve
Wakefield Turntables
31-12-2012, 16:34
Fair enough, altough it wont stop his circuits being copied, unless of patents or (c)'s them in some way.
Steve, have you tried the VA feet? Gromit preferred them to the Isonoes. Just a thought.
New deck :yay:
Surely it will cost more than £500 to get the 1210 up to the level of an SP10 won't it?
Put the money straight into the better deck would be my opinion.
What you get with a 1210 is a whole range of upgrades already made that you pay for. If you're going to do DIY though then surely you can make the same kind of upgrades to the SP10 and start from a better base.
Does a tricked out 1210 out perform a kenwood L07D? One of those will cost you about £2300 and might even increase in value whereas I'd have thought that new 1210 upgrades will depreciate rapidly after installation.
Steve, have you tried the VA feet? Gromit preferred them to the Isonoes. Just a thought.
No I've not tried those - good idea David - I'll try a set.
Regards
Steve
Steve, have you tried the VA feet? Gromit preferred them to the Isonoes. Just a thought.
VA feet arrived and fitted. A definite improvement on the isonoe's! Bass is tighter and " faster" - overall presentation is " cleaner & snappier"
Isonoe's going on eBay tomorrow. :wave:
Steve
Wakefield Turntables
07-01-2013, 16:47
how long did it take you to decided the VA feet made a big improvement?
how long did it take you to decided the VA feet made a big improvement?
1 side of Dark Side of The Moon :) - The difference was that obvious.
Verified after several other albums of various genre (Dire Straits, Dylan, Jansch, Forcione)
I've been paying particular attention to the SQ and characteristics over the last few weeks as I have installed a new cartridge and SUT and used the above records as my "benchmarks" so I've grown very familiar with each and every one so I'm confident the difference I am hearing is real not imaginary :eyebrows:
Steve
chris@panteg
07-01-2013, 22:43
Steve , I've swapped my Isonoes for the VA feet from my QL1 , sounds interesting , will listen for a few more days then swap back , the bass appears to sound cleaner with a bit more snap , and is there a bit more upper bass punch ? Top end sounds a little crisper too , mmm don't want to get rid of the Isonoes but I may use them on something else ?
Steve , I've swapped my Isonoes for the VA feet from my QL1 , sounds interesting , will listen for a few more days then swap back , the bass appears to sound cleaner with a bit more snap , and is there a bit more upper bass punch ? Top end sounds a little crisper too , mmm don't want to get rid of the Isonoes but I may use them on something else ?
Chris
Sounds like your ears are hearing the same as mine :)
My New Year resolution is to "move on" kit I'm not using if at all possible so the Isonoe's have gone - my pathetic attempt at getting rid of possessions and so attaining Nirvana :harp:
- or is that Karma/Troika/Asak ....... ;)
Steve
chris@panteg
07-01-2013, 23:04
Yeah , is there some synergy going on with all the vantage bits , maybe ?
Steve , do you find the VA psu quite sensitive to feedback ? Been experimenting with mine , got some disastrous results with it on the floor under the rack , not so surprising but it was interesting lol .
Yeah , is there some synergy going on with all the vantage bits , maybe ?
Steve , do you find the VA psu quite sensitive to feedback ? Been experimenting with mine , got some disastrous results with it on the floor under the rack , not so surprising but it was interesting lol .
Chris - I was thinking the same thing regarding VA synergy - it does seem a little strange that such simple feet can make such a difference and to my (our) ears sound "better" than the Isonoe's - I'm guessing that with the VA platter etc etc they somehow all gel.
No, not come across any issues like that with my PSU - it seems immune to feedback - mine is on the bottom shelf of the rack next door to the Croft S4s and immediately below the 25RS PSU so sandwiched between big transformers
Steve
chris@panteg
07-01-2013, 23:17
Thanks Steve , I put the psu back on its shelf and all is well , it did sound quite a lot worse on the floor though , be interesting to hear from anyone using the VA feet with other mods , MN bearing/funk platter and Paul Hynes psu etc ?
Chaps - interesting to get you observations re the VA feet vs the Isonoes. I had both sets of feet for quite some time so was fortunate enough in having the time to do some quite lengthy comparisons. Not back-to-back as we fall into the 'different/better?' trap that way. Always spending several days with one particular set in place.
The Iso's certainly clean the sound up but at the expense of making the deck (in its own spec, in my rig) more monochromatic in musical terms. They made the deck sound neater, more ordered but somehow robbed it of fizz, musical energy and, well, 'guts' for want of a better word.
The VA feet do a similar clean-up job but leave the good bits in place - the drive, the feeling of music actually going somewhere (ie those bits we know and love about the Tecchy). Tenor Saxophone - sorry to keeping banging on about it but it's an instrument I know inside out and it's a bitch to reproduce - breathes from its diaphragm with the VA feet, but it's all tight shoulders and chest with the Iso's. For 25 quid I'd put hand on heart and say the VA's get my award for the best bang-for-buck you can buy for the deck.
I can appreciate they may not work as well in some other set-ups and has been said by you guys, they may well be sensitive (dependant?) on what else has been done. My 1210 had TS HE psu/Achromat/VA bearing/Sumiko headshell/2M Black.
chris@panteg
09-01-2013, 22:55
Hi Richard , you put it much better than I can ! But yeah I put the Isonoes back on today , and played my del amitri LP , waking hours , it sounded tidy and clean but at the same time a little boring and safe sounding ? Yet two days ago the same LP sounded full of sparkle and energy , I'm going to change back again to make sure I'm not going slightly mad ?
Not back-to-back as we fall into the 'different/better?' trap that way. Always spending several days with one particular set in place.
Always a danger but the difference when I put the VA feet in was truly night and day. It's interesting that we all seem to be hearing improvements in the same areas. Totally agree with you about reproducing Sax. My brother in law is a semi-professional sax player and "got me into" Norwegian Jaz (Nils Molvaer, Jan Garbarek etc) and getting that sound right is critical but when it's right the neck hairs tingle :)
Steve
Always a danger but the difference when I put the VA feet in was truly night and day.
Steve
In this sort of situation it's a done deal - always great when the improvements are so immediately apparent, and repeatable by swapping back and forth. What I also like about the VA feet is their simplicity - basically 4 bits of tapered rubber with an M6 threaded bolt in each one, they almost look like they shouldn't work.
Such an improvement for the price of 2 fairly decent bottles of wine. :)
Wakefield Turntables
10-01-2013, 08:55
So am I right in saying that these feet cost twenty five quid :scratch:
So am I right in saying that these feet cost twenty five quid :scratch:
Yup. :)
chris@panteg
10-01-2013, 11:48
Hi Richard , you put it much better than I can ! But yeah I put the Isonoes back on today , and played my del amitri LP , waking hours , it sounded tidy and clean but at the same time a little boring and safe sounding ? Yet two days ago the same LP sounded full of sparkle and energy , I'm going to change back again to make sure I'm not going slightly mad ?
Did a bit more listening this morning with the Isonoes ,and in all honesty it sounds rather good ! Hard to find much fault , Tears for Fears ,songs from the big chair and the Doors ,Strange Days , will swap back to the VA feet and listen again over the weekend .
have you considered optimising your PCB?? You could do the following very easily :-
1. Remove the pitch control
2. Remove the cue lamp
3. Remove the strobe
It takes 5 minutes and removes less crap going into the main PCB. You could also have a word with Paul Hynes and have the tripple regs installed and whilst he's at it he could also star earth all the connections.
It looks like you respect Vantage Audio gear, I have no problem with that they are ace, but..... you could have a better PSU installed, a Paul Hynes SR5 might be up your street. Finally, its the same old boring stuff, better arm, better cart, maybe a nice Yannis 222 litz tonearm cable?? Worlds your lobster mate :cool:
Andrew.
All good suggestions (and at no cost) and now actioned.
I'd already substituted the VA feet for the Isonoe's and liked what they did regarding tighter bass.
Having now disabled the strobe and pitch control presentation is a tad more forward and imaging is tighter. I've got this idea to remove the pitch control and cue lamp completely - just trying to source a supplier of a custom top plate to cover over the resulting gaps and generally smarten up the aesthetics.
Just place an order for a MN bearing so will be very interested to hear how it compares to my VA one. I sincerely hope there is an audible improvement :eyebrows:
Steve
chris@panteg
26-01-2013, 16:48
Interesting move Steve , not sure about thge VA feet now ? Isonoes give better isolation in my system ,but supports and set up are far from ideal ? Speakers too close to the deck ,not so good .
I hope the MN bearing does it for you .
I hope the MN bearing does it for you .
To be honest Chris I don't know what to expect other than the definite feeling I've not reached the end of what's possible with the deck. I do know I will be keeping the VA PSU as its integral now to the PCB and works just fine. I also think aesthetically an S shaped arm suits the deck so will be keeping the Jelco so that really just leaves the bearing. I still think it's a lot of dollar for a bearing but given the manufacturing tolerances and materials I can understand why. I guess if it doesn't give me a big improvement over the VA bearing I should be able to sell it on.
Steve
chris@panteg
26-01-2013, 17:29
I look forward to your findings Steve , and yes I aggree the SL1200 is old school and S shaped arms look right on it .
Wakefield Turntables
26-01-2013, 20:20
Stephen,
You have done a lot of the things I have done with my 1210 if you read this thread http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9568&highlight=1210+gonna you will get a complete history of what Ive done to the deck alongside loads of comments from other people.
Also if you look at this post http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9568&highlight=1210+gonna&page=24 you can see what the 1210 look like with the pitchshifter / strobe and cue light removed, and with the plinth filled in. This just happens to be my deck :D
Hope this helps with your deck
Andy
Stephen, if you consider moving the VA bearing on could you keep me in mind please?
you can see what the 1210 look like with the pitchshifter / strobe and cue light removed, and with the plinth filled in. This just happens to be my deck :D
Hope this helps with your deck
Andy
Thanks Andy - yes this is the "look" I had in mind with the extraneous bits & bobs removed. I toyed with getting a second clapped out sl 1210 just for the top plate so i could fill in and spray (might still do this) but am looking to see if I can lay my hands on a customised powder coated top plate.
Steve
Stephen, if you consider moving the VA bearing on could you keep me in mind please?
Absolutely Dave.
Steve
Thank you Steven, PM me when you are ready to let it go please ;)
Wakefield Turntables
26-01-2013, 21:32
Stephen,
You might also want to consider getting rid of the lid and also the hinges it's a widely known tweek which helps produce a better sound, and its free. ;)
Andy
Stephen,
You might also want to consider getting rid of the lid and also the hinges it's a widely known tweek which helps produce a better sound, and its free. ;)
Andy
I'd love to do that Andrew but I live in the opposite of the quintessential "pet and smoke free" house :eek:
We have a coal fire in the same room as the HiFi and 2 dogs who believe I was put on earth solely to ensure their comfort :eyebrows:
The lid stays firmly closed ;)
Steve
Wakefield Turntables
27-01-2013, 09:25
Ah the good old coal fire, used to have one, my area went a smoke free zone (hence no coal fire), no everyone wants a woodburner installing to drop fuel prices, talk about fulll circle. :doh: OK, keep your lid!
PS I have a cocker spaniel and he seems to think that the world revolves around him as well. :lol:
I still think it's a lot of dollar for a bearing but given the manufacturing tolerances and materials I can understand why. I guess if it doesn't give me a big improvement over the VA bearing I should be able to sell it on.
Hi Steve,
Nice one, mate. I'll be very interested to read your findings, as I don't think that anyone has yet compared a VA bearing with a Mike New one :)
Incidentally, are VA still in business, or more to the point, behaving like they're in business? Is Richard back on the scene? TBH, much as I consider their products for the Techy as an excellent and viable option to others, I'm loathe to recommend them to people if all it leads to is a frustrating dead end.....
Oh, and coal fires rule! Ours, however, is well away from the listening room!!
Marco.
Hi Marco
Mike emailed me today - my bearing in post on Tuesday - says he's got 5 left of current production run and due to increasing costs may not produce any more - so for folk thinking of getting one might be worth moving soon.
Regarding VA they have had "domestic" problems. I've had prompt email replies from Carole but nothing from Richard for months. They are slowly getting back orders out but even a supporter like me would be wary of going fully VA from scratch.
Steve
Thanks for the update, Steve. I'm afraid that much as I sympathise with Richard's domestic problems (and I hope that things are better soon), this situation has been dragging on now for months.
At the end of the day, you have to decide whether running a business remains viable if your personal circumstances dictate that you are unable to run the business efficiently.
Customers will only have limited patience with being continually let down and frustrated. Therefore, until such times as VA get fully back on their feet and can fulfil their orders promptly and efficiently, I won't be recommending their products here.
Marco.
BTH K10A
27-01-2013, 11:04
The limiting factor of the SL-1210 is the motor. Whilst not bad, better is to be found in other turntables.
The SP-10 Mk2 has a much better motor unit that was further improved in the Mk3 and I would suggest going for one of these.
Another alternative is the EMT 938. This has a very good motor unit and you can have an arm board made to fit any arm. You can also bypass the onboard phono amp if you wish.
In the long run the SP-10 Mk2 or EMT 938 / 948 would probably be more cost effective than trying to raise the 1210 to the next level.
Or, you could be a trend setter and bring the first Mechlabor SL-102 into the country. :)
The limiting factor of the SL-1210 is the motor. Whilst not bad, better is to be found in other turntables.
Whilst technically that may be the case, Andy, in my experience, it doesn't translate into it being so, subjectively, when listening - especially when an SL-1200 or 1210 has been extensively modified in other areas, in order that those areas become arguably better than that found as standard on an SP10.
Therefore, if you can't hear any sonic benefits of the technically superior motor unit, then such a matter is not an issue. As I've said before, I've yet to hear an SP10 outperform my judiciously modified SL-1210 - and I've listened to many superb examples of the former. If that weren't the case, I'd have sold my SL-1210 and bought an SP10.
The fact that I haven't done so should tell you something, as I'm not the type of person who would carry on using what my ears told me was an inferior turntable, just to be 'different'...!! ;)
At some point, I'll have to bring down my Techy and compare it with your EMTs (do you have an SP10?) in your rather nice system, which I'm sure would prove to be an educational exercise for both of us :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
27-01-2013, 11:36
The limiting factor of the SL-1210 is the motor. Whilst not bad, better is to be found in other turntables.
The SP-10 Mk2 has a much better motor unit that was further improved in the Mk3 and I would suggest going for one of these.
Another alternative is the EMT 938. This has a very good motor unit and you can have an arm board made to fit any arm. You can also bypass the onboard phono amp if you wish.
In the long run the SP-10 Mk2 or EMT 938 / 948 would probably be more cost effective than trying to raise the 1210 to the next level.
Or, you could be a trend setter and bring the first Mechlabor SL-102 into the country. :)
There is a mk3 for sale on eBay , has been for a while now , not sold yet though ?
Mk2 is a little easier to come by .
Shame about Richard , looks like he won't be coming back ? So what future for Vantage audio ?
The limiting factor of the SL-1210 is the motor. Whilst not bad, better is to be found in other turntables.
The SP-10 Mk2 has a much better motor unit that was further improved in the Mk3 and I would suggest going for one of these.
Another alternative is the EMT 938. This has a very good motor unit and you can have an arm board made to fit any arm. You can also bypass the onboard phono amp if you wish.
In the long run the SP-10 Mk2 or EMT 938 / 948 would probably be more cost effective than trying to raise the 1210 to the next level.
Or, you could be a trend setter and bring the first Mechlabor SL-102 into the country. :)
Without sounding like a broken record, l believe The Monarch Inspire TT has the SL1200 motor ( although tweaked) and that don't sound too shabby.......:)
Think there are three MK3s on the auction site, but very expensive, talk about waiting for a bus.
I'm of the opinion that the SL1200 motor, and bearing for that matter, are more than adequate for the job they have to do. Admittedly if you are to replace the platter with a heavier one and add a record weight this will maybe start stretching things. Also I can see that in a 'completed' system such as some here have (Marco, Martin T etc) where all other aspects have been addressed in detail then maybe some over -engineering in the motor/bearing/psu area may be beneficial, but in most cases I would imagine that the money could be spent more usefully elsewhere in the system.
chris@panteg
27-01-2013, 12:07
Think there are three MK3s on the auction site, but very expensive, talk about waiting for a bus.
Only one for sale in UK though , would have it if I could , Marco could and should buy it :)
The Grand Wazoo
27-01-2013, 12:14
Whilst technically that may be the case, Andy, in my experience, it doesn't translate into it being so, subjectively, when listening - especially when an SL-1200 or 1210 has been extensively modified in other areas, in order that those areas become arguably better than that found as standard on an SP10.
Therefore, if you can't hear any sonic benefits of the technically superior motor unit, then such a matter is not an issue. As I've said before, I've yet to hear an SP10 outperform my judiciously modified SL-1210 - and I've listened to many superb examples of the former. If that weren't the case, I'd have sold my SL-1210 and bought an SP10.
But surely Marco, the point you're missing here is that an SP10 can also have those other things that you've added to your TT - better bearing, platter, PSU. Your philosophy with the 12xx, as I understand it, has been that motor is the star of the show. Persuade someone to make you the suitable bits and you must surely stand a good chance of ending up with a better result?
Put simply, you've never heard a 'judiciously modified SP10' to compare.
But surely Marco, the point you're missing here is that an SP10 can also have those other things that you've added to your TT - better bearing, platter, PSU. Your philosophy with the 12xx, as I understand it, has been that motor is the star of the show. Persuade someone to make you the suitable bits and you must surely stand a good chance of ending up with a better result?
Put simply, you've never heard a 'judiciously modified SP10' to compare.
:popcorn:
I completely agree, Chris. But that's not the argument that was put forward by Andy (or other people before him who've opined something similar). He's talking about a STOCK SP10 still being better than a judiciously modified SL-1210! ;)
I contend, based on considerable experience of listening to both, that it isn't, and that the benefits of the technically superior motor unit, in the SP10, are negated by those of the superior quality bearing, PSU, platter, etc, on my 1210.
I have have little doubt whatsoever that if the same 'tweakage', as has been applied to my SL-1210, were applied to an SP10, the end result would be better!! :) Trouble is, I'm not aware of anyone who's done that yet, or even if there are suitable mods available for SP10s, to do that job.
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
27-01-2013, 12:36
There ya go - sounds like a challenge for you!
Dingdong
27-01-2013, 12:49
The limiting factor of the SL-1210 is the motor. Whilst not bad, better is to be found in other turntables.
The SP-10 Mk2 has a much better motor unit that was further improved in the Mk3 and I would suggest going for one of these.
Another alternative is the EMT 938. This has a very good motor unit and you can have an arm board made to fit any arm. You can also bypass the onboard phono amp if you wish.
In the long run the SP-10 Mk2 or EMT 938 / 948 would probably be more cost effective than trying to raise the 1210 to the next level.
Or, you could be a trend setter and bring the first Mechlabor SL-102 into the country. :)
I'm really not sure that the SP-10 does have the better motor. It has more torque, I believe, but this does not translate to being a better motor for hifi purposes. I reckon that it would probably lead to more 'cogging' effects.
I quite like the Brinkmann idea of having a low torque direct drive motor with a heavier platter. I think there is a white paper on their website about it.
My current favourite idea at the moment is towards low torque motors and heavy platters.
There ya go - sounds like a challenge for you!
One day, maybe! However, if I'm going to get another turntable, to add to the Techy, it's more likely to be a nice TD-124 or an Audio Grail fully-refurbished, Grey Hammerite-finished BBC Garrard 301.
Those interest me more... There's something about the idler sound, when done well, that is VERY special! :)
Marco.
I'm really not sure that the SP-10 does have the better motor. It has more torque, I believe, but this does not translate to being a better motor for hifi purposes. I reckon that it would probably lead to more 'cogging' effects.
I quite like the Brinkmann idea of having a low torque direct drive motor with a heavier platter. I think there is a white paper on their website about it.
My current favourite idea at the moment is towards low torque motors and heavy platters.
The theory is sound, Mark. Trouble is, in practice, it's not so good. When I compared my modded Techy to a mate's top Brinkmann direct-drive (I forget the model - it wasn't the Bardo, but the one up from that - is it the Oasis?) the Techy pissed all over it, so much so my mate sold the Brinkmann two days later!! ;)
Marco.
Dingdong
27-01-2013, 13:21
The theory is sound, Mark. Trouble is, in practice, it's not so good. When I compared my modded Techy to a mate's top Brinkmann direct-drive (I forget the model - it wasn't the Bardo, but the one up from that - is it the Oasis?) the Techy pissed all over it, so much so my mate sold the Brinkmann two days later!! ;)
Marco.
It is just my current thinking. I quite like the idea of big, heavy platters at the moment. In a dd turntable the motor and drive would have to be set for it.
I have yet to hear a Brinkmann. But my SP-10 won't be going anywhere soon anyway.
Wakefield Turntables
27-01-2013, 15:54
In the long run the SP-10 Mk2 or EMT 938 / 948 would probably be more cost effective than trying to raise the 1210 to the next level.
Perhaps this is so but you would have to find a very good example of each for this to be true and that costs money. Secondly, the time taken spent looking for such an example could have been spent listening to your favourite vinyl on a fully pimped out 1210 :D
Without sounding like a broken record, l believe The Monarch Inspire TT has the SL1200 motor ( although tweaked) and that don't sound too shabby.......:)
hmmmm interesting, any ideas on what these tweaks are?
BTH K10A
27-01-2013, 16:01
I'm really not sure that the SP-10 does have the better motor. It has more torque, I believe, but this does not translate to being a better motor for hifi purposes. I reckon that it would probably lead to more 'cogging' effects.
I thought that the SP-10 had more stators than the SL-1200/1210 and even more in the Mk3. The same motor as that in the Mk3 was used in SP-02 conversions of Neumann cutting lathes. If cogging was an issue we'd all be hearing it in our records.
BTH K10A
27-01-2013, 16:20
Whilst technically that may be the case, Andy, in my experience, it doesn't translate into it being so, subjectively, when listening - especially when an SL-1200 or 1210 has been extensively modified in other areas, in order that those areas become arguably better than that found as standard on an SP10.
Therefore, if you can't hear any sonic benefits of the technically superior motor unit, then such a matter is not an issue. As I've said before, I've yet to hear an SP10 outperform my judiciously modified SL-1210 - and I've listened to many superb examples of the former. If that weren't the case, I'd have sold my SL-1210 and bought an SP10.
The fact that I haven't done so should tell you something, as I'm not the type of person who would carry on using what my ears told me was an inferior turntable, just to be 'different'...!! ;)
At some point, I'll have to bring down my Techy and compare it with your EMTs (do you have an SP10?) in your rather nice system, which I'm sure would prove to be an educational exercise for both of us :)
Marco.
Marco, I was assuming the OP would want to undertake mods to the TT in the same way as he has done to his 1210. That's why I pointed out that although an EMT 938 comes as a plug and play package, it is possible to modify it quite easily.
I've heard some dreadful SP-10's and a few that were very very good. I just think that if some of the ingenuity that I've seen on modded 1200/1210's was put into an SP10, the result could be exceptional. :)
I don't have am SP-10 but should have bought one that was on ebay last year. It was not too far away and came with a Dynavector DV-505. All for a £500 BIN price. :doh:
Without sounding like a broken record, l believe The Monarch Inspire TT has the SL1200 motor ( although tweaked) and that don't sound too shabby.......:)
hmmmm interesting, any ideas on what these tweaks are?
http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/assets/hfn_inspire-monarch_pm.pdf
You can see it here. Its no secret that its electronics are based on the 1200.
I don't know what's been done internally but I suspect it will be a cap change and maybe some separate local regulation. The PSU will have been made by Fidelity Audio for sure.
Wakefield Turntables
27-01-2013, 18:50
http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/assets/hfn_inspire-monarch_pm.pdf
You can see it here. Its no secret that its electronics are based on the 1200.
I don't know what's been done internally but I suspect it will be a cap change and maybe some separate local regulation. The PSU will have been made by Fidelity Audio for sure.
So pretty much what I have done with having my PCB recapped and the PH tripple internal regs added. Love to see how they regulated the PCB and which bits they considered needed to be regulated.
I very much doubt there will be any more done than you have already. I don't think there is an awful lot more to do over whats been discussed here. Brents power supply will be large VA, masses of very high quality uF and modigfied SPower regulation (to deal with the higher voltage required).
Seeing as Inspire have lots of special machining done, at that price, I doubt you'd find a techie bearing in the middle of the motor either :eyebrows:
My new Mike New bearing arrived today :mex:
Phenomenal service from Mike as only posted from Oz 3 days ago.
I am really looking forward to spending a little time tomorrow installing it. I know Mike also sells a "bearing support kit" to give ultimate rigidity but being a cheap skate ****ard I reckon I can "duplicate" one from spare items/bolts I have here - I'l see when all is in bits tomorrow. It certainly looks a fine piece of engineering.
Steve
My new Mike New bearing arrived today :mex:
Phenomenal service from Mike as only posted from Oz 3 days ago.
I am really looking forward to spending a little time tomorrow installing it. I know Mike also sells a "bearing support kit" to give ultimate rigidity but being a cheap skate ****ard I reckon I can "duplicate" one from spare items/bolts I have here - I'l see when all is in bits tomorrow. It certainly looks a fine piece of engineering.
Steve
:cool::popcorn:
Wakefield Turntables
01-02-2013, 20:35
My new Mike New bearing arrived today :mex:
Phenomenal service from Mike as only posted from Oz 3 days ago.
I am really looking forward to spending a little time tomorrow installing it. I know Mike also sells a "bearing support kit" to give ultimate rigidity but being a cheap skate ****ard I reckon I can "duplicate" one from spare items/bolts I have here - I'l see when all is in bits tomorrow. It certainly looks a fine piece of engineering.
Steve
I have the base plate fitted as well, its better to glue the baseplate into place as the subchasis can fracture if its not drilled properly. ;)
I have the base plate fitted as well, its better to glue the baseplate into place as the subchasis can fracture if its not drilled properly. ;)
Thanks Andrew - yes I was minded to Araldite it. I need to measure the gap between the bottom of the bearing housing and the well in the subchasis - Mike said the base plate was 6mm so presumably that's what the gap is but I have some dental impression silicone that I can use to make a cast of the space and then measure it. If it is 6mm I'm laughing as I have some solid brass spike feet exactly 6mm thick and a perfect diameter match for the bearing housing base.
Steve
Mike_New
02-02-2013, 00:04
Stephen,
From the above post I get the impression you are considering making a steel insert to go into the Bearing well. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not how it works.
The Bearing Base Plate is made of 6mm steel and is 120mm diameter (can be larger).
It is bonded to the chassis with High Strenght Araldite.
In a normal installation my bearing goes down to almost the bottom of the bearing well.
Wakefield Turntables
02-02-2013, 09:10
Stephen,
From the above post I get the impression you are considering making a steel insert to go into the Bearing well. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not how it works.
The Bearing Base Plate is made of 6mm steel and is 120mm diameter (can be larger).
It is bonded to the chassis with High Strenght Araldite.
In a normal installation my bearing goes down to almost the bottom of the bearing well.
This is exactly how I have mine done. I have heard of several members also bolting the base plate down. I think this is overkill and may cause two problems. Firstly the drill holes decrease the integrity of he chassis and may cause micro fractures which could effect how the plinth works. Secondly it's more metal around the pcb. I have tried to strip out as much metal and components away from the innards of the 1210 for fear of them working as a device to pick up Emi and rfi interference, perhaps a little extreme but I have a great sounding deck
:mental:
I also have a 0.5mm piece of sorbothane sitting in the bearing well, hopefully to minimise vibration in the well and also into the bearing. I have also seen 1210 with sorbothane or variants of it being stuck to the external underside of the bearing well. Hope this comments are useful. :cool:
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