Goldring G800 Cart with Northwest Analogue stylus re-tip [Archive]

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The Black Adder

30-12-2012, 10:56

Wow... :eek:

Bought this cart from Marco just before crimbo and I have to say it rocks.

Setting the SME 3009 with the cart is a big faff but once this little beauty is set up properly it really sings. The output is a little lower than the Shure V15 III / JICO SAS but I can live with that.

Many thanks goes to Marco for this.

Dominic Harper

30-12-2012, 11:31

Hi Joe.
That G800 was fitted with a handmade Nickel cantilever, no exotic tip, just the standard conical.

Greg2010

30-12-2012, 11:50

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab152/greg2010_1/006-2-1.jpg
Hi Joe,
I'm glad someone else has discovered and is enjoying this cart.
Dom made me one with a boron cantilever and micro ridge tip, (shown above on the technics) to see if more could be had from this very available cart........ it's surprisingly good.

Regards
Greg

Marco

30-12-2012, 11:51

That G800 was fitted with a handmade Nickel cantilever, no exotic tip, just the standard conical.

Ah, I didn't realise that it wasn't the tip that was upgraded, but the cantilever. I knew that Dom had done something to the G800, but wasn't 100% sure what. However, what was most obvious was that it sounded massively better after it had been 'doctored'! :eek:

Seems that sometimes upgrading the cantilever can make more of a difference (or as much of a difference) as the tip!

Glad you're enjoying it, Joe. Now that you've got the G800 'dialled in' properly, it should work really well in your system :cool:

Marco.

The Black Adder

30-12-2012, 12:28

well all I can say is that the hand made nickle cantilever has to be nothing but a very fine bit of work as it sounds superb! I'm tempted to even try something more exotic in it to be honest. For a cart that is cheap as chips this is a REAL eye opener.

I can only say that if you haven't already then grab one of these carts, forget about how it used to sound and get a re-tip as the cart itself must have very high quality internals.

A real music lovers cart.

The Black Adder

30-12-2012, 12:37

The Black Adder

30-12-2012, 12:39

Hi Joe.
That G800 was fitted with a handmade Nickel cantilever, no exotic tip, just the standard conical.

Hi Dom. Thanks matey. If you could PM me and let me know how much it would be the same as Gregs that would be great.

Marco

30-12-2012, 13:25

Good plan, dude! Oh, we need some pics of the beastie in situ on your TD-124!

As..... :worthless:

;)

Marco.

Rare Bird

30-12-2012, 14:19

May as well source another G800 Joe, they go cheap enough..

DSJR

30-12-2012, 15:56

Shall I stir the poo and say that the ONLY G800's to have are the ones with loads of writing on the top and not just "Made In England or somesuch.............:concertina:

Actually and in absolute truth, the best G800 bodies went for the G800 Super E models, and some of the external covers on these were white in colour to mark them out as "selected."

The Black Adder

30-12-2012, 17:26

Rare Bird

30-12-2012, 17:37

That's correct Dave. My one was brushed copper top with Pat Numbers etc..

Greg2010

30-12-2012, 17:57

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab152/greg2010_1/012-2.jpg

http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab152/greg2010_1/3.jpg

Two differing versions I have, neither of which has any apparent sonic edge over t'other. :ner:

Marco

30-12-2012, 18:01

Indeed, Greg... I think that some folk here are suffering from AOIS: 'Audiophile Overactive Imagination Syndrome'!! ;)

Marco.

The Black Adder

30-12-2012, 18:22

lol...

Rare Bird

30-12-2012, 19:20

I think that some folk here are suffering from AOIS: 'Audiophile Overactive Imagination Syndrome'!! ;)

Cough

The Black Adder

30-12-2012, 20:08

will get some snaps later, Marco...

ROCK!

Marco

30-12-2012, 20:12

Excellent! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR

30-12-2012, 21:16

I was joking FFS, but not the bit about the 800 Super E :lol:

The Black Adder

30-12-2012, 22:30

I was joking FFS, but not the bit about the 800 Super E :lol:

:eek: lol.. I did wonder, Dave...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_K60Z1eMb6jQ/SqQdkClEHBI/AAAAAAAABFE/hD7-RkmgBTA/ted%20dougal%20dreams%20reality.jpg

:D

The Black Adder

31-12-2012, 09:18

Well.. in the new year and if any sceptics are near these parts they are very welcome to come and have a listen...

Marco

31-12-2012, 09:19

Right... Now go and do those pics! ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

31-12-2012, 09:30

.......any skeptics.....are very welcome to come and have a listen...

What about the sceptics? Are they invited too?

Marco

31-12-2012, 09:36

Nah, they're coming on a different bus......

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

31-12-2012, 09:46

Probably, but it'll be one of these:

http://blogs.reuters.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/routemaster_s.jpg

...rather than one of these:

http://www.mymaineproperty.com/images/schoolBus.jpg

The Black Adder

31-12-2012, 11:38

pics will be done today... :)

Marco

31-12-2012, 12:55

Probably, but it'll be one of these:

http://blogs.reuters.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/routemaster_s.jpg

...rather than one of these:

http://www.mymaineproperty.com/images/schoolBus.jpg

Nah, dude, it's dis one (as the 'special needs' bus was full):

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8742/magicbus.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/magicbus.jpg/)

:peace:

Marco.

The Black Adder

01-01-2013, 17:18

Marco

01-01-2013, 19:01

Great pics, Joe! Hope you're still enjoying it :)

Btw, what tracking force are you using?

Marco.

tannoyman

01-01-2013, 19:24

Good plan, dude! Oh, we need some pics of the beastie in situ on your TD-124!

As..... :worthless:

;)

Marco.

Hi Marco

With respect the thread is fine and helpful. It's your response that is worthless and adds no value.

David:(

Beechwoods

01-01-2013, 19:27

Marco's reply was meant in complete good humour, encouraging Joe to share his enthusiasm about his new cart.

'This thread is worthless without pics' is an old internet joke... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=This+thread+is+useless+without+pic s

Good natured humour is clearly lost on some people.

tannoyman

01-01-2013, 19:38

Good natured humour is clearly lost on some people.[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't it be simpler and more effective to simply say 'good thread but would be good if you could let us have some pics? Belittling contributors may be called good humour where you come from but here its called pig ignorance.

David :(

Marco

01-01-2013, 19:47

Eh??? Have you been on the sherry, David? There was no belittling. My earlier smiley remark was clearly taken in the spirit it was intended by Joe.

I suggest that you refrain from posting further until you're in a better frame of mind.

Marco.

Beechwoods

01-01-2013, 19:48

Gobsmacked...

tannoyman

01-01-2013, 20:02

I'll be pleased to do that

The Black Adder

01-01-2013, 20:18

lol... weird! - It's all in jest, David... no probs ere son. :)

Regarding tracking weight, I'm still experimenting. I started at 2.3g and now I'm down to 1.9g and enjoying it. Going to go a little lighter and see where it starts to break up.

It's all good so far. :)

Marco

01-01-2013, 20:24

Nice one, dude. Good plan... I found 2g to be pretty optimal :)

Marco.

The Black Adder

01-01-2013, 20:31

Nice one, dude. Good plan... I found 2g to be pretty optimal :)

Marco.

Yeah, so far I think 1.9g / 2.0g seems to express more transients and the stage is just lovely. I'll try down to 1.7g tomorrow and report back.

I am so very surprised regarding how this cart sounds. It's gutsy and really drives the music in a way I can only imagine Decca carts are supposed to do but then I need to eventually get a Decca to see... lol

But what I'm trying to say is that the timing has momentum and copes with all of my tastes very well indeed. For the price this is a sleeping bunny killer... with TEETH!...

GNASH GNASH! lol :)

Audioman

02-01-2013, 15:09

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/GOLDRING%20G800%20-%20THORENS%20TD124%20MKII/DSC07425.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/GOLDRING%20G800%20-%20THORENS%20TD124%20MKII/DSC07432.jpg
http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq295/musical_submarine/GOLDRING%20G800%20-%20THORENS%20TD124%20MKII/DSC07443.jpg

Looks a lovely 'Strict Machine' Joe. Frankly just don't get the love for revamping a G800. They were almost the bog standard give away cartridge of the day along with the budget end of the Shure M75 range. Usualy came fitted to the GL75. I do think there has been some progress in cartridge design all be it at a heavy financial cost to the consumer.

DSJR

02-01-2013, 15:40

The G800 series came out on 1968 or so when there was a lot of development in these things. Like many cartridges of this period, there's a response suckout centred around 6 - 8kHz although the *effects* of this may well be minimal. Tracking of the stock article at 2.5g or so is ok but not the best, mainly limited by the horrid old nail posing as a diamond (rough finish, not clear as in many modern diamonds and despite claims at the time, the effective tip mass is actually quite high). The suspension, despite being all but glued to the cantilever and housing, still allows fore and aft movement as the ADC's of the time do.

I have a couple of G800E's and although the suspension seems different and the diamond nails look sort-of elliptical shaped, the sound isn't really any better if not worse nowadays, despite a 1.5 - 2g tracking weight. I don't know the Super E at all and these are rare, being regarded at the time as below the Shure V15T2 if not the M75-E at the time IIRC.

The G820 series from 1974 was similar, but with a tie-wire soldered in place. A 'Choice review of the G820 conical model absolutely slaughtered it - dull, bland etc.. On the other hand, there was a rave review of the G820 Super E around the time of launch, but again, these are very rare. I have the "DJ" version of the G820 (a sort of update on the G800H and G850 with a re-shaped red stylus housing) and a better total treble filter you'd be hard pressed to find since there really isn't any treble to speak of at all.

I'm surprised how good a good stock G800 can be and tracking is certainly better with a good modern generic stylus, but the design is old now. I haven't done a fair comparison with the Rega Carbon yet but shall shortly.

Marco

02-01-2013, 16:39

Hi Paul,

Frankly just don't get the love for revamping a G800.

Have you heard a judiciously modified one in a revealing top-notch T/T and system? If not, that'll be why you've written the above! ;) Don't rely on old memories from when they were partnered with very mediocre sounding equipment.

They were almost the bog standard give away cartridge of the day along with the budget end of the Shure M75 range. Usualy came fitted to the GL75.

Blah, blah... Yeah, but so what? You're no longer comparing apples with apples! The fact is, upgrading the styus and/or cantilever on a G800, with the best of what is available now, turns the 'humble' G800, sonically, into a giant-killer.

Goldring obviously got something *very* right when they designed the basic unit, but were hampered by the stylus and cantilever technology of the day. Rectify that, by combining the best of old and new technologies, and trust me, the results are stunning!

I do think there has been some progress in cartridge design all be it at a heavy financial cost to the consumer.

Yes, in some ways that's certainly the case. However, many modern cartridges lack the 'musical tone' and listenability of the best vintage designs (note that here I'm not referring to euphonic coloration, but something intrinsic in allowing music to sound like music, as opposed to a poor caricature of such).

Today's cartridges can sound overly 'hi-fi' and forensically clinical, in comparison, in a way which is just musically wrong...

That fact is borne out in all its glory when listening to the likes of my SPU Royal GM MKII MC cartridge, where the renowned 'musicality' of the SPU (as described above) is married with the superior sonic accuracy of today's best cantilevers and tips, resulting in one of the most impressive and beguiling sounds possible from vinyl reproduction! :trust:

Marco.

DSJR

02-01-2013, 17:15

Things have moved on at Tringsby Towers this afternoon.....

I can't be a*sed to type it all again, but here's a quote from an email I sent this aft to a couple of pals of mine who lurk here...

"I acquired a G800 (ah yes, another one) with the Zero 100. The stylus had been ripped off in transit, but the body looked fine as was the stylus housing. I had another "replacement" stylus on one of the other bodies (the pukka one is in storage with the other SME-shell mounted ones) and, since I used to do this with ADC's years ago, I removed the cantilever/stylus from the rubber mount and transferred it over to the original Goldring housing/suspension. it needed some tweaking (with a pin - cough) to align it up centrally and perpendicularly (who needs a shadow-mask when you have my bad eyes and a magnifying glass?), but once done, it looked fine (superior diamond) and compliance seemed the same as other G800's I have. I set it up in the Dual and played it this aft on the HD25SP's. Two LP's used - Thomas Dolby "The Flat Earth" - an ESSENTIAL record - and also System 7 "777." The System 7 is a double album and a couple of tracks have sweeping high frequencies up to an estimated several kHz. The Goldring coped brilliantly with the banging kick drum and also showed that the bass was comprised of synth notes and possibly an electric bass as well (I hadn't noticed this before). The reverb around some of the "instruments" was as clear as a bell and totally without dirt (I love the little Rega Carbon, but it isn't as clean in the treble..). The sssssibilants on the T Dolby LP were also handled perfectly once I got the bias set properly. I then found I could track cleanly down to 2g without issue with this stylus (the original I have only sounds half decent at 2.75g and not a smidge below).

The thing is, both LP's have good CD issues, and two with the Thomas Dolby one (later mastering has far more bass eq'd in on the album tracks) yet with neither do I feel the need to fish out the CD's. The Goldring really does let it all hang out (stonking on singles!) in a similar crude? way to the GE's I reckon, but I never once felt the desire to switch off and do summat else."

So where does this leave us? Dom will charge £100 or more for one of his stylus assembly rebuilds, yet I wonder if much of this can be achieved by one of the better pattern styli out there (I'm thinking Jico here). I still have to try one of the 800E styli (unworn tips but horrid looking like the 800 conical original) and I've seen pattern replacements on ebay for under twenty notes although I have no idea if they're any good.

There's certainly something about these old heavyweights - the ADC 26 and no doubt its lower compliance siblings, the M3D/N21, the G800 and no doubt others like the Empire 880? do have a "slam" in the bass that maybe a tad too much, but the quality of this mimics the masters I've heard quite well. The ultra-smooth and sexy Koetsu Red's and upwards of old are so far away from the truth it's unreal since the original tapes often sound raw and rough on older recordings and NEVER sweet and sickly unless they've been butchered this way for mastering (Barbra Streisand's Guilty is one that comes to mind)..

Just my musings...

The Black Adder

03-01-2013, 16:17

Hi Dave. What I'm finding is that the bass on this cart is prominant in the sub frequency too of which seems to allow hidden textures to come out, I too have found that I'm hearing things that I didn't know was there, mostly make up instruments which gives an interesting insight in how the recording was made/mixed.

The Black Adder

03-01-2013, 16:22

Looks a lovely 'Strict Machine' Joe. Frankly just don't get the love for revamping a G800. They were almost the bog standard give away cartridge of the day along with the budget end of the Shure M75 range. Usualy came fitted to the GL75. I do think there has been some progress in cartridge design all be it at a heavy financial cost to the consumer.

Sure, but as Marco said, they got it bang on.. they just need a more modern stylus to make them shine.

Yep, love me Goldfrapp!... New album out in March btw. I must admit I can't fault any of their albums so far.

Marco

03-01-2013, 17:08

Goldfrapp rule! Hey, Paul, why the lack of response? :scratch:

Marco.

DSJR

03-01-2013, 18:53

I compared my re-bodged G800 tip to a good original 800E late last night and I can assure you the 800E was horrible, easily beaten by the Rega Carbon.

The 800E was dull, smoother up top as to be expected, but thick, clogged, thumpy and bland with it, just as I remember the G800 I had forty years ago being when compared with a new M75-ED. I'm really wondering what a modern elliptical take would sound like in comparison.....

Marco

03-01-2013, 19:22

The 800E was dull, smoother up top as to be expected, but thick, clogged, thumpy and bland with it, just as I remember the G800 I had forty years ago being when compared with a new M75-ED. I'm really wondering what a modern elliptical take would sound like in comparison.....

Well, my old G800 (now Joe's), with an upgraded cantilver, but still the original conical stylus, sounds nothing like you've described above, so one can only imagine that a re-tip, with a 'posher' stylus would be even better! ;)

Marco.

DSJR

03-01-2013, 20:55

My rebodged G800 doesn't sound like the E either and there's no lack of hf either :)

Marco

04-01-2013, 08:34

Sounds like your E is fooked.....

Marco.

Dominic Harper

04-01-2013, 08:54

synsei

04-01-2013, 08:58

I thought conical tips were more forgiving when tracing the inner grooves due to their symmetrical profile Dom, am I mistaken in this assumption?

hal55

04-01-2013, 09:08

If anyone has an idea what a good Jico or similar replacement would be I'd like to give one of these a go. Putting a authentic 70s era cartridge on my SP10/Decca would just about complete the "70s superdeck" rebuild.

Hal55

Dominic Harper

04-01-2013, 09:14

A tip has a harder job to do reading the modulations on inner grooves, more so with a pivoted arm than a linear arm. I conical tip by its very design will not transcribe the information as well as a line contact or elliptical tip.
Conical tips can be very entertaining and should not be dismissed out of hand.

I see where your coming from Dave. Because a conical tip does not reach into the groove as a line contact would, there would be less chance of the information becoming corrupted by poor set up etc.
By the same token, what info a conical was reproducing would also be corrupted.
Poor set up is poor set up no matter what tip, cartridge and arm.

Marco

04-01-2013, 09:21

The aftermarket styli available on ebay are pretty dire. I have tried them all. The supensions are very poor indeed. The only ones that I would dare to use are from Jico, but even some of these are poor. The good ones are not as good as the originals.
When I take on a G800 for modification a lot of work goes into preparing the suspension for the new cantilever etc.
If the suspension is of sufficient quality the next part to be upgraded is the cantilever.
This will give the biggest improvement first off. Next would be the tip.
Conical tips can sound very impressive. Most people only hear a conical in a poor cantilever in an average cartridge , in an average turntable etc. I think it's fair to say. This just leaves people with the impression that conicals are bad and should be avoided.
Better tips will ultimately give better results, but we are talking about inner detail and ultimate tonality and expression here at that level.
Before anyone mentions inner groove distortion using conical tips, I will say if the turntable, arm and set up are good then inner distortion should not be present.

A most informative post, Dom!

I'd particularly agree with the last bit, although would add that, even when a conical (or elliptical) tipped cartridge is imacculately set-up, in comparison with, say, an FG tip, there is definitely (high frequency) distortion present, and tracking ability is also limited, resulting in 'difficult' material, on certain albums, not being reproduced as cleanly, and ultimately, as accurately.

Those are the things I noticed most when I upgraded from the SPU Classic GM E, to my Royal GM MKII :)

Marco.

Dominic Harper

04-01-2013, 09:23

Maybe I should have said it should not be a major issue Marco rather than no dstortion.

Marco

04-01-2013, 09:28

Yup, mate, I'd go with that. It was never a major issue with any of the conical tipped cartridges I'd used for years, before I learned what an FG S tip could do! :eek:

It's my firm belief, and I suspect also yours, that probably 60% of people who own turntables (and thus also cartridges) don't know how to set them up optimally....

If you could carry out a 'mobile T/T set-up clinic', I'm sure that you'd find plenty of 'casualties'!! :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

Dominic Harper

04-01-2013, 09:35

Not wishing to come across as arrogant, my apologies if this does, but yes I totally agree.
Every customer that visits me really has no idea how to get the best from their turntable.
I have been asked by one guy in the south to do mobile turntable set ups. Nice idea and it would be great but the cost would be crazy and I would have no time to do anything else.
Maybe a clinic of sorts during one day where a number of pople could participate may be do able.
People get overly anal about certain aspects of cartridge set up and this makes them paranoid. Trust your ears and dont follow manufacturers specs to the letter!

synsei

04-01-2013, 09:40

if I try to set up my own T/T's I am never happy with the results (I'm quite the perfectionist and my expectations far outweigh my abilities). If I get other people to set them up I leave them the feck alone afterwards. Does anyone else suffer from this? :eyebrows:

Marco

04-01-2013, 09:54

Every customer that visits me really has no idea how to get the best from their turntable.
I have been asked by one guy in the south to do mobile turntable set ups. Nice idea and it would be great but the cost would be crazy and I would have no time to do anything else.
Maybe a clinic of sorts during one day where a number of pople could participate may be do able.

As I suspected! ;)

Perhaps the suggested clinic is something you could carry out for people in one of the 'workshops' at the forthcoming AoS show? :)

Marco.

P.S Agreed that people worrying too much about specs and not trusting their ears enough is one of the primary reasons for poor set-up results, and ultimately, continual dissatisfaction. I'm not that type, but yes, Dave, I know where you're coming from!

wiicrackpot

04-01-2013, 12:46

DSJR

04-01-2013, 13:03

As I understand it, inner grooves have the information more tightly packed together, ESPECIALLY high frequencies. A conical tip will be inclined to be pushed up in the groove, thereby reducing output slightly. This was definitely a measured artifact on the DL103, and many records were cut with a slightly increasing high frequencies towards end of side in an attempt to minimise this I was told by a cutting engineer.

The thing is, and most imortantly to this site, the subjective EFFECTS of this aren't anything like as bad as one would think, unless you have a CD to compare as the record side goes on. I remember doing this many years ago with Sgt Pepper and where the LP and CD's I had sounded all but identical at the beginning of side, but by side-end there was a definite difference, the LP sounding "duller" in comparison. My "Ton-Up" G800 sounds fine, if a bit rough and raw, but somehow it's more enjoyable that way.....

Dominic Harper

04-01-2013, 13:45

Been trolling through this thread and don't know what to think, :scratch:
what we're advocating here is take a cart thats as dull as ditch water and instantly forgettable as spit in the rain,
give it a serious tip at many times it's value and we've got a 'giant killer', the inquisitive part of me want to believe but the sensible said no.

Another thing not touched on is once you give it Dom's treatment, are you hearing a G800 ??, the answer is got to be NO !!,
would i go as far with a G800 ??, definitely NO, there must be some serious carts in stock form up to couple hundred pounds that'll better it surely,
and you're buying a up to date item without the worry of tired or out of spec gubbings. :confused:

Your obviously scanning the posts here. As I said, all that was done to the cart in question was to substitute the stock cantilever for a new solid nickel cantilever. When I say nickel it is in fact a nickel alloy but I am not about to divulge the material exactly.

A cartridge be it mm mi or mc is not just a tip and cantilever. Its generator is of equal importance and this is the whole point of this thread.
Cartridges are made up of many parts. The quality and material choice are part of what distinguishes one cartridge from another and its performance, otherwise why would there be any need for more than one cartridge on the planet?

Marco

04-01-2013, 14:27

A cartridge be it mm mi or mc is not just a tip and cantilever. Its generator is of equal importance and this is the whole point of this thread.
Cartridges are made up of many parts. The quality and material choice are part of what distinguishes one cartridge from another and its performance, otherwise why would there be any need for more than one cartridge on the planet?

Indeed, Dom.

Andy, the point is that the G800, in stock form, has a superb quality generator, and so only held back by its factory supplied cantilever and stylus, which whilst 'ok' by late 1960s standards, are rather inferior to the best of what is available today.

Therefore, combine that superb quality generator (it's my belief, backed up by considerable experience, that there have been less advances in this area recently than in cantilever and stylus technology), with the best cants and tips available today, and you end up with a pretty serious cartridge, yes, better than MUCH of what is produced today for a couple of hundred quid - and more!! :exactly:

There are many high-quality vintage cartridges that would benefit from similar treatment, some of which (such as the M3D) have been mentioned on AoS, but there are plenty of others too, which haven't been mentioned. Furthermore, look what happens when you re-tip a DL-103 and/or fit it into a superior shell...

It should also be noted that no G800 I've owned has sounded bad in the way some have described here. Yes, upgrading the cantilever and stylus results in a massive sonic improvement, but the stock G800s I've used in my system were far from shabby!

However the point is this: 'race-tuning' a quality vintage cartridge, as described, is a very valid route to take, and a virtually surefire way of obtaining the highest SPPV. Don't fall into the trap of believing that anything in audio that's modern must automatically be better than something older - because I can assure you that it isn't!! ;)

Marco.

Audioman

04-01-2013, 15:52

One thing not considered is that even if the G800 has a supeb generator that generator is 40+ years old. I am sure most G800s still surviving will no longer be in optimal condition due to heavy use or storage in the garage or shed for many years. The idea of bunging £100+ at reviving an old nail that originaly sold for a few quid does not appear very wise for me.

Glad Marco has discovered the benefits of modern micro line styli and stopped swearing by the perfection of the olde conical tip.

Paul.

Marco

04-01-2013, 17:00

One thing not considered is that even if the G800 has a supeb generator that generator is 40+ years old. I am sure most G800s still surviving will no longer be in optimal condition due to heavy use or storage in the garage or shed for many years.

Well, that applies to ANY vintage equipment one buys, doesn't it, Paul? I guess you have to either rely on what the seller says the history is or take a punt on it. Fortunately, unlike with vintage CDPs, direct-drive T/Ts, etc, taking a punt on a G800 will only cost you about £40! ;)

Also, I've had about four of them and, generator-wise, they've all been fine - and I'd expect them to remain so for a long time to come.

The idea of bunging £100+ at reviving an old nail that originaly sold for a few quid does not appear very wise for me.

Maybe not to you, but your derogatory language clearly shows a bias (most likely based on age-old memories) against what is to all intents and purposes an excellent cartridge, not to mention your ignorance at what is possible when said cartridge is judiciously modified. What happens if that £100 spent means that the G800 outperforms cartridges today costing three times that amount and more??

Having done the test, I can confirm that this is actually the case. Jeez, there were people at Dom's last bake-off who preferred the tweaked G800 to a re-tipped Linn Troika and an AT-33PTG (all used on the same T/T and in the same system) - honestly, I'm not kidding!!

If you attend the AoS show in November, I'll look forward to letting you hear a modified G800 on my T/T and you eating your words, BIG TIME! :ner:

Glad Marco has discovered the benefits of modern micro line styli and stopped swearing by the perfection of the olde conical tip.

Indeed I have. However, I still stand by all that I've written to date about quality vintage cartridges with spherical tips, which as Dom says, can sound stunning in the right set up. Testament to this fact is that, in some ways, my old SPU Classic GM was better than the elliptical-tipped version that replaced it......

Reproducing believable sounding music from a turntable or hi-fi system isn't just about adhering to the technical facts and figures and what is claimed as being 'accurate'. You really should open your mind more to what the possibilites are (and the rewards) in audio of combining the best of old and new technologies.

Marco.

wiicrackpot

04-01-2013, 17:53

Your obviously scanning the posts here. As I said, all that was done to the cart in question was to substitute the stock cantilever for a new solid nickel cantilever. When I say nickel it is in fact a nickel alloy but I am not about to divulge the material exactly.

A cartridge be it mm mi or mc is not just a tip and cantilever. Its generator is of equal importance and this is the whole point of this thread.
Cartridges are made up of many parts. The quality and material choice are part of what distinguishes one cartridge from another and its performance, otherwise why would there be any need for more than one cartridge on the planet?
I bow to your greater knowledge Dom, i've always applauded the wqrk you and J7 do for vinyl lovers, but as i've highlighted above, it just doesn't look a quality product.

Also, I've had about four of them and, generator-wise, they've all been fine - and I'd expect them to remain so for a long time to come.

Having done the test, I can confirm that this is actually the case. Jeez, there were people at Dom's last bake-off who preferred the tweaked G800 to a re-tipped Linn Troika and an AT-33PTG (all used on the same T/T and in the same system) - honestly, I'm not kidding!!
If you attend the AoS show in November, I'll look forward to letting you hear a modified G800 on my T/T and you eating your words, BIGTIME! :ner:

Marco.
Marco, those were the cartridges that i was implying for circa couple hundred pounds 2nd hand of course, add to that i had 103r, 10x5, Dorian, OM Black, various Nagoaka's etc..you know where i'm coming from.

Must try to make the AOS show and hoping to be proving wrong, have you set a location and date yet?.

p.s. must go, using works P.C. at tea break. :o

The Black Adder

04-01-2013, 17:55

A good Stage, richness, pitch, range, bass, slam = Very happy - Bosh!

DSJR

04-01-2013, 18:43

A quick P.S. BOTH my G800's, original and bodged, have the supplied original (black) suspensions. The G800E sonics are as much to the rock fitted as anything else, and diamond shaping and polish are things much improved or at least more consitent these days IMO.

Marco

04-01-2013, 22:24

Hi Andy,

Marco, those were the cartridges that i was implying for circa couple hundred pounds 2nd hand of course, add to that i had 103r, 10x5, Dorian, OM Black, various Nagoaka's etc..you know where i'm coming from.

Yes, but the second-hand prices don't reduce the sonic abilities of the cartridges concerned. A £400 or £500 cartridge is still a £400 or £500 cartridge, in terms of its achievable performance, regardless of the fact that you may only pay half of that for it second-hand...

Also, look at the quality of the cartridges this supposed shitey "old nail", sold for buttons in its day, is being compared with - and when suitably modified, rightly so!! ;)

Must try to make the AOS show and hoping to be proving wrong, have you set a location and date yet?.

November this year. Location will be finalised in the next month. Likely to be Derby :)

Marco.

Rare Bird

04-01-2013, 22:28

Derby is easy thankz

wiicrackpot

04-01-2013, 22:52

November this year. Location will be finalised in the next month. Likely to be Derby :)

Marco.
Marco,

The reason i set the comparable level of upto £500.00 is i've factored in the going rate of £40.00 and rising for a G800,
then Dom's handy work for say £100.00 - £150.00 and the fact it's been elevated to giant killing credentials, am i in the zone with my calculation?.

Ooo.... might be doable for my 1st ever bake off/show, ;) will seek you out and say in the best ''Christine'' horror movie voice....Show Me !!. :D

The Black Adder

10-01-2013, 15:02

Derby is easy thankz

+1

Or Lichfield/ish? - I know of a stately home that may fit the bill, I know the owners so if that's of any use let me know.