Phono Pre- Recommendations £200-£300 - What say you? [Archive]

Beechwoods

29-12-2012, 18:49

I'm thinking about getting myself a dedicated Phono Preamp. I have a Pickering XV15 625E cartridge, so my immediate requirement is a stage with MM capability.

I have a Quad 303 Poweramp. The 33 Pre is currently ill and this in part is prompting me to look for a step up offboard phono stage.

I'm drawn to the Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 Special Edition, but I'm keen to unravel the online hyperbole :) I'm keen to hear what else is out there, especially in the 'used' market at the price bracket I'm interested in.

Thanks everyone :)

rubber duck

29-12-2012, 19:26

Croft Micro 25 Basic? Rare used but only £400 new.

DSJR

29-12-2012, 19:45

Gird your loins, clench your buttocks and take a look here -

http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?pid=116693#p116693

The £350 iPhono is apparently derived from Abbingdon Research, of which I know little, but the poster Bull.ed is a trusted friend with experienced "pro" ears (in the best sense!) and has a huge and growing collection of 1950's pre RIAA vinyl, needing some sort of adjustment to play these records properly.

http://www.analogueseduction.net/category-702/IFIIPHONO.html

By the way, at this time hifi Dave DOESN'T sell it - ok Mr Dunn?????????

I've had extensive chats with various people about mainly solid state phono stages. I mean, you can buy loads under a ton on Amazon (post humourously made by Ashley James, who HATES vinyl with a passion) -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_5?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=riaa+preamp&sprefix=RIAA+%2Caps%2C235

...so what makes a several hundred quid stage so much better?

The Slee I'm not sure about, as one HDD member who posts here sometimes, had a Slee Revelation (post 46 on the HDD thread) and found it just like the cheapies according to his post - he now uses a passive speaker system with a wall mounted Rega RP6/Exact and Brio R. I'd like to find out more on the Edwards Audio models (upgradable with better power supply later on), but this iPhono appeals because of the neat looks, and the fact that loading is pretty well catered for in 80 - 90% of cases and it should offer a proper decent FET low-noise front end for MC types.

If you have the 303 as standard in terms of gain, then a passive control should be fine with a phono stage feeding it and if the 33 is standard, then be prepared for a huge upgrade in sonics :) (and I DO love the 33 in its own way). The Micro Basic is a bit raw sounding, but a VERY good little preamp indeed and you won't lose a fortune should you choose to sell on later. The 303 could then have its gain usefully reduced to use more of the Croft volume control function (a 303 issue doe to the period in which it was designed, NOT a Croft one!!!!!)

I do remember the original Rega Fono from ten years ago and it was fine, if basic looking. I don't know the new one apart from the baby Mini/USB models and they're great for peanuts.

One more I MUST shout out - and hifi dave DOES sell this one, is the Croft. Simple and loads of air in the case of the standard one, but it's a goodie, quiet for fixed coil carts and accurate RIAA with loads of headroom for Decca's :lol: No MC option though..

Wakefield Turntables

29-12-2012, 20:07

Creek phonostages work extremely well with Quad gear. I had this one
http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl041999.htm it worked very very well but you'll probably be able to get something better for the money you have, maybe a Trichord Dino, this is also a tried and tested bit of kit with Quad and again works very well.

Beechwoods

29-12-2012, 20:18

Wow guys! Thank you for all these ideas. It is really appreciated. Please keep them coming - I'll be investigating them all :)

Clive

29-12-2012, 20:56

For £350 you can buy this http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iPhono.html

I have one on loan, it is excellent and very flexible. It betters my more expensive Ray Samuels F-117 Nighthawk.

John

29-12-2012, 21:17

yes brilliant phono stage

Clive

29-12-2012, 22:06

Btw, the iPhono is from the same designer as the AMR phono stage but the main similarities are flexibility and how the switching ps is made to sound good - a linear ps is said not to be needed and will not be a future upgrade, so says the designer. The circuit is not derived from AMR though it's easy to make that assumption as this is the case with the DAC.

John

29-12-2012, 22:13

Also if you decide on good cartridge for very little money try this No idea how it will work with your arm but with my arm sounds very good

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUNTINA-ACUTEX-415-STR-PER-GIRADISCHI-INTROVABILE-STYLUS-FOR-TURNTABLE-NUOVA-/251194238250?pt=Piatti_e_Lettori_CD&hash=item3a7c57e52a

Clive

29-12-2012, 22:36

I even have a 415 spare, if anyone is interested. Also a 420.

AlfaGTV

29-12-2012, 23:26

Interesting John, i actually bought the M320 STR from the italian seller at first and was VERY pleased with that one! So i have purchased one 415 also! Looking forward to setting it up on my SME Series III on the Techy SL-150... :)

Regards //Mike

John

30-12-2012, 05:51

just rocks really well and considering 90% of my vinyl is rock based that suits me fine
Perhaps people might miss some of the treble detail of other Carts but the 320str if you can find it is better balanced this way and heard this up against some very expensive carts in a friends system and think for value and performance you could not get better

AlfaGTV

30-12-2012, 09:50

Thanks John! I must amend my mistake though, the one i bought previously was an Acutex M312 STR, not a 320... :(
Really must try out the 415 now then!
Regards //Mike

John

30-12-2012, 10:13

Its worth a punt at that price I love it but perhaps not for everyone

Audioman

30-12-2012, 10:50

There is a new review of the Ifi Iphono by Michael Fremer on Analogue Planet.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/whats-8500-cartridge-doing-place-399-ifi-iphono-phono-preamplifier

morris_minor

30-12-2012, 12:22

I'm drawn to the Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 Special Edition, but I'm keen to unravel the online hyperbole :)
You can borrow one for an extended home demo, Nick, from the GSP forum to see (hear) for yourself . . :eyebrows:

DSJR

30-12-2012, 12:26

There is a new review of the Ifi Iphono by Michael Fremer on Analogue Planet.

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/whats-8500-cartridge-doing-place-399-ifi-iphono-phono-preamplifier

No "bloom" in the midrange - what's he on about????? :mental:

Marco

30-12-2012, 12:46

Some good reccos so far, however for me, there's one utterly stand-out candidate, and that's the Croft Micro 25 Basic, which is just stupidly underpriced for the performance on offer.

Nick, if you can stretch to £400, the Croft is undoubtedly the one to have, quite simply because it's not only got an amazing hard-wired valve phono stage built into it, which, sonically, would rival most other phono stages at up to a grand (I kid you not!!), but it's also a superb standalone preamp in its own right.... You simply cannot go wrong with it.

Now that your 33 has gone tits up, matey, perhaps this is the time to dip your toe into the wonderful world of valves? I'm pretty certain that the Croft would match well with your 303. However, I'm sure that either of the 'two Dave's' here could advise on that matter :)

Honestly, mate, with respect to the other recommendations given here, none of them get close to giving you as big a bang for your buck, as the Croft... One listen to it (once you've picked yourself up from the floor, from sheer astonishment...), and you will *know* exactly what I mean! :trust:

Marco.

Tarzan

30-12-2012, 12:58

Marco

30-12-2012, 13:05

oh and you get a free pre-amp thrown in for good measure...

Exactly - and not only is it 'free'; it's bloody brilliant, too! :exactly:

Marco.

Rare Bird

30-12-2012, 13:10

I'm also looking to be buying an outboard MM phonostage in the middle of the year, i don't do stages with IC's onboard, so will have to be a toobe stage, the Croft is the top of my list upto yet.

DSJR

30-12-2012, 16:06

Nowt wrong with MODERN IC's properly supplied with decent low rf noise power supplies, but I know where you're coming from :)

awkwardbydesign

30-12-2012, 18:19

I use a (heavily modified) Yaqin MS-12B. About £200. Or try the MS-22B, about £125, basically a stripped down MS-12B. If you want to modify, they are ideal. I have taken mine to a bake-off or two, and it didn't disgrace itself against more expensive phono stages.

ppat2

30-12-2012, 21:53

My two phono amps used in my second system, were the Graham Slee SE, and a Lehmann Audio Black Cube Statement.

I sold the GS-SE only because it was not a good match for my then Linn Basik TT. The amp and the TT both being on the warm/rich side were not a good match.

For what it's worth, the GS-SE is a good match for a thin or bright sounding system. It will add a lot of richness to that type of setup and will give rock music a good kick. The highs on the GS-SE are smooth, but a little rounded off, and the bass deep.

The LA-BC-Statement is a good match for any warmish sounding system, as it has good detail retrieval and good attack. It will be a little hard sounding if your system already leans that way.

Rare Bird

30-12-2012, 23:07

Be nice to hear about some Tube Phonostage Kits (Must be Hardwired circuits nay PCB's) :eyebrows:

What you say Nick?? :)

daytona600

31-12-2012, 01:35

another vote for the graham slee & the small croft , excellent value

or another one to mention blue circle fon lo thingee
standard version or with upgraded power supply & capacitor pack

can let you borrow all three to try if required

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bluecircle4/flt.html
http://scottnangle.co.uk/blue_circle_17.html

Floyddroid

31-12-2012, 06:41

The graham Slee stages are absolutely cracking. It really does depend on what you want to spend. I use a EE minimax valve phono stage in my main system. However, i recently bought a Project Phonobox to use in my second system just to get my Technics SL100 working via headphones and i was shocked at just how good it is. Give Simon Griffin a ring at Turntableworld/Hifi sound, he's the man! 01642 267012.

Marco

31-12-2012, 09:03

Yup, Steve, Simon's a top bloke and knows his stuff, no question. I've bought all my Ortofon T/T gear from him. He's got a nice record collection in his demo room too, eh? :eek:

I also like Graham Slee kit, but it tends to come into its own more (I guess as one would expect) with the stuff further up the range. The entry-level kit is nothing more than 'decent', IMO.

Unlike the Croft, it's no 'giant killer' - and that's the point here, trying to give Nick the most performance for his money, and in that respect, if he can stretch to £400, the Croft is unrivalled at this end of the market and could well provide him, as he's not a box-swapper, with the last preamp/phono stage that he'll ever need!

Marco.

John

31-12-2012, 09:09

Be interesting to hear the IFI against the Croft I really admire Glen work he is one of the good guys

dowser

31-12-2012, 14:44

If you haven't got £400 for a new Micro, pick up an older 2nd hand one and send to Glenn to have it serviced & output stage brought up to latest. I bought a mid-80s Micro II a few years back and did this - came in under £200 even with postage to Ireland.

Can't see me ever selling it, although looks are very agricultural :)

Richard

Marco

31-12-2012, 18:27

Good idea, Richard. I think the love that Croft owners have for their kit speaks volumes :)

Marco.

Beechwoods

31-12-2012, 20:04

Well it looks like I have a real conundrum on my hands! Continue using the Caiman as a primary pre (with analogue sources going through my Tascam HD-P2 when required), with an iPhono switched in as necessary, or go for a Croft, for proper pre-amp possibilities.

Funds-wise, £400 is pushing it, I may just have to save up a bit longer. As it stands, it was going to take a few months to save the pennies anyway. It's a shame that Croft's own website is a bit lukewarm about the Micro Basic... it seems that this is one occasion when a home demo would be sensible. As Marco says, I'm not a box-swapper, so whatever I get I need it to be a long-term purchase. I can't afford to be disappointed :)

chelsea

31-12-2012, 20:14

Don't know how much the wad ones cost 2nd hand but they are extremely capable.

Stratmangler

31-12-2012, 20:22

I've been running a Gram Amp 2SE (the original one that fell out of the ugly tree and hit its face on every branch on the way down) for what seems like forever, and it has always delivered the goods.
You do, however, need to have a decent linear PSU to get the best from it - the Slee PSU1 is more than up to the task, but that shoves the price of the combo up past the £ 350.00 mark.

In light of that the Croft looks to be quite attractive :eyebrows:

Floyddroid

31-12-2012, 20:24

I would tend to agree Marco

Marco

01-01-2013, 01:40

Funds-wise, £400 is pushing it, I may just have to save up a bit longer.

Pop hifi dave a PM, mate. I'm sure he'd do you a good deal, with a little AoS discount! ;) He (or Glenn) would also likely have one you could listen to first... I feel very confident that you'd be blown away by the Croft - honestly!

Marco.

DSJR

01-01-2013, 12:09

The Croft Micro Basic probably doesn't make Glenn much beer money at all, and yet is probably as labour intensive as the Micro 25. Regard it as a favour to cash-strapped music lovers :)

There are some very good ss preamps with fine if simple phono stages out there for not much. I'm thinking of the old MF X Series XP-100, AVI S2000MP+P (takes 3/4 hour for the phono stage to come on song - I don't know why but several samples I've owned are all the same) and original Cyrus Pre (balanced outputs and discrete components). All good, easy to use in a wide variety of systems and they hold their value well...

The Grand Wazoo

01-01-2013, 12:23

Here's a thought Nick - why not take Martin (Macca's) Linn pre (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22820) from him for the 90 quid he's asking and use that as a stopgap while you save the lolly for something a little over your stated budget?
I'm sure you'd get what you pay for it when the time comes to move it on.
Just a thought.

rubber duck

01-01-2013, 20:41

I was wondering when the usual Croft recommendations would come :). I bought mine largely on the recommendations here and even then was still not prepared for what I heard. My other phono stage btw is an ARC SP10 II, which should provide some indication how good I think the basic Croft is.

Audioman

02-01-2013, 13:04

Haselsh1

02-01-2013, 14:00

I'd honestly have to recommend the Graham Slee every time, especially the SE phono stage. Their products are fine quality items that really do fit the bill.

Haselsh1

02-01-2013, 14:01

In fact I intend to buy a Graham Slee Era Gold V later this year to use with my Ortofon OM-30 Super.

Clive

02-01-2013, 14:36

While we are disscusiing Croft pre/phono's how much better is the 25R phono section to the 'cheapie' version? In terms of alternatives what stages give equivalent SQ irrespective of cost?

The Fremer review of the Iphono did not claim it equaled his expensive comparisons (not stated which) and was lacking in mid range as against a tube stage at least. Can anyone put this into perspective in terms of their own experience with high end phono stages.

As far as a stage around £200 I think the original Rega Fono (MC) is very hard to beat. Competitive with stages at double the price I would think.
Hi Paul,

I'll try to add my perspective on the iPhono.

I have a Ray Samuels Nighthawk (NH) which is a battery powered solidstage phonostage which costs $795. The NH is said to give very little aware for the $4,500 XR-10B which benefits from more flexibility in loading, impedance settings, 3 inputs, main power supply. The NH costs this stuff out and consequently costs a lot less. The NH greats, it's clearly a solidstate stage, if I criticise it for anything I'd say its treble is just a trace uncultured. Also it seems better on it's low gain settings, less so on the higher gain MC settings. I place the iPhono as a little superior to the NH, primarily in the treble.

I also have a Vinyl Song LCR phono stage, this costs around $1,500 plus shipping, duty etc so it's more like $2,000. This is a valve-based phonostage with the RIAA eq performed via LCR modules in a can. This phono stage is more clearly valve in that it possesses greater depth and fluidity than the iPhono. The images with the Vinyl Song are more 3D and a little more "solid" or wholesome.

I find I prefer the Vinyl Song with my very open sounding London Reference, with the iFi iPhono the sound can be a little too assertive but if it's all I have I'd be happy.

With my Garrott P77i/NWA I prefer the iPhono as it comes across as more open and lively.

The greatest challenge is not to find the best phono stage, but to find the best one that suits your system and tastes. In some ways my Vinyl Song is a better phono stage than the iPhono but depending on the deck and cartridge in play the iPhono can be preferable.

oscarsaudio

04-01-2013, 18:52

there's a Croft Micro for sale on the Wam .

Rare Bird

04-01-2013, 18:59

I think Nick has the same plan as me in the fact he wants an outboard Phonostage to use with his vintage pre amplifier as i am wanting to, you can hide away the Phonostage so you don't have to see it :) So i recon a pre amp with Phonostage is not what Nicks after.. I think im right.. Nick also has the added advantage as i do of configurating the mains lead for the Phonostage to be switched on/off via the amplifier which is even better..

Marco

04-01-2013, 19:45

Maybe, dude. Only Nick will know for sure.

However, knowing Nick, as I do, he'll also want a 'fit & forget' solution that gives him maximum SPPV - and *that* is where the Croft plays its trump card, as not only does it have a superb phono stage built-in, but as an overall preamp, it'll outperform his old Quad...

Win-win (if he can find the extra dosh necessary)! ;)

Marco.

Rare Bird

04-01-2013, 19:59

But i think Nick likes the Quad for the tape recording section.. & of course it's mostly to do with those vintage aesthetics methinks, something that seems to be lost these days.

I've looked high & low, i seen no option other than the Croft phonostage for my needs, this is beacuse i like hard wiring, toobes in Phono Stages, Nick maybe be not as fussy as i in these respects.

Beechwoods

04-01-2013, 20:36

Nick maybe be not as fussy as i in these respects.

:lol: :hifive:

I must admit that I'm tending towards the Croft for the very reasons you state, point to point wiring, hand made and some extremely positive reviews. I can manage without a tape loop, as I primarily use my decks for playback, I can wire up to record manually when I need to and have my DBX200 route selector to make things easier with multiple tape machines.

I will miss the aesthetics of the 33. They're unbeaten in my opinion. But I think I have to put fidelity first. And the fact that I could do with a line-level pre as well as a Phono pre makes the Croft very attractive.

I don't expect to have funds til the end of Feb though, so I can wait and think it through. I'd rather buy new, with warranty, than secondhand, especially as the Croft doesn't present a particularly spectacular discount when used (it holds its value well :))

Rare Bird

04-01-2013, 20:41

O right i was totally wrong then :lol: I see no other way i could impr'oo've on sound of my vintage amp other than the Phonostage..

DSJR

05-01-2013, 00:04

The 33 looks fab to me still and done up, it's not bad at all. It's just that the solid state components weren't there back in the mid 60's when I believe it was conceived. Things have moved on hugely in terms of solid state designs in all fairness and a listen to a LATE 44, 66, 77 and probably the 99 preamp will confirm this, the stock 33 sounding a bit squitty in comparison and not having the balls in output drive (1.5V max compared to the several volts minimum of current products, including all of Glenn's).

Just make sure that any phono stage choice is for one with a gracious overload margin. I was horrified reading a comparison of such items from a very few years ago, the overload margins leaving nothing for peaky hf regions, or the ticks and splats inevitable with vinyl replay, these transients peaking at many times the mean level and able to set some phono stages into ringing, making the issue worse. Amazing how much quieter surface noise is if the preamp has good overload margins...

Rare Bird

05-01-2013, 00:17

Dave:
Me owd sausage you can preech the Things move on ballerxz, yes of course they have technically but where i sit they aint in SQ terms to my tabz.. I'm ok where i'm at fank qoo

Beechwoods

05-01-2013, 09:03

I hate having to wait til I've saved up enough for a new piece of gear... but credit card debt is for suckers... good things come to those who wait I keep telling myself :)

Marco

05-01-2013, 10:19

Nice one, Nick. The Croft is the one. You won't regret it. Do talk to hifi dave, however, as I'm sure he'll give you a very good deal! :)

One thing to check, though, is the input sensitivity of your 303 against the output of the Croft, to ensure that the gain structure is optimised. This is important, particularly on line-level use, in order to ensure that you have a good scope of control over the volume knob.

Get it wrong and you could find that it only takes a slight nudge of the volume knob to blow your windows in, or you have to crank it way up before reasonable levels are reached. However, I suspect it would more likely be the former.

Glenn would be able to advise you regarding the Croft, and I'm sure the many Quad users here could advise you regarding the input sensitivity of the 303. I just want to ensure that you end up with a 'happy marriage', electrically, as you will with one, sonically! :cool:

Marco.

hifi_dave

05-01-2013, 10:34

I have supplied several Croft pres just recently, attenuated for use with Quad power-amps, new and vintage. They work very well.

Marco

05-01-2013, 10:37

Macca

05-01-2013, 10:48

But i think Nick likes the Quad for the tape recording section.. & of course it's mostly to do with those vintage aesthetics methinks, something that seems to be lost these days.

.

The croft has no styling so aesthetics are not an issue - looks wise it could be from any era from 1955 onwards. Attenuating would be a good idea, especially the line stage which as stock gives very little room for maneuvere on 'loud' CDs.

Beechwoods

05-01-2013, 11:06

I have supplied several Croft pres just recently, attenuated for use with Quad power-amps, new and vintage. They work very well.

Hi Dave, does that work via an internal mod? I definitely want to make sure if I go for a Croft that it's optimally matched to the 303. My 303 is basically stock (it was serviced by Quad c. 1997 but as far as I can tell they've not done anything 'special' :))

Rare Bird

05-01-2013, 20:23

The croft has no styling so aesthetics are not an issue - looks wise it could be from any era from 1955 onwards. Attenuating would be a good idea, especially the line stage which as stock gives very little room for maneuvere on 'loud' CDs.

Aesthetics are not an issue! how you come to that asumption it looks nothing like a 50's design :scratch: ? You telling me a plain box pre amp wouldnt look out of place within a vintage system?? of course it would where as if it was a phonostage only it can be hidden away so wouldnt matter, switched on/off via the Quad 33/Ferrograph 'F307' mains switching, just forget it even exists.. However Nick has a different need to mine..

DSJR

05-01-2013, 21:02

Ah, so the Croft has to be attenuated - I thought that might be the case. No worries, at least we know that the issue is resolvable and not a problem. Good to know that the combination also works well together, sonically :)

Marco.

Seriously chaps, I'd rather leave the Croft well alone and update the sensitivity of the 303 - ONLY two resistors, from 22k to either 68k (modern convention) or 100k to reduce it a tad further. It even improves the sonics slightly as more signal's passing through the interconnects (never a bad thing IMO) and noise on the 303 input is reduced. Did this on mine and it's a doddle to do and sounded great with my old Croft preamp :)

Just to repeat - the QUAD is the old fashioned bit and needed high sensitivity for the 33 preamp and also works well with passive pots since the input impedance is usefully high too. Doing the above (in the feedback circuit not inline) modernises the 303 to modern specs...

Marco

05-01-2013, 21:07

Good point, Dave. Yup, thinking on it, that's defo how I'd go about it! :)

Marco.

Rare Bird

05-01-2013, 21:17

I thought this topic was about an outboard Phonostage..

Many hundreds of pounds can be spent on the '303' imho as to (how id want it anyway) but thats obviously not the topic.

Macca

06-01-2013, 09:25

Aesthetics are not an issue! how you come to that asumption it looks nothing like a 50's design :scratch: ? You telling me a plain box pre amp wouldnt look out of place within a vintage system?? of course it would where as if it was a phonostage only it can be hidden away so wouldnt matter, switched on/off via the Quad 33/Ferrograph 'F307' mains switching, just forget it even exists.. However Nick has a different need to mine..

There is no design - it is built in a shed - a plain black pressed steel box is a plain black pressed steel box - in any decade.