I'm rarely envious of anyone but.......

[BTH K10A]

I want it all

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[Marco]

Love the EMTs, but you can keep the crusty old SET valve amps! I'm a high-power (Class A) push-pull kind of chap, as I value their GRUNT and ability to play rock music at 'serious' levels without running out of puff, or in some cases with low-powered SET amps, blowing up! :D

Some people say that audio nirvana lies in using low-powered valve amps with high-efficiency speakers... I say it lies in using high-power, pure Class A P/P valve amps with high-efficiency speakers...! Basically, I'd rather have 50W of P/P Class A valve power going into 95db efficient speakers (as in my own set-up), than 8W of piddling single-endedness, going into 100db (or more) efficient speakers ;)

Marco.

[BTH K10A]

Love the EMTs, but you can keep the crusty old SET valve amps! I'm a high-power (Class A) push-pull kind of chap, as I value their GRUNT and ability to play rock music at 'serious' levels without running out of puff, or in some cases with low-powered SET amps, blowing up! :D

Some people say that audio nirvana lies in using low-powered valve amps with high-efficiency speakers... I say it lies in using high-power, pure Class A P/P valve amps with high-efficiency speakers...! Basically, I'd rather have 50W of P/P Class A valve power going into 95db efficient speakers (as in my own set-up), than 8W of piddling single-endedness, going into 100db (or more) efficient speakers ;)

Marco.

Marco, it's all relative.

Given that there's a 3db increase each time power is doubled then your 50 Watts into 95db/W speakers gives 111.8db which is only 4.3db headroom over the 6 Watt SET amp into 100db/W speakers and a fairly even match with the 14 Watt amp into the same. If the speakers are 105db/W and, being Vitavox, those in the video probably are, then the 6 Watt SET would give 112.5db and the 14Watt PP amps would be around 116 db. All figures at 1m of course.

[John]

The guy has big collection of vintage amps I am sure it sounds awesome with Jazz but like Marco wonder how well it rocks it so hard to tell with the quality of sound coming from the video clips

[chris@panteg]

Triodes everytime over any pentode or tetrode amp for me ! And having heard my m8's SET Diavolo a number of times now , it doesn't sound lacking in grunt ? Boy it rocks with the type E's .

[Marco]

Marco, it's all relative.

Given that there's a 3db increase each time power is doubled then your 50 Watts into 95db/W speakers gives 111.8db which is only 4.3db headroom over the 6 Watt SET amp into 100db/W speakers and a fairly even match with the 14 Watt amp into the same. If the speakers are 105db/W and, being Vitavox, those in the video probably are, then the 6 Watt SET would give 112.5db and the 14Watt PP amps would be around 116 db. All figures at 1m of course.

That may be the case in theory, Andy, but I've heard low-powered SET amps, used into 100db speakers, losing the plot with very demanding low bass notes (particularly with electronic and dance music), where they run out of puff and fail to grip huge 15" cones properly at 'gig-style' listening levels, resulting in the speakers producing a loose 'farty' noise, rather than the clean, sphincter-tight, hugely extended, bass line that should be there! ;)

More powerful P/P amps don't do that with the same speakers, especially when used in large rooms, which need plenty of driving. Trust me, I've tested it! :exactly:

There's also another important consideration, and that's the trade-off between bass extension and efficiency. Quite simply, ultra-high efficiency speakers (100db+) don't do genuine deep bass. The biggest ones have scale, and create a huge sound, no question, but it's all rather midrange prominent and lacking in heft, in comparison with the superior bass extension that lower efficiency (but still highly efficient) speakers of the same or similar size produce, especially when driven by 'grippy' high-powered P/P valve amps.

It's all a compromise, of course, but I've found that 95db efficient is about as far as you can go with speakers before bass extension suffers notably. Furthermore, low-power SET valve amps struggle to drive 15" Tannoys at high volume levels - they need at least 30W of Class A valve power up them, in order for proper control to be exerted over those big cones, otherwise you get flabby bass, something I simply can't stand.

Anyway, at the end of the day, there is no 'best' anything - you like what you like, but I've definitely found the best compromise, en-route to my own audio nirvana :cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

Triodes everytime over any pentode or tetrode amp for me ! And having heard my m8's SET Diavolo a number of times now , it doesn't sound lacking in grunt ? Boy it rocks with the type E's .

I guess it depends what you're used to, Chris, in terms of grunt. I'm talking about the relationship between high-power, Class A, P/P valve amps and 15" driver speakers in HUGE cabinets.

How big are the Type Es in comparison with my Lockies? Also, how many genuinely top-notch pentode or tetrode amps have you heard, which are of comparable quality to my copper amp, or something else of that ilk? :)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Well I've heard quite a few in my time , but I don't believe it's necessary to need such huge drivers in such huge cabinets ? Foe me at least , the type E is considerably smaller with 8 inch drivers , these are the Snell versions , the Audionote type E or the Living voice Avatar OBX are my ideal speaker .

I have heard your Lockwoods Marco , Scalford a couple of moons ago , not my cup of tea , I found them overwhelming , it's all a matter of taste at the end of the day , another speaker I love is the Cabasse stand mounter that Tony demmed for me , these probably work best with solid state but that's ok with me .

[Marco]

Yup, each to their own, Chris. I just enjoy the realistic scale and 'physicality' that very large, high-quality speakers produce with music, especially when driven by more than a handful of quality Class A valve watts.

Regarding what you heard at Scalford, as you know full well, hotel rooms are not the best place to judge anything accurately. Despite those limitations, we made what I and many others (judging by the feedback recieved afterwards) considered to be a superb sound. However, it would be interesting to know what you thought when listening to the Lockwoods in their home environment. You should come up for a visit sometime! :)

Marco.

[Thermionic Idler]

I originally purchased my Hornings specifically for use with single ended triode amplifiers, but I found that although the midrange was beautiful, the bass was rather poorly controlled and I was losing some detail. It turns out the Hornings, despite 96dB efficiency, do like the wattage to go into double figures!

They are quite a clever design though -- they're the only speaker I know that use a Lowther properly. I have yet to hear a single driver speaker that can properly reproduce an orchestra at full tilt. Tommy Horning does away with that horrible shouty whizzer cone and treats the surface of what remains so that it rolls off naturally at around 8kHz or thereabouts. That way you don't need to run it through a crossover. Same with the bass drivers at the back, the idea is that you have a lot of surface area that moves a little rather than less that has to move a lot. Those too, are not run through any crossover circuitry as they roll off into the Lowther naturally. The only filter is a high-pass on the tweeter. The whole shooting match is in a horn loaded cabinet, the design of which is patented - but it sounds nothing like a horn speaker which is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. You get that lovely expressive Lowther midrange with none of the shouty drawbacks.

I now can't see myself ever moving on from Class AB OTL amplification. 15W is perfectly adequate for my speakers and typical listening level. Any more than that and the heat rejection would start to become an issue (the only downside of OTL). It's quite an ear opening experience to hear what happens when you take the output transformer out of the equation.

[chris@panteg]

A friend of mine from Northampton has the same Hornings , he was running a pair of Kronzilla's but found them a little hot and a bit scary lol , since moved on to AN P4 balanced mono's , I so want to hear them .

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


I originally purchased my Hornings specifically for use with single ended triode amplifiers, but I found that although the midrange was beautiful, the bass was rather poorly controlled...


Indeed, and that sums up my experience with low-powered SET amps. The usual trade off is poorly controlled bass for a beautifully presented midrange, and that's not a trade-off I'm happy to make, particularly when with my (50W Class A P/P) copper amp, I get 95% of the midrange beauty of the best SETs, together with all the grip and extension in the bass (with the right speakers) one could wish for! :exactly:

Much of it also boils down to the type of music you listen mostly to. If you live off a diet of female vocals, small-scale classical or acoustic-style music, then SET amps and ultra-high efficiency speakers may be the way, but not when you're someone like me who frequently goes from Beth Orton to Metallica, to Tiesto, and goodness knows what else in between - and most importantly, wants the musical performance to sound as lifelike as possible!!


It's quite an ear opening experience to hear what happens when you take the output transformer out of the equation.

Perhaps, but one must guard against the danger of absolutes, as much depends on the quality of the output transformers in question. I have limited experience of OTLs, so can't comment on the results you're getting. However, the ones I've heard, notably those from Berning, have been hugely disappointing, in comparison to what I get from the copper amp, with its huge, top-notch bespoke-made, hand-wound transformers.

When a mate brought his Berning OTL amp round to mine, it sounded very thin and shrill, and distinctly 'transistor-like' (the type of sound produced when solid-state gear is done badly), in comparison with the copper amp (the Berning just didn't sound like a good valve amp should), so much so that the friend in question sold the Berning shortly afterwards and bought a copper amp of his own instead...! So much then for output trannies 'ruining' the sound!! ;)

In order to come to any meaningful conclusions on the matter, in terms of valve amps with and without output transformers, you have to compare, as far as possible, like with like. Otherwise, there are simply too many variables present to skew the results and the achievement of any meaningful comparisons.

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Yup, each to their own, Chris. I just enjoy the realistic scale and 'physicality' that very large, high-quality speakers produce with music, especially when driven by more than a handful of quality Class A valve watts.

Regarding what you heard at Scalford, as you know full well, hotel rooms are not the best place to judge anything accurately. Despite those limitations, we made what I and many others (judging by the feedback recieved afterwards) considered to be a superb sound. However, it would be interesting to know what you thought when listening to the Lockwoods in their home environment. You should come up for a visit sometime! :)

Marco.

A very kind offer Marco , don't know what to say , that's a long old drive ? North Wales is lovely though .

[Thermionic Idler]

Much of it also boils down to the type of music you listen to mostly. If you live off a diet of female vocals, small-scale classical or acoustic-style music, then SET amps and ultra-high efficiency speakers may be the way, but not when you're someone like me who frequently goes from Beth Orton to Metallica, and goodness knows what else in between - and most importantly, wants it to sound as lifelike as possible!!

I agree --- my own tastes are classical and jazz --- but that includes classical on a Wagnerian scale, which requires some grunt and control.


Perhaps, but one must guard against the danger of absolutes, as much depends on the quality of the output transformers in question. I have limited experience of OTLs, so can't comment on the results you're getting.

However, the ones I've heard, notably those from Berning, have been hugely disappointing, in comparison to what I get from the copper amp, with its huge, top-notch bespoke-made, hand-wound transformers. When a mate brought his Berning OTL amp round to mine, it sounded very thin and shrill, and distinctly 'transistor-like' (the type of sound produced when solid-state gear is done badly), in comparison with the copper amp (the Berning just didn't sound like a good valve amp should), so much so that the friend in question sold the Berning shortly afterwards and bought a copper amp of his own instead! ;)

Marco.

That's most interesting, and I agree, if your output transformers are seriously good as it sound like yours are, then they should be much better at getting out of the way.

I haven't heard the Berning myself, the only OTL's I have used are Bruce Rozenblit's Transcendent designs. Maybe they didn't get on with the speaker they were driving. OTL's can be finicky if the impedance curve is too demanding, they don't like drops below 4 ohms. I wonder if they were seeing an impedance drop in the bass region causing them to sound thin.

I recognise the shrillness thing though. Despite Rozenblit's banging the drum about how audio-grade components are a waste of money, I decided to build my "Son of Beast" with ClarityCap MR's and Takman carbon-film resistors (Mills in the higher dissipation positions). The result is that there is absolutely none of the slight edginess that I sometimes used to get with the previous T16 OTL mono blocks I was using some years back (also Transcendent) which I'd built with the standard issue components. Now how much of this is down to the different circuit design, usage of different output valves and how much is down to not having cheap metal film and ceramic wire wound resistors in the signal path, I don't know. But the results I'm getting for £1100 or so investment, plus two week's effort with a soldering iron, really are first rate - very rich and musical, the opposite of thin and shrill.

Sorry, I've gone off at a bit of a tangent from the original thread. :oops:

[Jonboy]

The Lotin white project will hopefully be up and running again soon , this direct coupled SE 1.5 - 2 watt amp can really can do bass much better than a lot a pp amps i've listened to and there's no caps in the circuit !! , its tight as well.

Lovely amps Andy but as with most of these exotics it will take you half a life time to find another to get a stereo pair

[BTH K10A]

The Lotin white project will hopefully be up and running again soon , this direct coupled SE 1.5 - 2 watt amp can really can do bass much better than a lot a pp amps i've listened to and there's no caps in the circuit !! , its tight as well.

Lovely amps Andy but as with most of these exotics it will take you half a life time to find another to get a stereo pair

That's the rub Jon.

But his lucky bugger has pair of each of them

[loo]

It's quite an ear opening experience to hear what happens when you take the output transformer out of the equation.

+1, cant beat a good directly coupled OTL valve amp.
Prefer Electrostatics on the end of mine though;)
but I am old enough to know that any good valve amp can sound magnificent
in the right set up.
Praise to that guy for his restoration work :clapclapclap:
regards loo

[Marco]

+1, cant beat a good directly coupled OTL valve amp.
Prefer Electrostatics on the end of mine though...


With regard to your first point, Paul, I would beg to differ, as I've already outlined. In terms of the second, I'm not a big fan of electrostatics, for many reasons, so I suspect that we have rather different tastes in audio! ;)

It's all good though, as it would be a boring world if we all liked the same things :)

Marco.

[tannoyman]

Love the EMTs, but you can keep the crusty old SET valve amps! I'm a high-power (Class A) push-pull kind of chap, as I value their GRUNT and ability to play rock music at 'serious' levels without running out of puff, or in some cases with low-powered SET amps, blowing up! :D

Some people say that audio nirvana lies in using low-powered valve amps with high-efficiency speakers... I say it lies in using high-power, pure Class A P/P valve amps with high-efficiency speakers...! Basically, I'd rather have 50W of P/P Class A valve power going into 95db efficient speakers (as in my own set-up), than 8W of piddling single-endedness, going into 100db (or more) efficient speakers ;)

Marco.

Hi Marco

You are quite right. My Westminsters never sound better than with high powered (in my case solid state) amps on the end. They are able to generate serious levels effortlessly without ever breaking into a sweat. Sometimes I only realise how much level when I attempt to speak over it and can't.

David :):)

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


That's most interesting, and I agree, if your output transformers are seriously good as it sound like yours are, then they should be much better at getting out of the way.


Indeed... The copper amp weighs 45kg - and most of that comes from the iron used in the transformers! :eek:

Fact: not all output transformers (and their influence on the sound of a valve amplifier) are equal... ;)

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Yep, but they have an effect regardless of how expensive or heavy they are.

[Marco]

Yup, Ali, but then everyting in audio has an effect! However, to say that all output traffos are bad, and that OTLs automatically sound better, as a result, is to grossly misunderstand the point and underestimate the sonic effect of the rest of the circuit inside a valve amp.

For example, I'd put my copper amp up against any OTL valve design, confident in the fact that Anthony has probably created a better overall circuit than that featured in *most* OTLs, despite his design being 'hampered' by the use of output transformers! ;)

Marco.

[Thermionic Idler]

Yep, but they have an effect regardless of how expensive or heavy they are.

Ali I think you heard my T16's at one of the old WAD get-togethers at that power station that I can't remember the name of now lol. 2005 I think it was?

I had the Loricrafted Garrard 401 with MusicMaker / Hadcock as well, at the time.

The S.O.B. is much better! :D

[Ali Tait]

Yes I remember Dave. I do like OTL's. Nick built me a prototype direct coupled amp for my statics using 813's, which sounded amazing in many ways. He will be doing me a pukka version with GM70's which I have very high hopes for.

[Ali Tait]

Yup, Ali, but then everyting in audio has an effect! However, to say that all output traffos are bad, and that OTLs automatically sound better, as a result, is to grossly misunderstand the point and underestimate the sonic effect of the rest of the circuit inside a valve amp.

Marco.

Don't think anyone said that Marco, though it is a truism that the best component is no component, anything that the signal has to pass through will have an effect, and one of the biggest effects is the output transformer in a conventional valve amp. It is not there because it makes the amp sound better, it's there because it is required to couple the valve's output to the loudspeaker.

On the other hand, an OTL needs to be used with the right speaker to give of it's best, so is limited in it's use.

As you say, it's all a compromise based onpersonal taste.

I will say though, that the prototype direct coupled amp Nick built for my statics in many ways is still the best sounding amp I've heard, and that's despite the fact that it was made with what he had to hand, so was well away from what the final version will be I hope.

[Marco]

Don't think anyone said that Marco...


I think you'll find that Paul (loo) was intimating such earlier... Scroll back and have a look. As soon as I sniff any form of absolutism, I nip it right in the bud! ;)


...though it is a truism that the best component is no component, anything that the signal has to pass through will have an effect, and one of the biggest effects is the output transformer in a conventional valve amp. It is not there because it makes the amp sound better, it's there because it is required to couple the valve's output to the loudspeaker.


Most definitely! However, my point is that if the transformers are good enough and big enough, then their effect shouldn't be massively detrimental, and most importantly, that one must also consider the effect of the rest of the circuit. See the edit to my last post...

There's no point in having an OTL design, if the rest of the circuit is crap (or at least not as good as that in a competing valve amp which uses output traffos). At the end of the day, it's all about correct implementation and how clever and successful the designer has been in getting an amp to do, sonically, what it is that he wanted! :exactly:

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Not really mate, he was just extolling the virtues of OTL's in the same way you do for your amp!

I agree good transformers make all the difference, along with the circuit and quality of components.

[Marco]

Not really mate, he was just extolling the virtues of OTL's in the same way you do for your amp!


Fair enough, but that's not how it read at the time. Anyway, it's not worth dwelling on any further. I'm sure that Paul didn't mean what he wrote to come across in a negative way :)

I'm just wary when I see these forms of absolutism crop up. Another one is op-amps inside DACs, which supposedly make for a crap sound. What utter nonsense... My Sony DAC is full of the buggers, and it's one of the best DACs I've heard at any price!! :eyebrows:

My point is that people sometimes focus too much on one aspect of a design, without taking into consideration the bigger picture... 'Nuff said!

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Yep agree, though we all have our favourite ways of doing things. It's being happy with what you have that matters.

[Thermionic Idler]

It's certainly true that the circuit for an OTL requires a greater degree of complexity than the equivalent for transformer coupling --- just so that the damn thing will work. The Futterman-based circuits such as that in mine, require gobs of negative feedback to reduce the output impedance to a manageable level.

That's why I felt it was even more important to make the signal path passive component quality as good as I could reasonably afford to make it.

As with everything, there is a compromise, and it's really about picking which compromise works best for you. :)

[Jonboy]

the best component is no component,

That's why i think the Loftin white is so good, there's no caps to change the sound and a simple circuit

[Mr. C]

A friend of mine from Northampton has the same Hornings , he was running a pair of Kronzilla's but found them a little hot and a bit scary lol , since moved on to AN P4 balanced mono's , I so want to hear them .

Hi Chris

Those Cabasse stand mounts will just work fine with valves they are 93dB so 18watts of 2A3 sound mighty fine.

While you are up in Northampton, ask your friend if he would ask his friend for a listen to his all Audio Note set up (Gaku On's M10, T5, D5 signature). One of the best valve systems I have heard

It is the first valve set up I personally could live with on a day to day basis.

Personal choice is great thing, having heard great examples of low powered SET's into big horns, and large drivered (12" plus) 94+dB efficiency speakers they all have their plus and minus points.

Some people want to move air, others wish to hear the delicacy and layering in the sound.

For me I prefer a speaker which is a hugely transparent and harder to drive transducer coupled with a quality medium powered (Ultra fast high transient current response amplifiers) I feel this combination 'communicates' complex rhythmic patterns, textural layering whilst conveying superb linearity and great dynamic dexterity better than the above.

However if we all liked the same life would pretty dull, there are always exceptions and star products at all stages in audio reproduction.

I recently manged a sneak listen to a prototype OTL device which was rather special I can see this causing a few bottle-heads to re evaluate the premise of transformer coupled thermionics.

Also recently heard some quite nice new horn loaded drivers at a colleagues place a few weeks back, certainly filled the room with that O2 feeling and without the usual horn issue of 'in yer face' performance almost easy on the eye as well.

However to say these were coloured is like saying AN 'E's sound like Focal Utopia's :D Also the bass issue what rears it head with horn loaded drivers and atc's lack of quality bass below 45Hz.

They were certainly fun, filled the room with ease (98dB) and bounced along in a way that naim would love to do. But man they made LV's sound clinical :stalks:

This is purely a question of how do you like yours :)

[Ali Tait]

Do tell more on the OTL please.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Chris

Those Cabasse stand mounts will just work fine with valves they are 93dB so 18watts of 2A3 sound mighty fine.

While you are up in Northampton, ask your friend if he would ask his friend for a listen to his all Audio Note set up (Gaku On's M10, T5, D5 signature). One of the best valve systems I have heard

It is the first valve set up I personally could live with on a day to day basis.

Personal choice is great thing, having heard great examples of low powered SET's into big horns, and large drivered (12" plus) 94+dB efficiency speakers they all have their plus and minus points.

Some people want to move air, others wish to hear the delicacy and layering in the sound.

For me I prefer a speaker which is a hugely transparent and harder to drive transducer coupled with a quality medium powered (Ultra fast high transient current response amplifiers) I feel this combination 'communicates' complex rhythmic patterns, textural layering whilst conveying superb linearity and great dynamic dexterity better than the above.

However if we all liked the same life would pretty dull, there are always exceptions and star products at all stages in audio reproduction.

I recently manged a sneak listen to a prototype OTL device which was rather special I can see this causing a few bottle-heads to re evaluate the premise of transformer coupled thermionics.

Also recently heard some quite nice new horn loaded drivers at a colleagues place a few weeks back, certainly filled the room with that O2 feeling and without the usual horn issue of 'in yer face' performance almost easy on the eye as well.

However to say these were coloured is like saying AN 'E's sound like Focal Utopia's :D Also the bass issue what rears it head with horn loaded drivers and atc's lack of quality bass below 45Hz.

They were certainly fun, filled the room with ease (98dB) and bounced along in a way that naim would love to do. But man they made LV's sound clinical :stalks:

This is purely a question of how do you like yours :)

Hi Tony , you know Paul of course , he's hard to track down at the moment , he's joined a choir and galavanting all round the country , but he's promised me a listen .

I'd forgotten the cabasse were so sensitive , how stupid of me , those 18 watts would be Guy's 2A3 amp I think ? I could happily live with those in truth !

[Mr. C]

Hello Chris

That very combination works extremely well and exudes musicality.

How is life with you? did you have a good Xmas?

[chris@panteg]

Hello Chris

That very combination works extremely well and exudes musicality.

How is life with you? did you have a good Xmas?

Yes thanks Tony , no illness to cope with for a change and a warm fire now installed , very cosy , yourself ?

[Mr. C]

Actually enjoying some time off for once, good Christmas as well.

Catching up with some website updates and manged to finish the latest generation digital transport so all in all good thanks.

If you have some time in the next few weeks why not drop by for a coffee and some music.

[chris@panteg]

Actually enjoying some time off for once, good Christmas as well.

Catching up with some website updates and manged to finish the latest generation digital transport so all in all good thanks.

If you have some time in the next few weeks why not drop by for a coffee and some music.

Very kind offer Tony , thanks , will have to see .

[John]

There is a lot to be said about Tony above approach I was very impressed with his reference system ticked a lot of boxes to my ears