Which CD Transport?

[jmj]

Hello all,

I haven't posted in while but thought I would because I'm unsure what my next upgrade step should be and would appreciate some advice from you kind lot.

My system is: an Audio Note DAC 0.1X, Audion Sterling Limited 20th Anniversary valve amp, Rega Planet Mk 1 (used as a transport only) with a Trichord Research 4 Clock and a pair of Dali Suite 2.8 speakers. I also use an Audio Edwards ISO1 mains filter with the CD player.

I really like the sound of the system: it's warm, involving and very musical. The amp and the DAC are fairly new purchases and have completing transformed my listening experience for the better. However, despite upgrading the clock on Planet I believe that if I changed this for a dedicated transport player my listening experience could be further enhanced. I feel this way because of the age of the player (approx 14 years old) it's CD player - not a dedicated transport, and its somewhat basic transport mechanism. It appears basic to me anyway.

The models I am considering are: an Audio Note CDT Zero 2, Cyrus CDXT SE2 or CDT, Musical Fidelity M1 CDT, Stello CDT100 or a second-hand CEC 51TLX. I recently purchased a Kenwood DPX9010 transport with the idea of changing the clock and power supply but then discovered that new lasers are impossible to come by. Although the laser is fine at the moment, I can't risk spending money on upgrades only for it to fail, leaving me with an impressive paper weight..

Also, I know the sun is setting on the spinning disc and that sooner or later I will have to embrace streaming and hi-res downloads etc but I'm not ready to do that yet. And frankly, I still not convinced that downloads have same level of ownership satisfaction compared to CDs. As my set-up may suggest, I mainly listen to rock, jazz and folk. Although I do like electric dance music on occasions.

Right, that's enough from me. All help, advice, tips and recommendations greatly appreciated.

Thanks all,

Josh

[worrasf]

Hello all,

I haven't posted in while but thought I would because I'm unsure what my next upgrade step should be and would appreciate some advice from you kind lot.

My system is: an Audio Note DAC 0.1X, Audion Sterling Limited 20th Anniversary valve amp, Rega Planet Mk 1 (used as a transport only) with a Trichord Research 4 Clock and a pair of Dali Suite 2.8 speakers. I also use an Audio Edwards ISO1 mains filter with the CD player.

I really like the sound of the system: it's warm, involving and very musical. The amp and the DAC are fairly new purchases and have completing transformed my listening experience for the better. However, despite upgrading the clock on Planet I believe that if I changed this for a dedicated transport player my listening experience could be further enhanced. I feel this way because of the age of the player (approx 14 years old) it's CD player - not a dedicated transport, and its somewhat basic transport mechanism. It appears basic to me anyway.

The models I am considering are: an Audio Note CDT Zero 2, Cyrus CDXT SE2 or CDT, Musical Fidelity M1 CDT, Stello CDT100 or a second-hand CEC 51TLX. I recently purchased a Kenwood DPX9010 transport with the idea of changing the clock and power supply but then discovered that new lasers are impossible to come by. Although the laser is fine at the moment, I can't risk spending money on upgrades only for it to fail, leaving me with an impressive paper weight..

Also, I know the sun is setting on the spinning disc and that sooner or later I will have to embrace streaming and hi-res downloads etc but I'm not ready to do that yet. And frankly, I still not convinced that downloads have same level of ownership satisfaction compared to CDs. As my set-up may suggest, I mainly listen to rock, jazz and folk. Although I do like electric dance music on occasions.

Right, that's enough from me. All help, advice, tips and recommendations greatly appreciated.

Thanks all,

Josh
Hi Josh
I have a Cyrus CD XT SE2 and am very happy with it. Stunning SQ and unlike previous models reliability after nearly 12 months has not been an issue. I use it with a Bushmaster (venom) and have no desire to change.
I've not heard the others on your list.

Steve

[DSJR]

If looking at used, PLEASE lok out for spares availability, since most of us on vintage players (top end of the late 80's to mid 90's) may be in deep doo-doos once the laser expires (I have a Denon 1520 as transport in the second setup and it's getting very tetchy, even after a beneficial laser clean).

I'd also suggest that more recent players of all price ranges *should* have got the jitter thing sorted once and for all and hopefully proper 75 ohm digital outputs too (amazing how many in the early 90's were nowhere near 75 ohm matching according to paul Miller who tested a few back then).

Good luck with your search. I'd probably look first at the one made for your DAC since one would think they've been designed to match each other. Knowing Audio Note though, anything is possible ;)

[wee tam]

pioneer pd=91 , all spares still being manufactured by pioneer , not short on foot taping either

[DSJR]

The PD91 was so good in standard form I reckon the Audio Note DAC wouldn't be necessary either :) Great to know that spares are available for it still, unlike my Philips/Marantz based Micro Seiki, which needed me to cannibalise another mech to get the part I needed.

[jmj]

Thanks for your comments all.

Steve - Did you audition any other transports before purchasing the Cyrus CD XT SE2? Also, does the addition of the PSX-R make a significant difference to the sound quality?

Cheers

[worrasf]

Thanks for your comments all.

Steve - Did you audition any other transports before purchasing the Cyrus CD XT SE2? Also, does the addition of the PSX-R make a significant difference to the sound quality?

Cheers

Hi Josh
I'd had numerous Cyrus CD players before this one. Immediately before I had a CD XT which I thought better than the CD8 I had before that. Unfortunately reliability was a problem and ultimately Cyrus gave me a new CD XT SE2 so I had not heard it before it arrived. It's significantly "better" than the CD XT. Yes, the PSxR makes noticeable difference - better bass and more open sound stage.

Steve

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Hi JMJ. I also have the CDXTSE2 and I'm running it with a PSX-R. The difference is almost big enough to be described as massive. Without PSX the sound seems a little thin (though still excellent). Night and day difference. At time I bought transport I had a Yamaha CDS2000 which is highly rated and a Cyrus CD8SE. The Yammy was well back in third place. A decent ARCAM player wasn't anywhere in the picture. Cyrus CD transport will give anything a run for the money.

[vouk]

Don't know if they are imported in the UK, but take a look at North Star designs: their dac's and transports are top notch.

[hifinutt]

later cyrus cd transports seem reasonably free from complaints and the huge volume of complaints re them has reduced on the cu forum [under technical section]
you should research there carefully

http://www.cyrusunofficial.co.uk/

the psxr makes a difference to their components , i have had several and the last one was on an FMX radio from cyrus

personally i prefer a Bel canto cd2 as a rock solid almost unbreakable cd transport , midland audio have a sale of bc stuff right now

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Did I mention I'm banned from Cyrus Unofficial?

[wee tam]

yep you are right , 24 bit meridian 563 , but prefer tha analogue out as opposed to the transport via the meridian :scratch: more of everything , but as a transport (tried loads 0 its still damned fine
The PD91 was so good in standard form I reckon the Audio Note DAC wouldn't be necessary either :) Great to know that spares are available for it still, unlike my Philips/Marantz based Micro Seiki, which needed me to cannibalise another mech to get the part I needed.

[nat8808]

Spares Shmares! Just have fun with the Kenwood and enjoy both the satisfaction of the DIY and knowledge that it was cheap. It will most likely keep on going for many many years.

Think about the reality of it...

So you buy something with spares available. How long until the new one needs a spare laser? 5 years (then its crap and you'll feel conned), 10 years ( then it's still crap seeing as vintage players can last 20, 30 years), 15? Will the manufacturer be around, will they still have spares then? Most likely not. So you're in the same position somewhere down the line.

Newer transports and lasers are cheaply made and quite LIKELY to go wrong soon too, probably has the same life left as a better made laser of a classic, perhaps less in fact..

What is the cost of replacement for the new one? Probably a few hundred from the manufacturer plus fitting. If the manufacturer is holding on to spares for customers, you're paying for it in either the price or the replacement price.

What is the cost of replacing the Kenwood? Probably a max of £150 in the future to replace the whole machine!

What is the difference in cost between the new transport and the modded Kenwood? Probably about £4-500 from the outset. Then factor in the replacement laser for the new one versus buying a replacement Kenwood - the new one ends up costing £hundreds more but UPFRONT.

The laser CAN be readily replaced in the Kenwood: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/111364-looking-laser-unit-kenwood-dp-x9010.html

Then ask yourself if a CD Transport will still be your main digital source in 5, 10 years time. Certainly it probably won't be for others so there will be a glut of forgotten top transports out there by then, probably before anything goes wrong anyway..

So, the only considerations should be about sound and looks and if you're willing to pay for that IF the new one is better in those areas.

That is how I see it anyway...

I would go for something from around early-mid 90s when mechanisms were CD only, and top end ones were bomb proof. Or of course some DVD machines can be modded to beat the best too.

[nat8808]

Oh, and then about 8/10 " failed lasers" are nothing of the sort, they're failed laser power supplies or ribbon cables or control circuitry or the spindle motor etc etc.

I took a Meridian MCD to a repairman who was a MASSIVE vintage CD player fan, especially early first generation like MCD. He told me the laser was dead and to throw it away.

I did some research and cleaned the bushes on the spindle motor and is has worked perfectly ever since.. Even experience repair people are ignorant. Better to get help from DIYaudio.com ..

http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/TRANSPORT/laser/Laserology.html

[jmj]

Hello all,

Thanks for all your helpful comments. Nat8808, you make an interesting point about persevering with the Kenwood, although I don't quite follow your logic. Remember the idea is to improve the transport to improve the overall sound of the system. At the moment I can hear very little difference between the Rega Planet and the X9010 is its current form. Perhaps the Kenwood just has the edge when used with the Edwards Audio filter but there is very little in it.

To get more out of the Kenwood I would have to upgrade the clock and power supply, which can be done for £400-£500. This is nearly the same amount as a Cyrus CDT or Musical Fidelity M1 CDT. I suspect that an upgraded X9010 would deliver better sound than these players but how much better would require an A/B listening test. Also, the Cyrus CDT can be further upgraded to the range topping model - CDXT SE2+, which should easy eclipse an upgraded X9010.

I believe the Kenwood is between 15-20 years old so realistically the laser could fail at any time. Although I note your point that laser failures are often nothing of the sort, if it did fail the player would become useless as apparently new lasers for these models are no longer available. This would be a lot of money wasted. Even, if the laser didn't fail for a few years there is a reasonable change that it might. Is it really worth the risk?

I accept that new players aren't built as well as older ones and won't last as long. Even so, I would expect at least 5-10 years of trouble free use. After all I’ve had the Planet since 1998 and had no problems with it so far.

Also, if a new player did so wrong within this time, there would still be spares available, which may also be cheaper than they are now as more people move away from cd players to streamers etc. and big companies lower their prices to keep existing cd player customers happy. Hopefully...

Don't get me wrong, I like the appearance/build of the Kenwood and if I could be sure of longer lasting use then I wouldn’t hesitate to upgrade it. It would certainly make my Bank Manager happier...

Cheers

[nbaptista]

And a Rega Apollo R as a transport?I'm looking for a transport,too!The Cyrus CDTseems a good option, but a bit expensive

[roob]

And a Rega Apollo R as a transport?I'm looking for a transport,too!The Cyrus CDTseems a good option, but a bit expensive
You have a Rega dac I think so why buy an Apollo as a transport :mental:

[nbaptista]

You have a Rega dac I think so why buy an Apollo as a transport :mental:
DAC+ Transport for playing cd´s
I´m using it mainly through USB
this Cyrus seems great and is a dedicated cd transport
http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/Cyrus-CDT-CD-Transport/product_6811

[roob]

Nuno you have been asking this for months now, the Rega dac re-clocks incoming data so it should be transport immune.
To test this theory swap out the cdp you are using now as a transport for a dvd or blu-ray player and see if you hear a difference, if you can then buy a dedicated transport.

[nat8808]

Hello all,

Thanks for all your helpful comments. Nat8808, you make an interesting point about persevering with the Kenwood, although I don't quite follow your logic. Remember the idea is to improve the transport to improve the overall sound of the system. At the moment I can hear very little difference between the Rega Planet and the X9010 is its current form. Perhaps the Kenwood just has the edge when used with the Edwards Audio filter but there is very little in it.

It could be that none of the other trasnports will sound any different then.. It could be, as someone else has said, that your DAC is relatively immune to the transport used.


To get more out of the Kenwood I would have to upgrade the clock and power supply, which can be done for £400-£500. This is nearly the same amount as a Cyrus CDT or Musical Fidelity M1 CDT. I suspect that an upgraded X9010 would deliver better sound than these players but how much better would require an A/B listening test. Also, the Cyrus CDT can be further upgraded to the range topping model - CDXT SE2+, which should easy eclipse an upgraded X9010.

As you say you would have to some A/B testing to hear if ANY transport is any better than the others, including if the MF M1 or Cyrus actually make an improvement on the Rega Planet.. I wouldn't assume, just because the are new, that they will make a difference if the Kenwood doesn't. MF and Cyrus still have to sell their customers matching transports for their DACs so they still are forced to make them. Doesn't mean that they are state of the art or even any better than any that have gone before.. they might just simply match.

Regarding the Kenwood, I wouldn't bother upgrading the power supply as it is already pretty good. Installing a clock would cost about £140 for a Trichord 4b (although I got one with Never Connected PSU for £60 used on ebay) which you can install yourself. IF you should need to replace the Kenwood you can move it over to the new machine - there would be no money lost on it.. So you would only be replacing the original machine SHOULD there be a reason to do so, but I really doubt there would be such a reason.

Have you seen inside the MF and Cyrus or Stello transports? The MF is slot loading and uses a laptop DVD drive - nothing special, nothing super-solid and bomb proof like the Kenwood.

My DVD drive in my 6 year old Sony laptop (which stays at home) is tempermental and doesn't play DVDs any more at all. The one in the MF is probably about the same quality. The Cyrus is also a slot loader and it would be far too expensive for Cyrus to use anything other than a current laptop DVD drive too. That the transports sound good will be more down to the on-chip software and probably a RAM buffer in the circuitry - this can be found in any DVD players and hence why many, even cheap DVD players are actually good transports.. If you're going to use a laptop DVD drive, why not just use a laptop and rip the CDs?

The Stello appears to use a boombox, flimsy transport which can sound good too (search "Shigaclone" for many DIY projects that use them) but still I wouldn't give it much for long term reliability.

I would seriously bet that the Kenwood would still outlast those above, even though it has already aged 20 odd years. Yes, seriously!


I believe the Kenwood is between 15-20 years old so realistically the laser could fail at any time.

Realistically, ANY transport could fail at any time. You have to wiegh up the likelyhood based on experience. What is your experience, my experience?

My experience is that old, solidly built transport mechanisms have never failed on me ever.. (there were some like the CDM2 which always fail but have already done so). Cheaply built computer drives and DVD players have failed often in my experience. No-one has experience of the MF or Cyrus players as they are new.

I'm afraid that technology has become cheaper to make and it is expected that we all upgrade often so things these days are just not built to last... The expected lifetime of even the best laptop DVD drive won't be THAT long - even the best brand won't bother spending money on reliability that is longer than the expected life of the actual laptop (probably ~ 5 years as people upgrade..).


Although I note your point that laser failures are often nothing of the sort, if it did fail the player would become useless as apparently new lasers for these models are no longer available. This would be a lot of money wasted. Even, if the laser didn't fail for a few years there is a reasonable change that it might. Is it really worth the risk?

I accept that new players aren't built as well as older ones and won't last as long. Even so, I would expect at least 5-10 years of trouble free use. After all I’ve had the Planet since 1998 and had no problems with it so far.

Also, if a new player did so wrong within this time, there would still be spares available, which may also be cheaper than they are now as more people move away from cd players to streamers etc. and big companies lower their prices to keep existing cd player customers happy. Hopefully...

How are you judging these statistics, these chances that it might fail? It's based on the very same concept based on nothing really. It's a fear that's not based on your own or even other's real experience. Kind of like being agrophobic but with transport failure.

When I say that most laser failures aren't laser failures, that applies to old machines, machines that were built to last for as long as it was forseeable that CDs would last.

NEW mech laser failures very often really are laser failures as the lasers are not made to last because it is expected that the whole machine will be recycled within less than 10 years.

It wouldn't be a lot of money wasted as not only can the laser be replaced (see the DIYaudio link) but so can any mods you make be transfered to the next one.

It WOULD be a waste of money if the new one failed out of warranty and they either use up spares fixing other customer ones or they don't carry the spares. You'd have to replace the whole slot DVD drive and probably it will have to be exact and hard to find - it won't be listed as a spare for the cd transport and therefore kept by people, it will more likey be thrown out and destroyed as an obsolete old laptop DVD drive while technology has moved on. Do people keep old DVD players or laptops even when they work? No. Cheap throw-away products are always that, thrown away..

Heavy built CD transports like the Kenwood are held on to as quality bits of kit that you no-longer see made.

Anyway, ask MF/Cyrus/Stello if they plan to carry spares for 5-10 years before buying... I think I know the answer already.

The Rega Planet uses a pretty good Sony laser that was built to last, hence why it is still running.


Don't get me wrong, I like the appearance/build of the Kenwood and if I could be sure of longer lasting use then I wouldn’t hesitate to upgrade it. It would certainly make my Bank Manager happier...

Cheers

You can't be sure that the new ones will last.. Why are you sure about them and not the Kenwood? It's a state of mind that only you can change.

My state of mind has changed through experience of the old machines that keep on going (or have non-laser related problems).

Sorry for going on - just thought I'd go through and explain my logic. It only makes sense if you empty your mind of projected false notions (that everything new is good and you should spend more money) and build a model of the world based on real experience even if it is other's well balanced experiences.

To be honest, despite the nice build of the Kenwood etc - if it's just sound you want and cheap replacability too - I'd try out a brand DVD player first. Even Goldmund famously took a cheap Pioneer DVD player and used the exact same internals for their €5000 CD transport, supposedly without any modification except for a fancy case. The Pioneer just sounded very good..

[nbaptista]

To test this theory swap out the cdp you are using now as a transport for a dvd or blu-ray player and see if you hear a difference, if you can then buy a dedicated transport.
I did that, with a old Sony DVD and is a minor difference

[jmj]

Any one got anything further to add to my original post?

[walpurgis]

Yes!

Any Meridian CD player from 2 series onwards and any Pioneer 'stable platter' player (with analogue output) makes a great transport.

I own a Meridian 507 and a couple of Pioneer PD-S505 Precision players and use them only as transports. They sound very different, but work brilliantly, very musical.

[nbaptista]

http://www.codebunny.org/audio/cdtransports.html

[themystical]

Based on listening tests, the best CD transport I have owned is a Samsung Bluray player. This is after owning super duper heavily engineered transports such as the Electrocompaniet EMC1 based on Philips CDM Pro transport and turntable like isolation. It is only when I saw some jitter measurements that I realised why my ears were telling me that a £100 piece of equipment sounded better than a £3k one.
If SQ is one of the main criterias, I would suggest listen with your own ears before shelling out £££'s on equipment that is aesthetically configured to appear like heavily engineered.

[Yomanze]

Yes!

Any Meridian CD player from 2 series onwards and any Pioneer 'stable platter' player (with analogue output) makes a great transport.

I own a Meridian 507 and a couple of Pioneer PD-S505 Precision players and use them only as transports. They sound very different, but work brilliantly, very musical.

Good recommendations. :)

90s transports (Sony ES, Pioneer etc.) still offer the most natural, non-fatiguing sound for CD playback in my experience. Modern stuff generally has more digital artefacts & may even sound more 'detailed', but it's an etching of the sound.

[nbaptista]

I had the chance to buy a Sony 228 ESD . It seems the 327 ESD has a much better transport. The problem with these palyers are the lens that are no longer available!

[hifinutt]

i know its out of budget but i really like msb cd transport 4 . if the cd rom fails you simply unscrew the player and fit a new one
it is a beautiful cd transport and quite an improvement on my last beautiful transport
[bel canto cd 2]

[The Black Adder]

+1 for the PD-91

I have one that may be up for sale soon... It's a minter! PM if interested...

I just need something cheap and decent to spin discs on these days as I'm using my turntable more and more.

[walpurgis]

Here you go. Meridian 206, just listed on eBay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Boothroyd-Stuart-Meridian-206-CD-Fully-Working-Very-Nice-Condition-/170973019364?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_CDPlayerSeparates&hash=item27cec93ce4

I've used one of these as a transport and it gives lovely musical results, sounds pretty damn good as a stand alone CD player anyway, built like battleship. It may go cheap.

[Rare Bird]

Don't you think all this transport buisness is all snobby? If your not happy with your CD player why not buy another?

I think it's about i'ts better cos i have a pre/power instead of an intergrated amp!

[walpurgis]

Hi Andr'e, most of the time I use a relatively cheap, old Pioneer CD player as a transport through a decent DAC. The benefits are there to be heard. No snob value to me I assure you.

My current pre/power amplification has a TVC pre-amp, which you just would not find in any integrated I'm aware of. It drives a pure Class A power amp and again the results speak for themselves.

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Don't you thin all this transport buisness is all snobby? If your not happy with your CD player why not buy another?

I think it's about i'ts better cos i have a pre/power instead of an intergrated amp.

There's a lot of snobbery in Hifi that's for sure. But most people do stuff for better performance. I have a transport/DAC and I also have FOUR power amps. I can assure you that snobbery didn't come into it. I can also guarantee that the changes improved the sound quality massively.

Most importantly the changes and the sq achieved have made me happy. I enjoy my system very much and actually quite like looking at all if those boxes. But it's all about the sound that fills the room and it's superb.

[Rare Bird]

:hmm: four power amps! i suppose their mono aswell ;)

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

:hmm: four power amps! i suppose their mono aswell ;)

Yes. Four monos.

[jmj]

Hello again all,

Thanks for all your contributions.

Walpurgis - The Meridian 206 sounds like an interesting suggestion. My only concern is that I may not be able to find a replacement laser if it were to go wrong as I have been informed in the past that this is the case with these old Meridian players. Do you know if they are still available for the 206?

Themystical - What Samsung DVD player are you referring to, is it still available to buy new?

Many thanks

[nbaptista]

and a Wadia WT 3200 ? do you think there are spare parts in the market?

[themystical]

Themystical - What Samsung DVD player are you referring to, is it still available to buy new?


The one that I have presonally is (quite) a few years old (BD-P2500) which also had a Sabre DAC in it. I don't think this model is available now but a couple of years ago they were flogging them off for £50 or less.
I think Samsung appear to make Blurays with the lowest audio jitter (amongst CD/DVD/Bluray players) as this article from Hifi World (link) would indicate (about halfway down).
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/letters/293-december-2010-issue.html?start=2
They appear to be pretty cheap too as a bonus.
It is a pity that Jitter measurements are not widely published but I would take that as the best technical indicator of the likely sound quality. I am afraid that you will have to do a bit more research on the current crop of players.

[nbaptista]

according with this guy, is all about jitter. Interesting...
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/transport-bit-accuracy-two-theories-explaining-the-sonic-differences-between-cd-transports-1/

[jmj]

Hi NAT808,

Sorry for the late reply. I thought we were all done here. You raise some interesting points, thanks. I will give them some thought and get back to you if I have any questions etc.

Cheers