View Full Version : Can you improve the stock techie bearing???
After a few email exchanges with J7, I'm now in possession of some of his super slippery oil.:)
I decided to set about my techie bearing. Having been inside the techie on more than a few occasions, it didn't take long to get to and remove the bearing. On inspection it was obvious it was long overdue service. Although the shaft didn't seem tight, you could see the sticky residue tell tale of old oil well past its best.
I disassembled the bearing and thoroughly cleaned it including giving it a bath in the ultrasonic cleaner.It was spotless when I'd finished. When I put it all back together, I used the thicker oil on the shaft as well as in the bottom of the bearing I could see the bearing appears to be a "total loss" type set up and I assumed the thinner oil would disperse away from the bearing fairly quickly. Unfortunately the shaft did not spin as freely as I'd expected. I cleaned the shaft again and reapplied the thinner oil that came in the origami kit. The shaft now spins much more freely.
Looking a the base of the spindle where it sits in the bearing assembly, there is nothing to keep the oil captive. I wonder if some improvement to the baseplate in order to maybe keep a very shallow bath of oil would give any long term gains???
Am I barking up the wrong tree or am I just barking??>???:)
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/11CDDF9E-D2F4-4E97-A111-7246D3145C5B-3447-00000202D1CEF464.jpg
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/9D0631AA-EE96-46AF-AE0E-45FB4FBB9F3F-3447-000002030F66B733.jpg
jagdesign
27-12-2012, 23:55
I think adding an oil bath and changing the thrust pad setup pretty much equals the vantage audio bearing upgrade, I may be wrong though.
I'm intending to do the same with mine at some point.
Found this on google as well as a picture of the vantage bearing. Looks like I'm not the first to have the same idea!!
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a150/tubesforever/TechnicsBearing006.jpg
Dingdong
28-12-2012, 18:18
The standard Techie bearing is not exactly an engineering masterpiece. When I had one briefly I use some slightly thicker oil with some moly in it That would hopefully stay on the shaft of the spindle longer, and then removed the circlip so that I could lift the spindle now and then so that a little oil dropped to the bottom of the spindle. The bottom of the spindle sits on a pad of summat slippy (technical term) so I reckoned it wouldn't need as much oil around it as summat with a metal to metal contact.
You could always ditch the bearing and get summat like the Mike New bearing, if you fancy splashing some cash.
Viscous oil will cause more drag, but the torque in the motor is so high, it probably wouldn't make any difference. The plastic thrust pad should be very low friction and pretty long lasting even with no lubrication I reckon. Only if you lot insist on using heavy clamps would the existing bearing be stressed I think.....
Is Vantage Audio up and running still? There were some great and not expensive updates available from him.....
By the way, wasn't the captive-oil thing something the Timestep bearing attended to?
prestonchipfryer
29-12-2012, 14:10
By the way, wasn't the captive-oil thing something the Timestep bearing attended to?
Yes it was. I had one but moved it on when I had the MN bearing.
To be honest the stock item was as good as the TS in my opinion and listening experience.
I don't think the stock bearing is bad in terms of tolerances, as platter rock wasn't an issue ever as I recall. I appreciate the far better custom-made MN bearing though, but the TS one just seemed to develop what was already there, even if it wasn't strictly necessary for audible improvement. The ope part of the casting was a throwback to the auto days of some models, the cam-gear using the apature to connect with the spindle shaft on these models. The SL150/1500's I've had were fully enclosed and the bearing tip and thrust plate (plastic on these too) could be bathed in a pool of oil.
chris@panteg
29-12-2012, 15:06
Dave , the Timestep bearing had a separate ball bearing , which if you think about it is not a great idea ? You're increasing the surface contact are as DC keeps stating but also increasing noise with an additional boundary surface , I found it tended to exaggerate bass notes and was easily outperformed by the Vantaged bearing , recent problems I've had were down to cartridge set up .
Is Vantage now up and running again????? I keep asking, but either don't get or miss the answers :scratch: I do think Richard has good understanding of the deck and, away from demands for this or that at huge prices, seems to do properly researched and reasonably priced updates for the techie.
chris@panteg
30-12-2012, 09:54
Is Vantage now up and running again????? I keep asking, but either don't get or miss the answers :scratch: I do think Richard has good understanding of the deck and, away from demands for this or that at huge prices, seems to do properly researched and reasonably priced updates for the techie.
Not at the moment , but should be in the new year , will update you Dave , when I know more .
Thanks, I'd appreciate it :)
Thinking about the michell clamp, if you press down on the clamp in order to press the record against the platter when you tighten it, surely the reaction to the force is to lift the spindle off the thrust plate?????? The extreme result could be that the spindle is not in contact with the thrust plate and that the circlip is rubbing against the underside of the brass collar???
I'd expect this not to be the case with a weight???
Gravity rules here guv'nor... The spindle will always drop back into position on the thrust pad.
DOH! Of course, must have started too early on the silly juice yesterday!!!
Mike_New
08-01-2013, 06:27
Hi UV101
I was not going to respond to this thread, on the basis that it has all been said before, years ago. Then I realised that a lot of newcomers to, and readers of this forum would be totally unaware of the ample discussions on the subject of the humble Techie bearing. And humble it is too!!
Your excellent images of the bearing show just how lightly designed and built the bearing is. All the so called modified bearings can be no better than the housing which contains the shaft and it’s support. Which are the same very feeble and flexible light alloy castings supplied as standard. The ratio of shaft length to diameter greatly magnifies this problem.
The Bearings I have designed and produce have a shaft diameter of more than twice the standard, with the taper being an integral part of the shaft. (not a piece of brass pushed onto the spindle) This shaft is contained in a massive one piece brass housing. machined from solid bar. The sintered bearing is honed to a few microns to very precisely match the precision ground and polished nitrided shafts.
The shaft is supported on a carbide pad and special nitride ball contained in a sealed oil well at the bottom of the bearing.
Unfortunately the above procedures do cause the cost of the bearing to be a bit more expensive than the alternatives, however the sonics prove the worth of this option and perhaps it is worth saving one’s cash to obtain the best.
The reason being that for any rotating system the bearing is the most important component. Especially when the rotating mass diameter, to bearing diameter ratio is so very high.
In the high resolution image of your own bearing it is possible to see the score marks on the inside surface of the brass insert. These are most probably caused when the brass insert is reamed out to a standard hole size using a steel tool and would probably exist in all the bearings to a greater or lesser degree.
In short there is not much that can be done to positively improve the sonic quality of the existing bearing without a total redesign of the housing.
Stratmangler
09-01-2013, 12:51
Thinking about the michell clamp, if you press down on the clamp in order to press the record against the platter when you tighten it, surely the reaction to the force is to lift the spindle off the thrust plate?????? The extreme result could be that the spindle is not in contact with the thrust plate and that the circlip is rubbing against the underside of the brass collar???
I'd expect this not to be the case with a weight???
The platter is tight to the spindle, with or without the clamp.
The clamp does not pull the spindle upwards, and the circlip does not come ino contact with the brass collar.
The plastic thrust pad at the base of the bearing is probably Teflon.
As this wears the spindle will produce a dimple in the plastic, increasing surface contact and noise.
People who have Thorens decks (TD-150 etc) have a similar thrust pad and an upgrade for that is to replace the Teflon with a hardened polished metal shim, which looks very much like a shim off an overhead cam engine. Metal on metal, I know!
I tried this part on my Thorens and it did run quieter, so maybe that is a possibility on the Techie?
Rega use a steel ball bearing for the bottom of the spindle to run on. Isokinetic sell a beefed up spindle and bearing, plus a “Ruby Sapphire” replacement Ball, could this be used? And would it be an improvement?
I think a priority would be to get the WHOLE thing running in oil, top bush as well.
Not easy to achieve but if it could be, it would allow the use of thinner oil. My preference on the Thorens is 2/3rd sowing machine oil 1/3rd straight 20 grade without additives, flick the platter round without the belt on and it goes round and round and round – you get the picture.
Those are the options I can think of. The stock bearing was not designed for heavier platters and record clamps. If you use these, you may have to look at a bearing re-engineered from the ground up - in steps Mike New. :doh: :D
Not sure how I managed to miss the replies here!
One thing is for sure, the std bearing housing is extremely flimsy as compared to the Mike one. By dismantling, inspecting and cleaning the std item, I can easily see why its possible to make significant improvements. I think short term, I'll just keep it oiled with the origami oil but I know longer term it needs replacing with a proper one........ :)
jagdesign
21-01-2013, 22:33
Standard housing seems pretty stiff to me?
I'm sure by comparison the alloy is far more flexible than brass.
Clearly I don't means its made of jelly but having dropped it apart, its easy to see how the brass block machined housing on Mikes bearing is far stiffer and more substantial.
jagdesign
21-01-2013, 23:06
I agree that Mike's housing is probably stiffer, I'm just struggling to see how the standard housing isn't stiff enough in normal use. I really don't think it affords any sort of deflection which could affect the platter remaining perpendicular to the bearing's axis. The housing possibly affects any mechanical noise transmitting through the bearing shaft to the platter? I'm not sure.
I think the biggest problem is probably the thrust pad, and lack of oil bath.
Mike_New
03-02-2013, 06:14
Hi James,
I spent some time studying the design and engineering aspects of the bearing, please believe me when I say, "it aint much good for quality sound".
See the recently opened thread by Stephen.
chris@panteg
03-02-2013, 10:21
Hi Mike , with due respect it must at least be good enough or fit for purpose ?
You say and have always said and I quote ' a turntable stands or falls by the quality of its main bearing '
If all this is true and SL1200 bearing is piss poor ? Then I've wasted my time and money on the 1210 ? But I don't think I have , though I have arguably the cheapest mods available , I'm at that point where I don't think I should throw any more money at it ? If I want something better , maybe look at other decks .
Ok as promised, this is my take on DIY modifications for the Technics SL-1200 Bearing.
Hope you don’t mind me adding this to your Thread Ian? It seemed logical to keep it all together so people can locate it easily.
I started by looking at the bearing used in the sl-1300/1500/150 etc. illustrated below.
To see if this could be adapted.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Pics/sl_1300_bearing.jpg
There are three things I prefer about this bearing to the stock 1200 bearing:
1). It has a large round flange, so it would be possible to mount it with a gasket over the standard pocket in the top plate (pic2). You could then fill it with oil right up to the neck and fully lubricate the bush and thrust pad.
2). There is a collar around the top edge that creates a small well (pic1) that can hold a small quantity of oil, so you can overfill and have oil in reserve.
3). The plate supporting the thrust pad has three fixings rather than two (pic3).
The reason I didn’t develop this idea was the scarcity of this bearing compared to that of the 1200, in fact I found it difficult to find pictures of it. Also the support pillars for the motor (pic1) look to be shorter and don’t have a second step to support the 1200’s PCB. Without having one to examine more closely it is difficult to tell if there are any other differences. If anyone has one of these bearings lying around, they could check if it’s a possible donor along these lines.
Right, that leads me back to the stock offering for the 1200 - I bought a new one to modify. These mods can be tackled by anyone with reasonable DIY skills and only the most basic of equipment – small bench drill, belt or disc sander, electric drill with flexible drive is optional and hand tools including an M3 thread tap, I had an old mechanics set I bought from “Machine Mart” about 6 years ago. My workshop is my kitchen table and a “workmate” table/vice used in the yard – weather permitting. So don’t be put off, thinking you need fancy facilities, a lathe and milling machine, you don’t.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech/Tech_004.jpg
The tip of the bearing can be quite badly pitted, even from new, but this one wasn’t bad (pic top right), I gave it a polish anyway.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech/Tech_005.jpg
I don’t like the thick oil principle and lack of lubrication to the thrust bearing pad so decided to do something about it.
I started by creating some keying features in the casting and making a dam across the open face to hold in some filler/glue.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech/Tech_006.jpg
As can be seen above, I glued in a piece of 1” Aluminium bar, in which I had drilled a 12mm hole. I glued everything with Plastic Padding’s “Chemical Metal”. This stuff is strong, oil resistant and good up to 160 deg C. I now have a gasket face to help keep the oil in.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech/Tech_007.jpg
These shots show the M3 tapped holes that hold the thrust plate in place, you really need some form of drill press to make sure the holes are drilled perpendicular to the face. Also shown is the collar I added around the top of the bush bearing to hold a small qty of oil in reserve.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech/Tech_008.jpg
The plastic thrust pad will be replaced with one of these metal shims, can you spot the one I polished? LOL. These are for setting valve clearances on a motorcycle engine and are easily obtainable, dia. 7.5mm x 1.5mm thick. Using a steel shim in place of the plastic pad is an upgrade I am familiar with on Thorens bearings. They do run quieter this way but obviously have to be in an oil bath.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech/Tech_009.jpg
The shim is located in a pocket created by drilling a hole in a 1.2mm Brass sheet. This sheet is then glued to a 3mm Brass sheet with, you’ve got it, Chemical Metal. The sandwich was then drilled to take the four fixing screws and cut to the correct shape. I made a gasket from 0.4mm gasket paper and located the shim in the pocket with a spot of silicone instant gasket. If you don’t do this it tends to stick to the spindle when lifted, due to oil viscosity and ends up out of its location. You would have to do a strip down to relocate it every time so it’s worth making sure it stays put.
I didn’t want to glue the shim in permanently, as I don’t know what the wear rates will be. Experience with the Thorens suggests it will be much slower than for the plastic pad, still the sealant will allow you to change shims if needed. Also remember, the circlip that normally retains the spindle can not be fitted due to lack of access, so you will have to press down on the spindle with your thumb when removing the platter, if you want to keep it in place.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech/Tech_010.jpg
That’s the bearing completed and filled with 2/3rds “Singer” sowing machine oil and 1/3rd single grade SAE 20 motor oil. The old fashioned stuff (without detergent, anti foaming and dispersal additives) they use on classic cars/bikes. I did a lot of experimenting with oils on the Thorens bearing, proprietary brands and DIY mixes. If the oil is too thin it will spin really well, that is, fast and long but the sonics are not good, harsh and bright. Likewise, too thick and the sound can be dull and smeared. Until I did some tests of my own, if you’d told me the oil in the main bearing can make an audible difference I wouldn’t have believed it. When fitting the spindle don’t over fill it with oil. Apply only light pressure and let it slide in slowly, this may take several minutes. Too much force and the hydraulic pressure may defeat the gasket at the base and cause a leak so take your time. You can always fill the well at the top and let it work its way down over time if it is under filled.
Because I had a lot of the materials lying around off other projects I haven’t spent much putting this together. I’m using Chemical metal to modify my top plate for instance, but you can buy a tube from Halfords for less than a fiver, I suppose the stainless steel screws and gasket paper came to about £3.80 and the shims were £8 for a set of three. The Brass was £4.70 for a square of each thickness used, I had oil left over from the Thorens. If you had to buy everything from scratch it would cost you around £25, but typically with this type of project, you will have most of the materials left over when finished, as you use only small amounts of everything. The new bearing cost £26, but if yours is ok (Only housing, top bush and spindle required), you could do this mod for about the cost of a new one. If you screw it up you won’t be that much out of pocket, so give it a go. Obviously with this type of bearing cap, you could substitute the steel shim with the bearing material of your choice if you want to experiment. You could even use the stock plastic pad, just use thinner brass sheet for this (The piece with the hole in). If any of you are worried about the strength of the chemical metal, don’t be, with the grooves as keying features it is easily up to the job. You could probably stand on the platter and it wouldn’t give. (Not suggesting you try that) :D If you want peace of mind you could add side lugs to the cap and make use of the existing screw points to tie everything into the casting but it really isn’t necessary.
I found a neat trick for marking out the gasket, I drew it on the computer in Corel Draw then printed it onto the 0.4mm gasket paper on my inkjet printer, went through no problem.
For the full story on this and the rest of my build, see the Technics project on my website, this has a link below.
So how does it perform?
I will come back on this, I want to do a shoot out between the stock bearing and this one on my otherwise unmodified 1200 mkII. It will need a bit of running in, 45 RPM for 24 hrs will probably do the trick. Give me a few days to try some back and forth comparisons and I will report back.
That's really interesting. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on the performance. I'll digest and comment later when I can see your pics properly (on my phone at the moment) but that exactly what I had in mind when I started to look at this, just looks like a much better job than I would have made ;) nice idea with the thrust plate using those shims too :cheers:
Ken, that looks good and am looking forward to your findings- keep up the good work my man!:)
Thats mighty impressive Ken!
I've not doubt whatsoever that the hard thrust plate and oil bath allowing for the use of thinner oil will better the std bearing performance. I was thinking that getting the std bearing to behave like some more conventional bearing with oil baths and utilising a better (harder) thrust plate would be an improvement but what I had in my head was a bit more "heath robinson" than what you've got there.......bloody awesome!!!
:youtheman::clap::respect:
From a purely frictional point of view the modified bearing offers far less resistance, but only once run in, initially its times were worse than the standard bearing.
The run down times when switching the power off, were as follows (No record on platter and just a felt mat) Average of three readings.
Standard Bearing 33RPM = 14.6 sec 45RPM = 19.6 sec
Modified Initially 33RPM = 7.2 sec 45RPM = 11.5 sec
Modified Run In 33RPM = 18.6 sec 45RPM = 25.2 sec
The run in period was only 24 hrs, run at 45RPM, it may improve further.
I know from experience that thinner oil, eg 100% sowing machine oil will produce longer times but at the expense of the sound, you have to find the right viscosity for the bearing, sympathetic with its design and mounting to get the best acoustic results.
The strange thing was that although it ran really poorly at first it felt really free compared to the thick dragy feel to the standard bearing with its thick oil, just shows, the feel in your fingers can be deceptive.
So how does it sound?
I did four sessions, standard/modified/standard/modified playing the same four complete albums each time. Equipment as in the footer, Techie replaced the ProJect deck, but I still used the Goldring cartridge.
I will keep it brief, what hit me straight away was the increased warmth and detail of the mid range compared to the standard. Also the treble was not as harsh, being slightly sweeter. Bass is very slightly faster and tighter.
At the end of the last session I tried putting a pea size piece of Blu Tack under the bearing and tightening it down. When I took it out I had to peel the bearing off the base of the deck, boy did it stick. There is 2mm clearance under the bearing and the 10mm pea had spread to the size of a 10 pence piece. The effect of coupling the bottom of the bearing in this way was a gob smacking bass, without doubt the best I have ever achieved in any of my systems. It was tight fast and owe so deep, real grunt. The down side is that the mid range lost its lifelike feel, it had no bounce or rhythmic feel to it, being dull in comparison. So out it came. When I build the new plinth I will try this again, that bass is something to aim for, but I don’t want it at the expense of the mid range.
I think for the cost involved in the modification it’s a no brainer, with a significant improvement to the midrange. Tracy Chapman’s voice and guitar were so life like. To improve beyond this you would have to go straight to the Mike New Bearing at ten times the price.
Sounds extremely interesting!
Not sure i follow the bit about the blu tak. Where did you put it exactly? Cheers :)
Ken, instead of BluTack try a plug of Sorbothane ;)
Ian – You put a small piece of Blu Tack in the well that accepts the bearing. You tighten it down on to this, coupling the base of the bearing to the plinth. KAB sell wax for doing a similar job.
Dave – Never tried Sorbothane in that way, always used it for de-coupling, but will give it a go when my new plinth is ready. Have you used it in this way? What were the results?
Thanks to all for the encouragement and kind words on the project.
No I haven't Ken but I'm going to give it a go a little later ;)
Dingdong
21-02-2013, 12:02
You'd be better off with silicone or urethane than sorbathane. Just saying like.
I will try experimenting with them all, ya never know. I have some cork sheet knocking about which I will try too :cool:
Ian – You put a small piece of Blu Tack in the well that accepts the bearing. You tighten it down on to this, coupling the base of the bearing to the plinth. KAB sell wax for doing a similar job.
Dave – Never tried Sorbothane in that way, always used it for de-coupling, but will give it a go when my new plinth is ready. Have you used it in this way? What were the results?
Thanks to all for the encouragement and kind words on the project.
I'm being a bit thick I'm sure!
Are you saying blutak in the well on top of the thrust plate which then is compressed to full the gap between the bottom surface of the spindle and base of the well??
Dingdong
21-02-2013, 13:15
I think the idea is to fill the well up as much as possible to dampen down any vibration on the bottom of the bearing.
I guess the trick is to not use too much then otherwise you'd have the bearing resting on blutak instead of the thrust plate.
:D
I think we are talking about the well in the top plate under where the bearing sits ;)
Yeh, think we are confusing Wells – LOL
This is where you stick the Blu Tack. A pea size ball placed in the middle.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Pics/Bearing%20Well.jpg
Place the bearing on top of it and tighten down to squash the pea between the underside of the bearing and the plinth. It is easier on my modified bearing as it has a fully enclosed larger base area, but it can be done on the standard bearing.
:doh:AHHHH!!! All becomes clear!!!!!!
I did say I thought I was being a bit errrrr Blond!
Thank you :)
FWIW you may be interested in my alternative approach to this perceived problem - I like the results and think it improves the SQ but YMMV (or your knowledge may suggest other effects ;) ).
In the centre of bottom of the well (as agreed above) drill and tap a 6mm threaded hole. Take a suitable length of 6mm threaded steel rod and screw this upwards from underneath the chassis until it gently makes contact with the base of the bearing housing when that has been fastened back in position. Careful use of a file on the end of the bar will improve the contact area between bar end and bearing housing base.
Then take a 5cm diameter steel or aluminium bar a little shorter than the difference in height between the TT shelf on which it stands and the underside of the bearing housing and drill and tap a 6mm threaded hole in one end but stopping before penetrating the other end. Then screw this bar onto the threaded bar protruding from the bearing housing underside. Further 6mm nuts can be used to lock everything in the correct position such that the newly added 5cm diameter bar acts as a 5th (central) leg supporting the main weight of the TT with the other 4 (original) feet only serving to leve lup the TT.
In my case the TT shelf is a single piece of 12mm marble.
IMHO this has improved the SQ quite significantly, particularly tightening up the bass, but I would be interested to hear of others' opinion of the theory of this mod.
If no improved SQ is perceived the mod is easily removable to return (more or less) to the original state.
Dave.
Interesting DaveK - you are coupling the base of the bearing directly to the marble shelf. I think the theory is that vibrations in the bearing are damped through the mass of the shelf. Like most things results vary depending on execution but an easy thing to try.
Just out of curiosity, what feet do you have on your techie Dave?
Just out of curiosity, what feet do you have on your techie Dave?
Yes, sorry, I should have mentioned that. Another bit of lateral thinking or naive stupidity, depending on your PoV ;) .
I use 8cm (ish) diam. sorbothane hemispheres in the flat centre of which I drill a hole and glue (JB Weld) a length of threaded 6mm bar so that the length of bar above the surface is equal to the length of the exposed thread on the original feet.
Works for me :) .
you got any pics??? you definitely have my attention!!! ;)
you got any pics??? you definitely have my attention!!! ;)
Sorry, no pics ATM but I could take some I guess. How about a shot of the underneath showing the feet and the bearing support? I should perhaps have added that the end of the bearing support that rests on the marble shelf has a very small convex radius on it so that it is capable of tilting very very slightly, as opposed to it being flat and trying to take the whole weight of the TT.
Tried Blu Tack again under the bearing, but couldn't live with it.
I had some closed cell neoprene foam rubber, bit like wet suit material. It was 2.5mm thick and I have 2mm clearance under the bearing, so put a disk of 0.4 gasket paper in the well first then a disk of the foam rubber, making a total interference of 0.9mm and dropped the bearing on top and tightened it up.
Wow this works nearly as well as the blu Tack for the bass but without the bad effects on the mid range. I am going to live with this for a while and see if there are any vices, because it sounds really good from first listening. Just had McCartneys Red road speedway on and was really impressed, a very evenly balanced presentation, yet dynamic and capable of being subtle all at the same time. Really really impressed.
you got any pics??? you definitely have my attention!!! ;)
Herewith the promised pics. If anything is unclear, please ask.
http://s664.beta.photobucket.com/user/DaveAndSue/media/DSC00003.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
http://s664.beta.photobucket.com/user/DaveAndSue/media/DSC00002-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s664.beta.photobucket.com/user/DaveAndSue/media/DSC00001-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
Cheers,
Dave.
Thanks Dave......all is definitely clear.
I see a little job for myself on the horizon! :)
Thanks Dave......all is definitely clear.
I see a little job for myself on the horizon! :)
Hi Ian,
No probs, you're very welcome. All that I would ask in return is that post your findings regarding effects on SQ, warts and all, as it has been said (on here) that I do not have enough experience to hold a valid opinion. May well be true :lol: , let's see.
Cheers,
Dave.
Frankyc2003
27-02-2013, 22:45
Tried Blu Tack again under the bearing, but couldn't live with it.
I had some closed cell neoprene foam rubber, bit like wet suit material. It was 2.5mm thick and I have 2mm clearance under the bearing, so put a disk of 0.4 gasket paper in the well first then a disk of the foam rubber, making a total interference of 0.9mm and dropped the bearing on top and tightened it up.
Wow this works nearly as well as the blu Tack for the bass but without the bad effects on the mid range. I am going to live with this for a while and see if there are any vices, because it sounds really good from first listening. Just had McCartneys Red road speedway on and was really impressed, a very evenly balanced presentation, yet dynamic and capable of being subtle all at the same time. Really really impressed.
+1, I followed your advice but all I could find was a rubber O-Ring used to dampen 12ax7 type tubes... And guess what, it's great too.
It fitted really snuggly underneath the bearing housing. While screwing it back in place, it sort of squeezes the O-ring and I guess dampens and isolates the whole bearing (my very uneducated guess...)
Net results, thunderous bass, extended soundstage width, very clear cleaning up of the higher register too... And punchier dynamics as well...
Pretty good results for a 20p mod!
Thanks for the suggestion! Highly recommended for anyone with the standard bearing.
:cool:
Glad it worked out for you Francois.
Good to know it works on the standard bearing too. ;)
Stratmangler
02-03-2013, 00:08
Just done the mod with Blu-Tack, with similar results.
If I can remember to do it I will try an O ring, but the Blu-Tack sounds pretty good to me.
Nice one - thanks :cool:
Chris - Standard bearing has less mass at bottom and thrust plate is a bit flimsy compared to my modified version, so Blu Tack may well work on it, I will try it myself when I swap the bearings back. It may also be a system dependent thing, if its working for you that's all that matters. :D
Stratmangler
02-03-2013, 17:38
I picked up some O rings and fitted one underneath the bearing, and it works better than BluTack.
The BluTack did some odd things to the midrange.
It's been an interesting experiment, tinkering about with dampening the bottom plate of the bearing :)
Frankyc2003
02-03-2013, 18:45
Yes I agree blutak does some muffling on the midband. Rubber is the way to go!
;)
chris@panteg
04-03-2013, 08:51
I picked up some O rings and fitted one underneath the bearing, and it works better than BluTack.
The BluTack did some odd things to the midrange.
It's been an interesting experiment, tinkering about with dampening the bottom plate of the bearing :)
Worth doing Chris , the vantage bearing has a sandwich damping pad which fits very neatly in the recess in the chassis .
Just ordered some 1" aluminium bar and a couple of shims.
I'll add this to the list of little projects on the go!!! :)
I've also got some Audio Origami oil that J7 sent me which i'll use when its done. Where did we settle on the material for the bearing well? I guess blutak is not ideal. Anyone try anything else other than rubber O' rings?
I got good results with a sheet of Neoprene Rubber as per post #47.
Thanks Ken, Just ordered some to try :)
Ian, where did you order it from please?
Cheers
John
All from eBay John :)
Just searched for neoprene rubber. Ordered some 1mm thick to layer as required
I decided to see how the bearing mod was working out and stripped it down.
It's only had a few weeks use and as you can see this new shaft has considerable wear.
I had given it a light polish before fitting it, I don't think I will have removed any case hardening, if any was used. The end of this shaft just seems too soft for metal to metal contact. The oil I used may have been too thin, but I don't think it will have been a major factor.
DO NOT RUN THIS SHAFT ON A STEEL THRUST PLATE.
Note there was only a small amount of wear on the metal shim.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech/Tech_024.jpg
I cleaned up the shaft and replaced the metal shim with an original plastic item and increased the oil viscosity to straight SAE 20.
Ah crap!!!!
Just polished a valve shim for mine!
Fortunately I can fit the original baseplate to the modified bearing.....thanks for the heads up ;)
Ian - I took the original plastic pad out of the base plate by knocking the deformed locating tags of with a hammer and sharp chisel. I then mounted this into my brass base. At least everything is running in oil that way ;)
Thanks........
More by luck than judgment, I can fit the original base plate with some threebond (special elastomer used to seal horizontal engine cases in early 2 stroke engines)
It's now set in a vice while it goes off ;)
Looks like you reported back in the nik of time :D
TY
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/38659F8D-1EE0-48F0-A5D5-BFB9874F2E8B-2997-000001855B3811AA_zps19d55b7e.jpg
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/EBFB8797-C633-4174-AEA0-635716734321-2997-00000185600419B7_zps6851f815.jpg
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/5EEE1883-B59A-41C4-B67E-43DBDD167A7E-2997-0000018564C51A59_zps7290c0af.jpg
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/4BAE6288-53B1-4D80-8371-E2B88D51D09C-2997-0000018569911D4B_zpsd25ce269.jpg
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/752E898D-C47E-4F67-81F9-398A77D02305-2997-000001856FCE2DE6_zpsae8db82c.jpg
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Technics%20SL-1200/16B5E215-8433-4526-80F3-D0215869961E-2997-00000185749ABF5B_zps95b3c6c5.jpg
Thats looking good Ian.
Is that J B Weld you have used to glue the aluminium bar in place ?
It's chemical metal although I suspect JB weld will do a similar job.
I also used 1" aluminium bar and cut it to length. I drilled a 4mm hole in the centre to start with then I put a bolt through it so I could mount it in the chuck. The reason being, I wanted to taper the external of the bar to fit the bearing housing. With the drill on a slow speed I filed the taper (not really precision engineering but it worked well enough!!!) and just for the record, its a bad idea from a health and safety point of view too. ;)
Once the bar fitted into the bearing, I drilled the hole out to 10mm then used the chemical metal to glue the bar in place. The bar was clamped against the brass insert while it went off. I was very careful to ensure no compound found its way onto the bearing surface :)
Once it had dried I filed the bottom surface flush and flat.
I had a brass base plate ready and a coupe of valve shims which I opted not to use after your picture last night.
I used the original base plate for now with some rubber special gasket compound (threebond) to seal and clamped it while it went off.
I think I've missed a trick here though and I'll probably do the same as you and move the original thrust plate int the brass base. That way I can utilise 3 or 4 fixings for the plate ;)
I see, just a trick of the light making the chemical metal look dark in colour. :doh:
I am considering what other options are available as a thrust pad material.
Conrad Hoffman did some turntable thrust pad comparisons that can be found here: http://conradhoffman.com/Wear_pad_tests.xls
I am considering Bronze and PEEK and of course Brass as possibuilities for the spindle to run on. :scratch:
If you have a brass base plate, would you actually need a trust plate?
My sandwich base has a well to accept the shim of whatever material. To make sure the spindle and therefore platter runs at the correct height, I require a 1.5mm thick shim to be in place. Also being able to change a brass shim if it wears is easier than remaking the whole base every time. :eyebrows:
This is my Mk II bearing mod. 6mm dia PEEK thrust pad in solid brass end cap with pocket machined using a 7mm end mill cutter in a pillar drill. I retained the collar at the top which holds extra oil (Straight SAE 20).
Did away with the paper gasket for the base and used spray on gasket.
I also adopted Ian's simpler approach to gluing in the aluminium bar.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Project_Images/Tech/Tech_034.jpg
I have noticed oil seeping out from somewhere on my modified bearings. :scratch:
I found the problem, the "Chemical Metal" It does not form a perminant barier and after a time "Sweats oil". :eek:
I have changed to using "JB Weld" instead and this seems to do the trick.
Takes longer to dry but is stronger. ;)
I am a new member to the forum, this is my first post, apologies for its length.
I am reworking my Technics 1200 and phono pre amp on a strict budget so its DIY for everything
I bought my technics about 5 yrs ago, did a few recognised tweaks, used it for a few months then it sat idle. Pulled it out two months ago for this project
I found a lot posted on the net regarding how this deck can be tweaked up to match the best available, to those who think it is no more than the rugged DJ playbox it was designed for.
My experience with it, reading reports, and watching the snake oil dealers, made me think it was very easy to spend way beyond the decks worth and its mechanical limitations.
Is it better perhaps to just go and buy a good hi fi deck to start with?
Well I dont think so.
The Technics has been reworked such that I am getting a very good reproduction from it. I'm not claiming it is Super Fi but for the money Ive spent, its good.
What have I done so far, may be old hat to some of you, any advice appreciated
The transport.
Well documented,the biggest single issue is claimed to be the mains transformer being mounted under the platter. Despite being mounted on rubber and having a good mu metal shield, 50 hz vibration was being transferred to the deck and the field from the transformer adversely affecting the pick up, paricularly moving coil. Its well documented how to remove the transformer and feed rectified DC into the deck electronics. No need to follow the snake oil vendors of expensive power supplies, bottom line, the original transformer will do but a simple toroidial unit can be built for not a lot. I use an external 18v Transformer with an LT3081 regulator mounted where the old transformer was.
I note platter main bearing replacements are being sold for up to £400+ not for me.
My whole deck cost me £150.
The arm
This often gets slated, primarily by those selling alternatives.
I took a leaf from the americans and made a silicon fluid damper for the arm assy. The difficult part was getting the correct grade of silicon fluid. Its the thickest fluid Ive ever come across.
I made an underslung counter weight
I fitted heatshrink sleeving over the arm to help damping.
Had thought of filling the arm with expanding foam but am hesitant at the moment since the foam may force the 4 PU wires out towards the arm casing and increase the capacitance to ground in an area where I want to keep capacitance at a minimum
Next is one of the most significant mods re SQ Ive done.
Remove the rubber washer that fits behind the headshell replace it with a copper washer. 12 to 12.5mm OD 8.2mm ID with a slot filled in it to allow it to fit over the pin on the technics headshell. Anneal this washer before fitting to soften the copper ( heat to red heat on the gas, allow to cool, wash with a brillo pad till its back to bright copper). Recheck stylus overhang is 52mm
I hit on this one when trying to get consistent azimuth alignment when changing heads. I realised the ( relatively) poor fit between the male headshell and female arm and poor tolerance guidepin slot. The rubber washer would allow the headshell to move ( we're talking microns ?)* within the arm socket, exactly what one doesnt want to happen. The copper washer allows a clamping effect to take place between the headshell and arm contact face making the shell a more integral part of the arm.
An aluminium washer may do, I had copper to hand.
Thats my theory for something that does work in practice for me.
The platter.
Fitted a silicone type non slip rubber mat under the Technics Rubber matt. Got this from the local autoshop its sold as a non slip matt for car, caravan or kitchen use.* Open weave, get a good thick variety about 3mm.
I made a Puck to fit over the record to help reduce record vibration. Fits onto the turntable spindle about 90mm dia and 11mm thick.
The cable
Removed the Technics phono cable and fitted an OFC type with a double outer screen or single screen with foil .
One should take heed of the capacitance your PU* is looking for and equate this with the input capacitance of the phono pre when selecting cable type. I have yet to rewire the arm with silver wire its next on my list. I'm waiting till I finalise my Phono Pre as it may be possible to make it part of the Technics and wire directly to the amp input. This will have an external power supply housed in the same box as the technics, with regulators in the Pre.
Alignment
I use an old version of Cool Edit Pro (1.2a) for transferring to PC. This has a level meter which goes to beyond -100 db, way below the average-50db on most, like my copy of Audacity. You can see whats happening in the critical area between -60 and -90 db ( pk to Pk) to set up e.g. position of the phono amp* and cables re hum sources (mains cables etc) and monitor system noise.
Record and then playback alignment signals till you can see you have them optimised. I dont care how good your ears are seeing is believing.
I did find the various arm alignment graphs of little use. Setting the needle overhang to precisely the 52mm as in the Technics spec consistently gives me best results.
I'm using a Goldring 1012 set to 1.75 gms.
I was given a 1042 shell that requires a new stylus and given the result of the last few weeks work I may buy one - even if its half of the cost of the cash spent so far to complete project – but will wait till I get some opinions as to the best cartidge to use.
The main bearing.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?22788-Can-you-improve-the-stock-techie-bearing/page7&highlight=Technics+1200+bearing
I found this thread which motivated me. Particular thanks to Qwin
I researched as much as I could on the net re bearings noting those on sale vary from £400 down to £195. No one gave any detailed measurements on how much the LF noise and rumble was reduced by their bearing.
I bought a used bearing on Ebay and removed my own bearing to do comparisons between units that had been in service. I did my checks and concluded that one of the weak links was the baseplate.
One had a slight bend in it indicating abuse at some time in its life, in the other the black plastic bearing support was not flat reference to the plate. If this support bearing is not precisely at right angles to the bearing shaft side forces come into play. The rigidity of the whole assembly I didnt like.
I worked out two alternative designs that I thought would improve both of the above.
One a complete assembly the other a rework of an existing bearing.
I have made the first version of the rework and fitted it to my deck. I tried to do some before and after rumble measurement using my cartride tracking on the inside final grooves of a record.
I dont claim that these are “ reference” measurements only indicators. I used my Pre output into my PC ( linear PSU) using Arta software to measure the output on its spectrum analyser. Looking primarily at 20 – 500Hz there was a clear difference. The new bearing was better.
Sonically I hear more detail and improved bass.
I need some sort of test record with a continuous unmodulated groove—help please?
I used what I think is a different material for the support bearing ,Teflon instead of what Technics used. I lubricated the shaft and support bearing with Silicon not oil.
I do not know how Teflon will perform re wear, runing with the metal ball shaft end in a silicon filled bath.
Anyone know what material Technics use for the support bearing?
Anyone used Silicon instead of the many oil mixture out there?
Maybe we are going overboard re friction and lubricants in a servo based drive system ?
Ill post a photo as soon as Ive worked out how to do it. My costs for materials was under £30 and a few hours work on the Lathe and Mill. I did have to make a special jig to hold the Technics bearing- that took time.
I'll post a photo as soon as Ive worked out how to do it.
I should have mentioned my other hobby is building Live Steam Locos from scratch so I have a good workshop and am used to working to tolerances of less than 1 thou. Not good enough for the shaft and its bearing but OK for the rest. The factory that make Linn bearings is not far from me- maybe they'll sell me some !
I still have one minor issue. The measured noise through the system with the PU live and motor runing or stopped is 2 db* worse with the PU over the Platter centre than it is at the platter circumference so there is still some unwanted signal being induced into the PU from the electronics. Perhaps a mu metal screen somewhere.
One thing Ive found in building this system so is that every db counts. - The other is that setting up a turntable is a greater thief of time than my computer.
Ian
Two photos one shows a almost front view (unit is standing on a green plastic tube)
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2317.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2317.jpg.html)
The base http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2319.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2319.jpg.html)
Good work Ian, I don't have an SL1200 but that bearing looks substantial and well thought out. Like you I discovered the use of a copper washer on detachable head shells to have a sonic benefit, been using them for a few years now. Oh and welcome to the forum, don't forget to say 'hi' in the new member forum before the mod team descend on you! :)
Nice work Ian.
Teflon is too soft for the thrust pad as is Nylon.
Somewhere back in the thread I mention and give a link to a test that someone did on various materials, spinning in a lath and applying a fixed force from the tail stock using a ball bearing for a given time and measuring the wear on both ball and bearing material.
PEEK came out high on the list and I think was the best thermo plastic tested which is what I used. Lignum Vitae (a very hard wood) came out top and I think it was oil impregneted for the test but could be run in an oil bath.
If I had access to a lathe I would have done something similar to what you did.
When it comes to oil you don't want to go too thin as in my opinion it sounds worse. I tried various combinations and ended up going back to SAE 20 single grade without any corrosive additives and detergents as used on vintage cars. When the oil is this thick the spindle seems to couple better with the bearing and therefor the plinth. That's my reasoning on what is causing it but I'm guessing, all I can say is it sounds better to me.
Not sure what the original thrust bearing was made of, never seen it mentioned, it looks similar to PEEK though and could be along those lines.
Hi Ian,
Excellent work. You have a private message! :)
Marco.
Thanks Ken,
I will search out some PEEK plastic, buying a small piece will be the problem, maybe a sample.
Using a lath tailstock wouldnt replicate the fact my Teflon is running in Silicon and it would be difficult to exert a pressure equivalent to the weight of the platter ?
How true was the lathe is also a variable.
My whole bearing is in a silicon bath. There is a small vent/ filler hole at the top of the shaft bearing between the bearing outer and aluminium you cant see in the photo.
I note your point re oil viscosity. I can play with a silicon mix.
The electronic servo will probably have been designed to work at a specific load and the time constant of the feedback loop set accordingly.
Ian
The platter.
Fitted a silicone type non slip rubber mat under the Technics Rubber matt. Got this from the local autoshop its sold as a non slip matt for car, caravan or kitchen use.* Open weave, get a good thick variety about 3mm.
I made a Puck to fit over the record to help reduce record vibration. Fits onto the turntable spindle about 90mm dia and 11mm thick.
Nice work Ian!!
http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Andrei_nz/Stripping2_zpsde8e5d66.jpg (http://s1279.photobucket.com/user/Andrei_nz/media/Stripping2_zpsde8e5d66.jpg.html)
You can see from this that the rubber damping material is not properly applied. I have stripped three and it is always the same. To stop your platter ringing you will need a expensive replacement platter or replace this rubber underlay.
I do not know how Teflon will perform re wear, runing with the metal ball shaft end in a silicon filled bath.
Anyone know what material Technics use for the support bearing?
Anyone used Silicon instead of the many oil mixture out there?
Ian
What could the benefit be in a silicon bath?
I do not know what the material is for that little black thrustpad. However teflon seems a good idea - it would be slippery. It is not at all difficult to remove the bearing. So if a silicon thrustpad lasted a couple of hundred hours that would make it worthwhile. I guess a small sheet of teflon could sit over the existing thrustpad. It would not really matter if the platter was raised a mm or two.
Andrei - Teflon is way too soft it has been tried and wears out quickly. It is high temperature and slippery, has a friction coificient of wet ice on wet ice but soft so the high force on the spindle end soon creates a depresion in it.
EDIT:Raising the platter raises the magnet and detection hub attached to it that require reasonably precise vertical alignment with the coils etc in the motor so you have to be carefull about raising it. On my third Techie using a different platter and bearing I kept all the motor parts to within +/- 0.2mm of their original vertical locations.
Ian - I got my PEEK off the E that is Bay. supplies of various diameters in 300mm lengths, just search for it.
Traced this.
Designed for bearings
http://www.theplasticshop.co.uk/peek-hpv-sheet-rod-3297-0.html
Have emailed them asking for a sample
Ian
Sounds Ideal from their description.
Spectral Morn
24-01-2015, 06:06
Two photos one shows a almost front view (unit is standing on a green plastic tube)
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2317.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2317.jpg.html)
The base
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2319.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2319.jpg.html)
I can see an opportunity to offer tweaking technics bearings for folks if you feel so inclined Ian, based on your images.
Welcome to AoS.
Regards Neil
Thanks Neil
I would be pleased to help others improve their gear either by them doing it themselves if they have access to a lathe or some form of (very) easily assembled DIY kit.
It is perhaps something we can look at if there is an interest from forum members and it falls within forum rules.
Firstly we have to finalise the material we use for the support bearing and whether we need to fill the whole bearing with lubricant or just the support bearing bath.
One would also want other members to evaluate its use in the real world.
As you can see from above I am waiting on a response from a PEEK plastics supplier. The material he has seems to fit the bill but I'm unclear as to whether I can get it in 1mm or max 2mm sheet . Turning 1 mm slices from round bar with a dead smooth face finish and truly parallel faces may be a challenge
I need to make a unit I can send to out to a volunteer evaluator and might soon be asking if anyone has an "old " technics bearing we could use as a donor.
Spectral Morn
25-01-2015, 01:53
Thanks Neil
I would be pleased to help others improve their gear either by them doing it themselves if they have access to a lathe or some form of (very) easily assembled DIY kit.
It is perhaps something we can look at if there is an interest from forum members and it falls within forum rules.
Firstly we have to finalise the material we use for the support bearing and whether we need to fill the whole bearing with lubricant or just the support bearing bath.
One would also want other members to evaluate its use in the real world.
As you can see from above I am waiting on a response from a PEEK plastics supplier. The material he has seems to fit the bill but I'm unclear as to whether I can get it in 1mm or max 2mm sheet . Turning 1 mm slices from round bar with a dead smooth face finish and truly parallel faces may be a challenge
I need to make a unit I can send to out to a volunteer evaluator and might soon be asking if anyone has an "old " technics bearing we could use as a donor.
Well I have a bearing, that could be upgraded. I have no lathe and certainly would be reluctant to have ago but happy to send it to you for the mod + any remuneration required.
Regards Neil
dimkasta
25-01-2015, 20:19
I m too tired to carefully read the entire thread.
I have noticed some ideas for teflon though. After a few months of using it, I can say that while it makes a very distinct improvement on how freely the turntable turns (measured arbitrarily in seconds of free spinning without power), after a while the teflon is slowly dented by friction, increasing the area of contact and reducing its effectiveness.
Dimaska
Many Thanks,
I note the technics black "Plastic" end bearings I have removed show dents in the material.
I am running the teflon bearing in a silicon fluid bath so Ill see what happens after a few months use.
I have been offered a small piece of Torlon from a very kind member so i'll build a second bearing with it as the bearing material
Neil
I'll drop you a PM
I have worked in engineering plastics for 20+ years and still do, peek is available in any thickness needed in sheet and rod form. I use it daily to get parts made.
I am not interested in getting involved to make a sale so if parts are required in peek I can get them made at cost for Ian or any others interested.
Torlon is not as good as peek for this application , teflon/ptfe has no wear resistance even though it has the lowest friction rating of any known substance, you can add other materials to PTFE to improve wearability and again the material is available in rod or sheet form.
I have a spare vantage bearing to donate to the project.
Have been away for a week and back onstream for a few days.
Continuing to do my research.
I find it interesting to note that very very few (if any) of the suppliers of goodies for these decks provide any measurements to back up their improved performance claims. Some of the reports on performance gains are so good it makes one wonder who really wrote them.
I have rebuilt a second bearing, the one I removed from my own deck.
Have spoken to a few Plastics Suppliers/Manufacturers support staff about the correct type of plastic to use. The bearing fitted to my deck at the moment uses Teflon, the second is fitted with Ertalyte and a member has kindly sent me a piece of Torlon.
The arguements re wear are noted but I am running my bearing fully immersed in a lubricant and this puts a slightly different perspective on the wear issue.
I am trying to establish a better way of measuring any unwanted vertical movement of the platter when rotating and looking for a reasonably long unmodulated track on disc
anyone help?
Has anyone done any work on the vertical movement induced by the motor itself - this must be there and is probably dampened slightly by a heavier platter. I must look at the servo itself and try and determine the frequency band any induced movement would be in.
Sounds like Im talking myself into getting a deck to use as a bench test unit probably a bit OTT at the moment. Im sure someone will already have looked at the servo issues. Just got to find their comments.
I want to experiment with different lubricants as I believe this may be more important than the precise type of plastic used on the bearing thrust plate.
Given a servo controlled motor the reduction in rotational friction is not my top priority but using the fluid to assist damping vertical shaft movement may be the way to go. I can accomodate this in my reworked bearing.
I am awaiting alternative fluids and a stock of Brass before proceeding further.
One member has already been in contact prepared to do some evaluation on a reworked bearing so by mid march we should have an unbiased second opinion.
Will report back as soon as I can.
Mike_New
09-02-2015, 02:12
Continuing to do my research.
"I find it interesting to note that very very few (if any) of the suppliers of goodies for these decks provide any measurements to back up their improved performance claims. Some of the reports on performance gains are so good it makes one wonder who really wrote them."
Ian old chap,
If you may care to bother to read through the over 110 pages of observations, comments and measurements on the "Mike new Bearing" thread, and about three or four other relavent threads on this forum (and elsewhere). You may conclude that the people who were making these observations "wrote them"
As the main single person who has probably done more for the developement of sensible and valid update options for the venerable SL1200 I find your seemingly uninformed observations somewhat puzzeling. As has been said so often in the threads mentioned, it is difficult nia impossible to catogorically state a set of meaningful figures over a range of conditions as it is I believe with any audio equipment.
Your attempts which follow many before you; to improve the basic bearing are laudible, if somewhat fruitless.
You see the basic problem with the "bearing" is not the pivot point that the shaft sits on but the rigidity of the actual bearing housing.
The shaft could sit/rotate on the top of Tower Bridge for all the bloody good it would do if the constraining bearing housing were not suficiently rigid and correctly enclosed to a high precision fit.
The pointless "experimenting" with different lubricants just boggles my mind. All they do is to help fill in the gap between the shaft and the bearing support.
Please understand that any movement of the platter in the vertical direction will be induced by the translation of the lateral rocking movement in the bearing to a vertical movement in the platter, such movement will be proportional to the radial distance as difined by basic trigonometry. You can do some sums on this if you wish to further your research.
Concernig the motor if you have ever investigated offering up the fero magnetic rotor to the stator coil assembly using a dummy platter centre-part and taper boss you will find that the radial magnetic field of the stator is such that it tends to pull the stator down onto the coils and consequently the bearing. This is clearly demonstrated when carefully placing a platter onto the spindle taper.
No amount of accoutical energy is going to cause the platter to move in the axial vertical direction.
Ian, old chap
Mike,
Thanks for your comment.
There is no need to address me as old chap , Ian is just fine.
Its nice to know my attempts to improve the basic bearing are laudible and will be somewhat fruitless.
It is very obvious to anyone with an engineering background that one of the issues with the bearing is its rigidity and I have addressed that.
I am also aware that one of the effects of the magnetic field is to pull the stator downwards and that the acoustical energy we are dealing with is unlikely to move the platter in the vertical direction.
The object of my excercise is to improve my Technics bearing within a limited budget and am very confident that it will be achieved.
keiron99
10-02-2015, 11:35
As has been said so often in the threads mentioned, it is difficult nia impossible to catogorically state a set of meaningful figures over a range of conditions as it is I believe with any audio equipment.
Is "rumble" an issue that upgraded bearings seeks to improve? This would be easily quantified wouldn't it?
Rumble is an issue that upgraded bearings should improve.
It is measurable -- In my humble experience everything in audio is measureable by one means or another-- designers dont just sit changing components and listening all day as some seem to think.
I have devised my way to measure "rumble" and I can see the improvement my "Laudable and fruitless attempts" at modding a bearing are giving over a given frequency range. I would like to improve this thus my seeking a disc with a large section of unmodulated track. We used to have one where I worked but I cant seem to find one today.
Currently running my second bearing with the Ertalyte thrust bearing. Results are identical to the Teflon pad.
I'm looking at the cost of a possible DIY excercise to build a few from new or donor technics bearings if we have enough interest, encouraging figures coming in well below what we see in the marketplace today.
keiron99
11-02-2015, 12:29
I am trying to establish a better way of measuring any unwanted vertical movement of the platter when rotating and looking for a reasonably long unmodulated track on disc
anyone help?
I'm not even sure I know what "unmodulated" means :mental: but maybe such a track is available on a test record like the HiFi News one?
Apols for the techspeak , I mean just a cut track with no sound. Used to use them years ago for checking rumble and noise on decks used in pro applications.
Ideally you want this across a whole disc so measurements can be taken across the whole platter area.
Ill check out the Hi Fi news disc
rmsshipbroker
16-02-2015, 23:43
I would like to improve this thus my seeking a disc with a large section of unmodulated track.
What about lead out grooves at the end of side?
They are unmodulated and go on.....and on....and on....:)
Excellent work on the bearing.
I look forward to reading more about your mods.
Edit: Sorry just seen your comment about needing it across the whole width, doh.
I think it's time I had some kip....
Have been away for the last 3 weeks but now back on stream.
I will shortly have a modded bearing available for anyone who wants to evaluate it. This will use Ertalyte as a thrust bearing and be capable of running in oil or silicon fluid as ones preference.
I'm currently using a low CST Silicon (CST is similar to SAE rating used for oil). As guide I'm using 50CST in my bearing and the silicon fluid used in my arm damper is 60,000CST ( very very thick). I will be getting some 250 and 350 CST fluid to do comparison tests.
Looking at the cost of producing the bits and modding a donor bearing, for a small batch of 5 or 6 bearings. Im certain these can be made for below one quarter of the price of the top end bearings in the marketplace.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with, Ian :)
Marco.
Thanks Maro
Have been busy.
1 sample unit finished and 5 assemblies almost complete ready to fit to Donor bearings. Will slice some Peek and Torlon tomorrow and fit each to my protype to evaluate if there is any difference ( I would think not as their hardness rating is similar) Still onstream to come in at less than a quarter of the expensive bearing out there.
I have drawings almost complete and when I have photos of the machining of the Technics donor bearing I'll move this to the DIY section
Ian
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2330.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2330.jpg.html)
This is looking very promising Ian. I would certainly be interested in obtaining one.
This is just the thing we need now that MCRU have pulled out of selling MN bearings, and Vantage Audio have gone tits up. Of course Mike New should be supported, if you have the cash to buy one of his superb bearings (and will be), but Ian’s bearings offer an alternative, at a very affordable price, and help keep the modded Technics alive!
I would therefore ask all Technics T/T owing members to support Ian’s venture, as his bearing is yet another ‘AoS special’ in the making, which epitomises what our community is all about :cool:
Marco.
Thanks Andrei
I need someone on the forum to do an evaluation to ensure the improvement gained is in line with what I'm finding and have measured.
As soon as this is given the green light Ill put full details as to how I built them in the DIY section.
For those who dont have, or have access to, the tools needed I will be prepared to make a small batch.
This would be based on one supplying a Donor Technics bearing. For those overseas I'm sure we can arrange for a new bearing here in the UK at cost or one can buy on Ebay and have it delivered to me.
Im very keen to keep the cost as low as possible ie cover materials and overheads.
I'll keep you posted as to progress
Ian
Thanks Andrei
I need someone on the forum to do an evaluation to ensure the improvement gained is in line with what I'm finding and have measured.
Ian
I would be happy to do an evaluation. Trouble is, I am in the antipodes. Will PM.
Competition is always a good thing, and your engineering looks sound Ian.
It's not always, unfortunately, always welcomed.
@ MikeNew: MCRU ain't doing my server anymore either, at least not built by me.
Interesting what a little digging turns up...
Have had experience in the past with designing bits and others trying to ridicule ones efforts, (already happened on here, much quicker than I thought).
The best way to counter is to make sure your design is sound and offers good value, be very transparent with the costs and open with the concept.
I cannot stand seeing people being ripped off by people just out to make a quick buck. It seems to be rife in the Hi Fi world.
Hi Ian
On my similar modified bearing, I found the best sound was not with the thinnest lubricant. The thin oil gave a long run down time when power was disconected and spun faster when flicked round by hand, but thicker oil seemed to couple better and give a more satisfying sound. Maybe it damped out noise better, who knows but it was my preference after various types were tried (straight SAE 20). So the thicker Silicon oil you are proposing might work well.
I added a collar on mine at the top so you could fill it with oil and prevent the top bush drying out if the oil level dropped.
My present inverted bearing borrowed from another deck runs on Castrol LM Grease and is even better.
Good luck with it, coming along nicely
My present inverted bearing borrowed from another deck runs on Castrol LM Grease and is even better.
Interesting Ken, what bearing is it? My KD-990 uses an LM grease as standard...
Its an Acrylic platter with built in bush/ceramic thrust off a ProJect RPM 9.
The spindle is mounted to a sturdy block and bolts into the deck and you lower the platter on to that.
It all had to be modified to suit the Technics motor but not as difficult as you might think.
Ken, have tried some very thick silicon but the servo didnt like it. I need more time to experiment with oils/silicons.
You cant see on my Photo, there is a small 2.5mm chamber on the top of the bearing stalk which leads to a 1.4mm hole which runs down to the base. This vent can be used to top up the oil with the bearing shaft in position so in theory the whole shaft can be run in lubricant.
Your idea of a reasonably sized chamber would allow a visible resevoir. I will look at doing that to my own bearing.
Im looking for some 1 to 1.5mm thick PEEK sheet if anyone has any suggestions
Ian
Thanks Maro
Have been busy.
1 sample unit finished and 5 assemblies almost complete ready to fit to Donor bearings. Will slice some Peek and Torlon tomorrow and fit each to my protype to evaluate if there is any difference ( I would think not as their hardness rating is similar) Still onstream to come in at less than a quarter of the expensive bearing out there.
I have drawings almost complete and when I have photos of the machining of the Technics donor bearing I'll move this to the DIY section
Ian
No problem, Ian. When you start a new thread there, I’ll move all the relevant stuff here into it.
Btw, can you do me a favour? Let’s just be positive about YOUR new bearing design and not have any more posts of this ilk:
Have had experience in the past with designing bits and others trying to ridicule ones efforts, (already happened on here, much quicker than I thought).
The best way to counter is to make sure your design is sound and offers good value, be very transparent with the costs and open with the concept.
I cannot stand seeing people being ripped off by people just out to make a quick buck. It seems to be rife in the Hi Fi world.
I can’t even remember what it is you’re referring to, and don’t want to either.
Therefore, let’s just put whatever disputes you’ve had with others about this project behind you and move on. I can assure you that from now on you’ll get nothing but support, if you’re fair and square with people (as I’m sure you will be), and if that’s the case, others will treat you the same, and the quality of your design will speak for itself.
Let’s leave it at that now and concentrate on moving the design of your bearing forward and keeping the modified Technics alive - cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Ian
I have sent you a new stock bearing. You should have it in the next day or two.
Hi Ian
On my similar modified bearing, I found the best sound was not with the thinnest lubricant. The thin oil gave a long run down time when power was disconected and spun faster when flicked round by hand, but thicker oil seemed to couple better and give a more satisfying sound. Maybe it damped out noise better, who knows but it was my preference after various types were tried (straight SAE 20). So the thicker Silicon oil you are proposing might work well.
I added a collar on mine at the top so you could fill it with oil and prevent the top bush drying out if the oil level dropped.
My present inverted bearing borrowed from another deck runs on Castrol LM Grease and is even better.
Good luck with it, coming along nicely
Agree with your findings , mixed some thick and thin silicon to get a thicker bearing fill.
I have some 350 CST on order.
Have also sourced some 1mm thick thrust bearing material.
Peek is available from the States at a price
PA66 (nylon66), it has the same hardness and Ball indentation hardness as the 2mm Ertalyte Im using but the reduced thickness gives me more tolerance in the bearing construction.
Having just fitted a Vantage bearing which I picked up from seller here, I'm following this thread with particular interest.
I have an older spare bearing here if that might be suitable for modding and I'd be happy to undertake a comparison.
RB
Would be delighted to accept your offer. I'm keen to get a few independant comparisons before going much further.
I'll drop you my contact details via PM (sent)
Hi Ian
I would have thought Nylon 66 was way to soft for the thrust Pad. Others have tried and it wasn't up to the job.
PEEK is a very good material for this purpose and is what I put in my modified bearing. It has good compression and wear characteristics.
I used rod to make the shim. I squared/polished the end of the rod on a fine linishing belt, then cut a sliver off the end, a bit thicker than required. I then squared off the end of the rod again and stuck the polished side of the shim to the end of the rod with double sided tape. I then put it on the linisher to square of the exposed end of the shim and get it down to the right thickness. You can only apply it to the linisher in short bursts or the heat melts the adhesive tape and the shim falls off the end of the rod. That may or may not be of use to you, not very engineering but it got the job done for me and the shim was a consistant thickness, a bit of rubbing on 1500 grit on a surface plate and it mesured up well.
Thanks Ken
I have some PEEK and Torlon rod, so far, trying to get accurate 1mm slices with perfectly parallel and smooth sides has proved difficult.
I will try a using slitting saw in my milling machine to morrow and see if I can crack it.
Would be delighted to accept your offer. I'm keen to get a few independant comparisons before going much further.
I'll drop you my contact details via PM (sent)
Thanks, replied.
Managed, after much trial and error, to slice Torlon and PEEK into accurate 1mm to 2mm slices with slitting saw on my Hor Mill.
Torlon was the easiest to machine.
The 3 plastics I have, Ertalyte, PEEK and Torlon have Rockwell Shore D hardness rating of M96, M99 and M106 respectively
Ertalyte is in 2mm sheet form the other two have to be machined from Rod.
Torlon looks like the best but perhaps the most expensive ( I am waiting on a quote for hopefully some offcuts)
Peek and Ertalyte are both readily obtainable with PEEK offcuts available on Ebay.
Ian
I have sent you a new stock bearing. You should have it in the next day or two.
Modified bearing winging its way to you. Posted this morning
Ian
Progressing positively.
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2339.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2339.jpg.html)
If you have a Lathe this can be made for about £35
For those who don't -
I am prepared to make a batch of 5 for around £85.
Provide a donor bearing new or used.
The unit can accept Oil or any other lubricant to the users choice.
Measurements show at least a 6db reduction in Low Frequency noise - halfing the rumble from the existing bearing.
I have a unit available for evaluation by any forum member wanting to evaluate .
Ian
Looking good, Ian! I think you’re onto something very worthwhile here, mate :)
Marco.
Progressing positively.
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2339.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2339.jpg.html)
If you have a Lathe this can be made for about £35
For those who don't -
I am prepared to make a batch of 5 for around £85.
Provide a donor bearing new or used.
The unit can accept Oil or any other lubricant to the users choice.
Measurements show at least a 6db reduction in Low Frequency noise - halfing the rumble from the existing bearing.
I have a unit available for evaluation by any forum member wanting to evaluate .
Ian
New bearings cost <£30. This is certainly worth a go because the shaft / thrustpad pad is one of the two critical points where the rubber meets the road (the other being the stylus / vinyl!)
Could you explain the photo a bit more. It is easy to see envisage the two large brass parts and the four screws. I'm guessing the smaller brass ring will fit inside and help place the black part. And is that black part the peek, which will effectively be the new thrustpad?
keiron99
14-03-2015, 10:04
Ian, can you please explain to a complete numpty, like me, exactly what it is that you are doing? What original parts are you upgrading, replacing? (Perhaps a big red arrow pointing to those bits would help!)
I am interested by the way. Just to be clear - I'd take out the bearing from mine, send it to you, you would return it and I'd simply drop it in? Can you clarify the price for that, for just one?
Andrei, Kieron
I need to get some more photos to give you a full explanation. I will do my best to get it done tonight.
Kieron
yes you would send me your bearing or a new bearing and I will mod it.
I am not a trader or dealer of any description just a Hi Fi enthusiast like most on this forum. My other hobby is building Live Steam locos so I have the equipment and now I am retired more time to do Electronic and Mechanical Engineering.
I am looking at £85 given a donor bearing plus postal costs. This covers my costs.
Bear in mind I have a modified bearing here I can post to anyone prepared to do an evaluation. I need feedback.
Ian
keiron99
15-03-2015, 11:54
Your attempts which follow many before you; to improve the basic bearing are laudible, if somewhat fruitless.
Measurements show at least a 6db reduction in Low Frequency noise - halfing the rumble from the existing bearing.
I'm not trying to set up a conflict here (honestly!) but surely Ian's efforts are demonstrably proven to be anything but fruitless?
The overview I promised
My approach to tweaking my Technics was driven by wanting an improvement in my system but not at the cost of other bearings currently in the market place.
I was encouraged by the work done by Qwin and others earlier in the thread.
When one looks at the stock bearing it has some obvious weaknesses in its design , but it was built to a price, and I have yet to read of a single technics bearing failing in use.
Some of these have been abused to the nth degree in Disco use, probably never serviced in their life.
Wow and Flutter are well controlled by the combination of the actual rotating bearing parts and the robust servo. One asks why fiddle with that if it aint broke ?
The one issue where improvement looked like it could easily be obtained was “rumble” i.e low frequency noise caused by unwanted vertical movement in the shaft which as we all know results in unwanted outputs from the cartridge.
I concentrated on improving the bearing rigidity and the accuracy of the angle between the bearing rotating shaft and its supporting thrust bearing surface. The Technics shaft support for the trust bearing is a 1.6mm plate fixed on only two points 33mm apart to an unmachined casting that only extends round half the bearing. To add to the issues the support plate is punched from sheet metal with a half shear to hold the thrust bearing. I have yet to find one that is flat.
To address the rigidity issues with the top section of the bearing between the shaft and chassis fixing points. I remove the Technics casting from the bottom of the bearing and fit a complete new brass circular body with a wall thickness of 10 mm.
To address the issue with the support plate I remade this to fit into the body and accurately hold the thrust material. The support points are doubled to 4 at 20mm apart and I built the new plate such that its strength within its central internal 10mm circumference is further supported. The whole assembly is Oil tight.
The bearing can be filled easily by removing the shaft or using a syringe via the vent hole that runs from the top of the bearing where the shaft appears , down into the oil tub. Lubricant used is up to the user. I am currently using silicon.
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2344.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2344.jpg.html)
This shows the parts removed from the standard bearing
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2333.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2333.jpg.html)
Technics bearing being prepared
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2336.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2336.jpg.html)
Body fitted to the technics
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2342.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2342.jpg.html)
Base with locating rim and thrust bearing support ring ( prototype so rough turning finish)
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/IMG_2343.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/IMG_2343.jpg.html)
Complete base showing position of thrust bearing and the oil tub (prototype so rough turning finish and thrust pad))
I hope this helps clarify what I am doing
Ian
Ian's prototype arrived. Yesterday afternoon I pulled out the Mike new bearing from my 1210 and put in the IanMac Super. Very interesting - this baby is the real deal. The first impression I got was that I was listening to pristine vinyl - where had the noise gone? But I was playing familiar music. I sat down and listened to House by Katie Melua, Schubert's Great C Major, and Blackbird (a double LP) by Fat Freddy's Drop. I spent almost the whole evening listening and re-listening. There were a couple of places where tiny details were able to come through that I had not previously heard. I have had three different bearings in my 1210MkV in the past but this one is a keeper. I am sure it must be down to the Peek or whatever thrustpad material is in the bearing.
This was running without any oil or other lubrication and I guess I will give that a go as well.
First I would like to make some recordings. I have a 'line-in' on my music PC and I will endeavour to record some tracks for comparison. Depending on the software I may record flac files at 16bit 44.1 Khz, 24bit 96 Khz, and maybe 24bit 192 Khz. Then I can redo the recordings with a lubricant and also do comparison recordings with my other bearings.
Any suggestions on how to post the files? I've heard of dropbox, would that do?
Interesting (and encouraging) results, Andrei… However, posting ‘needle drops’, as it were, on the open forum unfortunately isn’t allowed, as we run into copyright issues and have been reprimanded by the authorities for it in the past.
You could certainly PM or email interested parties with the relevant links, and do it that way :)
Marco.
keiron99
16-03-2015, 21:16
This is all very encouraging. :)
Interesting (and encouraging) results, Andrei… However, posting ‘needle drops’, as it were, on the open forum unfortunately isn’t allowed, as we run into copyright issues and have been reprimanded by the authorities for it in the past.
You could certainly PM or email interested parties with the relevant links, and do it that way :)
Marco.
Will do. Also any needle drops will not be whole tracks, just extracts - ie will have no commercial value.
allthingsanalogue
16-03-2015, 23:01
Ian's prototype arrived. Yesterday afternoon I pulled out the Mike new bearing from my 1210 and put in the IanMac Super. Very interesting - this baby is the real deal. The first impression I got was that I was listening to pristine vinyl - where had the noise gone? But I was playing familiar music. I sat down and listened to House by Katie Melua, Schubert's Great C Major, and Blackbird (a double LP) by Fat Freddy's Drop. I spent almost the whole evening listening and re-listening. There were a couple of places where tiny details were able to come through that I had not previously heard. I have had three different bearings in my 1210MkV in the past but this one is a keeper. I am sure it must be down to the Peek or whatever thrustpad material is in the bearing.
Are you saying this is better than the 'Mike New bearing'?
It looks well designed by the pics but I do find it hard to believe.
Mike_New
16-03-2015, 23:30
Hi Andrew,
It would most certainly be hard to believe!!
But coming from some one who recommends ripping off the rubber from the underside of the OEM platter and then filling with resin.
And then claims impressive improvements, anything can be believed.
Presumably he was using this platter as reference!!!!!
I am well aware that I got “shouted” at by him for warning others that this could cause distortion of the platter, and was a very stupid thing to do.
So I guess an $85 solution would have to be better for him.
Are you saying this is better than the 'Mike New bearing'?
It looks well designed by the pics but I do find it hard to believe.
I think the proof will be in the pudding. I think Ian's input is laudable and is genuinely different from anything that has gone before. I am hoping my digital files will help display differences in the three bearings. I know that by definition they will not be analogue but I seem to recall Michael Fremer posting some digital files in a phono-stage or platter-mat shootout. I am rather full on with work, and have yet to work out how to get accurate vinyl rips but I will purchase an ADC at my own cost if I have to because I know others on this forum have put themselves out & I am prepared to do so as well.
Hi Andrew,
It would most certainly be hard to believe!!
But coming from some one who recommends ripping off the rubber from the underside of the OEM platter and then filling with resin.
And then claims impressive improvements, anything can be believed.
Presumably he was using this platter as reference!!!!!
I am well aware that I got “shouted” at by him for warning others that this could cause distortion of the platter, and was a very stupid thing to do.
So I guess an $85 solution would have to be better for him.
This an inappropriate, and not factually accurate. I did not fill a platter with resin - you cannot point to where I said I did that. Nor did I claim impressive results for filling a platter with resin. Again you cannot point to that. Incidentally, are you questioning the integrity of those who did fill fill the platter with resin?
'A reference': again incorrect - actually I used a regular platter (I have six). Again an imputation without foundation.
I never shouted at you (or anyone on this forum for that matter). Again, you cannot offer evidence. As regards 'a very stupid thing to do.' What are you talking about?
Guys,
I’m going to nip the sniping in the bud and insist that this thread remains on-topic. Therefore, no more arguing, please, from anyone. If I see further evidence of that behaviour, it will be removed without further warning.
Mike, with respect, I know that you don’t see any value in Ian’s modifying of the Technics bearing, and in the past have had disagreements with Andrei, but that doesn’t mean you can come onto threads like this and have a go at both because you don’t like or agree with it and/or them, so please don’t, and instead stick to promoting your own designs, which ultimately are aimed at those with more disposable income.
Competition (if you indeed you see it that way) is a good thing, as a) it allows others with an alternative thinking and take on matters to produce and offer something different, and potentially useful to the membership, and b) (and this is the most important thing of all), when it comes to products relating to the improvement of the SL-1200/1210, helps keep the modded Technics alive, and offer users the biggest bang for their buck.
Therefore, in that respect, AoS is here to support BOTH Ian and you, and indeed anyone else who should appear on the scene and come up with something interesting or useful for the Technics, so please let there be no further acrimony, and simply realise (and this applies to everyone involved here) that no-one on AoS has the monopoly on the modifying of any aspect of the SL-1200/1210, and to work together as a community towards the goal of offering members the widest choice of products available at different price points.
Having said that now, I insist that subsequent posts here relate solely to the thread topic and the discussion of Ian’s modified bearing. Anything else will be removed. That applies in particular to off-topic input from Andrei or you, or indeed Ian, who aside from some provocative remarks initially, has conducted himself impeccably.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Looking good, Ian! I think you’re onto something very worthwhile here, mate :)
Marco.
x2, l would be interested as well.
allthingsanalogue
18-03-2015, 09:50
Guys,
I’m going to nip the sniping in the bud and insist that this thread remains on-topic. Therefore, no more arguing, please, from anyone. If I see further evidence of that behaviour, it will be removed without further warning.
Marco.
Hi Marco
I hope my comment about comparing to the Mike New bearing caused no offence. This what not my intention. If so apologies all round.
Regards
Andrew
My view is that the thing both Ian and mike New's bearing (and mine for that matter) have in common is that they replace the flimsy piece of steel at the base of the stock bearing with something more substantial in mass. This plus what the bearing is attached to and the way it is attached are the most important factors from a sound point of view. I will repeat, just my opinion. I think the sleeve bearing and the rigidity of its housing play less of a roll in any sound improvements, its the thrust bearing improvements that bring the biggest gains, so in that respect all these solutions have their relevance.
allthingsanalogue
18-03-2015, 10:49
My view is that the thing both Ian and mike New's bearing (and mine for that matter) have in common is that they replace the flimsy piece of steel at the base of the stock bearing with something more substantial in mass. This plus what the bearing is attached to and the way it is attached are the most important factors from a sound point of view. I will repeat, just my opinion. I think the sleeve bearing and the rigidity of its housing play less of a roll in any sound improvements, its the thrust bearing improvements that bring the biggest gains, so in that respect all these solutions have their relevance.
Mike's bearing is completely new rather than modified.
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/ibiza23/AOS/DSC_0040_zps4a9a3dc5.jpg
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff430/ibiza23/AOS/DSC_0038_zps34f12573.jpg
Mike's bearing is completely new rather than modified.
And your point is?
Likewise, I'm not sure of the relevance new/modified makes in the context of my comments?
But I am aware that Mikes precision made item is manufactured from scratch.
allthingsanalogue
18-03-2015, 13:09
And your point is?
Likewise, I'm not sure of the relevance new/modified makes in the context of my comments?
But I am aware that Mikes precision made item is manufactured from scratch.
My only point was that although they while they share replacing the "flimsy piece of steel at the base of the stock bearing with something more substantial in mass" everything else is built from scratch which will also have contributing factor on the base thrust pad.
I would like to say that Quin's bearing does look nice and if I had another 1210 I would seriously consider sending my him my old bearing to be modified.
:respect:
keiron99
20-03-2015, 08:52
I know I haven't even heard one, but can I formally say that I will purchase one from Ian if/when they are produced?
Is there a minimum number of orders required to make this happen?
I know I haven't even heard one, but can I formally say that I will purchase one from Ian if/when they are produced?
Is there a minimum number of orders required to make this happen?
:popcorn:
Have been away for 3 days.
To comment on some of the points raised.
I totally agree with Qwin on the issues with the bearing design that will have most effect on SQ. I mentioned earlier the reduction in LF noise I measured with mine.
I did look at a complete construction, even removed the precision part from a std bearing to fit into a new machined body but quickly concluded that I would gain nothing as on measuring the technics dimensions they were absolutely fine.
All I would do was add to the cost and that was against my objective to make this unit as inexpensively as possible. I always look for the best sound for my pound and this exercise is no different.
There are other reasons associated with the thrust bearing that made me decide to adopt my construction method
I work to 1 thousandth of an inch with my gear, the precision part of the bearing i.e. the shaft and female bush is as made by technics.
I have already offered to make a few bearings for forum members so if anyone is interested drop me a PM
£85 covers my costs given a donor bearing.
If there was sufficient interest it might be worth trying to get a discount from a Technics parts supplier for New donor bearings.
I had a sample bearing available last week but that is now out in the field.
A new Technics bearing is on route to me so I will have another sample unit available early next week.
Ian
I now have another sample unit ,based on a brand new Technics bearing, available for any member wishing to try one of these.
Ian
rmsshipbroker
26-03-2015, 12:12
Definitely interested in this Ian.
It looks to be a successful and very cost effective upgrade.
I've PM'ed you.
There are now a few modded bearings in use on the forum.
This has given me the opportunity to evaluate some used Technics Bearings and am concluding that with the older bearings it would be wise to use a New Bearing as the donor.
The latest bearings can be identified by the raised moulding on the top surface (I think it provides a manufacture date and mould reference)
I have also had the opportunity to try different lubricants. So far it looks like I am getting the best overall performance using an SAE 5 Motorbike Fork Oil.
Auto transmission oil is a very close equivalent.
I am looking at at oils with a teflon component and wondering if anyone has already tried these
Ian
rmsshipbroker
08-04-2015, 19:35
Received mine back today after Ian kindly turned it round very quickly over the Easter break.
The engineering looks to be to a very high standard.
The central shaft comes out, which eases experimentation with oils and is not an issue in use.
Sound wise, things have a fair bit more power and snap, holding together better when the going gets tough.
Definition and clarity has improved too, particularly the low level stuff.
One caveat is that I can only compare at the moment with an old worn mark 2 bearing, whereas the modded one is a low mileage mark 5'er.
This will of course account for some of the difference, but I have to say that from memory, I dont thnk it was as big a difference when I took it out.
For the money I'm happy.
Thanks Ian.
This is my realization of Ianmac improved bearing. Ian, many thanks for nice work and for your photos.
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p625/USSR_Rik/Technics%20SL-1200MkII%20improved%20bearing/Details_zps7u9xa50g.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p625/USSR_Rik/Technics%20SL-1200MkII%20improved%20bearing/IMG_1612_zpssyhzcki8.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p625/USSR_Rik/Technics%20SL-1200MkII%20improved%20bearing/IMG_1626_zpskjeogo4w.jpg
All details except of thrust pad are made from brass, bottom cap (i.e. new baseplate) fixed by 3 screws M4. I calculated simplified contacting area and decided {3 * M4} should be better than {4 * M3}. Side threaded hole (sealed by M3 screw) used for oil filling, top ring is the oil bay. Also I made 3 small grooves for oil on the upper end of bearing bush. As I see now, it was not the best solution, but.. 'as is'.
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p625/USSR_Rik/Technics%20SL-1200MkII%20improved%20bearing/IMG_1601_zpslpq6br0k.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p625/USSR_Rik/Technics%20SL-1200MkII%20improved%20bearing/IMG_1610_zpsqlz4la4m.jpg
I didn't find here PEEK plastic (e-bay sellers doesn't send it here) and made thrust pad from 'caprolon PA-6' (equivalents are: Ultramid D/BASF, Duretan В/Bayer AG, Maranyl/ICI, Zytel/Du Pont EI etc. etc. - there are a lot of them over the world). I have worked with this material earlier and decided that it is quite good for my purpose. It has low friction coefficient with steel and high rigidity comparing with teflon (Brinell hardness is approx. the same as PEEK and 5..7 times higher than teflon).
Sound difference with stock bearing is evident, bass is more solid and accurate. I think the hard baseplate gives the main contribution to sound. Unfortunately I didn't measured stock bearing but I quite trusted Ianmac's measurements.
Some pictures of manufacturing and finished device attached, all works performed by small lathe C3 (7x14") and drill press (see album http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/USSR_Rik/library/Technics%20SL-1200MkII%20improved%20bearing). Cutting the 100-mm support ring was one of the difficult operation :)
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p625/USSR_Rik/Technics%20SL-1200MkII%20improved%20bearing/DSC_0043_zps2na9lt9t.jpg
Excellent work, Valery, and great pictures! So how's it all sounding - can you hear some sonic improvements since fitting the modified bearing? What about a nice picture of your turntable with the bearing in situ? :cool:
Marco.
Thanks, Marco! As I said above, differencies in sound are great, especially in bass register. Bass becomes more solid and tight but without any kind of sharpness or roughness. In general, the sound became more conjoint and in the same time detailed. I compared it in my memory with stock bearing (new one bought on e-bay from Japan) and first version described by Qwin here http://www.jkwynn.co.uk//Projects.html (my old realization of Qwin upgrade was wrong, but I understood it only after mashining this one). My main mistake was soft thrust pad, now I use caprolon and it's what I wanted.
Nothing special in my TT exterior, see asked photos. But inside: fully recapped, transformer moved to the external power supply unit, strobe LED current reduced from 80 to 4..5 mA (I replaced red LEDs to yellow ones), stock tonearm rewired by litz, stock cables replaced with Klotz MC-5000 (twisted pair in double shield) and RCA replaced with balanced Neutrik XLR. AT-440MLa.
Do some experiments with homemade record clamp and platter mat, thinking about big chassis upgrade based in Qwin's idea.
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p625/USSR_Rik/IMG_1653_1_zpskhbstavl.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p625/USSR_Rik/IMG_1509_zpsr1srvih6.jpg
Excellent stuff, Valery! :)
Pictures just bring the whole project together, as it were, so thanks for that and for showing what the rest of your equipment looks like. Glad that you're getting good benefits from the modified bearing, too. Enjoy the music! :cool:
Marco.
Khom.
I have been away for the last two weeks and just catching up
Nice to see you have tweaked a bearing in a similar fashion to mine and are getting similar results.
Its well worth the effort.
Thanks for the mention of different plastics one can use for the bearing pad. I found it very difficult to get sheet form of some types, particularly in small quantities. Cutting/ slicing a pad from round bar on my mill didn't give me an accurate enough finish.
I did drill a 1mm vent hole in my bearing to allow for any mechanical/ oil volume change with temperature change in the oil bath. Maybe overkill on my part but it doesmake the insertion of the bearing shaft easier.
My next project is to build a high Q phono amp to replace my existing.
Get the lathe running again and try an under slung counter weight ?
Ianmac
My next project is to build a high Q phono amp to replace my existing.
Get the lathe running again and try an under slung counter weight ?
Ianmac
So there are no more Ianmac bearings available?
I did drill a 1mm vent hole in my bearing to allow for any mechanical/ oil volume change with temperature change in the oil bath. Maybe overkill on my part but it doesmake the insertion of the bearing shaft easier.
I think your solution is better than mine. Don't sure about temperature volume changes, but initial oil filling should be more convinient with vertical hole. My design of this hole near to useless.
Get the lathe running again and try an under slung counter weight ?
IanmacNever think about counterweight upgrade, do you have some ideas? I equipped my lathe by QCTP and it ready to fight :)
Khom
I'll try and post a picture of my underslung counterweight and Silicon filled Damper. (The latter ideally heeds a milling machine)
If I cant get this to work ill let you know and we can arrange to send one by email. Ive had previous issues trying to download photos due to my keyboard operational skills.
RickeyM
I made as promised 8 set of bearing parts as promised earlier. I have been asked to a make a further 2 two bearings for forum members. I made 4 sets of component parts that can be fitted to donor bearings, after that I do not intend to make any more.
Is Ianmac still around tried to contact him to order bearing
Cheers Gerry
Mike_New
17-07-2016, 00:05
I still have bearings available if you want one
Gerry
I'm on holiday till the 24th and have limited internet access. I have replied to your PM
Ian
Khom
I'll try and post a picture of my underslung counterweight and Silicon filled Damper. (The latter ideally heeds a milling machine)
If I cant get this to work ill let you know and we can arrange to send one by email.Something like this? See attached picture. Turned out from brass these days, counterweight mass center shifted down approx. 10 mm relative hole axis. Not so much as I want, but 1200 tonearm doesn't give many opportunities to improve. Listening now.
(Sorry for small offtopic).
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Ianmac_album/FXT11573.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/Ianmac_album/media/FXT11573.jpg.html)
I made mine slightly different.
A hole on the underside was filled with lead ad screw on the underside end gave fine adjust.
Ian
dimkasta
14-11-2016, 15:11
I read the entire thread after a looong time. Very interesting.
I was wondering if it would make sense to attach the chunky thrust plate sandwich on the turntable's body instead.
Some of us are already coupling it to the big mass of the body with wax or bluetac with very nice results.
This could reduce the work required on the lathe and would eliminate the need to modify stock bearings. We would just remove the stock thrust plate, and attach the new one to the well of the body.
I understand that there could be issues with the plate's angle, but we can test this before rejecting it. The well's bottom could be molded perpendicularly enough to the screw base.
The other negative would be that this way there will be no way to have an oil "bath" on the shaft. But this can be overcome by frequent cleaning and lubricating with thick oil. Something that is a good idea anyway.
On a different subject, another idea could be a chunky meetal ring fitted and screwed tightly on top and around the stock bearing body, to increase its mass, rigidity and coupling with the turntables body.
I am no engineer so feel free to call me names for my ignorance :D
I have been reading up on the feedback on the forum re contact between the bearing and baseplate.
There are a variety of ways it can be achieved and I have a few ideas I want to try as soon as I have finished the batch of bearings I promised.
I dont like driving blind as it were and want to measure electronically the differences gained or lost by the various options so it will take a little time.
As ever if any additional tweaks surface they will be DIY or made at LOW cost.
Any new feedback on anyone's experiences would be welcome for the benefit of us all.
Ian
dimkasta
15-11-2016, 10:42
Cool
About lubrication, I had very nice results with BP vanelus. It is a monograde oil (Like the factory Anderol 465 - SAE 30 / ISO 68).
The only drawback is that it comes in 4L cans, but it is rather cheap.
I also tried the thin oil by singer, but I prefer the thicker one. It stays in place longer and the turntable runs more freely and for longer periods without relubrication.
Sent from my HUAWEI NXT-L29 using Tapatalk
Mikeandvan
29-11-2016, 22:06
Anyone tried the Applied Fidelity bearing??
Packgrog
30-11-2016, 22:23
Anyone tried the Applied Fidelity bearing??
I was ready to buy one until I found out that the guy who made them passed away. :(
skoobydooby
08-08-2022, 21:25
Anyone tried these thrust pads? I was thinking of either trimming so it’s round and attaching it between the end cap and actual bearing chamber or just screwing it in to the original holes in the bearing shaft . http://https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304108444566?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=mTVznwp7Scu&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=-clzo15-Q12&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Also I’ve pm’d you Gerry (diviy)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.