Ortofon stylus scales

[lewis]

I'm currently using one of these Ortofon stylus scales,

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g457/pockets17/Ortofon-LP-Stylus-Force-Gauge-Scale.jpg

I know they are supposed to be accurate for their cheap as chips price, but what concerns me is that the height of my turntable mat and a 180g record is approx 3mm, but even after removing the mat and record and placing the scales directly on my platter, the height of the stylus when on the scales is approx 7mm, which is an increase of 4mm. Does anybody know if the extra 4mm would make any difference to the accuracy of the reading? :scratch::rolleyes:

[Audioman]

I think the scales are designed to be placed where the record would go -on top of the mat. There won't be any difference in the downforce (weight) of the arm over a few mm's. In any case records vary by several mm's between weights unless you adjust VTA for every disk.

[lewis]

I think the scales are designed to be placed where the record would go -on top of the mat. There won't be any difference in the downforce (weight) of the arm over a few mm's. In any case records vary by several mm's between weights unless you adjust VTA for every disk.

I would have thought that when you are into points of a gram, 4mm would make a difference, and ideally you would take your measurement with the stylus at the same height as when playing a record. :rolleyes:

Are there any scales available which measure at that height?

[The Grand Wazoo]

How does the weight of an object change in relation to its position relative to a notional ground point?
The only way I can think is that the earth's gravitational pull is slightly less the further away the object is from its centre.
I don't suppose that the difference for a distance of 4mm is particularly noticeable to a Danish see-saw.

[Marco]

Hi Andrew,

You really should invest in a decent set of digital scales, and they needn't be expensive. ebay is your friend :)

Marco.

[AlfaGTV]

Ebay jewellers scales MAY be a bliss, but beware, most of these crap items have the measuring area (or summat below) made from a material that is highly magnetic, or at least is affected by, which means measuring MC weights for my part is always carried out using Ortofon scales, simple as the are, they wont land your expensive MC on it's belly due to magnetism!!
Even the classic Shure works fine if you use it properly and keep the lions share of the MC body a bit off...

Regards //Mike

[chelsea]

Wouldn't worry about it.

[DSJR]

Oh ffs, please don't fret about a non existent problem :lol:

My Dual uses a coil spring, Rega style, to adjust the tracking weight. 5mm movement at the headshell is under a twentieth of a gramme according to the scale, and if your arm uses the counterweight position to gauge tracking weight, it'll be less than that.

PLEASE don't worry yourself and use the Ortofon gauge in the knowledge that it's safe, accurate, they're all the same and all but everlasting :) Oh, and they're CHEAP!!!!!!!!!

[Audioman]

Hi Andrew,

You really should invest in a set of digital scales, and they needn't be expensive. ebay is your friend :)

Marco.

Maybe Marco but Andrew will still be thinking whether removing the mat makes a difference - As pointed out 4mm difference from centre of the earth is neither here nor there.

[Marco]

Ebay jewellers scales MAY be a bliss, but beware, most of these crap items have the measuring area (or summat below) made from a material that is highly magnetic, or at least is affected by, which means measuring MC weights for my part is always carried out using Ortofon scales, simple as the are, they wont land your expensive MC on it's belly due to magnetism!!


Indeed, Mike, hence why in my recommendation I used the word "decent"... ;)

Marco.

[AlfaGTV]

Appreciate that Marco! Wasn't peeing on your parade either, just issuing a warning! You may go through a lot of ebay-"finds" and a lot of dollars before you find your "decent" scales! ;)
And, in my personal experience, the Ortofon scale is accurate enough, non-magnetic and wont hurt your diamond as it is made from plastic! Of course there are digital scales out there that tick all these boxes, but how do you find them? Any tips?
Regards //Mike

[Johnnie7]

hi guys

stylis scales need to be at the level the record will be at

even if it means taking the platter off and packing up the scales with solid shapes

some arms esp with lowered counter weight the stylis weight varies according to the rear weight height
concentric rear weights dont suffer as much but again do vary with large variations

scales should only be used to get a mid point and then the VTF set by ear as each system and room differ greatly and the manufacters mid setting of lets say 1.75grams is only your starting point

hope that helps any questions please just ask
best wishes of the season

j7

[lewis]

Mark, YNWaN, has very kindly contacted me, and offered me the option of purchasing one of these

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g457/pockets17/New1.jpg

After spending most of last night reading the thread, i had decided this was the perfect solution, so cheers Mark. :)

[Audioman]

Andrew you asked a question and got quite a few different views. Finaly you have been persuaded to buy a 'more accurate' electronic scale. That does not solve your problem unless you want .001grm accuracy which is likely to make little if any difference. I believe your Ortofon is perfectly accurate enough.

Also if Johnnie is right - and he his an arm designer and modifier after all -the height of an electronic scale may make achieving measurement at record level more difficult, though I think the Audioflat version should enable this. Manual scales such as Ortofon and Sure are approx at record height when paced on the mat and balanced out with the arm positioned. Refer to instructions to confirm this.

Start of towards the top of the manufacturers recommended range and work down + bear in mind there is 2-3 mm difference between a thin 80's pressing and a 200grm Analogue Productions. You can only get vtf accurate enough (mean pressure) over a range of disks. IMO 2 or 3 mm are therefore insignificant and 'more accurate' electronic scales are mearly a luxury or convenience item. I will now wait for the bricks to be thrown.
:sofa:

[lewis]

Andrew you asked a question and got quite a few different views. Finaly you have been persuaded to buy a 'more accurate' electronic scale. That does not solve your problem unless you want .001grm accuracy which is likely to make little if any difference. I believe your Ortofon is perfectly accurate enough.

Also if Johnnie is right - and he his an arm designer and modifier after all -the height of an electronic scale may make achieving measurement at record level more difficult, though I think the Audioflat version should enable this. Manual scales such as Ortofon and Sure are approx at record height when paced on the mat and balanced out with the arm positioned. Refer to instructions to confirm this.

Start of towards the top of the manufacturers recommended range and work down + bear in mind there is 2-3 mm difference between a thin 80's pressing and a 200grm Analogue Productions. You can only get vtf accurate enough (mean pressure) over a range of disks. IMO 2 or 3 mm are therefore insignificant and 'more accurate' electronic scales are mearly a luxury or convenience item. I will now wait for the bricks to be thrown.
:sofa:

Hi Paul,
I haven't been persuaded to buy a more accurate scale. I'm buying Mark's Audioflat scale by my own choice. After reading Marks thread i decided the Audioflat scale addressed all the current problems with cheap digital scales, it is non-magnetic, and, measurement is taken at the same height as the record on the platter. Whether the Audioflat scale makes any difference to the reading of my Ortofon scale remains to be seen, but this is something i want to find out!

[DSJR]

In my experience, it shouldn't be different to the Ortofon, but as you've noted, the Ortofon is only accurate to the basic points printed on the top, the settings in between being guesswork...

My Shure balance, which has long gone, wasn't very accurate at all, there being large differences depending upon whether the coarse or fine adjustments were used. I quite like the Rek-O-Kut plastic balance, similar to that which the AR deck of old used. Extremely accurate indeed if solid settings are needed and I still have the fussy Transcriptors one..

Good luck :)

[lewis]

In my experience, it shouldn't be different to the Ortofon, but as you've noted, the Ortofon is only accurate to the basic points printed on the top, the settings in between being guesswork...

My Shure balance, which has long gone, wasn't very accurate at all, there being large differences depending upon whether the coarse or fine adjustments were used. I quite like the Rek-O-Kut plastic balance, similar to that which the AR deck of old used. Extremely accurate indeed if solid settings are needed and I still have the fussy Transcriptors one..

Good luck :)

The Ortofon is amazing vfm, but as you rightly say, the in-between settings are guesswork, and what if i eventually purchase a Musicmaker 3 cart with its very fussy 1.58g sweet spot... try gettin that on the Ortofon!

[DSJR]

Bloody overpriced Grado Gold with a fancy EsCo tip on it - ugh! grumble-grumble-moan-whinge-grump.......

[Marco]

+1... Soz, Andrew!

Marco.

[walpurgis]

I'm using small, cheap, plastic topped digital scales bought new via eBay for a fiver and they work just fine. I also have the Ortofon unit, but never use it.

[lewis]

Been out all day, just got back...

Never heard a Musicmaker myself, i'm going on reviews and recommendations - have you guys actually heard one? :)