Directional Interconnects - Which Way ?

[RobbieGong]

Which direction should the arrow on these interconnects point in ? ie: away from the amp or in the direction of the amp.
Secondly, Which direction would the arrow point for an equaliser ? towards the amp or away from it ??? Hope I'm making sense guys :scratch: :)

[istari_knight]

Which direction should the arrow on these interconnects point in ? ie: away from the amp or in the direction of the amp.
Secondly, Which direction would the arrow point from an equaliser ? towards the amp or away from it ??? Hope I'm making sense guys :scratch: :)

AFAIK On any audio cable with arrows the arrows are supposed to point away from the source.

I have my "directional" speaker cables backwards out of spite...

[RobbieGong]

AFAIK On any audio cable with arrows the arrows are supposed to point away from the source.

I have my "directional" speaker cables backwards out of spite...

When you say source I take it you mean the cd, tuner etc (sorry to be thick just making sure). If that's the case then I'm assuming (which I shouldn't :eyebrows:) that in the case on an equaliser, the arrows would then point towards it ?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Surely an EQ device has a pair of input sockets and a pair of output sockets?
If you must follow the arrows on the cables, then your input cables should have the arrow pointing into the EQ and the output cables should have their arrows pointing out & away from the EQ.

Think of your system as a river. Chuck a stick (signal) into it at the point were it starts (the source - CD, tuner, turntable etc). The stick will float downstream, away from the source towards the sea (speakers). On the way, it will pass through the amp and anything else you have connected up.

Simple system:
CD > (in via CD input sockets) amp (out via the speaker sockets) > speakers
....in this case if all the cables have arrow, then they should follow the arrow as shown.

With a pre/power amp:
CD > pre-amp (out via the main out sockets) > power amp (out via the speaker sockets) > speakers

With an EQ between pre & power
CD > pre-amp (out via the main out sockets) > EQ > power amp (out via the speaker sockets) > speakers

If you're putting the EQ into a system with an integrated amp or AV receiver, then you should consider the following:
CD > receiver (out via the EQ outputs) > EQ > receiver (in via the EQ inputs / out via the speaker sockets) > speakers

[RobbieGong]

Surely an EQ device has an pair of input sockets and a pair of output sockets?
If you must follow the arrows on the cables, then your input cables should have the arrow pointing into the EQ and the output cables should have their arrows pointing out & away from the EQ.

Cheers Chris, Amp has built in external adaptor for eq so will follow your instruction- Thanks :)

[The Grand Wazoo]

For a bit more, see my edit above Rob

[DSJR]

Assuming you can hear a difference at all - and some cables don't mind which way round they are, although others are terribly directional, at least when new - run both the same way and try each pair both ways to see which suits you best.

[RichB]

As long as the crystals are properly aligned it doesnt matter.:lol:

I've always assumed that where the manufacturer has bothered to put directional arrows on the cable this is from the component source to the amplifier. For speaker cables it is from the amp to the speaker.

I was recently confused when i bought a home made pair of Klotz AC110 (Rega Clone) and there were no directional indicators. It doesnt appear to make any difference to the sound which way I have them.

[AlanS]

Assuming you can hear a difference at all - and some cables don't mind which way round they are, although others are terribly directional, at least when new - run both the same way and try each pair both ways to see which suits you best.

Excellent wisdom and advice. Dont assume arrows mean anything.

[AlanS]

As long as the crystals are properly aligned it doesnt matter.:lol:

I've always assumed that where the manufacturer has bothered to put directional arrows on the cable this is from the component source to the amplifier. For speaker cables it is from the amp to the speaker.

I was recently confused when i bought a home made pair of Klotz AC110 (Rega Clone) and there were no directional indicators. It doesnt appear to make any difference to the sound which way I have them.

Hello
What crystals are you thinking of? Cables are made of metal and usually plastic insulator none of which form crystaline structures unlike minerals, diamond, quartz for example.

[TCats]

Hello
What crystals are you thinking of? Cables are made of metal and usually plastic insulator none of which form crystaline structures unlike minerals, diamond, quartz for example.

I knew I wasted my time studying metallurgy? :scratch:

http://www.minerals.net/mineral/copper.aspx

[AlanS]

I knew I wasted my time studying metallurgy? :scratch:

http://www.minerals.net/mineral/copper.aspx

Thanks, corrected. So once worked into a cable the crystal structure is still present and those can move about? The apparently solid wire is dancing in your system?

[TCats]

Thanks, corrected. So once worked into a cable the crystal structure is still present and those can move about? The apparently solid wire is dancing in your system?

No idea never found a cable to make a difference if not defective. :)

[Stratmangler]

As long as the crystals are properly aligned it doesnt matter.:lol:

I've always assumed that where the manufacturer has bothered to put directional arrows on the cable this is from the component source to the amplifier. For speaker cables it is from the amp to the speaker.

I was recently confused when i bought a home made pair of Klotz AC110 (Rega Clone) and there were no directional indicators. It doesnt appear to make any difference to the sound which way I have them.

Hello
What crystals are you thinking of? Cables are made of metal and usually plastic insulator none of which form crystaline structures unlike minerals, diamond, quartz for example.

Bit slow aren't we?
Facetious comment and all that ;)

[walpurgis]

Sorry guys, it's all nonsense, regardless of what you may think you percieve and of what manufacturers and magazines say, cables are not directional.

I'd love somebody with a degree in metallurgy to explain to me how copper or silver or silver plated copper can be persuaded to favour current directionality. Especially as audio signals do not 'flow', they reciprocate.

(of course, I'll now get loads of indignant replies, but not from anybody who can expand on the science)

[AlanS]

Bit slow aren't we?
Facetious comment and all that ;)

You rather talk about the person that the subject?
Do you know if the crystals move about in the wire structure? Take your time.

[Stratmangler]

You rather talk about the person that the subject?
Do you know if the crystals move about in the wire structure? Take your time.

Get out of bed the wrong side did we?
There is no subject raised about "the crystals" except for a throwaway comment (the laughing emoticon is a clue, just in case you missed it).

As ever your incisive wit falls into condescention too.
Bravo :clap:

[prestonchipfryer]

Directional cables? Who can tell? Who cares!? :)

[Stratmangler]

Directional cables? Who can tell? Who cares!? :)

Amen! :)

[AlanS]

Get out of bed the wrong side did we?
There is no subject raised about "the crystals" except for a throwaway comment (the laughing emoticon is a clue, just in case you missed it).

As ever your incisive wit falls into condescention too.
Bravo :clap:


Man you are something else. No I didnt see the emoticon. I usually ignore them as on a mobile phone screen they are tiny. Just because you see it as throw away does not mean others do. Many strange questions get asked here. As ever? I rarely post here but I'll remember your good self. Have a superior and smug Christmas.

[Stratmangler]

Man you are something else. No I didnt see the emoticon. I usually ignore them as on a mobile phone screen they are tiny. Just because you see it as throw away does not mean others do. Many strange questions get asked here. As ever? I rarely post here but I'll remember your good self. Have a superior and smug Christmas.

And a good one to your pompous self :)

[AlanS]

And a good one to your pompous self :)

Happy now or do you need more. Anything to say about my Rega 200 belt posts? Your not pissed cos your signature is close to mine are you. You not a grumpy git really are you. Go on have the last word

[walpurgis]

Directional cables? Who can tell? Who cares!? :)

Yes, well said that man!

[snapper]

Alan and Chris, there's nae need fer this pish. T'is the season to be jolly.


:christmas:

[chelsea]

Cables strike again.

Roll on the day hi fi can be wireless.

[AlanS]

Alan and Chris, there's nae need fer this pish. T'is the season to be jolly.


:christmas:

Very much agreed. Does this guy have issues? Never encountered him before.

[RobbieGong]

Blimey guys ! Tis the season to be jolly is it not !?! Season of good will towards ya fellow man and all that :lol:
All I wanted to know was which way those arrows should point (towards the amp or away from it) because I thought it was something that mattered seeing as they are actually there. Certainly didnt want to cause a fight between my fellow AOS brothers - :doh:

[AlanS]

Blimey guys ! Tis the season to be jolly is it not !?! Season of good will towards ya fellow man and all that :lol:
All I wanted to know was which way those arrows should go because I thought it was something that mattered seeing as they are actually there. Certainly didnt want to cause a fight between my fellow AOS brothers - :doh:

You didnt cause any thing I should have ignored his first post in hindsight. Live and learn.
Have you got the answer you want. Just try them and listen. My speaker cables are in the 'wrong way'.

[RobbieGong]

You didnt cause any thing I should have ignored his first post in hindsight. Live and learn.
Have you got the answer you want. Just try them and listen. My speaker cables are in the 'wrong way'.

Hi Alan, Yeah I think I've got it - The arrows generally are meant to point away from the source (ie cd player etc) towards the amp. Different consideration in the case of the equalizer though.

[walpurgis]

Cables strike again.

Roll on the day hi fi can be wireless.

Ah, but then there'll be all sorts of arguments about how that should be implemented.

[DSJR]

If ANY of you have any doubts at all about SOME cables being directional, I have two wires to mention - and if you can't hear any directional change I'd be VERY surprised.....

The first is the Chord Company Solid, especially the early stiff one. get one of the pair wrong and the difference is so large the stereo image is shifted quite noticably - repeatable too.........

The second is the Godawful (in any direction) QED SA speaker cable. Follow the writing to the speakers and the sound is harsh, dynamically strangled and all-one-level "HiFi." Run the stuff with writing back to amp (at least when this stuff was new) and although the basic bland shiny quality remains, it's a bit more tolerable.

I agree that the Klotz AC110 isn't over bothered how it's used and neither is the 2m "white" Pure AV cable I bought pretty cheap when it was all the rage a while ago, although the chunky Ecoflex 10 RF cable did show a little bit on reverb effects. Van Damme and other mic cables really depend on where the outer screen is connected I find although I tend to use these wires with the outer writing going back to the source...

Merry Christmas all :)

[RichB]

Hello chaps, just to clarify that when I mention crystals its a euphemism for voodoo, snake oil or bunkum.

All very tongue in cheek. Take care and have a lovely Christmas.

[technobear]

Directional cables?

For alternating current signals?

:scratch:

Nah!

Merry Xmas :ner:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well, if a cable is wired with a screen connected at one end and not the other (so-called pseudo-balanced), then it will be directional. As for all others? Well that's up you & your ears to decide, should you be so inclined as to investigate!

[Z-A]

Well, if a cable is wired with a screen connected at one end and not the other (so-called pseudo-balanced), then it will be directional. As for all others? Well that's up you & your ears to decide, should you be so inclined as to investigate!

As above, at last.. For ic's with a screen connected at one end, it is usually marked as per the direction of flow of signal. Maybe noticeable IF there are any RFI issues. Noticing the difference in anything but the highest resolution systems may be difficult, for standard coax it won't matter.
Rgds & seasons greetings, crystals included..

[Wakefield Turntables]

cable directions, here's my thoughts

:rfl:

This argument comes up time and time again. If you think it makes your hifidelity system sound better plugging your cables in a certain direction then it surely must. Me, I plug them in any direction I damm well fancy and still hear the same results. :trust:

[walpurgis]

Well, if a cable is wired with a screen connected at one end and not the other (so-called pseudo-balanced), then it will be directional. As for all others? Well that's up you & your ears to decide, should you be so inclined as to investigate!

Are you sure? I can't see how having the screen earth (connection to neg) closer or further away, depending on which way round the cable is, would affect anything. The molecular structure of the conducting cores is fixed and would not be influenced. And, as has been said the signal is reciprocating and does not flow as such, so directionality (not that it exists) would not be an issue. Just my humble opinion.

[DSJR]

Directional cables?

For alternating current signals?

:scratch:

Nah!

Merry Xmas :ner:

If you've tried it and can't hear any difference, then kudos to you! If you can't be bothered to try it because it just cannot work, well.....................

Just listen to reproduction of reverb and high frequencies in general. Some cables are quite noticeable and repeatable for whatever reason where others don't mind (the best ones?)

[brian2957]

Whenever I put a new set of cablea into my system I always mark the direction in which I put them in , just in case :). All it costs is an inch or so of heatshrink or tape . Removes any doubts which I may have . You never know :eyebrows:

[AlanS]

Hello chaps, just to clarify that when I mention crystals its a euphemism for voodoo, snake oil or bunkum.

All very tongue in cheek. Take care and have a lovely Christmas.

I am sure that will clarify things.

Can I float this before you, stratman and others who use emoticons to convey part of you message. Big PC screen they are clearly visible.
Mobile phone browser tiny hard to work out what they are.
Tapatalk just not there it is text only.
Those of you who only use a PC will not be aware and possibly lead to situation as happened on this thread on Monday.

Cheers

[Marco]

And so the lesson learned is:

UNLESS THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION (and I mean when it is impossible for anything to be used other than a mobile phone), USE A PROPER BLOODY COMPUTER WHEN POSTING ON FORUMS!!

[Or wait until you have access to one before making any 'meaningful' contributions].

;)

Marco.

[AlanS]

And so the lesson learned is:

UNLESS THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION (and I mean when it is impossible for anything to be used other than a mobile phone), USE A PROPER BLOODY COMPUTER WHEN POSTING ON FORUMS!!

[Or wait until you have access to one before making any 'meaningful' contributions].

;)

Marco.

Why should I HAVE to use a PROPER BLOODY COMPUTER monitor? Does that apply to blind or partially sighted folks who use a text reader to benefit from the forum and never see emoticons. Many web sites provide a mobile version rather than require a PROPER BLOODY COMPUTER. They are commercial/government agencies I grant you but one can post / request / buy things without experiencing grief. Other forums seem to be less picto dependant and still stay alive.

Another lesson is dont attack people cos you think they are stupid/not as bright as you. Probably closer to AUP. Perhaps you all open a conversation you have no previous with by saying 'did you get out the wrong side of bed'. Thats a good lesson all the time avoids friction etc.

Happy Holiday season.

[the engine]

I'm using my laptop now..........bugger keeps falling off when I change gear though !

[Wakefield Turntables]

And all this from cable directions:scratch: Gentlemen, either lock this thread up, or get back on direction (ged'it:) ) with this discussion. ;)

[Tim]

No matter what the aims of any thread may be at the start, as soon as *cables* are introduced, its never long before it always seems to go . . .

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/train.jpg

. . . take the emotion out and you have to laugh really ;)

Happy holidays y'all

:cool:

[technobear]

There is a hypothesis that the direction of twist of a multi-core cable or twisted pair may have an effect. There is some evidence to suggest that electricity, like most things in nature, likes to follow a spiral path. Forcing it to spiral in the opposite of the natural direction may disrupt the signal in some way - perhaps by forcing the electrons to the surface rather than remaining in the core. Just a hypothesis. Not knowingly proven at this point.

Having said that, the direction of twist would of course be the same if you reversed the cable.

[walpurgis]

I tried it. I put my interconnects round the wrong way. Then the speakers sucked all of the music out of the room and put it back on the CD I'd been playing!

[Marco]

Why should I HAVE to use a PROPER BLOODY COMPUTER monitor? Does that apply to blind or partially sighted folks who use a text reader to benefit from the forum and never see emoticons. Many web sites provide a mobile version rather than require a PROPER BLOODY COMPUTER. They are commercial/government agencies I grant you but one can post / request / buy things without experiencing grief. Other forums seem to be less picto dependant and still stay alive.

Another lesson is dont attack people cos you think they are stupid/not as bright as you. Probably closer to AUP. Perhaps you all open a conversation you have no previous with by saying 'did you get out the wrong side of bed'. Thats a good lesson all the time avoids friction etc.


You obviously missed the 'wink' smiley in my last post, Alan... Bloody mobile phones, eh? :lol:


Happy Holiday season.

Indeed! And to you :)

Marco.

[AlanS]

You obviously missed the 'wink' smiley in my last post, Alan... Bloody mobile phones, eh? :lol:



Indeed! And to you :)

Marco.

You got it thanks. Enjoy the season all.

[Wakefield Turntables]

There is a hypothesis that the direction of twist of a multi-core cable or twisted pair may have an effect.

Chris,

At last someone that has some logic! These are all hypotheses, like i always say, where is the evidence???? I shall continue to laugh and sit on the fence
until you can validate any of these effects with pure cold hard science. Its as simple as that.

A

[lurcher]

Sorry guys, it's all nonsense, regardless of what you may think you percieve and of what manufacturers and magazines say, cables are not directional.

I'd love somebody with a degree in metallurgy to explain to me how copper or silver or silver plated copper can be persuaded to favour current directionality. Especially as audio signals do not 'flow', they reciprocate.

(of course, I'll now get loads of indignant replies, but not from anybody who can expand on the science)

Just to expand on the science. Go and read Maxwell, you will find there is a vector of propagation. Information flows from source to sink. So while you may smugly point at AC being alternating, we are not talking about steady state AC, we are talking about signals that conveys information, normally from a voltage source (low impedance) to a high impedance load. so yes, in a real scientific sense, they DO flow, and there is a distinction between the source and load.

[Stratmangler]

Another lesson is dont attack people cos you think they are stupid/not as bright as you. Probably closer to AUP. Perhaps you all open a conversation you have no previous with by saying 'did you get out the wrong side of bed'. Thats a good lesson all the time avoids friction etc.

Who attacked you?
I merely pointed out that the tongue in cheek nature of a post had been missed.

If you want to get the order of things correct then go back in the thread, and note the order in which things occurred.
The initial discourse from my side certainly made no mention about getting out of bed the wrong side - that came later.

Maybe reading posts properly would help (get a proper device to read the forum on, or a least ditch Tapatalk and use the web browser), and admitting that one is fallible would also help - my first post in the thread was an attempt to save your blushes after you had failed to spot that tongue in cheek post for what it was.

I have up until now remained quiet at the request of Snapper - I just want to put the record straight.

Go back and read again, and don't take things so personally this time, and you'll find that the "attacks" you mention always came after a condescending comment or insult from your good self.

I'll not respond any further to this thread.

All the best
Chris

[walpurgis]

Just to expand on the science. Go and read Maxwell, you will find there is a vector of propagation. Information flows from source to sink. So while you may smugly point at AC being alternating, we are not talking about steady state AC, we are talking about signals that conveys information, normally from a voltage source (low impedance) to a high impedance load. so yes, in a real scientific sense, they DO flow, and there is a distinction between the source and load.

Seems I've been mis-quoted. Don't recall mentioning AC or anything alternating at all, let alone smugly!

I think you may have misunderstood my reference to the cyclic nature of audio signals. There would be a flow in a DC situation, even if the DC signal/current was modulated. Audio amplifiers 'push and pull' audio signals, each positive signal half wave being matched by an equal and opposite negative half wave according to whatever frequency is being dealt with, therefore, as I suggested earlier, the signal reciprocates.

Fortunately, we are each able to make our own choices and I won't be signing up to anything I regard as 'mumbo jumbo'!

(hope this doesn't prompt further indignant response)

[DSJR]

Nothing indignant, but have you ever TRIED IT, for a laugh if nothing else??????

[walpurgis]

Nothing indignant, but have you ever TRIED IT, for a laugh if nothing else??????

Yes Dave, I've tried various decent cables all ways round and never heard a hint of difference.

(As an adenda. Just my view, but the only thing that propogates in Hi-Fi comes from the exit transducer, i.e., the sound from the speaker and that too is cyclic, but is dissipated into the environment.)

[DSJR]

OK :)

[lurcher]

as I suggested earlier, the signal reciprocates.

No it doesn't, thats what I was trying to point out. The electrons in the wire reciprocate, but the SIGNAL travels FROM transmitter TO receiver at a speed slower than the speed of light in a vacuum.

[Wakefield Turntables]

arrghhh... normality restored and handbags stored firmly over shoulders. :)

[RichB]

Seems it is another one of those 'trust your ears only' type of issues.

On the other point of how messages are best read on here then I have found a proper browser to be best as it conveys all the emoticons, subtleties of punctuation and of course the lovely pics.

[walpurgis]

No it doesn't, thats what I was trying to point out. The electrons in the wire reciprocate, but the SIGNAL travels FROM transmitter TO receiver at a speed slower than the speed of light in a vacuum.

I'm glad you pointed that out Nick, I was struggling there for a while. Geoff.

[RichB]

No it doesn't, thats what I was trying to point out. The electrons in the wire reciprocate, but the SIGNAL travels FROM transmitter TO receiver at a speed slower than the speed of light in a vacuum.

I bought my wife a new vacuum for Christmas, it will be gathering dust for years:lol:

[technobear]

I bought my wife a new vacuum for Christmas, it will be gathering dust for years:lol:

Brave man :eek:

That's no. 2 only to buying her an iron :D

[Marco]

I bought my wife a new vacuum for Christmas, it will be gathering dust for years:lol:

You didn't forget the cookbook, did you, or the guide on 101 ways to give the best blow-job? :D

Marco.

[NRG]

Just to expand on the science. Go and read Maxwell, you will find there is a vector of propagation. Information flows from source to sink. So while you may smugly point at AC being alternating, we are not talking about steady state AC, we are talking about signals that conveys information, normally from a voltage source (low impedance) to a high impedance load. so yes, in a real scientific sense, they DO flow, and there is a distinction between the source and load.

Yes, Rozenblit also covers it but IMHO makes an error in his assumption that an audio signal is balanced.

RE: TapaTalk, it is quite capable of showing emoticons, its not text only.

[Barry]

Are you sure? I can't see how having the screen earth (connection to neg) closer or further away, depending on which way round the cable is, would affect anything. The molecular structure of the conducting cores is fixed and would not be influenced. And, as has been said the signal is reciprocating and does not flow as such, so directionality (not that it exists) would not be an issue. Just my humble opinion.

So called semi-balanced interconnects use a twisted pair for the audio signal, and being symmetrical, is not in itself directional.

To screen the twisted pair an overall shield or woven braid is used, and this is connected to the outer conductor of the phono plug at one end only. As such the overall construct is asymmetric and can be directional. Since the screen is there to prevent RFI entering the audio circuitry, it is important the screen is connected to the point of lowest electromagnetic potential, i.e. the mains earth.

This is not necessarily the same as the potential of the outer conductor of the output connector of the source, so it does not necessarily follow that if directional arrows are marked on the cable they must point from source to amp. (Cable manufacturers often put arrows on their cables as the customer expects them to do so. They go to the trouble of printing their name down the length of the cable, so adding some arrows adds no extra cost.)

[Effem]

I had a visit from the Cables Connected Wrong Way Round Police this morning, I have been charged accordingly and I am up before the Beak on Monday.

Don't suffer a similar fate as I am about to dear AoS members - GO CHECK THEM ARROWS NOW before that terrible knock on the door in the early hours :(

[Yomanze]

As long as the crystals are properly aligned it doesnt matter.:lol:

I've always assumed that where the manufacturer has bothered to put directional arrows on the cable this is from the component source to the amplifier. For speaker cables it is from the amp to the speaker.

I was recently confused when i bought a home made pair of Klotz AC110 (Rega Clone) and there were no directional indicators. It doesnt appear to make any difference to the sound which way I have them.

Sometimes interconnects use a dedicated ground cable instead of the conventional way of using the shield for the return. In these instances the arrows are indicative of which side of the shield is grounded. Having said this I wonder if this in itself makes a difference if you switch them around.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Sometimes interconnects use a dedicated ground cable instead of the conventional way of using the shield for the return. In these instances the arrows are indicative of which side of the shield is grounded. Having said this I wonder if this in itself makes a difference if you switch them around.

:doh: I would highly doubt it.

[Dingdong]

Sometimes interconnects use a dedicated ground cable instead of the conventional way of using the shield for the return. In these instances the arrows are indicative of which side of the shield is grounded. Having said this I wonder if this in itself makes a difference if you switch them around.

What you describe is some sort of pseudo-balanced arrangement. If the shield is not used as a signal conductor the I'd say it should be connected at the source side.
You'd still have to watch out for grounding issues between components though.

Wire that needs to be connected in one direction seems to me. But maybe I'll be proven wrong.

[Barry]

What you describe is some sort of pseudo-balanced arrangement. If the shield is not used as a signal conductor the I'd say it should be connected at the source side.
You'd still have to watch out for grounding issues between components though.

Wire that needs to be connected in one direction seems to me. But maybe I'll be proven wrong.

The shield has to be connected to the point of lowest electrical potential, i.e. the mains earth. This is NOT necessarily at the source - most source components, such as CD players and cassette decks are double screened (they use a 2 core mains lead) and the signal ground may not be at earth potential.

In these cases, if the shield is connected to the signal ground, that ground will only be connected to the mains earth at the preamp, via the signal return. The whole point of shielding is to place the shield at zero potential, via a low resistance path. Relying on the signal return to connect the shield to mains earth will not provide a path of lowest resistance.

You have to experiment and not follow the arrows blindly.

[AlexM]

Brave man :eek:

That's no. 2 only to buying her an iron :D

..... or a set of scales Won't be repeating that mistake in a hurry! :doh: