Sony ES amp channel dying(ish)

[Gromit]

Hi all, just calling upon the collective expertise of those far, far more knowlegeable than me - there's a channel balance problem with my lovely old Sony TA-F760ES. Basically the r/h channel fades in and out at times, doesn't usually go kaput completely, but nonetheless rather annoying. It's most obvious on the phono input, where at times there's virtually no signal on the right channel (I've done all the leads swapping, both i/c's and speaker cables) but give it a few minutes and the channels will balance up. Whilst not a soundstage/stereo imaging freak, it is somewhat puzzling when instruments and vocalists often go for a stroll to one side of the stage. :D

Switch the amp off, then on again, and it'll more often than not clear up. Sometimes, switching the speaker selection button on and off will also help, especially if the r/h channel has died completely. The channel imbalance is also through headphones so is clearly pointing towards the pre-amp section. I'm starting to wonder if it's the volume pot playing up because the turntable needs more gain; 'loud' is around 12 o'clock whereas same volume is around 10 o'clock for line inputs.

Any ideas at all please? I don't really want to throw vast amounts of money at the amp (it's only worth 100-150 quid) to get it fixed but if it was just something relatively cheap ie the volume pot then I'd be prepared to give it a go.

Thanks all.

[DSJR]

To start with, disconnect from mains, remove all covers and have a good peek at the phono board for dry joints, as well as the mechanical input selector switch if there is one.

I'm suspecting dry joints first since the fault comes and goes and jap caps do seem to last a heck of a lot longer than those used in Quad of the period.

If you cannot find anything, then a sympathetic engineer is your next port of call.

Sorry I can't be any further help to you :(

[istari_knight]

Sorry to hear about the problem... Theres always something isn't there :(

I doubt its dirty controls as most of the switches/potentiometers in ES amps are sealed, I equally doubt its faulty capacitors as the ES amps use ELNA cerafine/silmic/tonerex all of which have a lifespan of around 80,000 hours at average living room temperature.

The problem isn't confined to the preamp as the headphone socket is connected to the speaker outputs via its own relay & a couple of resistors to "lower" the signal.

I have encountered this exact problem before :eyebrows: The fault is your protection relay(s) has for want of a better word "shite" on its contacts from years of wear/tear which has made it a high impedance connection the signal struggles to get through. Every time you turn the amplifier on/off these relays are switched & every time you move the speaker selector these relays are switched disturbing the bad contact.

If you remove the cover, you will see 2 relays both situated in the top left corner by the binding posts, they are black rectangular plastic boxes... Try tapping each one with the plastic end of a screwdriver when the fault occurs to find out which one is at fault or alternatively change them both for peace of mind [part numbers should be printed on top] they usually cost between £4-£8 each so not a big deal.

If you decide to get rid of it please can I have first refusal ? :D

[Gromit]

Thanks for the help guys - appreciate it. :)

James - you're a star, that sounds extremely promising (and even better, cheap!). If a channel fails on start-up, it's usually a case of flicking the speaker selector button in and out a few times (I wondered if this operated relays as I could hear a click from inside the amp). This then clears it and we're cooking on both burners.

Will probably just go and order the bits if they're that cheap. :)

Oh...if I decide to move the amp on, I'll put your name on it. I do really like the thing though, hence me being keen to get it fixed - it's a lovely sounding bit of kit and in beautiful condition too.

[Mr Kipling]

Sorry to hear about the problem... Theres always something isn't there :(

I doubt its dirty controls as most of the switches/potentiometers in ES amps are sealed, I equally doubt its faulty capacitors as the ES amps use ELNA cerafine/silmic/tonerex all of which have a lifespan of around 80,000 hours at average living room temperature.

The problem isn't confined to the preamp as the headphone socket is connected to the speaker outputs via its own relay & a couple of resistors to "lower" the signal.

I have encountered this exact problem before :eyebrows: The fault is your protection relay(s) has for want of a better word "shite" on its contacts from years of wear/tear which has made it a high impedance connection the signal struggles to get through. Every time you turn the amplifier on/off these relays are switched & every time you move the speaker selector these relays are switched disturbing the bad contact.

If you remove the cover, you will see 2 relays both situated in the top left corner by the binding posts, they are black rectangular plastic boxes... Try tapping each one with the plastic end of a screwdriver when the fault occurs to find out which one is at fault or alternatively change them both for peace of mind [part numbers should be printed on top] they usually cost between £4-£8 each so not a big deal.

If you decide to get rid of it please can I have first refusal ? :D

I was going to say that!

Humbug.

Bah Humbug.

[brian2957]

Wow ! There are some real audio experts on this forum and I've benefited from some of their expertise in the past since joining AOS. Hope this proves to be a quick , cheap and easy fix Richard . Have to be quicker off the mark Stephen :)

[istari_knight]

No probs, always glad to help.

Me offering to buy it was pretty tongue in cheek to be honest... As much as I would like it I've got a Sony TA-FA3ES, a Marantz PM7200 & a Technics SU-V90D to fix over Christmas/new year so don't need anything else !

Best of luck with it & just shout if you need to know anything else.

[DSJR]

Well done... I was working on the phono preamp possibility here.

We had an iffy Yamaha CA1000mk2 in for service only a few months old. In the store - perfect, in clients home, intermittent channel. Couldn't replace as amp now out of production and we'd sold the last of the run-out consignment KJ specialised in taking advantage of. The ex-Yamaha UK service chap took the working amp and shook it and, lo and behold, the afflicted channel cut in and out - same fault as the Sony hopefully has...

Good luck :)

[Mr Kipling]

Just a thought. If the relays can have their covers removed, you could dip some thin card in methylated sprits and slide between the contacts, or perhaps cut an old toothbrush down and use that to clean the surfaces.

Then again, the contact surfaces might be pitted and shagged, which would require replacements as James says.

[Gromit]

Just a thought. If the relays can have their covers removed, you could dip some thin card in methylated sprits and slide between the contacts, or perhaps cut an old toothbrush down and use that to clean the surfaces.

Then again, the contact surfaces might be pitted and shagged, which would require replacements as James says.

Many thanks for the tip Stephen - I'll give that a try when I get round to having the amp's cover off. If there's any soldering to be done I'll get someone else to do that for me - I can plug a soldering iron in, but after that things go downhill very quickly. :D

[istari_knight]

Just a thought. If the relays can have their covers removed, you could dip some thin card in methylated sprits and slide between the contacts, or perhaps cut an old toothbrush down and use that to clean the surfaces.

Then again, the contact surfaces might be pitted and shagged, which would require replacements as James says.

That could work if not too bad. I only didn't suggest it as most DIY'er's seem to end up breaking the covers but they're knackered anyway so I guess it doesn't matter in this case :D

[reddish75]

Can you hear the relays clicking when the music go'es off? If you can its definetly not the relay its something downstream.

[Gromit]

Can you hear the relays clicking when the music go'es off? If you can its definetly not the relay its something downstream.

Hi Chris - to be honest the channel rarely dies completely, it's more of a bias towards one side, nearly always the left and can often move around during a listening session. Turn the amp on and off a couple of times and it returns to normal.

The only time the channel does go totally silent is if it fails to wake up on first switching the amp on. Sometimes pushing the speaker select button a few times will bring the channel back, but it more often than not needs the amp to be switched off then back on.

[wee tam]

also , if the above does not cure your problem , have a good look at the source direct board , very small , and only around £60 to replace , a few sonys' had a fault with this board , as you may have noticed "it is quiter in this operation" and the fault seems to intermittedly cut the source direct into one or both channels , meaning drop in volume in one or bath channels , usually dry joints or a crack in the board

[Gromit]

Thanks Tommy - I always run the amp in Source Direct (it does sound a fair bit better) regardless of input, only changing it to 'normal' when checking if a channel is working properly or not so as I can use the balance pot.

I'll run the amp tomorrow with the SD 'off' and see how we do over an hour or so's listening.

[reddish75]

Hi Chris - to be honest the channel rarely dies completely, it's more of a bias towards one side, nearly always the left and can often move around during a listening session. Turn the amp on and off a couple of times and it returns to normal.

The only time the channel does go totally silent is if it fails to wake up on first switching the amp on. Sometimes pushing the speaker select button a few times will bring the channel back, but it more often than not needs the amp to be switched off then back on.

Not the relay then, good advise from tommy above, a bright light and magnifying glass a must.

[Mr Kipling]

If it is the relays, operating any function will conduct vibration to the (dodgey) relay(s) and give the results you've described.

[Gromit]

Thanks for the help chaps - appreciate it. :)

I've just had one channel go into machine-gun mode whilst playing an LP, sounding like Norman Collier in fact. :D

Thought it might be the arm lead or plugs but fiddle with the input selector on the amp and the sound comes back. Only this time the phono input has a r/h bias as opposed to the line inputs which usually lean to the left when playing up.

Going from Source Direct to 'normal' does change things very slightly but not much - if I do switch when the amp is having a tantrum it doesn't really change anything tbh. It's starting to do my head in a bit now. :scratch:

Anyone have an integrated amp for sale, for less than 400 quid, with a really good phonostage? ;)

[Rare Bird]

What i learned over the years is have a few amplifiers on Tap incase one goes down, nothing worse than being left without music.. I do totally rebuild my amps wither it takes a year of spare time they eventually get done for long life reliability.

Hope you get sorted Rich..

[DSJR]

Rega Brio R? (that'll get the hens cackling elsewhere :lol:)

[Gromit]

Probably a good move RB, having a spare amp in 'stock'. :)

Dave - funnily enough a Brio-R had crossed my mind. Was round a work mate's house the other evening - he leant me a Dyna 10x5 to try in the Jelco (I also had another mate who's let me use his spare 103R - good to have trusting friends!). He runs a full-Rega set up with P5/10x5/Apollo R/Brio R/R3's and it sounds just fabulous. Not big on scale nor drama but ye gods it plays music rather sweetly.

I do need an amp which has plenty of oomph on tap though as we're now fortunate to live where volume isn't an issue (the nearest neighbour is over 30 yds away) so something which won't run out of steam - and provide clean power - is important.

As to the Sony, I've been running it quite hard this afternoon and it's largely behaved itself. Almost as though doing so has cured a misfire. Odd. Still don't trust it though.

[brian2957]

Have you seen this Richard ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170965413425?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Thought it might be what you're looking for . I know it's pick up only but I think some of the troops live up that way .

[Gromit]

Spooky! Got that in my watch list Brian - although the amp in the photo isn't a 530ES (despite the box) it's a much cheaper one which came as a rack system back in the early 80's, not sure of the model though, but it ain't a 530ES that's for sure.

[brian2957]

Bit cheeky then mate :rolleyes: I had it in my watched list too . Always fancied a listen to a Sony ES amp . Have to say though I'm very happy with my Rega Brio R / Rega DAC / Rega EL8 combination. It just plays music.

[istari_knight]

I still reckon its the relays - Have you tried tapping them with the plastic end of a screwdriver yet ?

[hoopsontoast]

Have a look out for the Denon PMA-1500ae (~£300) and PMA-2000ae(£500), had the 2000ae and its a cracking bit of kit in the similar vein to the Sony TA-F770ES, excellent Phono stage too.
The Restek Challenger would also be a good choice, no Phono but generally go for around £250-£300.

[Gromit]

Bit cheeky then mate :rolleyes: I had it in my watched list too . Always fancied a listen to a Sony ES amp . Have to say though I'm very happy with my Rega Brio R / Rega DAC / Rega EL8 combination. It just plays music.

Hi Brian - I've contacted the seller, will see what comes back. :)

Thanks for the tips Rob - I'll check those out. :) I see the Yamaha A-S500 gets good feedback too, and can be bought new. That doesn't really appeal though as I'd rather go used. An Exposure Super XV would've been very nice too, shame I missed one on eBay only a week or 2 ago, went for £250. A stone bargain if there ever was one.

James - I'll have the top off the amp tomorrow and give the relays a tap. From listening to the amp today at a reasonably high setting (and it behaving itself) I think the relays could well be it - it's as though there needs to be a fair bit of current going through them to settle them down? Sorry for appearing a bit electro-thick but it's all I can really think of! :D

[brian2957]

Good luck . Can I also suggest you get yourself a can of Deoxit or the like and give the switches a bit of a spray . I once had a old Rotel with a dodgy volume control and a spray with Deoxit cured the problem. Also works wonders on phono sockets and plugs.

[Gromit]

Good luck . Can I also suggest you get yourself a can of Deoxit or the like and give the switches a bit of a spray . I once had a old Rotel with a dodgy volume control and a spray with Deoxit cured the problem. Also works wonders on phono sockets and plugs.

It's got to be worth a go. :)

[istari_knight]

James - I'll have the top off the amp tomorrow and give the relays a tap. From listening to the amp today at a reasonably high setting (and it behaving itself) I think the relays could well be it - it's as though there needs to be a fair bit of current going through them to settle them down? Sorry for appearing a bit electro-thick but it's all I can really think of! :D

In that case I'm certain it them.

Also, you wont be able to spray anything into the controls as they are sealed units so dust cannot get inside them... Any attempt at cleaning usually results in ruining the 'feel' of them - If you like silky smooth controls leave well alone !

[Gromit]

Thanks James for the really valuable advice. :)

Had the amp playing for 4 hours now at quite high volume whilst pottering around the house and it's behaved impeccably. To be honest the amp's done this, to a much lesser extent, since I bought it but it usually wouldn't misbehave for weeks. Only in the last fortnight or so has it really thrown a tantrum. When it's working it sounds just great and never shows signs of strain.

Means I can go looking for a new dac now, and possibly another cartridge for listening to classical music with. The Carbon's fantastic fun on rock/pop/jazz but it's rough'n'raw on orchestral. The joys of detachable headshells. :)

[Gromit]

Well, a bit of time has passed but a bit of a result in the process - tracked down a set of brand new speaker relays in Germany for 22 quid for the pair. :)

[brian2957]

Hope this fixes the amp Richard . Sounds like you've solved your Dac 'issue' too :)

[Gromit]

Hope this fixes the amp Richard . Sounds like you've solved your Dac 'issue' too :)

Thanks Brian :)

To be honest, the amp's been behaving fine this last week or 2 so was in no great rush to have it fixed. A friend of mine (who's a woodwind instrument restorer and also a wizard with a soldering iron) is going to fit the relays for me so I won't have to risk burning the house down/sending myself off to the next life in a cloud of smoke. :D

The dac sounds pretty good, nothing earth-shattering (which is perhaps not a bad thing) but clean & tidy.

[istari_knight]

Thanks Brian :)

To be honest, the amp's been behaving fine this last week or 2 so was in no great rush to have it fixed. A friend of mine (who's a woodwind instrument restorer and also a wizard with a soldering iron) is going to fit the relays for me so I won't have to risk burning the house down/sending myself off to the next life in a cloud of smoke. :D

The dac sounds pretty good, nothing earth-shattering (which is perhaps not a bad thing) but clean & tidy.

:thumbsup:

[hoopsontoast]

Good to know its back on track.

[Gromit]

Good to know its back on track.

Thanks Rob - looking that way, fingers crossed. :)

I love this amp, and would have been really miffed if it meant junking it (or just not knowing if it was going to have an 'off' day or not). I had been considering what to replace it with, but it's such a relative unknown in the grand scheme, it's hard to place it against other stuff. All I do know is that it was a clear improvement on the Claymore I had before, and that wasn't too shabby in itself.

[brian2957]

I know very little about electronics too , but you never know , these replacement parts may give you an improvement in SQ . I would also give the DAC a week or two to settle in . Pleased you've got someone to do repairs for you Richard. I have made friends with an AOS member who is an absolute wizard with computers . He built me a fantastic music server and maintains it for me , sometimes on a daily basis. It's good to have friends :)

[Gromit]

It's good to have friends :)

Amen to that, Brian. :)

This chap did his Masters Degree in acoustics (and he's a pretty good Clarinet player too) and does a fair bit of freelance sound engineering/recording. Interesting guy to talk to about stereo imagery/soundstage - we share a very similar view on these matters.

[Gromit]

Folks - can anyone please recommend a repair/tech guy in East Midlands (Lincs/Notts preferably or Derbys/S Yorks at a push) who could have a look at my Sony ES amp? Just a matter of replacing the speaker protection relays (I have the new parts) and perhaps giving the amp a quick once-over (check bias etc). Mainly just getting the relays done though.

Would send it down to Henry (toprepairman) at Leatherhead but the thing's so heavy it'd cost a fortune to get it there and back. My friend who was going to do the job for me before Scalford is unable to as he's just snowed-under with work at the moment (soldering bits into mate's amps isn't his first priority sadly!).

Thanks. :)

[Dingdong]

Folks - can anyone please recommend a repair/tech guy in East Midlands (Lincs/Notts preferably or Derbys/S Yorks at a push) who could have a look at my Sony ES amp? Just a matter of replacing the speaker protection relays (I have the new parts) and perhaps giving the amp a quick once-over (check bias etc). Mainly just getting the relays done though.

Would send it down to Henry (toprepairman) at Leatherhead but the thing's so heavy it'd cost a fortune to get it there and back. My friend who was going to do the job for me before Scalford is unable to as he's just snowed-under with work at the moment (soldering bits into mate's amps isn't his first priority sadly!).

Thanks. :)

If you just need a quick soldering job and a check over I should be free this next week.

[Gromit]

If you just need a quick soldering job and a check over I should be free this next week.

If you can, that'd be awesome Mark - I'm a tad busy next week, but very quiet the following week. If you did have time to take a peek at it some point before Scalford I'd be chuffed to bits.

If you would pm me your contact details that'd be great. :)

[Dingdong]

pm sent