Hi fi headphone belief turned on its head

[the engine]

by a pair of dinky little foldaway B&W p3's.
I only bought them as a present for the missus to use on the move.
I had to try them though obviously.
I plugged them into the musical fidelity HP1 headphones amp I use with my grado's or my Audio technica AD700's .....and proceeded to be totally blown to bits ! I always considered bigger to be better as far as drivers are concerned. But....
These diminuitive phones are better in just about every musical aspect than my so called ' hi fi' headphones.
I dug my old senny 650 's out ....same result. The 650s sounded sluggish ,the grado's sounded soft around the edges , and the AT's sounded light weight up to the B&W's
Apart from a possible slight loss at the very highest frequencies these little boogers are bloody great !
better comfort ...certainly than the grado's. Better build....certainly than the grado's...and most importantly better more natural 'real ' sounding than any of them.
The wife tried my grado's phones as a possible swap but even the £ 300 plus price tag didn't persuade her to swap
" Get yer own " basically.
Which is what I'm doing today.
I suppose the mobile market has upped the anti for makers of small headphones. But I didn't reckon they had got this good.
Anyway....just a headup .

[isuckedmandelsonslemons]

Surely they should be good. £170 a pair. Or have I got the wrong ones.

[Mike g]

Try the P5s- even better sound and more comfy

[southall-1998]

Sounds interesting! Are the P3s easy to drive headphones?

[Tim]

Just to add a further opinion to the mix, I agree the P5's are very good (not tried a pair of P3's) at what they are designed for, a portable pair of headphones designed to work from an iPhone but IMHO audiophile they are not. I do like them but against HD650's I found them to be in a different class. The B&W's are punchy and great for rock and pop, also very comfortable but they didn't oust my 650's. You do need a good amp to get the best out of the 650's, whereas the B&W phones are both under 35 Ω and can be driven by just about anything without too much trouble (the HD650 is 300 Ω), but I *personally* think they are no match for a properly driven Sennheiser. The DAC and amp can make a huge difference to the sound of the 650 and I found they work well with HRT which brings out more detail, pair the 650 incorrectly and they can sound too laid back. With the MF HP1 650's can at times sound uninspiring (at least they did when I tired them and I was very unimpressed) which seems to match your findings - there's more to it than just the headphones themselves.

However, what I will say is that the build quality is excellent on the P5 and comfort is superb, they would be great for air travel too and the P3 looks to be similar. I think I'll have to try some P3's now though, as you have piqued my curiosity :eyebrows:

I wonder what your findings would be comparing the P3 to the P5? Have you tried your 650's with many differing amp/DAC combos too?

This is an interesting comparison;

Sennheiser HD650 vs B&W P5 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/628694/sennheiser-hd650-vs-b-w-p5)

Different ears - different results ;)

[sq225917]

I thought the P5's were awful when i heard them, total boombox headphones.

[goraman]

I saw nothing but bad reviews on the P5's.
Here is a some what good review on the P3's.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-p3-stereo-headphone-review-dale

[the engine]

Yes I tried the P5's today and was quite disappointed.
The bass swamped the music and you wouldn't have believed they were made by the same company.
I'm using a Musical Fidelity HP1 can amp from a gyrodec and an ortofon 2M Black cart so it's a very revealing source and that in my opinion should give a pretty good test bed. Up to now though the B& W's are still stuffing the senny's. As you so correctly say though....that's only my opinion. ( Well and the wifes )
They ain't cheap though at £160......but worth .

[wee tee cee]

I find the 650s and MF HP1 work very well with the MF M1 DAC....Synergy?

[Tim]

I find the 650s and MF HP1 work very well with the MF M1 DAC....Synergy?
Aye, I think you're spot on there Tony and we all like different sounds too, just as we like different music. I'm going to have to hear some P3's now though, as I'm actually looking for a small compact pair of phones to use at the computer :eyebrows:

I hope I don't like them Ivor, as I was going to buy some AKG 450's which are 120 quid cheaper :doh:

[Tim]

I thought the HD650's didn't agree with you Tony - have they shaped up since you first bought them?

[the engine]

Hey mate don't blame me hahaha.
We all hear different.
hope ya do though .
Anyway happy xmas anyone xxxxxxx

[wee tee cee]

I thought the HD650's didn't agree with you Tony - have they shaped up since you first bought them?
I was really disappointed with them initially, had them back in their box a couple of times to move them on. In reality they need around 200hrs to really settle down and from my own perspective benefit from the inner foam filter being removed. I was sceptical regards the concepts of components and infrastructure burning in but this experience really educated me. The 650s are great all rounders that are often disparaged as being "vanilla". I cant help but think people haven't let them bed in long enough to let them open up properly.

[Tim]

The 650s are great all rounders that are often disparaged as being "vanilla". I cant help but think people haven't let them bed in long enough to let them open up properly.
Yup, I think I did say it takes awhile for them to open up. I had mine running 24/7 on a headamp for a few days before I even listened to them critically. Burn-in can vary greatly between components, but I think headphones in general really do benefit. When I first got my Rega DAC it was pretty dire, but after 100+ hours of use the sound started to mature and at over 200 it got to where it is now and I love it. I must admit when I first heard the Rega I wanted to throw it out the window :lol:

[wee tee cee]

Yup, I think I did say it takes awhile for them to open up. I had mine running 24/7 on a headamp for a few days before I even listened to them critically. Burn-in can vary greatly between components, but I think headphones in general really do benefit. When I first got my Rega DAC it was pretty dire, but after 100+ hours of use the sound started to mature and at over 200 it got to where it is now and I love it. I must admit when I first heard the Rega I wanted to throw it out the window :lol:I managed to get a home of the rega dac early on and was completely underwhelmed with it. I had a couple of the AOS troops over, one had brought a nicely run in example....I then realised what all the fuss was about!!!! Lovely organic, smooth and thoroughly enjoyable presentation. Like the 650s a lovely bit of hi fi for enjoying music with.

[Tim]

Indeed, straight out of the box the Rega DAC is nothing to write home about at all Tony - that rich, organic and natural presentation really comes into its own when you pair it with a Brio-R, beautiful sound. I have heard some very expensive gear over the last 2 years and do you know what, none if it sounded as musical to my ears compared to what I have now. Personal taste I know comes into it, but I have finally got exactly what I want from a music system and I'm chuffed to bits :D

[DSJR]

ooooh Tim, you and me are going to have fisty-cuffs 'ere... The Rega DAC works with loads of different amps I promise you :lol: but back to summat else that's cropped up here...

I bought some HD600's very cheap during a promotion and lull in production. I thought they were one-level and sooooo bland, totally at odds with what I remember them being. Turns out it was the Bryston preamp's headphone amp not having the juice to get 'em going. These were passed to a pal with a Rega EAR and he found them fine as a pair...

The thing is, so many headphone amps are hobbled in terms of output power for various reasons. I reckon that what you really need is a small or even normal unattenuated amplifier to directly drive them (my Crown D-60 drives the headphone socket directly from the speaker terminals with no resistors added at all, but there are gain pots on it to govern overall gain...

[Tim]

ooooh Tim, you and me are going to have fisty-cuffs 'ere... The Rega DAC works with loads of different amps I promise you :lol:
Why :scratch: I only said the two together work really well, which they do - admittedly I have only heard it with 4 other amps, but with the Brio-R it sounds superb - but it didn't mean it wouldn't be just as good with other amps. I've got Couple interconnects now too Dave, took me awhile to decide, but I have finally worked out I prefer them to the G2000HD, it was a close call mind you. Reckon that's more a synergy thing as the Mark Grants are fantastic cables.

[the engine]

UPDATE.......
After running in for 3 days with the radio on constantly constantly these cans have change beyond recognition !!
The bass has become somewhat obstructive and soft while the higher registers seem to have receded to the point of almost being subdued and difficult to focus on ..
In my experience most gear has to be well run in to give its real character but while this usually improves the item in this case it seems have been a backward step.
I'm a little embarassed for the initial euphoria expressed.....
I'm not half as happy now .
It seems the pair I tried initially had only had a couple of hours use , so It'll be interesting to see if they react in the same way ..


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[Stratmangler]

UPDATE.......
After running in for 3 days with the radio on constantly constantly these cans have change beyond recognition !!
The bass has become somewhat obstructive and soft while the higher registers seem to have receded to the point of almost being subdued and difficult to focus on ..
In my experience most gear has to be well run in to give its real character but while this usually improves the item in this case it seems have been a backward step.
I'm a little embarassed for the initial euphoria expressed.....
I'm not half as happy now .
It seems the pair I tried initially had only had a couple of hours use , so It'll be interesting to see if they react in the same way ..


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Give 'em time, give 'em much, much more time ;)

[Tim]

Give 'em time, give 'em much, much more time
At least 100 hours, maybe even 200 ;)

[goraman]

Not to hijack this thread but I just won these and plan to re cable them,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261138002938?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
Any suggestions for strain relief at the ear cup?
I needed a small closed portable set, and have done my home work Headfi rates these the best closed backs up to $400.00.
But they are a strong candidate for a re cable.

[wee tee cee]

At least 100 hours, maybe even 200 ;)I would give them at least 200 hours to settle down....be patient. It would be interesting to know how things pan out in time.....

[goraman]

I would give them at least 200 hours to settle down....be patient. It would be interesting to know how things pan out in time.....

Hook them up to a FM tuner and turn the tone control's for bass up slightly.
Turn the volume up to a level that wont hurt the drivers but give them a work out and let it go for 2 weeks non stop.
You can cover them with a big wool blanket if they are in an occupied room.

[wee tee cee]

Hook them up to a FM tuner and turn the tone control's for bass up slightly.
Turn the volume up to a level that wont hurt the drivers but give them a work out and let it go for 2 weeks non stop.
You can cover them with a big wool blanket if they are in an occupied room.Aye, that would work.......

[the engine]

ok....I'm on it .

[the engine]

Unbelievable !!
A week to warm these things up . Then a dramatic change. The highs are georgeous. Not a sign of sibilance. Once again they trounce my other phones and are now my prefered first choice. Strange how much they have changed but my love for them is back with a bang. Just shows though how audio equipment really does change from new. Makes a bit of a mockery of auditions in a way though.

[wee tee cee]

good to hear...glad they came good for you!