Jelco 750 + Dynavector 10x5

[worrasf]

So got the Dyna installed and setup - in terms of output it certainly doesn't need a SUT as the volume is the same as I was getting from the Rega carbon (as you'd expect).
I've not yet listened at length but the tracking is a bit of a disappointment on the test record. Even at the recommended max of 2.2g it only just tracks band 2 of HfN and need the bias at 3. The cart is perfectly setup using my MINT tractor and head shell bubble (set perfectly horizontal and azimuth is vertical).

Currently I am not using and fluid damping in the Jelco - would it improve matters if I did?

Steve

[vacdac]

Allo again Stephen,

That bias setting sounds a little high to me. as a rule of thumb, a bias setting of around 2 thirds the vtf seems about right for many arms. I'm also running a Jelly 750d & I have the bias set at around 1.4g for both my AT m.c.'s which I set at at 2.07g vtf & 1.5g for t' Rondo Red,@ 2.2g vtf.

Sounds like you have it set right re. lateral alignment using your protractor, unless your protractor aint right for the Jelcos geometry...doubtful as I thought the mint tractor is fairly universal, but perhaps worth checking.

One thought I do have, is whether it's perhaps worth having a play with vta adjustment & seeing whether there is a tracking sweet spot, as with some carts this can fall outside the intuitive/logical perfectly horizontal/flat vta setting that most of us will try first. My understanding is that in some cases with carts that the SRA (stylus Rake Angle) dictated by the angle of the cantilever is not always what it should be (poss. batch variance/QC issues etc,). You've prolly heard it yourself if you've experimented with vtf settings, when setting up carts, suddenly things just snap into focus.

BR.

C.

[worrasf]

Hi Chris
Yes I may play around with the SRA after listening for a while.
Looking on vinyl engine the mass and compliance of the Dyna should fall in the middle of the recommended range for resonant frequency without damping.

Steve

[DSJR]

Bias settings vary wildly depending on arm and sample of cartridge, let alone the different stylus profiles in use, so no need to worry on that score...

Many of the older design of moving coils, for various reasons, seem to be extremely overdamped and it's this that can give inferior tracking. Since many loud bits are on transients, which these pickups can handle, I wouldn't worry too much as test tones can set the whole cartridge and arm into resonances that wouldn't be found in music.

The 10XV should track most music signals without grinding your records to pieces so see if you enjoy what it does, or consider one of the better Rega arms, which work superbly with this cartridge I'm told ;)

[worrasf]

or consider one of the better Rega arms, which work superbly with this cartridge I'm told ;)

Get behind me satan :mad:

Steve

[DSJR]

Oh alright then :lol:

I don't know the high output Benz cartridges, but if precision tracing is your goal, may I honestly suggest a 2M bronze or 2M Black instead. Both should be happy in the Jelco and the Black should sound less cloudy and perhaps a little more delicate...

[worrasf]

Oh alright then :lol:

I don't know the high output Benz cartridges, but if precision tracing is your goal, may I honestly suggest a 2M bronze or 2M Black instead. Both should be happy in the Jelco and the Black should sound less cloudy and perhaps a little more delicate...

Indeed you may Dave but I'm going to go looney tunes and fit a Troika (complete with third hole) in the New Year. :mental:

Steve

[DSJR]

I don't think a troika would be happy in a Jelco, as I truly believe it needs summat better, and with a more solid headshell fixing than the old fashioned "SME" style. A new Troika sounded fab in an SME 309 for instance - less clanky and far more musical than in a mk1 Ekos for example (both on a late 80's LP12.....)

EsCo do amazingly sympathetic rebuilds on Troika's (and certainly the mechanically related Karma as well). Ask YNWOAN and Flatpopely for comments, as both have EsCo restored and rebuilt Troika's and I can vouch for the excellent sounds these cartridges have when properly rebuilt and updated..

[worrasf]

:drool:
I don't think a troika would be happy in a Jelco, as I truly believe it needs summat better, and with a more solid headshell fixing than the old fashioned "SME" style. A new Troika sounded fab in an SME 309 for instance - less clanky and far more musical than in a mk1 Ekos for example (both on a late 80's LP12.....)

EsCo do amazingly sympathetic rebuilds on Troika's (and certainly the mechanically related Karma as well). Ask YNWOAN and Flatpopely for comments, as both have EsCo restored and rebuilt Troika's and I can vouch for the excellent sounds these cartridges have when properly rebuilt and updated..

Thanks Dave - good advice - I shall ponder your words. If I'm not careful I'll end up going full circle and getting an LP12/Ittok/Troika again :doh:

So now I've got this Puresound SUT - what would be your recommendation for the best MC match to the Jelco - a Zu Audio DL-103 perhaps ? :drool:
Steve

[worrasf]

For a subjectivist I have long held onto my belief in the objectivity of the HfN test disc to setup cartridges and have angsted (like those of us with OCD are wont to do) when I could not get perfect tracking on the test tracks.
After getting lathered setting up the new 10x5 I just set it up by ear instead (like I should have done in the first place) 2.2 g bass too thick, 1.8 g a bit tizzy 2.0g :):)

Never mind that it wont track beyond babd 2 of HfN disc - it sounds wonderful - detailed and sparlky with tight bass and great PRaT :cool:

Steve

[vacdac]

Good move matey, bin it. Many of us are more than a little OCD, when it comes to cart/TT setup & indeed this can pay big dividends re SQ. Personally I don't use a test disk & ultimately let my ears be the arbiter. I am tho' confident in my cart set up abilities & perhaps they can be a useful aid for those less so.

BTW re your asking re the damping on the 750d. I do have a little dialled in (same setting for the Rondo & AT33EV) & felt it did add a further level of control & solidity to the sound of both these carts, with perhaps the biggest SQ gain being for the Rondo. Well worth experimenting with in any case, & I've yet to see how the AT F3iii responds as I've only tried this without damping so far.

In fairness I cannae really say if it improves tracking any really as this seems rock solid with all my carts.
For a subjectivist I have long held onto my belief in the objectivity of the HfN test disc to setup cartridges and have angsted (like those of us with OCD are wont to do) when I could not get perfect tracking on the test tracks.
After getting lathered setting up the new 10x5 I just set it up by ear instead (like I should have done in the first place) 2.2 g bass too thick, 1.8 g a bit tizzy 2.0g :):)

Never mind that it wont track beyond babd 2 of HfN disc - it sounds wonderful - detailed and sparlky with tight bass and great PRaT :cool:

Steve

[worrasf]

BTW re your asking re the damping on the 750d. I do have a little dialled in (same setting for the Rondo & AT33EV) & felt it did add a further level of control & solidity

Definite improvement after adding a bit of damping fluid - not only by the mark 1 ears test but also (yes I've still got it :eyebrows:) the HfN test disc.

Also found VTA is critical - raised the arm only a couple of mm to get the spirit level perfectly centred (arm perfectly horizontal) not just very nearly horizontal and SQ noticeably improved. Time to stop fiddling :mental:
Steve

[vacdac]

Nice one Steve,

Sounds like what we're both hearing corresponds nicely! Very worthwhile pointing out that you noticed an improvement to the tracking, since dialling in some damping on t' Jelly & making some vta adjustments. It's great that you've been able to test this Empirically using the test disc.

Yupp I agree those h/shell bubble levels are an essential for proper cart set up, more so if you have a detachable h/shell arm/can adjust for correct azimuth. I got a set of three of varying size from Benjamin @ DuoPhonic, when I bought my arm + some bits 'n bobs. Mine are the IsoKinetic ones & the diddy h/shell one weighs 0.24g, so won't overload a carts suspension....utter bargain @ only £7-99.

I'll admit yer've got me thinkin' now, as I record a lot of vinyl using my Alva Nanoface (pro-audio interface) & VinylStudio (SW) & I'm thinking doing some needle drops using the test disc when setting up a cart would be a good way of making comparisons to any setup changes.

I'm sure as we've already both alluded, with enough experience ears are prolly good enough for this.:D Truth is I'm prolly geeky enough as it is & mebbe it's best not to get me started!:eyebrows: Nonetheless now the seed has been planted I expect I'll end up trying this....at some point.:rolleyes::D

B.R.

Chris.:)

Definite improvement after adding a bit of damping fluid - not only by the mark 1 ears test but also (yes I've still got it :eyebrows:) the HfN test disc.

Also found VTA is critical - raised the arm only a couple of mm to get the spirit level perfectly centred (arm perfectly horizontal) not just very nearly horizontal and SQ noticeably improved. Time to stop fiddling :mental:
Steve