Tips for a vintage Thorens TD-160?

[ppat2]

I've just purchased a vintage Thorens TD-160. Mostly to tinker with and see if I can make a project of it and use it as my second turntable. Still waiting for the turntable to arrive from the seller.

I'm a huge music lover, have collected gear for 35 years and music even longer, and have a good sized vinyl collection. Current turntable is the new model Thorens TD-160 HD.

Looking for any advice here from the experts to some questions below, and any other tips/suggestions anyone cares to share. I am completely new to attempting this type of project. I've mounted tonearms and cartridges and set them up for first time use, but that's the extent of it.

I have also included a link to the ad on Canuck Audio Mart if anyone wants to look at the deck purchased. It is very nice condition, hoping it arrives the same way....

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649031771-thorens_td160

1. Suitable modern cartridge to purchase for this that would not be overkill? I am using NAD C275BEE amp, NAD C165BEE preamp, Proac Response D Two Speakers, and Clearaudio Basic Plus with Accu+ phonostage. I also have a Lehmann Black Cube Statement phonostage that is used with my second turntable, but the Clearaudio is all around much better.

2. Thoughts on rewiring the tonearm in the 160?

3. Same question but in relation to rewiring the RCA outputs so that I can use removable analog cables?

4. Can it be safely be used with my Clearaudio Basic Plus and Accu+ power supply phonostage, meaning no electrical mismatch expected in relation to ouput signal from the 160 and input into the Clearaudio phonostage?

5. Is there anything I need to be concerned about in terms of other electrical specs and power connections? I thought I read a post where it said to use some type of killswitch or power interrupt or such in the power chain when working on an old deck like this?

6. Any other tips regarding other mods or tweaks are highly welcomed.

Thanks in advance for your insights.

[AlfaGTV]

While i dont have answers for all of your questions i do quite like the TP-16 tone arm. I believe it is quite underrated and works very well with, say, an Ortofon 2M Blue or similar.
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/TD125MkII_2.jpg

My old TD-125 MkII had the same arm and did sound quite nice with the Ortofon.
I dont believe in rewiring the internal wires, but i could imagine a nice RCA external cable will improve things. Or, like you suggest, trying terminating the internal wiring with rca-plugs.

However, the deck looked absolutely stunning and if i was you, i'd try very hard to maintain it's beautiful stand and originality!


Regards //Mike

[phonomac]

Hell there,
You might like to look at SRM-Tech's range of goodies for Thorens

http://www.srm-tech.co.uk/shop/category_9/Thorens.html

and they also sell some other general accessories as well.

No affiliation, just a satisfied customer. I used to run a TD160 with their 'Ultimate Thorens Enhancement Kit', and the parts in that lifted the table a long way. I think the TD160 is a good table anyway, and many of the upgrades you could incorporate without changing the original appearance if that is important to you.

regards

Angus

[The Grand Wazoo]

If the springs still have foam inserts in the them, whip 'em out pronto.
Decent baseboard of thick ply.
Take a lot of care over setting the suspension and make sure it's right - 'that'll do' won't do!

[DSJR]

First, either make a 20" open frame in which to nestle the deck while servicing it, or do the cheapskate version like me, get some tall jars to stand the plinth on, making it possible to reach underneath to set the suspension.

The foam can be removed from the springs without removing them - use some fine long-nosed pliers to hooch the foam out. if the springs are disturbed, you'll spend hours getting a proper bounce along with correct centring (early 160's didn't have the holes in the topplate and sub-chassis and an amateur will take ages of frustrated twiddling to get it right. The 160's I remember had cam-shaped washers under the bottom grommets which helps centring, but you'll need to keep the levelling nuts still while adjusting these.

The main bearing varied from year to year. I've identified at least two types but Andr'e seems to think there's more.. The oil Thorens used was a turbine oil, although I've used EP80 with NO ill ellects or messing with the bearing shaft. I use as much as the bearing will take (a good few drops to a fair bit more depending on sample) and this works well.

GET A NEW THORENS BELT and replace it regularly :)

Got to go for now, but don't despair on the arm and wiring. there's an article on VE about removing the deadshell socket locking pin to enable re-wire.. The chassis is connected to one of the signal screens and this link should be cut and a separate earth wire taken out... The arm can be finely adjusted for minimal bearing slop and once fettled, can perform really well...

[Rare Bird]

I think if your prepared to do the No.4 route i would recommend a new arm.

[ppat2]

Wow, these are great tips and suggestions guys.

I am inclined for the start to just get it working properly, new belt, based leveled etc and just use the deck to see how it is. Then move onto cartridge.

So many tweaks are possible, but going to take it slow and do this incrementally. Not rushed, and quite looking forward to just experiencing the vintage audio.

Certainly do welcome other ideas though. Fascinating stuff and have always had the tinkering bug whether with automobiles, woodworking, and now onto my first steps with a turntable.

[loo]

Hi Paul
nice looking Thorens you have there.
I would recommend buying a kit from Joel Boutreux ,he usually has a listing on ebay .Joel is a thorens expert having worked for them and supplies the correct oils for the motor and bearing and supplies a new belt for your specific model (very important to have the correct belt) at a very resonable price.
regards loo

[OneyedK]

I would recommend buying a kit from Joel Boutreux
+1

The arm only needs a rewire when the contacts between the headshell and the arm are worn. I still think it's a great arm.

I tried my DL-110 on my TD160 and it's a great match (used a small headshell spacer to compensate VTA), that is, if you like it's sound. I keep my 681SE (low compliance version of the 681, 12cu) on it for now, I like that Stanton sound on the TD160.

@AlfaGTV: how did you manage to fit the Ortofon 2M to the headshell?!
Must have been rather difficult!
I have to say, a 2M series in a 16g arm on a sprung deck is a strange combo to me :scratch:

[AlfaGTV]

Mounting carts with threads is no biggie on the TP-16! After carefully removing the separate headshell and dismounting the current cartridge, simply heat the Thorens-badge and carefully push it loose from the underside. When that is done you are free to remove the threaded thingy and instead insert your screws from above! :)
The badge usually is so sticky you only need to attach it where it were. If it's reluctant, add a very small amount of troll-goo... (Blue-Tac will also do) :ner:

And yes, you may think the 2M would be a bit too compliant, but it worked very well for me.

Regards //Mike

[DSJR]

That arm IS GOOD SOUNDING and will happily work with modern fixed coil pickups tracking at 1.5 to 2 grammes. The bearings can have some slop in them, but they are easily adjusted once the screw covers are removed, but take care, as a fraction too much and they lock up. Just to say that the wires that SHOULD be changed are the exit wires to the amp, but add an extra earth wire to the amp and remove the little link from chassis pin to a signal screen on the tag strip underneath...

[ppat2]

Thanks Angus, Mike, Loo and everyone else for all the feedback.

The seller has proven to be very helpful and knowledgeable, and has more than 1 Thorens for his personal use.

He has advised me that the Shure cartridge and stylus are in good shape, and the tonearm and cartridge are aligned and everything working. I am still waiting for delivery, should be here in 3-4 days.

He has suggested I first just set it up on some replacement isolation feet, make sure it is level, and then replace the underside cover/shelf with MDF or suitable to deaden some of the deck resonance, and leave it like that for a while and just use the deck. Then move onto other updates after I have a better idea what the basic deck sounds like and how it reacts to substitute isolation feet and the upgraded underside. Sounds like a good safe approach.

It turns out there is a Thorens distributor only 20 minutes drive from where I live, so I can contact them for replacement belt or other parts they might have access to should I need them.

So now just waiting, and reading up on all the information in the links I've been provided to Thorens information on the web.

Thanks again. I'll update this thread once I have the deck setup and give it a try.

[The Grand Wazoo]

He gave you good advice about taking it slowly, but not about the mdf..........use some thick plywood.

[ppat2]

The TD160 arrived today, and is already plugged in and playing. The cartridge is set to 1.25 G. The cartridge is the Shure M91ED.

Have played a couple of albums now, and extremely surprised at how good this sounds. I was not expecting it to sound this lively, clear, and dynamic. Especiallly with a very old stylus, and nothing done other than to clean up the prongs on the AC cord and the ends of the RCA cables with some dexoit gold electrical cleaner. The deck is not even perfectly level at this point.

I can only imagine what it will sound like once it is level and I get a chance to experiment with isolation feet and later a different cartridge. Call me very pleasantly surprised. I did not expect it to sound so close in quality to my new Thorens TD 160 HD.

I've attached a shot of the deck as it is currently setup. It is sitting where my new deck normally sits. I'll leave it there for the evening, and next weekend start to experiment with it in my other system.

[ppat2]

Would anyone know if a Goldring 1042 could be mounted on the TP16 tonearm on the Thorens TD160? I have a spare 1042, but do not really know if the mounting hardware will adapt to fit on the TP16 headshell.

I see the specs on the Goldring 1042 cartridge are not far off those of the Shure M91ED that is on the tonearm now.

GR = 6.5 MV, tracking 1.5 -2.5G, output 660 ohms mass 6.3
Shure = 5 MV, tracking 1.25G, 630 ohms mass 5.8

Thoughts anyone?

[AlfaGTV]

I can almost promise you it will fit just fine if it is a std 1/2 inch cart housing.
See last post on previous side... Use your spouse's hairdryer for carefully warming the badge and it will come loose, without bending.
Then you'll see for yourself. Only restriction: use non magnetic screws from above with quite flat heads...

Note! This is a non-destructive manouver, so dont worry... :)

Regards
//Mike

[DSJR]

An M91-ED is better in music making to a 1042 and my recommendation is to sell the Goldring and save for an SAS stylus for the 91-ED. The diamond on the 1042 is incomparably better I agree, but the leaden one-note quality of reproduction grates after a while to me........

For whatever reason, the 91-ED sounded better to me than the otherwise identical? M75-ED. I have no idea why, but we sold many run-out Dual 1229's which came with the 91-ED pre-fitted. I compared the two Shures directly on many occasions around this time (1975-6 or so ) and the 91-ED won out each time.

If the deck is sounding good as-is, PLEASE avoid the need to twiddle. Checking the belt is a MUST on these decks, as the rubber is soft and stretches over the years. The main way of knowing the belt needs replacement is when you cannot change speed to 45 any longer. With a new Thorens original belt fitted, check to see if this new belt runs in the guide fork without rubbing either face. easy to adjust the motor for correct tilt..

One final thing, a new mat... Thorens made the mat worse for record contact on these models before they made them better with the 160-Super style heavier mat. Well worth checking out a heavier rubber type, or even the vintage TD124/150mk1 mat...

[ppat2]

Thanks Mike and David for the feedback. David, your feedback is especially valuable as I have no familiarity with older model cartridges. I have heard some good things about the Shure M91ED, but did not know it was highly regarded. Even with old cartridge and stylus, it still sounds very good.

Any idea what an SAS stylus for this cartridge would cost, and is it simple to replace yourself, or does it require special skills/tools?

I'll check the local hi-fi shops and Canuck Audio Mart locally to see if anyone has one they can part with.

You are correct about the mat and ringing. I have today mounted the cork mat on it that comes with my newer model TD-160 HD, and that reduced some ringing. I am finding that different feet under the table make quite a difference too.

It seems some of the ringing also dissipated when I turned the tracking dial all the way to zero, and used only the counter weight with my digital gauge to set it to 1.25. Previous to this I had the tracking dial set to 1.25 and also checked with the digital gauge. Another forum member had suggested this as they believed using the tracking dial adds some drag on the TP16 arm.

I am a little confused about the image/settings on the anti skating dial, but I'll play with that to see if it affects the sound.

I hope to have an original replacement belt next week as there is a distributor locally who carries the Thorens branded belt.

[DSJR]

The tracking weight is dialled in via a spring arrangement, and it was only just accurate enough at low weight settings, so if you find it's better "just" to use the counterweight alone, go for it :)

The suspension MUST be free in all planes and even with damping sponges in situ, should still have a good vertical bounce. If you chose to remove the sponge, it can be done with long-nosed pliers without removing the springs themselves. As for supports, one of the cost-cutting things was a plain box frame with little in the way (i.e. nothing) of re-inforcement, something Linn took pains to fix in the mid 80's on their far better (to start with) solid hardwood plinths. The MDF? baseboard as fitted to the "Super" version really did help here, although blac-tacking what you have to a slate/granite/corian slab (or possibly blockboard or thick ply even) will help no end. The top plate screws (one at each corner under little caps) must be formly tightened too as these will have loosened a bit over time.

Re the mat. My suggestion is to keep the Thorens mat and 45rpm adaptor there intact and fit the cork on top. Hopefully, the spindle will be long enough to position the record still if the cork's not too thick...

P.S. the SAS stylus is available directly from Jico in Japan, although a US distributor also markets them I believe (can't remember which one though). The yellow stylus assembly just pulls out from the body (best to carefully remove the headshell to do this) and the replacement slides in as far as it will go - just be careful to locate it right first before sliding in :eyebrows:

[ppat2]

Hi David,

After weighing some immediate options, I decided to take your advice and purchase the SAS stylus to match the M91ED cartridge. With taxes and shipping it comes in at ~$200, not too bad. My Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood for my newer deck was ~$800, so this is a bargain in comparison.

That should do things for a while. I still plan to change the bottom plate on the deck; that will be next, maybe a project for over Christmas break. A new belt is on the way also.

After that, just see how it sounds. Considering how good it sounds now, I think these should result in a pretty nice sounding deck.

Other future changes TBD....

[ppat2]

Hi David,

After weighing some immediate options, I decided to take your advice and purchase the SAS stylus to match the M91ED cartridge. With taxes and shipping it comes in at ~$200, not too bad. My Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood for my newer deck was ~$800, so this is a bargain in comparison.

That should do things for a while. I still plan to change the bottom plate on the deck; that will be next, maybe a project for over Christmas break. A new belt is on the way also.

After that, just see how it sounds. Considering how good it sounds now, I think these should result in a pretty nice sounding deck.

Other future changes TBD....

[DSJR]

Shures appear to use a mixture of mechanical resonances and coil resistance/inductance to bolster up the high frequency response so any after-market stylus is going to alter the compromises a bit. Jico do seem to have worked very hard, especially with the SAS tips, to at least equal the performance of the originals, and it seems they may also better them, judging by the smoother yet lively hf they produce on the V15 series at any rate. I wish you well, but a replacement BELT is mandatory (must be a proper one as the rubber compound is different to many of the pattern ones I've tries in past years).

[ppat2]

Well, I now have a new Thorens branded belt for the deck, and this strangely made some audible improvement. Not sure why, as the speed of the table is still the same and bang on 33 RPM.

After installing and testing out the new belt, I noticed that the cartridge azimuth was also off. That is corrected now, and that made a nice improvement too. Good thing I noticed this before the new stylus arrives.

I've also checked the tonearm and cartridge alignment using the baerwald alignment for Thorens, and happy to learn that the seller had adjusted that bang on. I could not have done a better job myself.

This deck is sounding very good, now to see how it sounds when the new stylus arrives.

For anyone interested, here is a link to a fellow here in British Columbia, only 1 hour drive from my home, that makes custom plinths for Thorens and other decks. The link is to a photo of one of his plinths. Maybe later I'll move to something like this if I decide to mod the deck.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/view_userimages.php?user_id=40274&image_id=8573

[The Grand Wazoo]

It looks like you're well on the way to a great sounding TT, Paul. Well done. That plinth that the Denon deck is in looks absolutely sumptuous.

[ppat2]

Well, I was surprised to receive my Jico SAS stylus today on Christmas Eve. This is the 192-91ED stylus for the Shure M91ED cartridge.

It is mounted now, and for a first spin I've put on my original copy of Jeff Beck "Wired" which has some pretty extreme high frequencies on Beck's playing, and I am amazed at the detail. There is no roll-off on the high's and no peaks or sharpness. Just a wealth of detail and a richness to the tone of the guitar. The bass notes are detailed and tight, but have depth too. The bass already sounds better than previous. Separation is very good as well.

With the old stylus, this album had some moments of piercing high frequencies, I guess due to stylus wear but perhaps the SAS replacement is just that much better? Sounds that way now, and this is only the first album. I expect it will sound even better after a few spins.

Previous to mounting the new stylus, I had also experimented with isolation feet, and what is working best right now are 4 Black Diamond Racing cones (MK3) attached to the bottom of the deck with a little blu-tack, so the cones point down.

I tried a bunch of other isolation feet that I have including some quite expensive ones (Nordost BC Sort Kones, others....) but the BDR cones worked best in this application. Later when I get a chance to replace the bottom plate on the deck, the feet might change to a different model.

Sounding pretty good right. Going to burn a bunch of vinyl to my PC hard drive before turning the lights out, and then get ready for Christmas Day.

Merry Christmas everyone on AOS!

[DSJR]

I have never read a bad word for the SAS Shure replacement styli. They seem to take all models to a higher and better level - not so difficult as most older Shure diamonds were little more than polished coal - dirty when looking through them and not always well shaped either...

I've found that the generic 91-ED stylus I'm using in the Zero 100 is lower compliance than the originals and as the diamond is a goodie, I'm using it at 1.5g with no issues at all (not sure where this stylus emanates from, but the painted dot on the cantilever looks rather Jico-like).