View Full Version : Flirting with the prince of darkness
It's a long long time since I used a MC in my vinyl setup (LP12/Ittok/Troika) and I am an ardent supporter of the MM into my Croft preamps.
However, I have decided to have a play with the dark side and bought a low hours Dynavector 10x5 and my lovely wife has just bought me a Puresound T10 MkII SUT for christmas (ebay bargain at £200) :christmas:
So by Christmas day I will have gone from no possibility of using MC's to the world is my oyster sort of thing.
Question - will the 10x5 benefit from going via the SUT or being high output better going straight into Glenn's most excellent phono stage?
Steve
Question - will the 10x5 benefit from going via the SUT or being high output better going straight into Glenn's most excellent phono stage?
The Dynavector 10x5 has to be connected straight to the MM phonostage.
All HOMC's have to be connected straint into an MM input.
Thanks Karl - very helpful.
So now I can cast around in the New Year for a low output MC to go into the SUT? Talk about arse about face:rolleyes:
Steve
So now I can cast around in the New Year for a low output MC to go into the SUT?
What else would we do in the New Year :lol:
A little side question. The 10x5 is for the Jelco? The arm seems a bit on the heavy side for it.
But on the Technics, it might not matter much...
What else would we do in the New Year :lol:
A little side question. The 10x5 is for the Jelco? The arm seems a bit on the heavy side for it.
But on the Technics, it might not matter much...
I think it should be OK - from memory the Dyno compliance is about 11 - its high compliant carts it falls over on. Ive got an AKG P8ES Supernova and a Sonus Blue Gold both about compliance of 50 - they are OK in my 3009 II but not the Jelco.
Steve
from memory the Dyno compliance is about 11
Yup, specs say 12, @100Hz...
We need Barry up here ;)
Compliance @10Hz is 1.5-2 times higher...
hifi_dave
06-12-2012, 18:07
The Dynavector is a high output MC and will work straight into the MM input of your amp - no need for a step-up or x'mer.
However, they do sometimes sound very good into a MC input, if the phono stage has sufficient overload margin.
The 10X works fine in the Jelco.
Thanks Dave
Now that I have a decent SUT ( well on Christmas day) I may well be in the market for a LO MC for the Jelco in the New Year - keep me in mind if you have anything appropriate in your New Year sale :)
Steve
hifi_dave
06-12-2012, 18:25
Any/everything is possible. E-mail me with your Christmas wish list and I'll see what I can
The 10XV has many fans, but am I the only one to find it a bit dull and grainy? Yep, I though so ;) I'd better get my ears looked at again :)
The 10XV has many fans, but am I the only one to find it a bit dull and grainy? Yep, I though so ;) I'd better get my ears looked at again :)
Bloody hell Dave - I hate to think what you think of the Ortfon Rohman :eek: please don't tell me you find it bouncy and the last word in PRaT :lol:
Steve
Don't be too hard on yourself Stephen....exploring new avenues & even revisiting older ones can be a minefield. At least you'll be able to explore both flavours of mc cart, when you do add an l.o.m.c. & as you have a removable h/shell Jelly arm on your techie cart swaps are gonna be a breeze. Is t' SME arm on your other deck the removable h/shell variant?
Many peeps seem to rate the Dyna 10x5 & ultimately having a nice selection of decent carts is never a bad thing IMV. Prolly well worth starting a thread re which l.o.m.c.'s work well into your T10 step up & the Croft mm stage.
If there's any suggestion it may be suitable, then I've recently been v pleasantly surprised at how good the Orto Rondo Red works with the Jelco 750d arm. I'll admit I always found it a bit ho-hum in my previous Technoarm & it's been a revelation with the Jelco...no it's not as good as my AT33EV, but comes a lot closer than I expected. In my previous Technoarm I actually preferred my budget "Cracker" the AT F3 iii.
So I'd say that the Rondo may not be a great match with Rega arms, even souped up ones. It seems to respond nicely to a little damping being dialled in, as do all t'other l.om.c.'s I'm currently using, & so far I've found this to be my preference.
The Rondo woz £288 from Willy Thacker when I checked last week & seems a real bargain at that price & IME works well with my current Icon phono stage which has built in SUT's. The loading on this is fixed at 100 ohms, as Icon do not seem to believe in adjustable loading :rolleyes:, although I do get adjustable gain. Nonetheless my previous stage did offer adjustable loading & I found on this The 100 ohm loading option seemed to work best with the Rondo & AT oc9 ml ii.
I believe your T10 SUT does offer a choice of 2 loadings which are switchable on 2 Toggles (one for each channel) so you should at least have a fair bit of choice re suitable carts.
BR
Chris W.
Thanks Karl - very helpful.
So now I can cast around in the New Year for a low output MC to go into the SUT? Talk about arse about face:rolleyes:
Steve
Thanks Chris - my SME is the fixed headshell and its a real PITA to get the cart setup right - took yonks to get the AKG right - I've got a Sonus Blue Gold as the alternate for it.
Yes a piece on the T10/Croft sounds like a good idea.
I've got this crazy notion of trying a Troika in the Jelco with the removable headshell it should be possible to drill the third hole. I loved my old Troika.
:sofa:
Steve
Allo again Steve,
Does the Troika actually need the third central fixing? I'm just wondering whether it would work just as happily with the two which most carts seem to manage happily with. To my mind having a nice range of lateral movement possible when setting up a cart is generally a good thing, particularly if you want to swap between your 2 decks. I'm sure I've seen Japanese H/shells that also have a central slot....ADC possibly.
Do you still have the troika?
Do you still have the troika?
No I wish I did - sold it with the LP12/ittok - probably the sale I regret most :wah:
It probably would work with just 2 bolts but I remember Ivor getting very worked up over the benefit of 3 - you know Ivor - tighten till its very tight then a bit more :D
I use a Mint Tractor for the Techy so likely as not would need a tad of toe in but once set on 2 bolts I can take the headshell off and drill the third - what could possibly go wrong :eek:
Steve
Lol Steve fair enough....as yo say if you mark it carefully & take care all should be fine. It's not as if it would render the h/shell unusable with standard fixing carts in the future.
Shame re the Troika...woz wondrin' whether an ESCO/Northwest Analogue or Soundsmith re-build might have been an option.
Tooodles anyway Fella...nice to chat to Yer!:)
chris ooooooooot.:D
The Dynavector is a high output MC and will work straight into the MM input of your amp - no need for a step-up or x'mer.
However, they do sometimes sound very good into a MC input, if the phono stage has sufficient overload margin.
The 10X works fine in the Jelco.
As per Dave, while I'm not familiar with the Dyna, my DL110 sounds better into Naim MC cards than the MM variants. When I fed it into the Croft MM stage it sounded (much) better than the Naim MC cards, but displayed some of the loss of dynamics I associated with Naim MM cards. I've just taken delivery of some BD SUTs, primarily for my Asaka, but as the have dual primaries (allowing reduced gain) I will also be trying it with DL110 to see what difference it makes.
Basically, a long winded way of saying try it, you won't damage anything (it will just sound distorted if you overload the MM stage, so keep volume low initially). What ratio step up is the T10?
Richard
jandl100
07-12-2012, 10:10
The 10XV has many fans, but am I the only one to find it a bit dull and grainy? Yep, I though so ;) I'd better get my ears looked at again :)
Dull & grainy? :wowzer:
It's my fave in the Dyna range I have tried so far - DV23RS, 17D2 & 3, XX1L ...
In my view, the 10X5 is tonally pure and nicely lit, with a full and fruity bass and a lovely lively dynamic bounce to the sound. :thumbsup:
Ha ha - we differ yet again, Dave! :cool:
What ratio step up is the T10?
Richard
1:36, switchable to 1:18 whatever that means :rolleyes:
Steve
Try the 1:18 (means it steps the voltage up 18 times - in an impedance matched ideal world, which is rare :)).
Richard
Will do - that's the "Lo" setting I presume?
Steve
(it will just sound distorted if you overload the MM stage, so keep volume low initially). Richard
I always have the option of using 5963 valves (got a quad of JAN Philips 5963's) instead on ecc83's if I need to reduce the gain a bit - mind you it's taken me yonks to finally settle on what's in at the moment (1950's Mazda ecc83, 1960's Tungsram BH7A, 1950's Seimens and Halske 12ax7) so I'sd be loathe to change.
Steve
Will be interesting to see your thoughts - but you won't be trying before Christmas? I hope to have tried my 1:15 SUTs before then with my dl110, also into a Croft mm stage (but a vintage one). Don't know the specs of ur Dyna, but if similar to the Denon then I'll let you know. I suspect it will be fine with 83s, and hope it sounds a lot better with SUT than without!
Richard
but you won't be trying before Christmas?
Richard
No got to wait for Santa to bring the SUT :christmas:
Unlike when I was a kid and parents bought me a scalextric car (white Honda F1) - used to get it down off the top of their wardrobe and run it in while they were out so I could use it on max thrutch on Christmas morning :lol:
Steve
I would like to try the DL-110 with a 1:5 SUT, properly terminated...
Might get me a couple of Lundahl LL9226's ;)
But I'd think twice before trying something like a 1:15 or 1:18.
On the primary side, you will present the HOMC with an impedance that is way too low. (not a problem, but you change the character and response of the cart dramatically)
On the secondary side, you will present the phono stage with too much voltage, in the best case reducing the headroom of the préamp, in the worst case causing heaps of distortion...
Floyddroid
08-12-2012, 19:56
Virkon is yer man to talk to. He has the T10 into his Melody and uses STU's with it and it sounds the dogs.
I would like to try the DL-110 with a 1:5 SUT, properly terminated...
Might get me a couple of Lundahl LL9226's ;)
But I'd think twice before trying something like a 1:15 or 1:18.
On the primary side, you will present the HOMC with an impedance that is way too low. (not a problem, but you change the character and response of the cart dramatically)
On the secondary side, you will present the phono stage with too much voltage, in the best case reducing the headroom of the préamp, in the worst case causing heaps of distortion...
Thanks - I think the Dl110 is ~160 ohms? The SUT I have for my Asaka is 50 ohms 1:15, or 200 at 1:30. I tried a microphone SUT (very low primary impedance) previously with it & lost all bass, am I likely to see same now too do you think?
Richard
Any SUT of too low primary impedance can do that...
As ar rule of thumb, a 160Ohm cart likes to see a load 10x higher.
So we want a transformer that presents 1600 Ohm.
A 1:5 transformer with 47kOhm load will present the cart with 1880 Ohm, that's ok. If we load the secondary with an extra 270kOhm, we achieve the desired 1600 Ohm. It doesn't have to be that precise, but still, there's a big difference between loading a 160 Ohm cart with 200 Ohm (your 1:15 SUT) and the 1880 Ohm of the 1:5.
Experiments can be fun, but within reason :cool:
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